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Post by colfoley on May 23, 2017 23:06:33 GMT
To me the basic difference is Shep earned everything him/her gained, even Spectre status since they were already on their way to that title. Ryder on the other hand didn't do anything to earn their rank and I have wondered if he/she hadn't been infused with SAM to the point it would kill one or both if removed if they would have remained a pathfinder after reaching the Nexus. Also Shep always came off as a leader where to me Ryder is more of a peer or friend than a leader. Shepard did not earn the rank of Soectre how it was established Spectres earn their rank. He was given it wily nilly. Bioware violated their own lore...established just minutes before...to do so. And this was not the last time Bioware violated their own story...or common sense...in order to make shep a bad ass. And yes Ryder did not 'earn' their rank either. But they spent the rest of the game proving they could.
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Post by kenshen19 on May 24, 2017 0:05:51 GMT
To me the basic difference is Shep earned everything him/her gained, even Spectre status since they were already on their way to that title. Ryder on the other hand didn't do anything to earn their rank and I have wondered if he/she hadn't been infused with SAM to the point it would kill one or both if removed if they would have remained a pathfinder after reaching the Nexus. Also Shep always came off as a leader where to me Ryder is more of a peer or friend than a leader. Shepard did not earn the rank of Soectre how it was established Spectres earn their rank. He was given it wily nilly. Bioware violated their own lore...established just minutes before...to do so. And this was not the last time Bioware violated their own story...or common sense...in order to make shep a bad ass. And yes Ryder did not 'earn' their rank either. But they spent the rest of the game proving they could. They were already testing him and everything I took from the opening parts of ME1 that is was pretty much a done deal. Sure his test ended early but Shep had earned that role or they wouldn't be testing him in the first place. Also if you are going to claim that Ryder spent the game proving their worth then I can do the same with Shep.
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Post by colfoley on May 24, 2017 1:33:27 GMT
Shepard did not earn the rank of Soectre how it was established Spectres earn their rank. He was given it wily nilly. Bioware violated their own lore...established just minutes before...to do so. And this was not the last time Bioware violated their own story...or common sense...in order to make shep a bad ass. And yes Ryder did not 'earn' their rank either. But they spent the rest of the game proving they could. They were already testing him and everything I took from the opening parts of ME1 that is was pretty much a done deal. Sure his test ended early but Shep had earned that role or they wouldn't be testing him in the first place. Also if you are going to claim that Ryder spent the game proving their worth then I can do the same with Shep. that is normally not how testing works. Especially for elite special forces. Shepards accomplishments was enough to get their foot in the door. But not enough to gurantee admission. Otherwise the beginning mission would have gone very differently. And nihlus says i quote'this will be our first of several missions together' and what happens on the mission? Nihlus dies, Shepard is blamed for it, the mission is a failure...Yet a short time later they are making her a spectre for no real reason. If Bioware were honest and consistent they would have put another spectre on the Normandy. Left Anderson in command and Shepard would have proven themselves over the rest of the game and became a spectre at the end. As to your other point...Shepard didn't b get a chance to prove themselves. No one questioned it...the whole galaxy just went with it. Unlike Ryder
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Post by toomanyclouds on May 25, 2017 6:18:00 GMT
You know, the problem I have with the Ryder Defense Squad is that the general assumption seems to be that people don't understand Ryder. No, Ryder is not a difficult character to understand as a video game hero. Thematically, Ryder is a perfectly standard Chosen One coming-of-age hero (whereas Shepard was just a Chosen One). I respect if someone is not tired of that story yet (I am very much), but I'm seriously confused how you would consider "mentor figure dies so young unprepared would-be hero has to prove himself in the role s/he was just thrust into with the help of a plot device (in this case SAM) to boost their raw powers" a subversion of a trope. That's like, every second fantasy book since LotR and every third SciFi story since Star Wars IV. I think the general idea of Ryder as a "pussy" (I hate that description) is not a result from their role in the story. Obviously Ryder is also a huge badass who succeeds against impossible odds doing inhumanely awesome things, yada, yada, s/he is a main character in a Bioware game, that's par for the course. So far, the complainrs seem to come more from the fact that the writing didn't really give you huge tonal differences in the dialogue options in a series which usually allowed you to do that. And yes, I will defend that somewhat on the basis that a 22 year old non-military type probably wouldn't throw their weight around like someone with Shepard's credentials - but then I question why I was put in the shoes of such a character in a roleplaying game. The fact of the matter is, ME:A is the first game in the whole of Bioware's modern RPGs where you can't consistently play a character who uses an aggressive/abrasive tone (though Ryder can be pretty ruthless in their actual decisions - when the game feels like it). Every other ME and DA game gave you that option. It's not strange that the absence of said option would make people think of Ryder as, well, 50 Shades of Paragon. Ryder is different from their forebearers. If you want a character arc for Shepard, you will have to make it. You can play a Paragon Shepard who slides into Renegade-ism over three games, or a human-first Renegade whose contact with other species in his teams softens him/her over the course of the story. For me, Shepard is a character with serious roleplaying potential (obviously within lines), whereas Ryder so far is more like playing Gerard from the Witcher 3. There are ways to influence their personality, but it's not, in the end, my character, it's a character Bioware pre-made and gave me to tweak within reasonable parameters. There's nothing wrong with that, a more defined character can absolutely head an RPG, but it's definitely a different approach from before. And for me - I just don't like that character. Which is fine, Bioware doesn't have to write characters I like. I'm just not used to the main character being so locked into their personality that they can be one of them. I have not noticed Inquisitor taking an angry/harsh tone either. He felt way milder to me than Ryder. An aggressive Hawke was not really your Shep-Renegade either. I mean, it's the character that in an act of anger... bloodlessly and quietly stabs his opponent in the back? I'd go into Siths in SWTOR to find characters as hard, open and not stupid about DS as Shepard is. I sure would love to play a more aggressive Inquisitor, but that hands-crossed-across-the-chest options are not really satisfying imo. I never felt that my Inquisitor did anything, but floated along with the story. Ryder feels more empowered to make choices in comparison.
I do want the truly DS options & ability to play hard and hardened char back, both in ME games and in DA4
I mean, the constant ability to make actually ruthless decisions that actually matter (instead of just roleplaying in conversations) would be the best of all worlds, of course, but the problem with that is resources, since it would create new story arms. In the absence of that, I'd accept at least being allowed to voice the character's dissatisfaction with what is going on. But I have to disagree on Ryder. I felt he was much more along for the ride than the Inquisitor. However, I blame a lot of that on SAM and Bioware's constant insistence on him giving you tutorials on every single thing you'd done 30 times that game already, not to mention his incessant micromanaging of Ryder's status that every player should be able to confirm with a look in the lefthand corner ("Temperatures are dropping, Pathfinder."). A lot of the time, I just felt like I was following an FAQ and one that didn't think I was particularly bright, at that.
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Post by toomanyclouds on May 25, 2017 6:46:52 GMT
They were already testing him and everything I took from the opening parts of ME1 that is was pretty much a done deal. Sure his test ended early but Shep had earned that role or they wouldn't be testing him in the first place. Also if you are going to claim that Ryder spent the game proving their worth then I can do the same with Shep. that is normally not how testing works. Especially for elite special forces. Shepards accomplishments was enough to get their foot in the door. But not enough to gurantee admission. Otherwise the beginning mission would have gone very differently. And nihlus says i quote'this will be our first of several missions together' and what happens on the mission? Nihlus dies, Shepard is blamed for it, the mission is a failure...Yet a short time later they are making her a spectre for no real reason. If Bioware were honest and consistent they would have put another spectre on the Normandy. Left Anderson in command and Shepard would have proven themselves over the rest of the game and became a spectre at the end. As to your other point...Shepard didn't b get a chance to prove themselves. No one questioned it...the whole galaxy just went with it. Unlike Ryder Shepard is only made Spectre once s/he has audio proof that Saren betrayed the Council, which is the grounds on which s/he is made Spectre, pretty much mostly to continue the special investigation that s/he already began. Considering Shepard never gets any other important Spectre tasks during the game, I'd even say the whole of the Saren investigation is the real test, being the first Spectre mission undertaken by a human. Shepard convinced the Council one of their best agents is working to take them down and is the only person who has recognised this fact. I wouldn't call that "no real reason". I mean, you could argue they may have passed the info on to another, more experienced Sprectre, but personally, it was enough for me to keep up the immersion.
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Post by Deleted on May 25, 2017 11:57:57 GMT
I have not noticed Inquisitor taking an angry/harsh tone either. He felt way milder to me than Ryder. An aggressive Hawke was not really your Shep-Renegade either. I mean, it's the character that in an act of anger... bloodlessly and quietly stabs his opponent in the back? I'd go into Siths in SWTOR to find characters as hard, open and not stupid about DS as Shepard is. I sure would love to play a more aggressive Inquisitor, but that hands-crossed-across-the-chest options are not really satisfying imo. I never felt that my Inquisitor did anything, but floated along with the story. Ryder feels more empowered to make choices in comparison.
I do want the truly DS options & ability to play hard and hardened char back, both in ME games and in DA4
I mean, the constant ability to make actually ruthless decisions that actually matter (instead of just roleplaying in conversations) would be the best of all worlds, of course, but the problem with that is resources, since it would create new story arms. In the absence of that, I'd accept at least being allowed to voice the character's dissatisfaction with what is going on. But I have to disagree on Ryder. I felt he was much more along for the ride than the Inquisitor. However, I blame a lot of that on SAM and Bioware's constant insistence on him giving you tutorials on every single thing you'd done 30 times that game already, not to mention his incessant micromanaging of Ryder's status that every player should be able to confirm with a look in the lefthand corner ("Temperatures are dropping, Pathfinder."). A lot of the time, I just felt like I was following an FAQ and one that didn't think I was particularly bright, at that. Oh, I love SAM. It felt so cool to have that continuous feedback loop from the instruments. it felt the world more real. The same way in MP there used to be some char abilities that changed your view screen to indicate your cyber enhancements working... one thing I love in Andromeda vs Inquisition is that there is no hours and hours of oppressive scilence. Someone always talking toRyder, Sam, banters, quest-givers....
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Post by djbare on May 25, 2017 12:41:29 GMT
Hard to compare, it often seems to be forgotten that the Ryder twins are not soldiers, they were trained in exploration and first contact diplomacy, took me a while to grasp it, but this is not Shepard, it's not even a Shepard story, this is the Ryder twins story and it's very contrasting to Shepard's story, I like like it, but I do hope they give the Ryder's a bit more license to be assholes in future games, I've certainly enjoyed the casual dialogue from Sara.
Anyway, it's definitely apples and oranges, and I'm happy to say, I like both.
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Post by CriticalFailure on May 25, 2017 15:11:56 GMT
Before they become a Spectre/Pathfinder: Shepard is a decorated veteran, already being considered for Spectre status from the start. Ryder has some training and has seen some combat, but nothing noteworthy. Shepard gets promoted (reluctantly, if I may add) after investigating and exposing Saren as a traitor. Ryder gets promoted after... breaking their helmet? Yet Shepard is the one being given everything? As to your other point...Shepard didn't b get a chance to prove themselves. No one questioned it...the whole galaxy just went with it. Unlike Ryder Which makes sense, as, unlike Ryder, Shepard is already somebody. In any case, proving oneself worthy of something is a different matter than being welcome or overcoming opposition. That said, Shepard does face some opposition in the first game, though admittedly not nearly as much, and their race may have more to do with it than anything else. Also, I'd argue that Ryder is more in the spotlight, and thus more exposed to criticism. Ultimately, both prove themselves beyond any doubt. I don't want to sound like a Shepard fanboy (I've probably failed ); just trying to be objective, as some of the posts on this thread seem a little biased toward Ryder. I personally prefer Shepard as a protagonist simply because, to me, they seem more fitting for the role, and hence, more immersive, at least in the beginning. It's a shame because I feel that a couple little changes in Ryder's story would go a long way to fix that problem, but we have to work with what we got.
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Post by flyingsquirrel on May 31, 2017 14:15:33 GMT
I actually thought making Ryder only 22 years old was a mistake. Maybe being in the Alliance would make you grow up fast, but (s)he just seems way more focused and mature than your average 22-year-old, and rightly or wrongly, *someone* would bring it up in terms of qualifications to be Pathfinder. Plus, there was at least one flashback to several years ago where the twins look pretty much exactly the same. Most people would look at least a little different at 22 than they did at 17 or 18.
I don't have a strong preference between Ryder and Shepard yet. I'd say Shepard's dialogue is a little more memorable, but then I've also played the trilogy something like a dozen times now and I've only played MEA once, so maybe I'll change my mind after giving it another run. I think MEA suffers compared to the trilogy more because of its sprawling structure and unnecessarily padded-out length, so I'm not sure I'll end up playing it more than one or two more times.
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Post by colfoley on Jun 1, 2017 1:15:29 GMT
I actually thought making Ryder only 22 years old was a mistake. Maybe being in the Alliance would make you grow up fast, but (s)he just seems way more focused and mature than your average 22-year-old, and rightly or wrongly, *someone* would bring it up in terms of qualifications to be Pathfinder. Plus, there was at least one flashback to several years ago where the twins look pretty much exactly the same. Most people would look at least a little different at 22 than they did at 17 or 18. I don't have a strong preference between Ryder and Shepard yet. I'd say Shepard's dialogue is a little more memorable, but then I've also played the trilogy something like a dozen times now and I've only played MEA once, so maybe I'll change my mind after giving it another run. I think MEA suffers compared to the trilogy more because of its sprawling structure and unnecessarily padded-out length, so I'm not sure I'll end up playing it more than one or two more times. i agree. Honestly 25 would have been faaaarr better.
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Post by Qui-Gon GlenN7 on Jun 1, 2017 1:19:05 GMT
Re-read the OP.
Shepard was given everything? The Sole Survivor, the War Hero, was given everything.
Too much facepalm to discuss further.
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Post by colfoley on Jun 1, 2017 1:31:00 GMT
Re-read the OP. Shepard was given everything? The Sole Survivor, the War Hero, was given everything. To much facepalm to discuss further. is it really so hard to understand that i am talking about in game events only? Yes many of the backgrounds were tragic, yes they established sheps bad ass cred. But as soon as you took control of the commander the entire universe just bent over backwards to accomodate them. Throwing common sense and lore integrity out the Window. So much so that Shepard was a religious icon at the end of it all.
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Post by ComedicSociopathy on Jun 1, 2017 2:01:43 GMT
Re-read the OP. Shepard was given everything? The Sole Survivor, the War Hero, was given everything. To much facepalm to discuss further. is it really so hard to understand that i am talking about in game events only? Yes many of the backgrounds were tragic, yes they established sheps bad ass cred. But as soon as you took control of the commander the entire universe just bent over backwards to accomodate them. Throwing common sense and lore integrity out the Window. So much so that Shepard was a religious icon at the end of it all. The exact same can be side about Ryder whose daddy literally gives him or her the most important AI in the universe in the first half hour of the game.
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Post by colfoley on Jun 1, 2017 3:58:08 GMT
is it really so hard to understand that i am talking about in game events only? Yes many of the backgrounds were tragic, yes they established sheps bad ass cred. But as soon as you took control of the commander the entire universe just bent over backwards to accomodate them. Throwing common sense and lore integrity out the Window. So much so that Shepard was a religious icon at the end of it all. The exact same can be side about Ryder whose daddy literally gives him or her the most important AI in the universe in the first half hour of the game. but the reasons for that decision were revealed later in the game. It was because Alec made a very personal very human choice. And the Intiative and even your team spent a good part of the game being skeptical. Instead of, in Sheps case, save us oh immortal great one.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 6, 2017 8:19:46 GMT
ewww really? Janeway? Talk to some Navy boys about their thoughts on Janeway. She was a shit commander and should have been court marshaled as soon as she got back. Shepard never was handed anything only 1 out of the 6 pregame history choices was remotely 'good'. and while Shepard was given the title of specter that was a political move and everyone thought Shepard would fail at it. It really was never a serious appointment, it was designed to shut the humans up and stop Shepard from being a nuisance by getting them off the citadel. I also find it hysterical you compare Ryder to Piccard. Piccard had an aura of command around him Ryder dose not as evidenced by how the crew reacts to them. basically at the end of the day Shepard was born to Lead and Succeed. Ryder was not and is learning as they go ...give Ryder 30 years or so and they'll.get there. The point is Picard is a diplomat and a thinker. Shepard is a doer. Shepard = Kirk Ryder = Picard Case Closed.
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Post by n7vakarian on Jun 6, 2017 21:33:18 GMT
The exact same can be side about Ryder whose daddy literally gives him or her the most important AI in the universe in the first half hour of the game. but the reasons for that decision were revealed later in the game. It was because Alec made a very personal very human choice. And the Intiative and even your team spent a good part of the game being skeptical. Instead of, in Sheps case, save us oh immortal great one. Yet Ryder is given the AI by daddy dearest and the AI don't think one moment to take this very unqualified person off a Pathfinder duty and replace them with someone with more skill who would be better suited to the role. He has daddies super special AI of course. You don't need something like that to find and explore a planet yet the game uses it to make Ryder seem more important than he/she should be. I'm not trying to pick sides but out of who is seen more as the "chosen one" it's Ryder all the way. Shepard has the talent and skill to back up everything he was and everything that he did and got throughout the series. Christ if he went to Andromeda and Ryder still got SAM I'd be the first to kick Ryder off the Tempest and give it to Shepard.
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Post by ComedicSociopathy on Jun 6, 2017 23:26:11 GMT
...give Ryder 30 years or so and they'll.get there. The point is Picard is a diplomat and a thinker. Shepard is a doer. Shepard = Kirk Ryder = Picard Case Closed. It's more like Shepard = Kirk and Ryder = Archer. Picard is to intelligent and mature for any ME protagonist.
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Post by colfoley on Jun 6, 2017 23:26:25 GMT
but the reasons for that decision were revealed later in the game. It was because Alec made a very personal very human choice. And the Intiative and even your team spent a good part of the game being skeptical. Instead of, in Sheps case, save us oh immortal great one. Yet Ryder is given the AI by daddy dearest and the AI don't think one moment to take this very unqualified person off a Pathfinder duty and replace them with someone with more skill who would be better suited to the role. He has daddies super special AI of course. You don't need something like that to find and explore a planet yet the game uses it to make Ryder seem more important than he/she should be. I'm not trying to pick sides but out of who is seen more as the "chosen one" it's Ryder all the way. Shepard has the talent and skill to back up everything he was and everything that he did and got throughout the series. Christ if he went to Andromeda and Ryder still got SAM I'd be the first to kick Ryder off the Tempest and give it to Shepard. except who would alec or the initiative have chosen differently? Cora? Maybe. But by her own admission later in the game she would have stunk at the role. Which leaves...no one else. Not with one aspect of training or the will to even try the job. And alec had already made his choice. You can be assured had Ryder failed they would have chosen someone else...but they didn't.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 6, 2017 23:36:56 GMT
Shepard = Kirk Ryder = Picard Case Closed. It's more like Shepard = Kirk and Ryder = Archer. Picard is to intelligent and mature for any ME protagonist. I named the Star Trek Captains who matter Though Ryder = Archer is a pretty good comparison. Cora as Lana, Gil/Lexi as Krieger, Jaal as Cyril, Addison as Archer's mom... lol.
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Post by kaileena_sands on Jun 7, 2017 0:42:25 GMT
I stopped reading this topic after reading how Shepard got everything handed to them.
Nothing against Ryder (I enjoyed her/him) but for the better part of the playthrough, I felt like I was playing Nepotism: The Game.
That's all.
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Post by themikefest on Jun 8, 2017 1:41:08 GMT
except who would alec or the initiative have chosen differently? Cora? Maybe. But by her own admission later in the game she would have stunk at the role. I doubt she would have said that if given the pathfinder job. Its too bad that Alec didn't survive. I would like to hear the explanation he would give to Cora and his kid of why he did what he did?
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Post by colfoley on Jun 8, 2017 1:56:04 GMT
except who would alec or the initiative have chosen differently? Cora? Maybe. But by her own admission later in the game she would have stunk at the role. I doubt she would have said that if given the pathfinder job. Its too bad that Alec didn't survive. I would like to hear the explanation he would give to Cora and his kid of why he did what he did? probably. But in that case we should be glad she didn't given in that case she would have found out she didn't have the chops to do the job while doing the job she doesn't have the chops for. I'd be curious too but ultimately we know his reasons.
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Post by themikefest on Jun 8, 2017 2:37:12 GMT
probably. But in that case we should be glad she didn't given in that case she would have found out she didn't have the chops to do the job while doing the job she doesn't have the chops for. That's just an assumption on your part. No idea how well she would have done if she was given that position at the beginning of the game I know the reasons, but I like to see him tell them to Cora's face why he chose his kid, if he survived.
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Post by colfoley on Jun 8, 2017 3:56:31 GMT
probably. But in that case we should be glad she didn't given in that case she would have found out she didn't have the chops to do the job while doing the job she doesn't have the chops for. That's just an assumption on your part. No idea how well she would have done if she was given that position at the beginning of the game I know the reasons, but I like to see him tell them to Cora's face why he chose his kid, if he survived. if he survived then the twins wouldn't have been pathfinder.
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Post by themikefest on Jun 8, 2017 4:22:19 GMT
if he survived then the twins wouldn't have been pathfinder. Why? When he transferred everything to his kid he believed he was going to die, but survived. Once he regained conciousness, he wouldn''t be able to do much because of the injury that he suffered to his hip/upper leg.
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