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Post by Deleted on May 30, 2017 19:56:49 GMT
Childlike to me because it's once again forcing you into a no win situation. Whether it's lesser of two evils or working with Tim they tend to like to box the player into scenarios that in real life different options might exist. Working with Tim you have no way to tell others your side of the story with any kind of clarity. That you may be using him as much as he is using you. That you don't really want to be there at all but colonists are going missing. Here, you are boxed in to working with one or the other, neither really are ideal. Lesser of two evils. Perhaps trying to stabilize it would be better but doing that at a different time seems like the better choice than getting involved in the mess that exists there now. As a player, I don't really see the logic of even bothering with Kadara at this point in time. It's a shady place filled with shady people. Sure there are some good ones there, but for now, does it make sense to get into bed with either of these two? Yeah, sorry - I don't see it. Every branching narrative limits options by necessity, and I think this one was fairly well-written. Having to make a difficult "no-win" choice is a very adult endeavor imho, and so is temporarily sacrificing some things in order to achieve higher goals. It's immature lazy writing where you are forced into a situation where ultimately you really will have no say. Reyes cannot be killed. Not that killing him is necessary but he has plot armor. The no win situation is that what you decide will not matter. Tim becomes a horror in ME3 whether you give him the reaper or not. You have to deal with some version of the rachni whether or not you killed her. I could go on, but here once again you have to pick a side. Why bother? Based on Reyes plot armor there is a good chance he will take over kadara anyway and things will be as they are in his ending but probably made worse knowing BW. And there is equally as good a chance that he will become an enemy or antagonist at some point if they make him a Tim 2.0 which many already expect. So it is a no win in that you are forced to waste time there when it looks like whatever you do already will not matter. No win. Short term perhaps it gives the illusion of being better. Long term? Reyes cannot die and looks like the better choice which BW would probably not let stand after what they did to Tim, another shady bastard. That is not mature writing. It's setting a stage where you play along but in the end your endeavor was pointless. They chose for you. Set it up to look good for now but there is an ultimate outcome that has already been determined. If not, Reyes could die. It's not creative. It's not intelligent. It's just a complete no win. Not a no win as in difficult choices. Sure there are plenty of them. That's not the issue. The issue is that you are forced into siding and it's clear they have specific plans. If Reyes didn't have plot armor it would have been well written. That he does drops it down several notches because they already have plans for him which very likely might undo your choice even if you choose him. It basically drags you into a situation where you have the illusion of control but ultimately no control at all. A situation that you might have been best to avoid because if they make him a Tim 2.0, that came back to haunt you. Not getting involved would have been best there because then he would not have had all that reaper tech or access to a baby human reaper no matter what you decide. With Reyes, if they copy ME2 which sadly it looks like they might, he could become another antagonist or bare minimum shadier than he already is. He is a well written character. Both are. And the decision is a good one, but clearly it's already been decided in the future what the ultimate outcome of kadara is. That level of predictability is immature writing. No surprises. A few guesses what will happen. One of them will be the future and now it's predictable, just like exaltation was. |
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Post by Reorte on May 30, 2017 19:59:33 GMT
There is tons of evidence against Sloane. She kicks out anyone that doesn't kiss her ring into almost certain death. She is your basic drug dealing, protection racket mob boss. A choice between a straightforward crook who is at least honest in her own way, and a less despotic but slimier guy who won't go around lording it over everyone and beating them down to push himself up, but looks quite willing to do anything to anyone, friend or foe, if it'll further his goals. Given the choice he'll take the friendlier path I think but has no qualms about going in the other direction. My grumbles about no win aside it's an interesting choice. Bad but predictable vs someone with fewer boundaries. |
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Post by wellsoul2 on May 30, 2017 20:10:05 GMT
There is tons of evidence against Sloane. She kicks out anyone that doesn't kiss her ring into almost certain death. She is your basic drug dealing, protection racket mob boss. A choice between a straightforward crook who is at least honest in her own way, and a less despotic but slimier guy who won't go around lording it over everyone and beating them down to push himself up, but looks quite willing to do anything to anyone, friend or foe, if it'll further his goals. Given the choice he'll take the friendlier path I think but has no qualms about going in the other direction. My grumbles about no win aside it's an interesting choice. Bad but predictable vs someone with fewer boundaries. I still don't get it. Sloane took all these people with her from the Nexus. She then kicks out anyone that doesn't pay her or can't pay her. That is mostly certain death when Kadara's water is undrinkable. Even the people that live in the port live in fear if not part of the gang. She is as bad as you can be without total chaos. In contrast Reyes has far to go to catch up. |
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Post by Deleted on May 30, 2017 20:11:48 GMT
There is tons of evidence against Sloane. She kicks out anyone that doesn't kiss her ring into almost certain death. She is your basic drug dealing, protection racket mob boss. A choice between a straightforward crook who is at least honest in her own way, and a less despotic but slimier guy who won't go around lording it over everyone and beating them down to push himself up, but looks quite willing to do anything to anyone, friend or foe, if it'll further his goals. Given the choice he'll take the friendlier path I think but has no qualms about going in the other direction. My grumbles about no win aside it's an interesting choice. Bad but predictable vs someone with fewer boundaries. My concern is that Reyes as he stands now is a good character. Well written. Multifaceted. Like Tim was. We saw what they did to tim. Tim in ME2 was ideal right up to the end. Then you saw exactly who he was. From there you knew it would be trouble all the way and his character devolved from shady and hard to know exactly where he stood and if he ever cared at all or if he only wanted power all alone to being a power mad loon. Reyes is, right now, at that sweet spot. Sort of like a Tim before we met tim, when he probably did still have noble intentions even if power hungry back then. He could be as bad as tim was down the line, but his motives look at least mixed with him caring to some degree about people and keeping things safe. If they decide to go full throttle and bring him over to the dark side, so many people already expect it that it would be such a predictable and bad writing choice. And likely it wouldn't be very interesting given that all he really could be is a crime lord. Tim was involved in more interesting stuff at least. |
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Post by Beerfish on May 30, 2017 20:13:44 GMT
I read the book before getting to that part of the game so it was very easy for me to let Sloane get her comeuppance.
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Post by Deleted on May 30, 2017 20:16:54 GMT
A choice between a straightforward crook who is at least honest in her own way, and a less despotic but slimier guy who won't go around lording it over everyone and beating them down to push himself up, but looks quite willing to do anything to anyone, friend or foe, if it'll further his goals. Given the choice he'll take the friendlier path I think but has no qualms about going in the other direction. My grumbles about no win aside it's an interesting choice. Bad but predictable vs someone with fewer boundaries. I still don't get it. Sloane took all these people with her from the Nexus. She then kicks out anyone that doesn't pay her or can't pay her. That is mostly certain death when Kadara's water is undrinkable. Even the people that live in the port live in fear if not part of the gang. She is as bad as you can be without total chaos. In contrast Reyes has far to go to catch up. The rub is that reyes is shady. I pick him because he is better than Sloane to me. But he cannot be killed which means they have plans for him and likely not to make him a wonderful ally who is the criminal with a heart of gold. They could, but more likely they would ruin him. Rather than keeping him operating in this grey area. Or they could maybe make him like Aria, who stayed constant. That would be much better. It's hard to know which way they will go but it feels like odds are they will make him evil and power mad because that's their thing. |
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Post by Iakus on May 30, 2017 20:44:32 GMT
A choice between a straightforward crook who is at least honest in her own way, and a less despotic but slimier guy who won't go around lording it over everyone and beating them down to push himself up, but looks quite willing to do anything to anyone, friend or foe, if it'll further his goals. Given the choice he'll take the friendlier path I think but has no qualms about going in the other direction. My grumbles about no win aside it's an interesting choice. Bad but predictable vs someone with fewer boundaries. I still don't get it. Sloane took all these people with her from the Nexus. She then kicks out anyone that doesn't pay her or can't pay her. That is mostly certain death when Kadara's water is undrinkable. Even the people that live in the port live in fear if not part of the gang. She is as bad as you can be without total chaos. In contrast Reyes has far to go to catch up. She's also managed to Mark Watney a colony which managed to survive on an absolute hellhole of a world. She's not a particularly nice person, her rules are both strict and brutal. But she's competent and lets you know where you stand with her. |
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Post by wellsoul2 on May 30, 2017 21:13:26 GMT
The game is kind of stupid though.
Once I get out of town in Kadara plenty of Outcasts (and Collective) are shooting at me. Guess these Collective ones don't know I'm the pathfinder. Anyway, I kill them all...just like Kett.
So I guess the player has no problem with that.
So Sloane and her lieutenant come to fight the last Kett outside the port.
Why do they assume I won't shoot them? Makes no sense..I've already killed many outcasts..guess there are no witnesses.
Video games are funny that way..in a more reality based game I could just kill them..hey I'd even warn them unlike Reyes.
In the game rules..I just don't see why Sloane is any different than the guy in the next tower who has shot at me.
Strangely I go back to the Nexus and rumor says I killed Sloane and except for one guy that loves it there is no problem.
I'm out there killing everything and Tann says I'm great. Next outpost..great job.
Also I disagree that Sloane is competent. By kicking many out she creates the army against her..also by being brutal and insulting.
A smart mob boss would supply some of the needs of the people out there and subvert them. Also they would not piss off the initiative and they would do better at dealing with the general Angaran population. In the end those are her downfall.
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Post by Deleted on May 30, 2017 21:47:24 GMT
Yeah, sorry - I don't see it. Every branching narrative limits options by necessity, and I think this one was fairly well-written. Having to make a difficult "no-win" choice is a very adult endeavor imho, and so is temporarily sacrificing some things in order to achieve higher goals. "Childlike" isn't the right word for it but there appears to be an assumption that every choice must be like that, to the point where they've become predictable. And a genuine no-win choice means you may as well toss a coin instead of deciding. You can't always win, and sometimes no-win choices happen. Sometimes you can though. If I choose poorly, and the information / tasks were there that mean I should've been able to do better instead of getting unlucky, and things go to hell as a result - bring it on! Give me the chance to screw up! Childlike is a ridiculous word for it. People bitch and moan when the better option is easy to discern, or when an escape hatch option is provided. Example: DAO's dark ritual means no warden need be sacrificed. Example: being able to cure the lycanthropy means that neither the elves nor the werewolves have to die, only Zathrian. Some people really appreciate tough choices with unknowable consequences in their RPGs. It's immature lazy writing where you are forced into a situation where ultimately you really will have no say. You mean like "having no say" about working with TIM/Cerberus in ME2? Or any of the myriad of other things games force on characters in order to push their narrative? You did manage to work in "immature" and "lazy", but forgot "SJW". Congratulations... ? As for the rest, your entire diatribe is based on what you expect (or assume) will happen going forward - none of which has anything to do with the moment of deciding whether to allow the sniper to take out Sloane. It's a huge improvement over any P/R choice offered in the trilogy, because it tells you exactly what your character will do if you push the button before the timer expires. With as much discussion as there has been about this - and the fact that a lot of people feel very passionately about it on either side - I'd say it was pretty effective overall. |
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Post by lynx7386 on May 30, 2017 21:53:28 GMT
I chose sloane the first time around but kinda regretted it. Even after blatantly saving her life and shooting her greatest enemy, she only begrudgingly allows you an outpost on the planet, AND STILL DEMANDS protection money from the initiative. If I had the option I'd have shot her myself afterwards and instated initiative leadership there anyways.
Next time I get the choice I'm going to let the sniper do his job. Reyes seems like he'd be far more grateful for the alliance.
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Post by Iakus on May 30, 2017 21:53:53 GMT
Also I disagree that Sloane is competent. By kicking many out she creates the army against her..also by being brutal and insulting. A smart mob boss would supply some of the needs of the people out there and subvert them. Also they would not piss off the initiative and they would do better at dealing with the general Angaran population. In the end those are her downfall. Better she simply execute them? Remember, this is a frontier town on a hellish world being held together by scavenging, a little trade with the krogans, and bullets. The place is barely getting by, and everyone needs to contribute. (I din't think these "payments" are in credits. This is essentially Barter Town, and Sloane has to be the hardest of the hard*sses to keep the place running at all. Everyone needs to contribute, or you become a liability. |
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Post by cypherj on May 30, 2017 22:26:26 GMT
The one thing that I really didn't like about the whole thing was that they tied saving Sloane to leaving her in charge. Because even if I'd decided that she wasn't fit the lead anymore, I still would not have let it go down like that. It's just a cowardly move to me. You challenge someone to a duel mono e mono, get your ass out there a duel.
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Post by Deleted on May 30, 2017 22:34:41 GMT
The one thing that I really didn't like about the whole thing was that they tied saving Sloane to leaving her in charge. Because even if I'd decided that she wasn't fit the lead anymore, I still would not have let it go down like that. It's just a cowardly move to me. You challenge someone to a duel mono e mono, get your ass out there a duel. That's the thing - all you're really deciding is whether to allow the sniper to take out Sloane. It's a reflexive, timed, momentary decision - anything beyond that is meta-gaming. Of course, if you do stop the sniper, you then have the option of firing at Reyes as he skedaddles. |
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Post by Reorte on May 30, 2017 22:52:45 GMT
"Childlike" isn't the right word for it but there appears to be an assumption that every choice must be like that, to the point where they've become predictable. And a genuine no-win choice means you may as well toss a coin instead of deciding. You can't always win, and sometimes no-win choices happen. Sometimes you can though. If I choose poorly, and the information / tasks were there that mean I should've been able to do better instead of getting unlucky, and things go to hell as a result - bring it on! Give me the chance to screw up! Childlike is a ridiculous word for it. People bitch and moan when the better option is easy to discern, or when an escape hatch option is provided. Example: DAO's dark ritual means no warden need be sacrificed. Example: being able to cure the lycanthropy means that neither the elves nor the werewolves have to die, only Zathrian. Some people really appreciate tough choices with unknowable consequences in their RPGs. What's so tough about a choice with unknowable consequences? Might as well flip a coin to make it in that case. I'm not saying the better choice should be easy to discern. Just that this obsession some have with "they should all be no-win!" that occurs in some quarters is tiresome and no more realistic than everything having a perfect solution. There needs to be more variety than that. At least this one didn't feel as contrived as some. And such choices basically mean you can't screw things up. Where's the tough challenge in that? |
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Post by Reorte on May 30, 2017 22:55:09 GMT
Also I disagree that Sloane is competent. By kicking many out she creates the army against her..also by being brutal and insulting. A smart mob boss would supply some of the needs of the people out there and subvert them. Also they would not piss off the initiative and they would do better at dealing with the general Angaran population. In the end those are her downfall. Better she simply execute them? Remember, this is a frontier town on a hellish world being held together by scavenging, a little trade with the krogans, and bullets. The place is barely getting by, and everyone needs to contribute. (I din't think these "payments" are in credits. This is essentially Barter Town, and Sloane has to be the hardest of the hard*sses to keep the place running at all. Everyone needs to contribute, or you become a liability. But she gives the impression of being more on a power trip than interested in being tough to keep the place going. So does Reyes too for that matter, although in a pulling the strings behind the scenes way instead of a ego-trip sitting-on-a-throne way. |
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Post by KaiserShep on May 30, 2017 23:06:12 GMT
The one thing that I really didn't like about the whole thing was that they tied saving Sloane to leaving her in charge. Because even if I'd decided that she wasn't fit the lead anymore, I still would not have let it go down like that. It's just a cowardly move to me. You challenge someone to a duel mono e mono, get your ass out there a duel. Personally, if I was plotting an assassination, I'd prefer to keep the odds of its success reasonably high. But really, who duels anymore? In a cave no less. |
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Post by Deleted on May 30, 2017 23:08:00 GMT
Childlike is a ridiculous word for it. People bitch and moan when the better option is easy to discern, or when an escape hatch option is provided. Example: DAO's dark ritual means no warden need be sacrificed. Example: being able to cure the lycanthropy means that neither the elves nor the werewolves have to die, only Zathrian. Some people really appreciate tough choices with unknowable consequences in their RPGs. What's so tough about a choice with unknowable consequences? Might as well flip a coin to make it in that case. It's an effective way to express a character's morality and values. There's a reason why a lot of choices in games look gray on the surface, and it's not quite the same thing as "no-win". One of the things I like about it. And, as the discussion here and elsewhere demonstrates, a lot of people have fairly strong opinions about Sloane versus Reyes. In any case, all you're (as Ryder) really deciding is whether to allow Reyes' sniper to assassinate Sloane after she's agreed to a duel. |
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Post by Iakus on May 30, 2017 23:39:43 GMT
Anyone ever see this terminal entry? Outcast Code of Conduct
Been getting a lot of reports lately about misconduct towards the locals. These actions will not be tolerated. Sloane's trying to build a better Heleus. One the Nexus promised, but failed to deliver. Wearing Outcast colors means you represent her. And I won't have anyone representing Sloane dishonorably. Since it seems we've all got a different meaning of honor, I've made a code of conduct. Follow it or dal with me
1. No disrespect towards Sloane or your fellow Outcasts
2. Public beatings are for disciplinary measures only
3 Drunkenness is fine to an extent
4. Don't antagonize the angara, but don't let them get away with sh*t either.
5. You got a friend interested in joining the Outcasts? Great. Send them to the recruiter. All new members must go through proper channels
6. No unauthorized contact with the Nexus
7. No association with the Collective
8. No sleeping on shift
9. No f*cking on shift. Off shift, do whatever you want. But I don't want to know about it.
10 Protection fees are non-negotiable. All fees must be collected on time. Don't charge more or less.
If anything is unclear, see me, but none of this should be hard.
Kaetus
Edit: and this one: No Angaran Recruits
Our recruiters have reported a number of angara interested in joining our ranks. Some of you have encouraged them. Stop. At least for now, the Outcasts are exiles only. Not all angara are happy about our rise t power. Until we know that our "new friends" can be trusted, they are not Outcast material.
Kaetus |
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Post by tehprincessj on May 30, 2017 23:44:30 GMT
Anyone ever see this terminal entry? Outcast Code of Conduct
Been getting a lot of reports lately about misconduct towards the locals. These actions will not be tolerated. Sloane's trying to build a better Heleus. One the Nexus promised, but failed to deliver. Wearing Outcast colors means you represent her. And I won't have anyone representing Sloane dishonorably. Since it seems we've all got a different meaning of honor, I've made a code of conduct. Follow it or dal with me
1. No disrespect towards Sloane or your fellow Outcasts
2. Public beatings are for disciplinary measures only
3 Drunkenness is fine to an extent
4. Don't antagonize the angara, but don't let them get away with sh*t either.
5. You got a friend interested in joining the Outcasts? Great. Send them to the recruiter. All new members must go through proper channels
6. No unauthorized contact with the Nexus
7. No association with the Collective
8. No sleeping on shift
9. No f*cking on shift. Off shift, do whatever you want. But I don't want to know about it.
10 Protection fees are non-negotiable. All fees must be collected on time. Don't charge more or less.
If anything is unclear, see me, but none of this should be hard.
Kaetus
Edit: and this one: No Angaran Recruits
Our recruiters have reported a number of angara interested in joining our ranks. Some of you have encouraged them. Stop. At least for now, the Outcasts are exiles only. Not all angara are happy about our rise t power. Until we know that our "new friends" can be trusted, they are not Outcast material.
Kaetus LOL at #9 |
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Post by marshalmoriarty on May 30, 2017 23:53:25 GMT
Reyes is the more ambitious, intelligent and unpredictable of the 2. Sloane has a pretty straightforward 'Might is right, do as I say and we'll all get along just fine, cross me and die' attitude. It all depends how much you're willing to take the risk trusting Reyes, as he's definately the more dangerous. i wouldn't be surprised to see him become a major antagonist, if they ever do a sequel..
He seems like a man who has far bigger plans than he lets on. And I highly suspect he wants a SAM of his own. He cannot have failed to notice its value and utility. With MEA in the state its in now and the uncertainty, maybe we'll never know. But Bioware tend to keep the characters and plots people like. And many people speak well of this plotline. They seem to want you to back Reyes, and as Sloane would just be Aria again, I think the safer bet is Reyes.
I see this as a Harrowmont or Bhelan choice. You *could* choose Harrowmont, but its clear they really don't want you to. Or Krogan cure vs Salarian sabotage. You could choose the sabotage, but they sure make it feel like you picked the 'wrong' choice and should'nt be surprised if it ended up being overruled etc. Its the old 'pick a card, any card' routine. You'll end up picking the card they choose one way or the other. They make one choice much more attractive and use the takeup numbers as a mandate to treat it as the de facto canon choice.
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melbella
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Trouble-shooting Space Diva
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Post by melbella on May 31, 2017 0:31:27 GMT
Anyone else notice that SAM's warning about the sniper isn't on private mode? So, everyone should have heard him, yet only Ryder acts. And if he doesn't, no one else does either.
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Post by KaiserShep on May 31, 2017 2:01:52 GMT
Anyone else notice that SAM's warning about the sniper isn't on private mode? So, everyone should have heard him, yet only Ryder acts. And if he doesn't, no one else does either. Are people able to hear SAM out in the field if they don't have some kind of implant or a comm that it has a channel to? |
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cypherj
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Post by cypherj on May 31, 2017 2:18:13 GMT
The one thing that I really didn't like about the whole thing was that they tied saving Sloane to leaving her in charge. Because even if I'd decided that she wasn't fit the lead anymore, I still would not have let it go down like that. It's just a cowardly move to me. You challenge someone to a duel mono e mono, get your ass out there a duel. Personally, if I was plotting an assassination, I'd prefer to keep the odds of its success reasonably high. But really, who duels anymore? In a cave no less. They both threw down their guns and drew knives, so apparently the concept wasn't new to them. |
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Post by KaiserShep on May 31, 2017 2:28:12 GMT
Personally, if I was plotting an assassination, I'd prefer to keep the odds of its success reasonably high. But really, who duels anymore? In a cave no less. They both threw down their guns and drew knives, so apparently the concept wasn't new to them. We needed an old prospector diving into a barrel and the setting would be complete. |
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Post by obatalaryder on May 31, 2017 3:32:22 GMT
Reyes is the cannon choice. If you save Sloane, she will die between installments and Reyes will come into power anyway. That is why Sloane is killable but you can only wound Reyes I like Sloane as a character in a story, but there is no way my Ryder(s) can cooperate with a person like that. Reyes is pragmatic and understands the true value of cooperation and long standing arrangements. Sloane by contrast wants her cut in the here and now, and cannot be swayed by the inherent value of friendship and stability. This is also why my Ryders engage with Reyes romantically, to strengthen the bond and make it harder for him to betray the initiative in the future. Being killable doesn't automatically mean canon. Wrex back in the OT can be killed off in the first game. Wreav must be canon by your definition. |
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