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Post by colfoley on May 22, 2017 23:41:00 GMT
One of the most fascinating, and ocassionally preplexing conversations on the Forums recently, well since the game came out, is the difference between Ryder and Shepard, and usually resulting in people choosing one side or the other shouting down any of the opposition, instead of, critically examining the issue before us and who knows maybe actually learning something from the whole process.
Now the general assumption on the forum from a lot of corners that Ryder is a weak do nothing submissive 'pussy' who can't really do anything while Shepard is an AR toting bad ass able to do bad ass things like...punch reporters in the face. Now, the truth, as it usually is, is a lot more nuanced then that. And, truthfully even after what I do today it will still come down to personal preference. Because in my mind, despite being team Ryder and really talking up Ryder...its close...really close. The two characters are awesome and it almost comes down to a flip of a coin which one you prefer.
Out of all the categories you could compare the two characters in the easiest, and most compelling, are their individual character (arcs) and their leadership abilities.
Shepard was a character who was given everything to them. They became a Spectre early in the first Mass Effect, circumventing an entire process to become Spectre, and had little development from that. I suppose one could argue that the ME 3 character 'development' counts as Shepard descends into misery and madness at the increasing death tolll...but good RPGs give the character the chance to reflect or even choose which direction this arc takes. ME 3 did not. Inspite of this all Shepard is super competent at their job. Able to get away with a lot of things in the MET on the simple basis that they are Commander Shepard. They are tough. No nonsense. And a military officer through and through. And despite the weakness of Shepard's arc in the games, Shepard is reasonably well defined. Though, it is worth noting that Shepard follows many of the genre tropes and cliches of an over powered player character, yet people sseem to like that sort of thing, explaining the popularity of people like Chuck Norris, Darth Vader, and Negan.
Ryder in contrast subverts this long established Trope. Yes they are given the keys to the car fairly early in the story. But they have no idea how to drive. They aren't respected by themselves or their peers. Alec Ryder made a very human choice in choosing Ryder to be the Pathfinder over Cora. But the Iniative did not trust them and Ryder had to prove themselves. Forcing them to grow as a character. Something they achieve, gradually over the course of the story. Furthermore, as has been argued, this character development is not owing to SAM but to their own personal will because even without the SAM connection Ryder manages to persevere and ultimatley prove themselves. Ryder's arc may not be the best BioWare has ever done, but it is an arc, and they showed an ability to learn and grow throughout their journey that frankly Shepard never managed...though more on that in a bit.
On this one I have to give the vote to Ryder. Ryder has frankly accomplished more from a very young age then Shepard, and they actually had to earn it. They had a well defined, though maybe it could have used more input of dialgue options from Ryder themselves, character arc that they went from a scared kid to a competent pathfinder. Unlike Shepard early in the game becoming a Spectre...and that was it...Ryder subverted tropes by having to earn the title of Pathfinder. And they managed to through the main story and side story content. However, it is worth noting that I give it to Ryder because I like character arcs, Shepard is an admitted bad ass and if that is what you want in a character...who am I to stop you?
Which brings us to leadership:
Ryder is an incredibly young character, at only 22 years old next to Shepards...29 I think?...means that Ryder lacked a certain amount of experience. However, given what Ryder achieved in MEA, they have a bright future ahead of them and I wonder how experienced and gritty they will be when they reach 29 years old and have 7 years of command experience under their belt, while Shepard was just getting started. However, Ryders leadership style is...generally speaking more stand offish. Quick note here: This could greatly depend on roleplay as well and I actually welcome different interpretations of the character. But Ryder, was a thinker and more dipplomatically minded. Afterall their job was chiefly to explore strange new worlds and not to conquer or defend them. Ryder wasn't a soldier, which actually provided more range of options in what Ryder could be as a leader. But, Ryder when pushed, demonstrated an ability to learn...applying previous lessons learned throughout the game, the story, and especially their father, into an actionable solution. Plus, they were able to effectively command a Remnant Fleet at the end. Actually using the ships and the resources available despite being severely outnumbered and out gunned. I likedn Ryders style more to a ship Captain. Someone who sees the big picture and knows how to execute and move entire units around, rather then individual people, or leading by example.
Whereas Shepard is more of a grunt, more of an onfield battle commander. Shepard leads by example. Shepard takes the hill. Shepard is actually more like an NCO or a competend Sergent Major then an actual officer. They are good in combat, good at leading men into battle on the surface of the planet. Good at small unit tactics and in the trenches warfare...but they really fall apart when pushed for strategic thought. When asked by the Admiralty in ME 3 'what is our plan' Shepard boldly declares 'we fight or we die...that's the plan'. While they are technically right, and while I don't blame them since they are just a Commander, with the mindset of a grunt, and they are being put on the spot by an ignorant group of Admirals...this has been pointed out rightly as horrible strategic advice. Later on in ME 3 when Shepard is 'commanding' the attack wing on Earth all they manage to shout out is a couple of mundane orders like 'standby' and 'attack'. It is clear most of the actual commanding was done by the individual fleet groups and ships and Shepard was just there in a ceremonial role, contrast that again to Ryder actually being able to effectively utilize a fleet.
Despite this all it is really hard to give a point to either of them. It just comes down to what we personally view in a Commander and what the situation calls for. If you want a Special Forces ground assault go with Shepard. If you want an actual command of a starship or a small fleet, go with Ryder. I liken it to being, to use an example from other Science Fiction, Shepard is more like Janeway while Ryder is more like Picard in their overall styles and demeanor, or, dare I say it, Ryder= John Sheridan?
Though as a funny aside if there was any sense in the world, age Ryder by a couple of years, and had the two of them been on the Normandy I could easily see Ryder being the CO while Shepard was the XO Ground pounder...at least until Ryder had to step aside from some silly contrived plot reason.
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Post by wickedtruth on May 23, 2017 1:00:43 GMT
ewww really? Janeway? Talk to some Navy boys about their thoughts on Janeway. She was a shit commander and should have been court marshaled as soon as she got back.
Shepard never was handed anything only 1 out of the 6 pregame history choices was remotely 'good'. and while Shepard was given the title of specter that was a political move and everyone thought Shepard would fail at it. It really was never a serious appointment, it was designed to shut the humans up and stop Shepard from being a nuisance by getting them off the citadel.
I also find it hysterical you compare Ryder to Piccard. Piccard had an aura of command around him Ryder dose not as evidenced by how the crew reacts to them.
basically at the end of the day Shepard was born to Lead and Succeed. Ryder was not and is learning as they go
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Post by colfoley on May 23, 2017 1:38:18 GMT
ewww really? Janeway? Talk to some Navy boys about their thoughts on Janeway. She was a shit commander and should have been court marshaled as soon as she got back. Shepard never was handed anything only 1 out of the 6 pregame history choices was remotely 'good'. and while Shepard was given the title of specter that was a political move and everyone thought Shepard would fail at it. It really was never a serious appointment, it was designed to shut the humans up and stop Shepard from being a nuisance by getting them off the citadel. I also find it hysterical you compare Ryder to Piccard. Piccard had an aura of command around him Ryder dose not as evidenced by how the crew reacts to them. basically at the end of the day Shepard was born to Lead and Succeed. Ryder was not and is learning as they go ...give Ryder 30 years or so and they'll.get there. The point is Picard is a diplomat and a thinker. Shepard is a doer.
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Post by zipzap2000 on May 23, 2017 2:03:58 GMT
The funny thing is Ryder appears to have bern written by a conflict resolution manual.
He also is using techniques that are subconsciously used to avoid confrontation.
Its weird.
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Post by colfoley on May 23, 2017 2:11:14 GMT
The funny thing is Ryder appears to have bern written by a conflict resolution manual. He also is using techniques that are subconsciously used to avoid confrontation. Its weird. My Ryder just told someone that the Nexus would consider something they were doing an act of war if they continued to pursue their agenda.... granted big talk coming from a little space station. I mean the more i play this game the more evidence I am finding that Ryder isn't a 'pussy'. He is just not super over the top about it. ...And also, so now avoiding conflict is a bad thing? Again Ryder is more diplomatic, or can be...at least they have the option...which traditionally is considered a good thing.
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Post by zipzap2000 on May 23, 2017 2:29:20 GMT
The funny thing is Ryder appears to have bern written by a conflict resolution manual. He also is using techniques that are subconsciously used to avoid confrontation. Its weird. My Ryder just told someone that the Nexus would consider something they were doing an act of war if they continued to pursue their agenda.... granted big talk coming from a little space station. I mean the more i play this game the more evidence I am finding that Ryder isn't a 'pussy'. He is just not super over the top about it. ...And also, so now avoiding conflict is a bad thing? Again Ryder is more diplomatic, or can be...at least they have the option...which traditionally is considered a good thing. Thats the point, we're playing a game, not actually attempting coflict resolution IRL. Hostage negotiator sounds like a great game. But if all you can do is negotiate and there is no point you can hand it over to SWAT, it becomes a repetitive game about avoiding outcomes. A dull one. Imagine if LA Noir had made it so you ALWAYS expose the bad guy in the interview. It loses depth instantly there has to be an alternate outcome in games with this much dialogue otherwise youre playing an interactive picture book. Its a bizarre choice for a character in a position of real authority in a game and the fear of conflict issues are likely something that crept in without them noticing. As I said, weird.
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Post by bizantura on May 23, 2017 6:25:07 GMT
I cringe by the comparison of Ryder with Sheridan and Picard. Not even close and the poor sod is assisted by the greatest idiot imaginable, Liam Costa, a master of a wreck and ruin and a traitor to boot! And no that idiot is not comparable with Michael Garibaldi nor William Riker.
None of the weak characters are comparable but with themselves.
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Post by wafflefrog on May 23, 2017 6:45:26 GMT
My Ryder just told someone that the Nexus would consider something they were doing an act of war if they continued to pursue their agenda.... granted big talk coming from a little space station. I mean the more i play this game the more evidence I am finding that Ryder isn't a 'pussy'. He is just not super over the top about it. ...And also, so now avoiding conflict is a bad thing? Again Ryder is more diplomatic, or can be...at least they have the option...which traditionally is considered a good thing. Thats the point, we're playing a game, not actually attempting coflict resolution IRL. Hostage negotiator sounds like a great game. But if all you can do is negotiate and there is no point you can hand it over to SWAT, it becomes a repetitive game about avoiding outcomes. A dull one. Imagine if LA Noir had made it so you ALWAYS expose the bad guy in the interview. It loses depth instantly there has to be an alternate outcome in games with this much dialogue otherwise youre playing an interactive picture book. Its a bizarre choice for a character in a position of real authority in a game and the fear of conflict issues are likely something that crept in without them noticing. As I said, weird. Not saying that you're wrong, but can you point out some instances where we couldn't choose to solve things in a violent way/use permanent conflict resolution? Playing as Sara, I don't remember an instance (that wasn't a meeting with the Archon or the Resistance) where I had to play as the hostage negotiator or couldn't "hand it over to swat". Even the one with the sick human, I went into that thinking that I'll pop a cap in her at a safe distance and didn't learn about the possibility to cure her until after she was already dead.
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Post by colfoley on May 23, 2017 10:17:43 GMT
I cringe by the comparison of Ryder with Sheridan and Picard. Not even close and the poor sod is assisted by the greatest idiot imaginable, Liam Costa, a master of a wreck and ruin and a traitor to boot! And no that idiot is not comparable with Michael Garibaldi nor William Riker. None of the weak characters are comparable but with themselve s. you will note i hope that i didn't compare any of the secondary Characters to anything else so that's a hell of a strawman. As to your other point the one thing Ryder lacks between those two characters is command presence and experience. And given the events of the game, and the tactics Ryder utilized at the end game being very Sheridan esque...he is already well on his way.
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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2017 13:12:01 GMT
I have very little to add to your post save that Shepard seems to be the same person, male or female, even when played as renegade and Paragon, but Ryder as a female seems more different than Ryder as a male. I think it might be deliberate. I felt the same with Hawke. It could be an artifact of RP'ing. Overall, male Ryder played as emo/casual is atm my favorite Scoundrel in the Galaxy. I am very attached to both Rene and para Shepards, and I feel that Ryder became the ideal "third personality" for me in the ME verse. It is more successful transition for me than 3 personalities of Hawke, where his purple clearly overshadowed green and red for me.
So, I suppose, Shepard and Ryder are not contestants, they are complimentary. Ryder is wily and slippery, and I like that.
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Post by Sah291 on May 23, 2017 14:06:52 GMT
I have to agree, and I think this is true of both BioWare's latest protagonists overall--Ryder and the Inquisitor. Both play out as more thoughtful and strategic characters, no matter how you RP them individually, compared to protagonists like Shepard and Hawke. Shepard struck me as much more of a survivalist type, someone very skilled on the battlefied and front line, able to think in the moment and react to situations. I picked the Earthborn/Sole survivor background for my canon Shepard, and this background combo really plays up these qualities a lot. Shepard was clever and street smart, not afraid of confrontation or violence, and capable of motivating people into action. But also kind of unpredictable and chaotic at times and not really book smart or a careful diplomat. But Shepard thrived in the sort of total war environment the trilogy set up, and was built for surviving in it.
Ryder, on the other hand, has to do some fighting, but is really made for the frontier, exploration, making first contact, and trying to establish a presence in the Helius cluster. You want someone who can fight when necessary, and lead, but you don't necessarily want a warlord for that job.
Incidentally, this is also why I chose Reyes and the Collective as an ally on Kadara over Sloane. I liked Sloane as a character but she sort of reminded me too much of my own Shepard, and I've got to agree with Reyes that she would probably bring war eventually. Reyes taking her out was kind of bittersweet in a way, like watching that old "Shepard" archetype being killed off symbolically. Haha.
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Post by toomanyclouds on May 23, 2017 15:10:50 GMT
You know, the problem I have with the Ryder Defense Squad is that the general assumption seems to be that people don't understand Ryder. No, Ryder is not a difficult character to understand as a video game hero. Thematically, Ryder is a perfectly standard Chosen One coming-of-age hero (whereas Shepard was just a Chosen One). I respect if someone is not tired of that story yet (I am very much), but I'm seriously confused how you would consider "mentor figure dies so young unprepared would-be hero has to prove himself in the role s/he was just thrust into with the help of a plot device (in this case SAM) to boost their raw powers" a subversion of a trope. That's like, every second fantasy book since LotR and every third SciFi story since Star Wars IV.
I think the general idea of Ryder as a "pussy" (I hate that description) is not a result from their role in the story. Obviously Ryder is also a huge badass who succeeds against impossible odds doing inhumanely awesome things, yada, yada, s/he is a main character in a Bioware game, that's par for the course. So far, the complainrs seem to come more from the fact that the writing didn't really give you huge tonal differences in the dialogue options in a series which usually allowed you to do that. And yes, I will defend that somewhat on the basis that a 22 year old non-military type probably wouldn't throw their weight around like someone with Shepard's credentials - but then I question why I was put in the shoes of such a character in a roleplaying game. The fact of the matter is, ME:A is the first game in the whole of Bioware's modern RPGs where you can't consistently play a character who uses an aggressive/abrasive tone (though Ryder can be pretty ruthless in their actual decisions - when the game feels like it). Every other ME and DA game gave you that option. It's not strange that the absence of said option would make people think of Ryder as, well, 50 Shades of Paragon. Ryder is different from their forebearers.
If you want a character arc for Shepard, you will have to make it. You can play a Paragon Shepard who slides into Renegade-ism over three games, or a human-first Renegade whose contact with other species in his teams softens him/her over the course of the story. For me, Shepard is a character with serious roleplaying potential (obviously within lines), whereas Ryder so far is more like playing Gerard from the Witcher 3. There are ways to influence their personality, but it's not, in the end, my character, it's a character Bioware pre-made and gave me to tweak within reasonable parameters. There's nothing wrong with that, a more defined character can absolutely head an RPG, but it's definitely a different approach from before. And for me - I just don't like that character. Which is fine, Bioware doesn't have to write characters I like. I'm just not used to the main character being so locked into their personality that they can be one of them.
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Post by Sah291 on May 23, 2017 16:07:57 GMT
I have disagree with the argument of Ryder being locked into paragon only tones though. I feel the game very much kept many of the renegade like tones--things like pragmatism over idealism, skepticism or realism over optimism, individualism or irreverence to authority figures, etc...many of these are buried in the logical and casual dialogue options. What they got rid of, was the overt aggressive "punch a reporter in the face" style of renegade actions, which is, in my opinion probably a good thing towards more nuanced storytelling. In this way, Ryder can come across more thoughtful or cunning, if not overtly badass.
I mean, the game has flaws, and I do prefer to play older protagonists these days...I'm older and coming of age stories don't do it for me quite the same anymore. But I thought the dialogue wheel was actually pretty good.
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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2017 16:16:19 GMT
You know, the problem I have with the Ryder Defense Squad is that the general assumption seems to be that people don't understand Ryder. No, Ryder is not a difficult character to understand as a video game hero. Thematically, Ryder is a perfectly standard Chosen One coming-of-age hero (whereas Shepard was just a Chosen One). I respect if someone is not tired of that story yet (I am very much), but I'm seriously confused how you would consider "mentor figure dies so young unprepared would-be hero has to prove himself in the role s/he was just thrust into with the help of a plot device (in this case SAM) to boost their raw powers" a subversion of a trope. That's like, every second fantasy book since LotR and every third SciFi story since Star Wars IV. I think the general idea of Ryder as a "pussy" (I hate that description) is not a result from their role in the story. Obviously Ryder is also a huge badass who succeeds against impossible odds doing inhumanely awesome things, yada, yada, s/he is a main character in a Bioware game, that's par for the course. So far, the complainrs seem to come more from the fact that the writing didn't really give you huge tonal differences in the dialogue options in a series which usually allowed you to do that. And yes, I will defend that somewhat on the basis that a 22 year old non-military type probably wouldn't throw their weight around like someone with Shepard's credentials - but then I question why I was put in the shoes of such a character in a roleplaying game. The fact of the matter is, ME:A is the first game in the whole of Bioware's modern RPGs where you can't consistently play a character who uses an aggressive/abrasive tone (though Ryder can be pretty ruthless in their actual decisions - when the game feels like it). Every other ME and DA game gave you that option. It's not strange that the absence of said option would make people think of Ryder as, well, 50 Shades of Paragon. Ryder is different from their forebearers. If you want a character arc for Shepard, you will have to make it. You can play a Paragon Shepard who slides into Renegade-ism over three games, or a human-first Renegade whose contact with other species in his teams softens him/her over the course of the story. For me, Shepard is a character with serious roleplaying potential (obviously within lines), whereas Ryder so far is more like playing Gerard from the Witcher 3. There are ways to influence their personality, but it's not, in the end, my character, it's a character Bioware pre-made and gave me to tweak within reasonable parameters. There's nothing wrong with that, a more defined character can absolutely head an RPG, but it's definitely a different approach from before. And for me - I just don't like that character. Which is fine, Bioware doesn't have to write characters I like. I'm just not used to the main character being so locked into their personality that they can be one of them. I have not noticed Inquisitor taking an angry/harsh tone either. He felt way milder to me than Ryder. An aggressive Hawke was not really your Shep-Renegade either. I mean, it's the character that in an act of anger... bloodlessly and quietly stabs his opponent in the back? I'd go into Siths in SWTOR to find characters as hard, open and not stupid about DS as Shepard is. I sure would love to play a more aggressive Inquisitor, but that hands-crossed-across-the-chest options are not really satisfying imo. I never felt that my Inquisitor did anything, but floated along with the story. Ryder feels more empowered to make choices in comparison.
I do want the truly DS options & ability to play hard and hardened char back, both in ME games and in DA4
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Post by Sah291 on May 23, 2017 16:29:28 GMT
I do want the truly DS options & ability to play hard and hardened char back, both in ME games and in DA4 I do too. But I see why they aren't, because it's harder to make dlc and sequels that account for the hero siding with the big bad/villian in the end. So they are going for the morally grey, but still generally the hero.
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Post by bizantura on May 23, 2017 16:31:06 GMT
I cringe by the comparison of Ryder with Sheridan and Picard. Not even close and the poor sod is assisted by the greatest idiot imaginable, Liam Costa, a master of a wreck and ruin and a traitor to boot! And no that idiot is not comparable with Michael Garibaldi nor William Riker. None of the weak characters are comparable but with themselve s. you will note i hope that i didn't compare any of the secondary Characters to anything else so that's a hell of a strawman. As to your other point the one thing Ryder lacks between those two characters is command presence and experience. And given the events of the game, and the tactics Ryder utilized at the end game being very Sheridan esque...he is already well on his way. I strongly disagree since I am not a movie fan by any stretch of the imagination. One of those oddballs that don't even own a TV. Babylon 5 is for me the holy grail of SF in this day and age in a movie form. So comparing flatlined cast of MEA to that of Babylon 5 simply hurts. Those people would not even survive a move to the moon, let alone Andromeda such a bunch of impaired weaklings. Ryder has no backbone, simply there to please anybody and everybody. He/she Ryder is a hail for socialism, Sheridan for individualism = big difference.
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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2017 16:37:06 GMT
I do want the truly DS options & ability to play hard and hardened char back, both in ME games and in DA4 I do too. But I see why they aren't, because it's harder to make dlc and sequels that account for the hero siding with the big bad/villian in the end. So they are going for the morally grey, but still generally the hero. Hilariously, I thought that's why they wanted to have DA franchise as a series of stories of different characters throughout the timeline in the same setting, but then they sold out on it, and started churning out the direct sequels and dragging the companions across instead of the PC. So, neither here, nor there.
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Post by Sah291 on May 23, 2017 16:49:24 GMT
I do too. But I see why they aren't, because it's harder to make dlc and sequels that account for the hero siding with the big bad/villian in the end. So they are going for the morally grey, but still generally the hero. Hilariously, I thought that's why they wanted to have DA franchise as a series of stories of different characters throughout the timeline in the same setting, but then they sold out on it, and started churning out the direct sequels and dragging the companions across instead of the PC. So, neither here, nor there. Yes I kind of wish at this point they would either make each DA game self contained, or just go ahead and bring back protagonists, when they are already brining back companions and ongoing plot threads. I want the Inquisitor back for DA4.
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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2017 17:03:49 GMT
Hilariously, I thought that's why they wanted to have DA franchise as a series of stories of different characters throughout the timeline in the same setting, but then they sold out on it, and started churning out the direct sequels and dragging the companions across instead of the PC. So, neither here, nor there. Yes I kind of wish at this point they would either make each DA game self contained, or just go ahead and bring back protagonists, when they are already brining back companions and ongoing plot threads. I want the Inquisitor back for DA4. I liked how they did it with DA:O and DA2, except imo they should have simply moved DA2 a few decades into the future. How the Warden stopped the Blight at that point would not have mattered. Hawke's adventure was perfect - it had an ending not really dependent on Hawke and opened to another move into whatever future.
But Inquisition... by scaling the conflict up to the world-shattering, DA4 that is not the Inquisitor's story AND not the last game in the franchise is hard to imagine. Because if we do not get the crucial choice during it about the fate of the realms that dramatically changes it in respect to the Veil, it's going to end in a disappointing junk. If there is a game that needs to be about truly Apocalyptic Choice, with a grandiose protagonist, it's DA4.
Some 50+ more hours of whether we support mages in their struggle with Templars or nod to Templars' wisdom or re-arranging power structure in Tevinter is not what I will find satisfying at this point.
I want a protagonist, the Warden, Inquisitor, Hawke or the New Magnificent Hero, who is powerful enough to wrestle with the Fen'Hariel and reshape Thedas. I want to be able to destroy the certain plot-armored characters. And the glorious The End w/o the question mark. I am Okay with DA5 moving in a far-off future if they want to make one. But this time period needs its resolution and the Real hero. Inquisition went epic, so there is no downscaling it back to local again.
Andromeda is a good set up in comparison, and can go many different directions imo in respect to Ryders or Definitely Not Ryders.
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Post by Sah291 on May 23, 2017 17:25:21 GMT
Yes I kind of wish at this point they would either make each DA game self contained, or just go ahead and bring back protagonists, when they are already brining back companions and ongoing plot threads. I want the Inquisitor back for DA4. I liked how they did it with DA:O and DA2, except imo they should have simply moved DA2 a few decades into the future. How the Warden stopped the Blight at that point would not have mattered. Hawke's adventure was perfect - it had an ending not really dependent on Hawke and opened to another move into whatever future.
But Inquisition... by scaling the conflict up to the world-shattering, DA4 that is not the Inquisitor's story AND not the last game in the franchise is hard to imagine. Because if we do not get the crucial choice during it about the fate of the realms that dramatically changes it in respect to the Veil, it's going to end in a disappointing junk. If there is a game that needs to be about truly Apocalyptic Choice, with a grandiose protagonist, it's DA4.
Some 50+ more hours of whether we support mages in their struggle with Templars or nod to Templars' wisdom or re-arranging power structure in Tevinter is not what I will find satisfying at this point.
I want a protagonist, the Warden, Inquisitor, Hawke or the New Magnificent Hero, who is powerful enough to wrestle with the Fen'Hariel and reshape Thedas. I want to be able to destroy the certain plot-armored characters. And the glorious The End w/o the question mark. I am Okay with DA5 moving in a far-off future if they want to make one. But this time period needs its resolution and the Real hero. Inquisition went epic, so there is no downscaling it back to local again.
Andromeda is a good set up in comparison, and can go many different directions imo in respect to Ryders or Definitely Not Ryders.
I agree, Andromeda ends similair to ME1, but without the world shattering imperative "the Reapers are coming" to write themselves into any corners with. There's still the big overarching mystery with the ancient races and machines, and the conspiracy with the Benefactor, but we have no idea yet if they will wind up being good, or evil, or what. It might turn out we could decide the Benefactor was right, and justified in their actions, and it wouldn't necessarily derail the rest of the story potential in Andromeda. And I definitely want to see the Veil come down in DA, but I think that is, sadly, highly unlikely to happen.
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Post by colfoley on May 23, 2017 18:51:39 GMT
Yes I kind of wish at this point they would either make each DA game self contained, or just go ahead and bring back protagonists, when they are already brining back companions and ongoing plot threads. I want the Inquisitor back for DA4. I liked how they did it with DA:O and DA2, except imo they should have simply moved DA2 a few decades into the future. How the Warden stopped the Blight at that point would not have mattered. Hawke's adventure was perfect - it had an ending not really dependent on Hawke and opened to another move into whatever future.
But Inquisition... by scaling the conflict up to the world-shattering, DA4 that is not the Inquisitor's story AND not the last game in the franchise is hard to imagine. Because if we do not get the crucial choice during it about the fate of the realms that dramatically changes it in respect to the Veil, it's going to end in a disappointing junk. If there is a game that needs to be about truly Apocalyptic Choice, with a grandiose protagonist, it's DA4.
Some 50+ more hours of whether we support mages in their struggle with Templars or nod to Templars' wisdom or re-arranging power structure in Tevinter is not what I will find satisfying at this point.
I want a protagonist, the Warden, Inquisitor, Hawke or the New Magnificent Hero, who is powerful enough to wrestle with the Fen'Hariel and reshape Thedas. I want to be able to destroy the certain plot-armored characters. And the glorious The End w/o the question mark. I am Okay with DA5 moving in a far-off future if they want to make one. But this time period needs its resolution and the Real hero. Inquisition went epic, so there is no downscaling it back to local again.
Andromeda is a good set up in comparison, and can go many different directions imo in respect to Ryders or Definitely Not Ryders.
i don't really know what is what but the obvious intention is to make da a five act story...whether or not it takes five games or not. Act 1: always about world building. Act 2: more about characters and introducing Major future conflicts. Act 3: escalating the conflict. Act 4: climax. Act 5: denouncement. So no. DA is not going local.
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Post by dmc1001 on May 23, 2017 19:33:48 GMT
I'd say, to the people who barely survived their arrival into the Heleus Cluster, that Ryder is a legend. They were basically all hopeless until s/he arrived on the scene, started activating vaults and then got Meridian up and running. The planets were all wastelands but now they were liveable. If that doesn't go down as legendary than I'm really at a loss for what does. Ryder is not the same as Shepard but still inspires most of the people who meet her/him. You get holdouts like Addison but she eventually came around - she had no choice because she'd look like a complete idiot if she stood against Ryder. Hell, even Sloane technically came around since she trusted Ryder enough to go with her to confront the Charlatan. If Ryder could reunite the AI, the Exiles and the krogan (while a salarian runs things to boot), that's amazing. Sure, SAM had to be used to access RemTech (until later, when SAM wasn't necessary) but it was still Ryder putting themselves out there to fight the good fight. It was Ryder's face everyone saw and Ryder's words everyone listened to.
Don't get me wrong. I love Shepard and really loved the Paragon/Renegade choices (though punching a reporter was on the lame side - a scathing retort works much better - despite the fact that I have often wanted to punch people in the face) but I know full well that Shepard has so much more latitude for what might be deemed acceptable behavior. Doesn't Shepard actually state at one point that he can legally kill everyone nearby in order to get required information? (Unless that was fanfic - I read tons of ME fanfic.) Shepard can shoot Finch, and even the turian from C-Sec finds that acceptable for a Spectre to do.
Ryder, in contrast, is trying to win hearts and minds because survival is paramount and reuniting factions is desirable, as is bringing a new one (the angara) into the fold. That requires more diplomacy and a gentler touch is helpful in that regard. Sloane tried the bullying tactics with her exiles but where did it get her? People being beaten in the streets, exiled to the wastelands of Kadara, and an entirely new faction rising up to challenge her. All around, looks like a fail. Hence, we know the "renegade" path won't work. These people just needed some hope.
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Post by LilTIM on May 23, 2017 21:34:39 GMT
How you deal with pirate slaver scum? Let's see how each protagonist does
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Post by vonuber on May 23, 2017 22:00:45 GMT
How you deal with pirate slaver scum? Let's see how each protagonist does Uh-huh. I prefer Ryder to Shep, she is a much better character to me. And I loved Femshep.
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Post by kenshen19 on May 23, 2017 22:24:58 GMT
To me the basic difference is Shep earned everything him/her gained, even Spectre status since they were already on their way to that title. Ryder on the other hand didn't do anything to earn their rank and I have wondered if he/she hadn't been infused with SAM to the point it would kill one or both if removed if they would have remained a pathfinder after reaching the Nexus. Also Shep always came off as a leader where to me Ryder is more of a peer or friend than a leader.
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