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Post by CrutchCricket on Jun 27, 2017 14:33:08 GMT
I think that the title of the documentary is a mistake, as the majority of the people who would benefit the most from watching it will have a knee-jerk reaction to "red pill", and completely disregard it without any further inspection. That said, apart from that, this documentary was pretty good. I think that's kinda the point. Less knee-jerking, more listening. The true "lost causes" will knee-jerk and stomp off at "MRA" anyway. Having them around for a few min longer wouldn't change much. That being said, I still need to make time and see this. This week, hopefully.
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Post by o Ventus on Jun 27, 2017 14:42:21 GMT
I think that the title of the documentary is a mistake, as the majority of the people who would benefit the most from watching it will have a knee-jerk reaction to "red pill", and completely disregard it without any further inspection. That said, apart from that, this documentary was pretty good. Its not so much the title, more the whole "Men's Rights" movement to begin with. What?
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Post by fiannawolf on Jun 27, 2017 18:42:45 GMT
Gonna finish watching it after work tonight. Its pretty interesting stuff so far.
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Post by Ocelot on Jun 27, 2017 18:51:03 GMT
Its not so much the title, more the whole "Men's Rights" movement to begin with. What? I find the whole concept of Men's Right's movement to be utterly ridiculous. Are we men so oppressed that we actually need movements like that? I can understand feminism to a certain degree, aside from the extreme bullshit we get alot these days, but men's rights? Don't make me laugh.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 27, 2017 19:01:38 GMT
I find the whole concept of Men's Right's movement to be utterly ridiculous. Are we men so oppressed that we actually need movements like that? I can understand feminism to a certain degree, aside from the extreme bullshit we get alot these days, but men's rights? Don't make me laugh.
Men arent equal to women, and women arent equal to men... theres a need for both the main reason I wouldnt consider myself a feminist isnt because I pretend that theyre supremacists who hate men, and neither do I listen to propaganda... but they just dont do enough for mens rights in my opinion, they focus on one side... which is all good for that one side, but there are other people in the world too... and I try to focus on both I guess, im never a fan of things which focus on one particular group
I understand the need for mens rights (although ill say its SLIGHTLY less needed than womens rights, men arent the subject of the same stuff that women are), but as I said... they definitely arent equal to each other, there are always ways to improve
People just need to listen each other... EVERYONE needs to listen to each other, because underneath the political s**t and stupidity there are some good points... you just need to look past the way they say things and listen to what theyre actually saying... which can be essentially never ending ridiculousness for some in subjects like this, but SOMEWHERE there is even the TINIEST amount of sense
That being said, morons will always be morons who wont listen to each other but expect to be listened to anyway
I dont see why people act like mens rights movements and feminism are on opposite sides of things, they arent... they want EXACTLY the same things, equal treatment... its just like stop complaining about each other, stop attacking each other, stop acting like children, start working together and lets make the world a better place for everyone, ok???
A group of LGBTQ activists, feminists and mens right people would be able to make some real change in the world... but for some unknown reason that wont ever be a thing
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Post by Ocelot on Jun 27, 2017 19:14:36 GMT
I find the whole concept of Men's Right's movement to be utterly ridiculous. Are we men so oppressed that we actually need movements like that? I can understand feminism to a certain degree, aside from the extreme bullshit we get alot these days, but men's rights? Don't make me laugh. The funny thing is that the movie specifically talks about this statement, the accepted idea among feminists and leftists in general that "Men's rights" are ridiculous. The woman that made the movie held an opinion similar to yours.
But then she heard their sob stories about beign oppressed by society and changed her mind? Lol
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Post by DomeWing333 on Jun 27, 2017 19:15:01 GMT
I think that the title of the documentary is a mistake, as the majority of the people who would benefit the most from watching it will have a knee-jerk reaction to "red pill", and completely disregard it without any further inspection. That said, apart from that, this documentary was pretty good. That's true for so goddamn much of the discourse in this area. Every needs to be so provocative and incendiary that any actual message gets lost in the shouting over titles and connotation. "Why feminists are deluded," "why MRAs are hate groups," etc. It undercuts the ability to give the benefit of the doubt to any genuine attempt to establish a dialectic between the two sides.
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Post by Ocelot on Jun 27, 2017 20:01:16 GMT
But then she heard their sob stories about beign oppressed by society and changed her mind? Lol Sob stories or not, all she did was listen, apparently she decided that at least some of it had merit. But you would call it "sob stories" without even listening, and consider yourself enlightened for it, how very open minded of you.
The fact that all the people that are agreeing with it, are exactly the ones I expected to agree with it already gives me a pretty good idea what to expect from the documentary.
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Post by Fen'Harel Faceman on Jun 27, 2017 20:14:16 GMT
Sob stories or not, all she did was listen, apparently she decided that at least some of it had merit. But you would call it "sob stories" without even listening, and consider yourself enlightened for it, how very open minded of you.
The fact that all the people that are agreeing with it, are exactly the ones I expected to agree with it already gives me a pretty good idea what to expect from the documentary.
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Post by DomeWing333 on Jun 27, 2017 20:17:21 GMT
I haven't seen the documentary myself, but I know that men do face sexist discrimination in some aspects of society, particularly when it concerns children. Not just as far as parental custody and child support are concerned (although those are major ones), but men are also subject to greater social scrutiny when being around children. I hear stories of single dads simply escorting their kid around a supermarket and being approached by strangers on suspicion of being a kidnapper or pedophile.
Granted, you can argue that some of this is reasonable, considering that these kinds of crimes are far more prevalent among men than women, but it still casts an unfortunate shadow over the institution of fatherhood if merely being around your child can invite that kind of scorn. It's an absolutely valid complaint that men have, no different than the racial profiling of Muslims at the airport or of blacks by police.
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Post by o Ventus on Jun 27, 2017 20:21:57 GMT
I find the whole concept of Men's Right's movement to be utterly ridiculous. Are we men so oppressed that we actually need movements like that? I can understand feminism to a certain degree, aside from the extreme bullshit we get alot these days, but men's rights? Don't make me laugh. You're absolutely fucking kidding me, right?
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Post by Ocelot on Jun 27, 2017 20:23:06 GMT
I find the whole concept of Men's Right's movement to be utterly ridiculous. Are we men so oppressed that we actually need movements like that? I can understand feminism to a certain degree, aside from the extreme bullshit we get alot these days, but men's rights? Don't make me laugh. You're absolutely fucking kidding me, right? That's what I'm asking you.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 27, 2017 20:33:56 GMT
Sob stories or not, all she did was listen, apparently she decided that at least some of it had merit. But you would call it "sob stories" without even listening, and consider yourself enlightened for it, how very open minded of you.
The fact that all the people that are agreeing with it, are exactly the ones I expected to agree with it already gives me a pretty good idea what to expect from the documentary.
Ill kinda agree with you on that, not with your point as a whole though
Some here dont care about listening to people or treating people with respect. They just like the video because it agrees with them to be honest
I havent even watched the video, I just say what I think and although this thread has completely gained my disapproval for being outside the politics thread, there are some people who are making some good points... whether it will carry on is another matter
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Post by smilesja on Jun 27, 2017 20:38:00 GMT
I find the whole concept of Men's Right's movement to be utterly ridiculous. Are we men so oppressed that we actually need movements like that? I can understand feminism to a certain degree, aside from the extreme bullshit we get alot these days, but men's rights? Don't make me laugh.
Men arent equal to women, and women arent equal to men... theres a need for both the main reason I wouldnt consider myself a feminist isnt because I pretend that theyre supremacists who hate men, and neither do I listen to propaganda... but they just dont do enough for mens rights in my opinion, they focus on one side... which is all good for that one side, but there are other people in the world too... and I try to focus on both I guess, im never a fan of things which focus on one particular group
I understand the need for mens rights (although ill say its SLIGHTLY less needed than womens rights, men arent the subject of the same stuff that women are), but as I said... they definitely arent equal to each other, there are always ways to improve
People just need to listen each other... EVERYONE needs to listen to each other, because underneath the political s**t and stupidity there are some good points... you just need to look past the way they say things and listen to what theyre actually saying... which can be essentially never ending ridiculousness for some in subjects like this, but SOMEWHERE there is even the TINIEST amount of sense
That being said, morons will always be morons who wont listen to each other but expect to be listened to anyway
I dont see why people act like mens rights movements and feminism are on opposite sides of things, they arent... they want EXACTLY the same things, equal treatment... its just like stop complaining about each other, stop attacking each other, stop acting like children, start working together and lets make the world a better place for everyone, ok???
A group of LGBTQ activists, feminists and mens right people would be able to make some real change in the world... but for some unknown reason that wont ever be a thing
We may not understand each other because of mentality like this:
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Post by smilesja on Jun 27, 2017 20:39:11 GMT
You're absolutely fucking kidding me, right? That's what I'm asking you. Do you even understand the double standards that men face today?
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Post by Ocelot on Jun 27, 2017 20:42:15 GMT
That's what I'm asking you. Do you even understand the double standards that men face today? By all means, enlighten me on these double standards.
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Post by smilesja on Jun 27, 2017 20:46:20 GMT
Do you even understand the double standards that men face today? By all means, enlighten me on these double standards. Child custody, lack of sexual assault rooms for men or even domestic abuse help. It's not only in the video, but it's debated by some men today.
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Post by DomeWing333 on Jun 27, 2017 20:51:19 GMT
www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/5izk5b/what_are_some_common_forms_of_sexism_that_men_face/www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/5j2e70/what_are_some_common_forms_of_sexism_women_face/^While anecdotal, these are good resources for those among feminists and MRAs seeking reasons to be empathetic toward the other side. And reading through the accounts, one thing that sticks out is how often discrimination takes place when one sex is seen to have "trespassed" on what has traditionally been deemed as the domain of the other (men being nannies, nurses, or showing emotion; women being IT specialists, mechanics, or simply making a lot of money). A major crux of the complaints from both MRAs and feminist groups seem to be the stringency with which gender roles are enforced in their respective social spheres. And indeed, if anything can be said to be the central aim of both 3rd wave feminism and MRA groups, it's the disillusion of gender roles as they have been traditionally defined--or at least advocating greater tolerance of their subversion. Everyone treats it as X against Y, but it's the same fight: the fight to allow people to be who they are without having judgment cast on them because of their sex/gender.
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Post by Ocelot on Jun 27, 2017 20:51:24 GMT
By all means, enlighten me on these double standards. Child custody, lack of sexual assault rooms for men or even domestic abuse help. It's not only in the video, but it's debated by some men today. 1: Children are generally closer to their mother, so they tend to get child custody because of that. 2: Lol male sexual assault is a thing? Don't tell me males actually get raped by woman on a daily basis. I don't know what country you live in but in mine its possible for everyone to get help when it comes to that. Though the idea of males facing domestic abuse kind of makes me laugh at the same time. They can't even stand up to their own partner? Plus their is always divorce options.
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Post by Arijon van Goyen on Jun 27, 2017 20:52:14 GMT
By all means, enlighten me on these double standards. Child custody, lack of sexual assault rooms for men or even domestic abuse help. It's not only in the video, but it's debated by some men today. Hey, men are evil and they deserve it, cuz muh patriarchy. All men are literally like Saudi Arabia's men. There is no way in English language countries things be any different. :yara:
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Post by Deleted on Jun 27, 2017 20:52:57 GMT
Men arent equal to women, and women arent equal to men... theres a need for both the main reason I wouldnt consider myself a feminist isnt because I pretend that theyre supremacists who hate men, and neither do I listen to propaganda... but they just dont do enough for mens rights in my opinion, they focus on one side... which is all good for that one side, but there are other people in the world too... and I try to focus on both I guess, im never a fan of things which focus on one particular group
I understand the need for mens rights (although ill say its SLIGHTLY less needed than womens rights, men arent the subject of the same stuff that women are), but as I said... they definitely arent equal to each other, there are always ways to improve
People just need to listen each other... EVERYONE needs to listen to each other, because underneath the political s**t and stupidity there are some good points... you just need to look past the way they say things and listen to what theyre actually saying... which can be essentially never ending ridiculousness for some in subjects like this, but SOMEWHERE there is even the TINIEST amount of sense
That being said, morons will always be morons who wont listen to each other but expect to be listened to anyway
I dont see why people act like mens rights movements and feminism are on opposite sides of things, they arent... they want EXACTLY the same things, equal treatment... its just like stop complaining about each other, stop attacking each other, stop acting like children, start working together and lets make the world a better place for everyone, ok???
A group of LGBTQ activists, feminists and mens right people would be able to make some real change in the world... but for some unknown reason that wont ever be a thing
We may not understand each other because of mentality like this:
Partly... men definitely have the advantage, always have, but they definitely arent all powerful, they arent all in charge, and there are some ways when society makes them fall short when it comes to equality
BUT there are more mindsets other than that one which cause stuff, there are lots of people who just want to shoot each other down instead of raising each other up. There are people on all sides who think that the other gender is somehow evil or lesser... people need to understand that just because something agrees with you doesnt mean you should throw your support behind it... taking your own side of things is a thing, and you dont have to support people who think that everyone is anything less than perfectly equal - THATS the way things should be. It shouldnt matter whether there are more men than women in charge. It shouldnt matter what people choose to do in their spare time. People shouldnt make judgements about people based on WHAT they are, they should make them based on WHO they are. People shouldnt act like they know so many people based on a few bad examples. People should work together to make things better. Men want equality, women want equality, LGBTQ people want - and are definitely in need of - equality. Everyone wants to have the same rights, equal treatment... its all EXACTLY the same goal.
If people put their own opinions, pride, egos and selfish desires aside for even a moment theyd realize that the world isnt made a better place for anyone if they constantly are attacking people of different viewpoints, demonizing them, making them sound weird or crazy or unnatural... if people just thought "how can I make the world a better place? Not just for me, but for EVERYONE" then things would be a lot different
Buuuttttt the world is what it is, and it sucks, people just prefer to attack each other for some reason, and its basically why I avoid lots of things like this... I tend to disapprove of everyone
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Post by smilesja on Jun 27, 2017 20:53:58 GMT
Child custody, lack of sexual assault rooms for men or even domestic abuse help. It's not only in the video, but it's debated by some men today. 1: Children are generally closer to their mother, so they tend to get child custody because of that. 2: Lol male sexual assault is a thing? Don't tell me males actually get raped by woman on a daily basis. I don't know what country you live in but in mine its possible for everyone to get help when it comes to that. Though the i dea of males facing domestic abuse kind of makes me laugh at the same time. They can't even stand up to their own partner? Plus their is always divorce options. That statement is why men are often afraid to report their assault. Societies expectations often prevent them from coming forth.
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Post by Ocelot on Jun 27, 2017 20:55:43 GMT
1: Children are generally closer to their mother, so they tend to get child custody because of that. 2: Lol male sexual assault is a thing? Don't tell me males actually get raped by woman on a daily basis. I don't know what country you live in but in mine its possible for everyone to get help when it comes to that. Though the i dea of males facing domestic abuse kind of makes me laugh at the same time. They can't even stand up to their own partner? Plus their is always divorce options. That statement is why men are often afraid to report their assault. Societies expectations often prevent them from coming forth. The males only have themselves to blame for that with their Alpha behaviour.
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Post by Ocelot on Jun 27, 2017 20:57:53 GMT
The fact that all the people that are agreeing with it, are exactly the ones I expected to agree with it already gives me a pretty good idea what to expect from the documentary. *shrug* Feel free to stay in your comfort zone, don't entertain ideas that you believe that you might disagree with. In a less partisan political environment there would be nothing controversial about this documentary. She was a feminist and she's still very much a feminist in her ideology, all that changed is that she stopped automatically dismissing claims that there's inequality that and problems on the side of men too.
I mean a "death gap", a "suicide gap", and "homelessness gap" are at the very least just as serious of an issue as the mythical "wage gap".
And since we reached the point at which there are regulations made against crucial problems such as "man-spreading", it's probably time to take a step back and reevaluate the issue at hand.
Note: I haven't actually watched the movie yet, but I did watch an interview or two she did about it.
Oh I've entertained plenty of ideas over the years. Its one of the reasons why I went from Left to beign centric. Its just that this is one of those cases where I simply can't help but facepalm at it.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 27, 2017 20:58:30 GMT
Child custody, lack of sexual assault rooms for men or even domestic abuse help. It's not only in the video, but it's debated by some men today. 1: Children are generally closer to their mother, so they tend to get child custody because of that. 2: Lol male sexual assault is a thing? Don't tell me males actually get raped by woman on a daily basis. I don't know what country you live in but in mine its possible for everyone to get help when it comes to that. Though the idea of males facing domestic abuse kind of makes me laugh at the same time. They can't even stand up to their own partner? Plus their is always divorce options.
If a man was drugged, tied down and forced into sex by another person, what would that be???
And yes, men are domestically abused. Both men being raped and domestic abuse happens less often than it does for females, but it still happens. Not all men are strong. And even if they were, love comes into play often in situations of domestic abuse. You forgive the abusers because you love them, because you think that they would never intentionally do it, or its just a rare occurrence when they get especially emotional... it isnt just limited to women, men go through it too. Its just the way the world works.
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