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Post by joleebindo on Sept 11, 2016 7:46:35 GMT
This has probably been done to death in other threads already, but I'm still very conflicted.
My first playthrough was as a warrior Inquisitor who allied with the Templars. On my second, however, I'm playing a mage and chose In Hushed Whispers.
Problem is, I don't feel like the game gives me enough info to make an informed decision regarding whether to conscript or ally with the mages. It's not really clear exactly how dangerous the free mages will be. Pro-Circle characters such as Cullen and Vivienne seem to think that rampant Abominations are very likely, even inevitable. The events of Here Lies the Abyss (and the Circle quest in DA:O) are also pretty intense. On the other hand, pro-rebel characters like Leliana, Josephine, Solas and Dorian seem to gloss over the risk of demon possession almost entirely. We additionally know that the Tevinter Imperium more or less manages to function without heavy restrictions on magic use.
My initial choice was to conscript, mostly because of how dangerous mages seemed in DA:O, but the game painted me as a massive jerk in the aftermath and after speaking to Dorian I wasn't sure that I'd made the right decision.
No matter which option I choose, several characters decide that I'm an idiot. So, what's the evidence for and against? Are Vivienne and Cullen right when they predict disaster, or will the mages, by and large, be able to control themselves?
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Post by jemc on Sept 11, 2016 9:15:06 GMT
I assume you are okay with spoilers. I guess everyone on these forums are. I keep twitching when I don't use the square brackets on everything.
This is my first play thru and no DA games previously. But I did play Skyrim and I don't see how this world is different. Since I was protective of mages in Skyrim and they treated me well for the kindness I just had to protect them AND give them totally free reign. Trying to image a world where some mage rogue isn't trying to electrocute my ass seems boring. You know, like real life. Rules up for role playing games - never ever imitate real life. Thus release the magic mania!
That said, that I have sided with mages with all my heart, I have experienced absolutely nothing in this DAI game that shows them acting disreputably. The wardens on the other hand need a good spanking.
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Post by Catilina on Sept 11, 2016 11:40:33 GMT
This has probably been done to death in other threads already, but I'm still very conflicted. My first playthrough was as a warrior Inquisitor who allied with the Templars. On my second, however, I'm playing a mage and chose In Hushed Whispers. Problem is, I don't feel like the game gives me enough info to make an informed decision regarding whether to conscript or ally with the mages. It's not really clear exactly how dangerous the free mages will be. Pro-Circle characters such as Cullen and Vivienne seem to think that rampant Abominations are very likely, even inevitable. The events of Here Lies the Abyss (and the Circle quest in DA:O) are also pretty intense. On the other hand, pro-rebel characters like Leliana, Josephine, Solas and Dorian seem to gloss over the risk of demon possession almost entirely. We additionally know that the Tevinter Imperium more or less manages to function without heavy restrictions on magic use. My initial choice was to conscript, mostly because of how dangerous mages seemed in DA:O, but the game painted me as a massive jerk in the aftermath and after speaking to Dorian I wasn't sure that I'd made the right decision. No matter which option I choose, several characters decide that I'm an idiot. So, what's the evidence for and against? Are Vivienne and Cullen right when they predict disaster, or will the mages, by and large, be able to control themselves? I don't see abomination in the Inquisition. Except red Templar ones ... I never done yet the Champion of the Just, because with mage characters I don't have sense for choose the Templars. They are dangerous in a mage viewpoints, as I see. Now I have a dwarf, maybe with him.
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Post by thesupremedarkone on Sept 11, 2016 13:48:15 GMT
If you're okay with spoilers, no the mages don't turn into abominations if you ally with them. Cullen used to be a Templar and extreme Mage hater so of course he wouldn't be fully on board with mages. Also, take anything Vivienne says with a grain of salt since ultimately she never had to endure the hardships of a circle and really only cares about attaining power
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Post by Drainful on Sept 11, 2016 14:25:26 GMT
In game, there are no abominations and no disaster in general. Solas, Dorian, Vivienne, Cullen, and Leliana all make wet tissue frail arguments on the decisions regardless of what you do.
For example, Dorian calls you an idiot if you want to bring back the Circles by conscripting them, and likewise he praises you AND warns you for making the first step to Tevinterizing the south if you ally with them. Tevinter is basically the worst case scenario of mage freedom.
You're better off getting more in depth info from mage/templar arguments online if you want more than "they're good people let them be free!!!" and "ABOMINATIONS EVERYWHERE OMG" that you get from the game itself.
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Post by cardbutton on Sept 11, 2016 16:51:46 GMT
This has probably been done to death in other threads already, but I'm still very conflicted. My first playthrough was as a warrior Inquisitor who allied with the Templars. On my second, however, I'm playing a mage and chose In Hushed Whispers. Problem is, I don't feel like the game gives me enough info to make an informed decision regarding whether to conscript or ally with the mages. It's not really clear exactly how dangerous the free mages will be. Pro-Circle characters such as Cullen and Vivienne seem to think that rampant Abominations are very likely, even inevitable. The events of Here Lies the Abyss (and the Circle quest in DA:O) are also pretty intense. On the other hand, pro-rebel characters like Leliana, Josephine, Solas and Dorian seem to gloss over the risk of demon possession almost entirely. We additionally know that the Tevinter Imperium more or less manages to function without heavy restrictions on magic use. My initial choice was to conscript, mostly because of how dangerous mages seemed in DA:O, but the game painted me as a massive jerk in the aftermath and after speaking to Dorian I wasn't sure that I'd made the right decision. No matter which option I choose, several characters decide that I'm an idiot. So, what's the evidence for and against? Are Vivienne and Cullen right when they predict disaster, or will the mages, by and large, be able to control themselves? Functionally the source of this problem for players stems back heavily to DA2. Much of what you are experiencing in DA:I is the aftermath of those events, so I totally get how it would be difficult to make a decision on its own merit. Especially since neither factions are really portrayed all that negatively. The Templar's boss is an ass, but he's also a Demon impostor drugging and corrupting the Templars without their knowledge. The Mage leader I found to be a bumbling incompetent, but as a faction they truly do have some sympathetic qualities. For me in DA2 I sided with the Mages ... and then came to regret it, but each person will walk away with their own opinion on those events.
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Post by xerrai on Sept 11, 2016 17:27:47 GMT
Characters like Vivienne and Cullen, while intelligent on their own merits, seem to think that allying with free mages means anarchy basically. That mages will just roam around without any authority whatsoever and turn in abominations at an exceptionally higher rate than what the Circles ever allowed (a valid enough of a concern, particularly if mages are reduced to being hermits and despised refugees).
But from what we can tell, this is not entirely true. Be it with the Circles or the College of Enchanters, the mages still seem to want/have an institution that will address "mage problems". How the Circle does this is well known, but the College is a new organization and we do not know how they operate. But the fact that they have the potential to be just as powerful/influential as the Circle is pretty telling. The bright hand in particular seems to garner an unprecedented amount of success and acceptance.
The only and primary reason that I would think this system might fail is because of how some of the mages handled Redcliffe. Fiona basically accepted help from Ferelden, proceeded to piss Ferelden off (by exiling the Arl), allied with Tevinter (who are universally hated) and basically either condoned or was ignorant of the tranquil killings. But it is clear that most, if not the grand majority, of mages in her care were against her decision. I only recall one mage that actually supported allying with Tevinter.
At the very least, I'd say Fiona and her gang showed an impressive amount of incompetence. Which I guess makes sense, mages have never realy experienced the world save for an extreme few. Many other mages though ended up finding noble patrons, or ended up like Enchanter Ellendra and were trying to help people or integrate into society in their own way. But others ended up like the violent apostates that we see in the Hinterlands.
It's basically chaos until a new Order is formed to address mage-specific issues. Which happens no matter what you choose in one form or another.
(Personally I prefer to try and get a powerful College of Enchanters on a most of my playthroughs)
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Post by Catilina on Sept 11, 2016 17:40:13 GMT
[...] mages have never realy experienced the world save for an extreme few. [...] So: the Templars have experience to save anyone? I not really saw. (Ferelden, Gregoir: impotent. Kirkwall, Meredith: impotent; Ser Varnell: Petrice's puppet) Perhaps you can present one example, when the Templars was not totally impotent... One of the Templars was not totally impotent:Sir Emeric. But no one took him seriously ... except Hawke, who possibly a mage. (Okay, Cullen and Carver was not totally impotent, when helped Hawke to kill Meredith. They saved Kirkwall, from a crazy ... Templar Commander. Yes.)
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Post by lordofwar on Sept 11, 2016 17:43:53 GMT
The only and primary reason that I would think this system might fail is because of how some of the mages handled Redcliffe. Fiona basically accepted help from Ferelden, proceeded to piss Ferelden off (by exiling the Arl), allied with Tevinter (who are universally hated) and basically either condoned or was ignorant of the tranquil killings. But it is clear that most, if not the grand majority, of mages in her care were against her decision. I only recall one mage that actually supported allying with Tevinter. At the very least, I'd say Fiona and her gang showed an impressive amount of incompetence. Which I guess makes sense, mages have never realy experienced the world save for an extreme few. Many other mages though ended up finding noble patrons, or ended up like Enchanter Ellendra and were trying to help people or integrate into society in their own way. But others ended up like the violent apostates that we see in the Hinterlands. Alexius and the Venatori literally had to alter time to make this remotely possible, so I wouldn't worry too much.
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Post by sageoflife on Sept 11, 2016 18:30:55 GMT
The risk exists, but Chantry propaganda makes it seem much worse than it actually is. It's amazing how much more pleasant people are when they don't constantly have the Sword of Damocles hanging over their heads.
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Post by joleebindo on Sept 12, 2016 3:41:41 GMT
Thanks for these great responses guys.
I probably should have made it clearer, but I wasn't after what actually happens in-game, but what a post-Circle Orlais and Ferelden will look like going forward.
I've yet to play Trespasser so perhaps that will give me a better idea.
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Post by joleebindo on Sept 12, 2016 3:46:22 GMT
The risk exists, but Chantry propaganda makes it seem much worse than it actually is. It's amazing how much more pleasant people are when they don't constantly have the Sword of Damocles hanging over their heads. Yeah this makes sense to me. Cullen as a former Templar and Vivienne as a Circle loyalist are probably going to be a bit biased. Although the anti-Circle people still largely seem to ignore that there is any risk at all. This is why I like Cassandra as the new Divine. She seems a lot more moderate and level-headed than Leliana and Vivienne on this issue. Leliana is a complete radical and lacks any pragmatism, while Vivienne is an arch-conservative who seems doomed to repeat the cycle.
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Post by cardbutton on Sept 12, 2016 4:02:48 GMT
The risk exists, but Chantry propaganda makes it seem much worse than it actually is. It's amazing how much more pleasant people are when they don't constantly have the Sword of Damocles hanging over their heads. Yeah this makes sense to me. Cullen as a former Templar and Vivienne as a Circle loyalist are probably going to be a bit biased. Although the anti-Circle people still largely seem to ignore that there is any risk at all. This is why I like Cassandra as the new Divine. She seems a lot more moderate and level-headed than Leliana and Vivienne on this issue. Leliana is a complete radical and lacks any pragmatism, while Vivienne is an arch-conservative who seems doomed to repeat the cycle. You're not wrong! Cassy is definitely the middle of the road decision and always the voice of reason. She's a solid choice no matter what type of play-through you're doing. If it weren't for the fact that I prefer her rebuilding the Seekers I would try for her to be Divine every time, even if she's not too fond of actually being Divine lol! Since that's the case for me I try to scatter the power around instead. Ally with the Templars, support Lele as Divine, the two ideals and powers balance each other out to quite a nice degree and so too do the resulting Circle and College from those choice. Best of all since this is super important to the way I play DA:I, not one of the factions or groups you deal with are reliant on the Inquisition to survive by the end of Trespasser. It means my Quizzy who wishes to shut down the Inquisition, can do so without worry or fallout. They were all built up to continue on their own, no Inquisition brand batteries required!
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Post by lordofwar on Sept 12, 2016 4:06:11 GMT
This is why I like Cassandra as the new Divine. She seems a lot more moderate and level-headed than Leliana and Vivienne on this issue. Leliana is a complete radical and lacks any pragmatism, while Vivienne is an arch-conservative who seems doomed to repeat the cycle. Not really. What Cassandra does resembles what came before the most, with only marginal reforms. She's a compassionate conservative, but a conservative nonetheless, and she's one that doesn't know how to play politics, which means that her reforms seem like the most likely to be either reversed over time or just blocked outright. What Vivienne does, what she is, is more radical than even Leliana in some ways. Vivienne doesn't want to give the mages a pointless, unorganized freedom, but a political freedom: she wants the Circles to be powers in their own right, protected and legitimized by the Chantry's umbrella, with the Templars tamed, and not in a position of real power. Leliana and Vivienne represent competing visions of what mages should be and do, with Leliana advocating for complete equality and Vivienne a special, powerful, and organized place in the world, while Cassandra's is just an idealized version of Chantry doctrine.
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Post by cardbutton on Sept 12, 2016 4:11:59 GMT
This is why I like Cassandra as the new Divine. She seems a lot more moderate and level-headed than Leliana and Vivienne on this issue. Leliana is a complete radical and lacks any pragmatism, while Vivienne is an arch-conservative who seems doomed to repeat the cycle. Not really. What Cassandra does resembles what came before the most, with only marginal reforms. She's a compassionate conservative, but a conservative nonetheless, and she's one that does't know how to play politics, which means that her reforms seem like the most likely to be either reversed over time or just blocked outright. What Vivienne does, what she is, is more radical than even Leliana in some ways. Vivienne doesn't want to give the mages a pointless, unorganized freedom, but a political freedom: she wants the Circles to be powers in their own right, protected and legitimized by the Chantry's umbrella, with the Templars tamed, and not in a position of real power. Leliana and Vivienne represent competing visions of what mages should be and do, with Leliana advocating for complete equality and Vivienne a special, powerful, and organized place in the world, while Cassandra's is just an idealized version of Chantry doctrine.Very good points. Both of the extremes are forces to be reckoned with and really depend on the player's preferences to define who's best. Honestly until we get a large scale time skip, its hard to tell which sort of ideology will function "best" for the Mages. Two different styles of blunt force, brutal change from both the Lele and Viv camps, with Cassy playing in between. She's not a bad choice by any stretch of the imagination, but now that you mention it she is definitely the safe option.
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Post by sageoflife on Sept 12, 2016 4:17:56 GMT
The risk exists, but Chantry propaganda makes it seem much worse than it actually is. It's amazing how much more pleasant people are when they don't constantly have the Sword of Damocles hanging over their heads. Yeah this makes sense to me. Cullen as a former Templar and Vivienne as a Circle loyalist are probably going to be a bit biased. Although the anti-Circle people still largely seem to ignore that there is any risk at all. This is why I like Cassandra as the new Divine. She seems a lot more moderate and level-headed than Leliana and Vivienne on this issue. Leliana is a complete radical and lacks any pragmatism, while Vivienne is an arch-conservative who seems doomed to repeat the cycle. I actually think Leliana as Divine combined with a rebuilt Seeker order creates a much more equitable and stable balance of power. The mages can create their own organization on their own terms that allows them to coexist with the rest of society, while an organization exists that, in tandem with both the Chantry and the secular governments, can squash any attempts to use the College as a precursor to a second Imperium but is not powerful enough to start abusing the mages in turn.
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Post by MissOuJ on Sept 12, 2016 17:00:16 GMT
Allied mages + softened Leliana as Divine Victoria + Cassandra rebuilding the Seekers = my perfect ending as far as mages are concerned, TBH. The mages get the freedom they need, the Chantry gets a proper work-over, and there're still competent people with swords who can take care of any troublemakers... Trespasser-spoilers: If only Vivienne didn't goddamn ruin the whole thing post-Trespasser - damn it! I was just about to start liking you again Viv! You start playing some political roulette with your new BS organisation to disturb the peace I built and I will. end. you.
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Post by sageoflife on Sept 12, 2016 17:12:57 GMT
Allied mages + softened Leliana as Divine Victoria + Cassandra rebuilding the Seekers = my perfect ending as far as mages are concerned, TBH. The mages get the freedom they need, the Chantry gets a proper work-over, and there're still competent people with swords who can take care of any troublemakers... Trespasser-spoilers: If only Vivienne didn't goddamn ruin the whole thing post-Trespasser - damn it! I was just about to start liking you again Viv! You start playing some political roulette with your new BS organisation to disturb the peace I built and I will. end. you. I doubt it will last long after Vivienne's death in that scenario, and based on what the Nightmare demon said, that won't be as long as people think.
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Post by MissOuJ on Sept 12, 2016 17:33:32 GMT
Allied mages + softened Leliana as Divine Victoria + Cassandra rebuilding the Seekers = my perfect ending as far as mages are concerned, TBH. The mages get the freedom they need, the Chantry gets a proper work-over, and there're still competent people with swords who can take care of any troublemakers... Trespasser-spoilers: If only Vivienne didn't goddamn ruin the whole thing post-Trespasser - damn it! I was just about to start liking you again Viv! You start playing some political roulette with your new BS organisation to disturb the peace I built and I will. end. you. I doubt it will last long after Vivienne's death in that scenario, and based on what the Nightmare demon said, that won't be as long as people think. Maybe, but I always thought that the Nightmare demon's comment at Viv was mostly a dig towards her relationship with Bastien - a relationship which bought her a significant amount of power, and which started when she was still quite young (she mentions it was her first time at court, and although it must've certainly been after her Harrowing and probably much later than, for example, Leliana's presentation to the court, she must've been something between 18 and 22). IMO, that comment is the Nightmare implying the only reason Viv did well for herself is because she slept her way to the top, and since she's not as young as she used to, wouldn't be able to do it again to regain her high standing in the new Circe if it was founded again - a comment that would cut Viv two-fold by implying that she has not, in fact, truly earned what she has achieved and that when her looks fade, she will become irrelevant, and at the same time implying that Bastien and Vivienne did not, in fact, love each other (which is, at least from Vivienne's point of view, completely false) but were just mutually using each other.
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Post by Ieldra on Sept 13, 2016 12:22:05 GMT
A free mage is about as dangerous as a person carrying an automatic gun around. If one gets insane, they can kill a lot of people before being brought down, but the majority are reasonable people who want nothing more than everyone else: a chance to make a good life.
The problem is, pre-emptive legislation that outlaws carrying specific weapons doesn't work with magic since you can't separate the mageborn from their magic without turning them Tranquil. Under those circumstances, I'd rather live with the rare case of mass murder than apply collective punishment to all.
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Post by our_lady_of_darkness on Sept 14, 2016 5:26:00 GMT
Problem is, I don't feel like the game gives me enough info to make an informed decision regarding whether to conscript or ally with the mages. It's not really clear exactly how dangerous the free mages will be. Pro-Circle characters such as Cullen and Vivienne seem to think that rampant Abominations are very likely, even inevitable. The events of Here Lies the Abyss (and the Circle quest in DA:O) are also pretty intense. On the other hand, pro-rebel characters like Leliana, Josephine, Solas and Dorian seem to gloss over the risk of demon possession almost entirely. We additionally know that the Tevinter Imperium more or less manages to function without heavy restrictions on magic use. My initial choice was to conscript, mostly because of how dangerous mages seemed in DA:O, but the game painted me as a massive jerk in the aftermath and after speaking to Dorian I wasn't sure that I'd made the right decision. No matter which option I choose, several characters decide that I'm an idiot. So, what's the evidence for and against? Are Vivienne and Cullen right when they predict disaster, or will the mages, by and large, be able to control themselves? I think the fact that you are unable to make an informed decision seems the actual point - it's supposed to be a hard decision, because no-one can predict what will happen next. It's only speculation, as it should be, with uncertainty and risk-taking. And about companions judging you differently - it would really boring if they all agreed on one course of action, plus it shows how complex and multilayered the situation with the mages is.
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Post by Prince on Sept 15, 2016 21:09:41 GMT
The problem with DA mages... is that they're nothing like wizards. Wizards (wise-men) work to obtain their power and because of that are often portrayed as intellectual and wise beyond their years and knowing things normal people are not privy to. DA mages are like Marvel mutants... they just get power whether they're responsible or not... and you can rage all you like, but DA mages on average are neither notably intelligent or responsible, in most cases they are the opposite. All the major world threats and/or current potenial menace are caused by mages and that includes: The Blights The breach Red lyrium The Architect, The dread wolf The evanuris A potential ex archdemon roaming with Mythal now devoted to vengeance with Morrigan as her puppet.
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Post by Iakus on Sept 15, 2016 22:40:24 GMT
A free mage is about as dangerous as a person carrying an automatic gun around. If one gets insane, they can kill a lot of people before being brought down, but the majority are reasonable people who want nothing more than everyone else: a chance to make a good life. The problem is, pre-emptive legislation that outlaws carrying specific weapons doesn't work with magic since you can't separate the mageborn from their magic without turning them Tranquil. Under those circumstances, I'd rather live with the rare case of mass murder than apply collective punishment to all. The other problem is the risk of possession. While non-mages can be possessed as well, mages are especially vulnerable due to their connection to the Fade.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 16, 2016 1:11:07 GMT
Eh, i would prefer it if they just went to the Circle as a school for learning, and than the Templars could act more or less as a police-force for mages, I feel that would be better for everyone...
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xerrai
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Post by xerrai on Sept 16, 2016 4:19:10 GMT
The problem with DA mages... is that they're nothing like wizards. Wizards (wise-men) work to obtain their power and because of that are often portrayed as intellectual and wise beyond their years and knowing things normal people are not privy to. DA mages are like Marvel mutants... they just get power whether they're responsible or not... and you can rage all you like, but DA mages on average are neither notably intelligent or responsible, in most cases they are the opposite. All the major world threats and/or current potenial menace are caused by mages and that includes: The Blights The breach Red lyrium The Architect, The dread wolf The evanuris A potential ex archdemon roaming with Mythal now devoted to vengeance with Morrigan as her puppet. Um, no mad per se, but I do heavily disagree. The majority of mages live what I like to call "quiet" lives. The Enchanters that study in operating Circles, mages who are operating under noble patrons, the Seers (or part of them) in Rivaini communities, a decent portion of Dalish Keepers, the Augur of the Avvar tribes, etc. Countless mages have shown intelligence, diligence and responsibility specific to the culture in which they live. I suppose you could still claim that "on average" they not intelligent or responsible based on your personal view of which "intelligence" and "responsibility" include. For instance, you may not considered the nomad tribes (Avvar+Dalish) intelligent because of their lack of non-magic education within their tribes even though they are probably the most educated person within the tribe itself. Or you may think of the Avaar spirit practices as ' not responsible' because you personally believe that most forms of spirit communion are actually not responsible even though the Avaar have their own countermeasures for most prevalent forms of spirit-abuse (mage abominations and demons specifically). That's not too say there are no 'bad' mages. Actually there are several (just look at the Hinterlands during the rebellion, Kirkwall, and most big bads of the series) but when mages go bad that's when people start to actually start to take notice when most mages are actually just doing their own thing and being a minimal nuisance--if not a benefit, to certain communities. Then there's the mages I haven't counted yet, like Circle apprentices, who have or are gaining intelligence but have yet develop or discover how they should use their talents (if at all). So i'm calling bs on the "mages are generally neither intelligent or responsible on average". But otherwise I agree with everything else in the post.
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