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Post by Deleted on Aug 19, 2016 13:06:22 GMT
Nowadays, I don't mind Horizon one bit and actually look forward to seeing Kaidan for those few precious minutes in ME2 but boy how angry I was when I played the game for the first time. Mind you, I was mostly angry at Bioware and not even about the conflict between Shepard and Kaidan but the way it was handled. At that point I thought it was a cheap way to get rid of his character from the picture and there was no certainty that he'd come back/in what role in ME3. As for his objections for joining Shepard, no gripe in there since my first ever (in both me1&2) Shep had Sole Survivor background. There was no chance she'd work with Cerberus without trying every other option available. I wish Shepard could put up more fight before settling on working with TIM out of sheer desperation. I know the time was precious but hey, she had time for recruitment missions and other filler. I love the characters in ME2, their recruitment/loyalty missions and the suicide mission, just the overarching plot is bleh imo, so pointless and disjointed. And I am going on a tangent here so bringing this back on topic again, conflict with Kaidan changed my Shep, she was majorly conflicted throughout the game. It added extra opportunity to rethink her character and her loyalties. It also gave me Mars reunion and, since my love for this mission is unparalleled (the music, the setting, the story buildup and of course smoothing things with Kaidan), I accept that Horizon exists. I still cringe at the lines though... Before I knew how Kaidan and Shep's romance would play out, Kaidan on Horizon sucked in the, "OH NOES! My sexy digital boyfriend doesn't love me anymore, waahhh", way! Knowing that everything works out,(except for the pesky maybe dying part but let's just pretend that doesn't happen ) that angsty moment is loads of fun on subsequent playthroughs. I'll add my vote for preferring ME1 Kaidan to beefed up ME3 Kaidan.
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Post by Chiantirose on Aug 19, 2016 13:16:47 GMT
Lol, why did they have to give him the "Dad" moves! This seriously reminds me of my dad trying to look cool after having a bit too much to drink. Haha, well, it's the way he dances in ME3 Citadel DLC party, so I guess they just took that and stripped him. Oh yeah I know. I played the Citadel Dlc before. By "they" I meant BioWare, lol. Oh well, still love the guy, even with his "dad" moves
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Post by NRieh on Aug 19, 2016 14:00:15 GMT
Speaking of Horizon. Here's my little something. It's a Friendly Horizon Letter .tlk mod.(details and links in spoiler) -- What is it?This mod is a friendly NON-ROMANCE letter from Kaidan Alenko, that follows the Horizon event. --What do I need to use it? You need to save Kaidan on Virmire in ME1 and have him alive in your ME2. You also need to download this .zip and follow the instructions. --Can I use it for my femShep? Yes, you can, but only if you HAD NO ROMANCE with Kaidan in ME1. NB! From what I know 'fresh' ME2 femShep goes as 'romanced' by default, check your saves with gibbed. --Can I use it for my male Shepard? Yes, you can. --Can I use it for my male Shepard with an imported gay-modded ME1 romance? No, you can't. Game technically knows you as a femShep who had romanced Kaidan. --Does it conflict with origin, steam, DLCs or EA authorization?It should not. It was tested on several legal copies, one of which had all the DLCs installed. It works. It was not tested on steam version of ME2. ME2_Kaidan_Horizon_letter.zip(contains altered .tlk, original .tlk (just in case) and readme.txt with more details and instructions.) Feel free to ask questions and report any issues or typos. Special thanks go to:Kunari, the co-writer Amirit, the co-tester Mimi (Stephanie), for her critics&support
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Post by SpiritVanguard on Aug 19, 2016 21:47:05 GMT
As much as I was devastated about my first Horizon, I had always thought that it fits the character. I appreciate it when NPCs have their own views, even if it's like Horizon or DA2 ending. It was depressing, sure, but it was meant to be like that, right? It's much better than that 'hardening' thing they were tampering with in DAO and ME1, the very idea that a character can be changed with a few words never seemed right to me. The Shep's lines are atrocious during most of the scene however! 'Hi, how are ya, don't be angry' - meeeeh! Horizon also perfectly fits the romance-relations arc, it's one of the crucial points. Virmire, Ilus, Alchera, Horizon, Earth-Mars, Priority: Citadel, London. Kaidan is consistant and independent. Probably the most independent and non-hero-centric character throughout the series, where rest of the crew normally goes 'yes, Shepard, aye-aye, Commander'. He dislikes the descision to abandon the Council in ME1, he follows the Alchera Order in ME2 opening, he has all the reasons to be mad on Horizon, he willingly accepts the spectre position instead of returning to Normandy (no matter how deep his feelings for Shep at this point are), and then there is that elevator scene, where he also does what he feels right (no matter the cost). My issue isn't that Kaidan had a contrary position to Shep, as I said in one of my posts I'm ok with the idea of a conflict. The execution of it was terrible and unbelievable for me. It felt entirely contrived until ME3 when he gets to explain a little more about what he was feeling. That's when it makes more sense but by then it's too little too late for a lot of people who have already written him off. I agree with neonmoth in that it felt more like they were just writing the VS off (for whatever reason) and I hated that. I also like the conflict in the romance rather than it just being a smooth road like Liara. She loves Shep always and forever, but Kaidan(/Ashely) have that wrench thrown in there and I just... feel like it gives the relationship a chance to grow? I'm not dissing Liara, I thought her romance was fine, just not my favorite.
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Post by Chiantirose on Aug 19, 2016 23:20:46 GMT
My first Horizon reaction was like this: I was certain I did something wrong and found the BSN for the first time *swoon*. After I found out Kaidan wouldn't be joining me no matter what, I was kind of angry how it played out, how you can't really explain yourself, but also that Kaidan was just not letting Shepard explain really either. So the whole thing was a mess in eyes, Horizon is still my favorite mission in ME2 (not a big fan of the game) I do think that the tension due to Horizon made the romance feel more real in ME3.
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Post by dalinne on Aug 19, 2016 23:31:48 GMT
My first Horizon reaction was like this: I was certain I did something wrong and found the BSN for the first time *swoon*. After I found out Kaidan wouldn't be joining me no matter what, I was kind of angry how it played out, how you can't really explain yourself, but also that Kaidan was just not letting Shepard explain really either. So the whole thing was a mess in eyes, Horizon is still my favorite mission in ME2 (not a big fan of the game) I do think that the tension due to Horizon made the romance feel more real in ME3. You give me inspiration. Horizon, ME2:Kaidan: Wait... you work for Cerberus now? Shepard:
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Post by fraggle on Aug 20, 2016 11:20:20 GMT
It occurs to me I haven't posted in here before (I think ). I liked Kaidan ever since I started playing ME1 2,5 years back. Horizon didn't hit me very hard because I found him quite believable, and Shepard's writing is what makes me cringe Also I played MShep and he wasn't my LI (yet ). I dumped both Liara and Miranda for him in my initial playthrough in ME3 (I romanced Liara because I Virmire'd Ash and I romanced Miranda just so I could dump her later on ). Good times. Kaidan is still one of my favourite characters, and he's incredibly well written in ME3. I loved the Cerberus confrontation on Mars, and that he slowly trusts Shepard again, and begins to see that not all Cerberus personel are bad people. Takes character to admit something like that (which Ash afaik never does). I have not yet played a complete romance with FemShep and him, but I will at some point
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Post by BevH on Aug 21, 2016 16:13:32 GMT
My first Horizon reaction was like this: I was certain I did something wrong and found the BSN for the first time *swoon*. After I found out Kaidan wouldn't be joining me no matter what, I was kind of angry how it played out, how you can't really explain yourself, but also that Kaidan was just not letting Shepard explain really either. So the whole thing was a mess in eyes, Horizon is still my favorite mission in ME2 (not a big fan of the game) I do think that the tension due to Horizon made the romance feel more real in ME3. You've hit the nail on the head for me about this. It wasn't so much Kaidan's reaction to Shep working with Cerberus, it was the fact that Shep wasn't given a chance to say ANYTHING in her defense. It's not like she didn't try to contact him, but she was stonewalled at every turn. Not even Anderson offered to get a message to Kaidan for her. Grrr...
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Post by Beregond5 on Aug 21, 2016 18:07:41 GMT
You've hit the nail on the head for me about this. It wasn't so much Kaidan's reaction to Shep working with Cerberus, it was the fact that Shep wasn't given a chance to say ANYTHING in her defense. It's not like she didn't try to contact him, but she was stonewalled at every turn. Not even Anderson offered to get a message to Kaidan for her. Grrr... I'm kind of miffed with Liara (besides Anderson, that is) for that reason. She knew what had happened to Shepard better than anyone; she handed the body over to Cerberus. Why didn't she try to contact anyone else about what had happened? Even if she wasn't sure that Shepard could actually be revived at first, what about afterwards, when the rumours about Shepard being alive started circulating? It feels like she had got so obsessed with getting revenge on the Shadow Broker, that she ignored everything else. As much as I sympathise with her plight, I think her teammates deserved better...
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Post by opuspace on Aug 22, 2016 3:10:48 GMT
I'm kind of miffed with Liara (besides Anderson, that is) for that reason. She knew what had happened to Shepard better than anyone; she handed the body over to Cerberus. Why didn't she try to contact anyone else about what had happened? Even if she wasn't sure that Shepard could actually be revived at first, what about afterwards, when the rumours about Shepard being alive started circulating? It feels like she had got so obsessed with getting revenge on the Shadow Broker, that she ignored everything else. As much as I sympathise with her plight, I think her teammates deserved better... What gets a little scary is that she knows Tali had a crush on Male Shep but kept it to herself. If Shep romanced Liara first, she admits that she may have been naive but she wasn't stupid. She was invested in not adding to the competition. That makes things really uncomfortable in the implication that her not telling a romanced Kaidan/Ashley means she let that drama on Horizon happen on purpose.
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Post by Beregond5 on Aug 22, 2016 6:59:23 GMT
What gets a little scary is that she knows Tali had a crush on Male Shep but kept it to herself. If Shep romanced Liara first, she admits that she may have been naive but she wasn't stupid. She was invested in not adding to the competition. That makes things really uncomfortable in the implication that her not telling a romanced Kaidan/Ashley means she let that drama on Horizon happen on purpose. Yes, I got that vibe as well, even if it could be argued that it was unintentional from the writers' part. Add in and the scene in LotSB where she can actually blame Kaidan or Ash for their short-sightedness, and it makes you wish you could point out her own mishandling of the situation. On the other hand, having Kaidan and Shepard being able to work things out in spite of all these snags, even if it takes till ME3 to do that, kind of makes it all the more gratifying.
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Post by opuspace on Aug 22, 2016 16:03:22 GMT
Yes, I got that vibe as well, even if it could be argued that it was unintentional from the writers' part. Add in and the scene in LotSB where she can actually blame Kaidan or Ash for their short-sightedness, and it makes you wish you could point out her own mishandling of the situation. On the other hand, having Kaidan and Shepard being able to work things out in spite of all these snags, even if it takes till ME3 to do that, kind of makes it all the more gratifying. I'm really grateful that they did a much better job for Kaidan in ME3. He was back to his rational, reasonable self and it was cathartic to get to reconcile with him. And he gives my Vanguard her Reave ability back! She missed it so much!
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Post by Kaidan Fan on Aug 22, 2016 17:33:55 GMT
I agree that Shepards lines were the worst. I've said before that I could understand Kaidans anger because I'd done all the Cerberus missions in ME1 and I hated them. I wanted to be angry with him! But the fact that Shepard couldn't explain things left me feeling confused at how it all went down. Like Chiantirose said, I, too, thought I'd done something wrong and messed the scene up. I also really liked in ME3 how he comes around to trusting again. *sigh* He really is the best! Also, hey, BevH! Long time no see!
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Post by yan on Aug 22, 2016 21:21:41 GMT
I took this picture now for you girls. Kaidan at his most vulnerable moment. =p
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Post by dalinne on Aug 22, 2016 21:40:10 GMT
I was going to say I didn't see the picture, but then I quoted you and I can see it. Cuteeee
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Post by aoibhealfae on Aug 23, 2016 19:27:15 GMT
Will catch up on the discussions later after the forums shut down. Was trying to finish up my current playthrough as fast as I can today... awww my cuties...
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Post by yan on Aug 23, 2016 19:36:19 GMT
Hot shepard
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Post by BevH on Aug 24, 2016 3:57:02 GMT
I agree that Shepards lines were the worst. I've said before that I could understand Kaidans anger because I'd done all the Cerberus missions in ME1 and I hated them. I wanted to be angry with him! But the fact that Shepard couldn't explain things left me feeling confused at how it all went down. Like Chiantirose said, I, too, thought I'd done something wrong and messed the scene up. I also really liked in ME3 how he comes around to trusting again. *sigh* He really is the best! Also, hey, BevH ! Long time no see! Glad I migrated here. So many familiar faces! *waves*
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Post by corkyspetals on Aug 24, 2016 18:09:11 GMT
Well, to metagame a little, they needed an excuse to prevent me from reuniting with my beloved Kaidan cut out the character from the story. If Shep can't explain, Kaidan won't come back. It was really annoying. I was looking forward to recruiting Kaidan and doing a loyalty mission with him. And that didn't happen. Although he did a good job of showing me his loyalty in ME3 .
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Post by corkyspetals on Aug 24, 2016 19:03:48 GMT
Why did they record Mshenko dialog in ME1? I read somewhere they didn't plan on using it, but they did it anyway. I don't get it. Is it standard practice in games to record dialog they don't plan on using? Or is is a wishy washy way of explaining that they waited until the last minute to decide if they'd include Mshenko romance?
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Post by Kaidan Fan on Aug 24, 2016 20:17:21 GMT
Why did they record Mshenko dialog in ME1? I read somewhere they didn't plan on using it, but they did it anyway. I don't get it. Is it standard practice in games to record dialog they don't plan on using? Or is is a wishy washy way of explaining that they waited until the last minute to decide if they'd include Mshenko romance? linkIt's towards the bottom of the page in the Trivia section. As part of a workaround for a programming issue, Mark Meer voiced all of the lines for the Kaidan romance in Mass Effect even though the romance was intended to be exclusive to female Shepard.[5] It is possible for a male Shepard to have a romance with Kaidan through the use of save edits, although some of the dialogue options are missing and Kaidan's dialogue will occasionally refer to Shepard as female.[6]
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Post by corkyspetals on Aug 25, 2016 6:43:18 GMT
As part of a workaround for a programming issue, Mark Meer voiced all of the lines for the Kaidan romance in Mass Effect even though the romance was intended to be exclusive to female Shepard
That's the explanation offered by Bioware. I guess I don't understand game programming enough to see how having them record all the lines could possible be a workaround for anything. I mean, why record Meer and Hale saying lines that Shep would never actually say? Aren't there lines that only an Mshep would say to a romanced Kaidan and a Femshep would only say to a romanced Ashley? (Not Mshep to Ashley and Femshep to Kaidan)
If they needed placekeeper sound files, they could have just had the pizza delivery guy read them for a $20 and a free copy of the game. Or recorded a washing machine.
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Post by SpiritVanguard on Aug 25, 2016 7:09:34 GMT
As part of a workaround for a programming issue, Mark Meer voiced all of the lines for the Kaidan romance in Mass Effect even though the romance was intended to be exclusive to female Shepard That's the explanation offered by Bioware. I guess I don't understand game programming enough to see how having them record all the lines could possible be a workaround for anything. I mean, why record Meer and Hale saying lines that Shep would never actually say? Aren't there lines that only an Mshep would say to a romanced Kaidan and a Femshep would only say to a romanced Ashley? (Not Mshep to Ashley and Femshep to Kaidan) If they needed placekeeper sound files, they could have just had the pizza delivery guy read them for a $20 and a free copy of the game. Or recorded a washing machine. There is that save-cheat line to Liara where mShep says he's only interested in men, which fShep doesn't have the option to say... I'm not sure how that's a work-around. But I'm the same in that I don't know crap about this stuff either.
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Post by corkyspetals on Aug 25, 2016 8:05:42 GMT
Now if M/M and F/F romances were originally allowed in the game for Kaidan or Ashley, I can see why there would be a need to make a workaround so that final game only retained the hetero Kaidan/Ashley options.
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Post by aoibhealfae on Aug 25, 2016 8:06:07 GMT
The last time I play this scene was last year and its still so painful and heartbreaking. Turned off the music and just listen to both of them trying to keep their tears at bay. And then he just dump his two years worth of grief on me... "I can't lose you again." Anyway, I like that Kaidan is taller than FemShep. And every Alliance soldiers in the vicinity saw them smooching and getting all touchy feely...
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