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Post by obatalaryder on Jun 3, 2017 2:29:00 GMT
Yup, the incompetence of Tann and Addison is further shown with the comparison between them and Sloane's exiles. But either no one gives them credit or they figure it as bad plot writing and the use of a plot device. Also I've picked up the sort of flimsy logic people have been using towards choosing Reyes. A very American interventionist "If I get rid of this despot, and replace them with another one, that'll surely make things better!" line of logic. That has never worked, espescially for the people of the "despot" they're being disposed of. The fact that Ryder can virtually make the decision of enacting a complete power shift (that wasn't won on equal terms) is starkingly insidious. it's not decided by the people, or even righteously fought out in a war. It's handled by a conniving snake, a literal charaltan, that no one knows. But obviously he has the best interest for the people of Kadara /s. It should also be mentioned that Sloane, while feared nontheless, is admired and appreciated by the folks of Kadara. It is hardly the same as the interventions we have seen in real world conflict and politics. This is not some long standing distinct culture, it is a splinter group (which Reyes is also part of) who have only been there for a relatively short time. Sloane clearly doesn't have the skills to rule Kadara long term, or she would not find herself in the situation that she does. I see it as natural selection, saving Sloane is getting in the way of that. Whether Reyes turns out to be the better choice remains to be seen, but Sloane had to go IMO. Natural selection? Reyes and Sloane agree to a one-on-one duel only for Reyes to use his sniper. Natural selection would be a fight to the deat with no interference.
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Post by dmc1001 on Jun 3, 2017 4:27:17 GMT
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Post by qwib on Jun 3, 2017 5:00:35 GMT
I like both characters, they bring something fresh to the table. With Udina and Anderson as an example it was always very obvious who was the better choice. And I think with Reyes and Sloane you don't know 100% what will be more beneficial for you. Unless a DLCs clears that up later on.
I say don't make a choice, make two savegames and see what happens.
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Post by wildannie on Jun 3, 2017 7:27:46 GMT
It is hardly the same as the interventions we have seen in real world conflict and politics. This is not some long standing distinct culture, it is a splinter group (which Reyes is also part of) who have only been there for a relatively short time. Sloane clearly doesn't have the skills to rule Kadara long term, or she would not find herself in the situation that she does. I see it as natural selection, saving Sloane is getting in the way of that. Whether Reyes turns out to be the better choice remains to be seen, but Sloane had to go IMO. Natural selection? Reyes and Sloane agree to a one-on-one duel only for Reyes to use his sniper. Natural selection would be a fight to the deat with no interference. The Natural selection bit is the situation that Sloane has found herself in, which is that she is isolated, with no one she can trust. If she was a great leader, the Charlatan would not have been able to undermine her to such a degree that she had to turn to Ryder, and she would not have been so stupid to go and meet the Charlatan in a cave. The duel has little to do with it, although deciding leadership by a fight is not exactly a smart move. Brains won out over brawn.
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Zitrus
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Post by Zitrus on Jun 3, 2017 12:23:27 GMT
Exactly. What kind of people does she have in her group that there is not a single capable one she can trust? It's stupid and almost sad in a way that Kaetus is her only confidant. No wonder she gets more friendly with Ryder in her own grumpy way after being saved. One other person she can rely on in this big galaxy.
And even if you apply natural selection to the duel alone it works. It is not always about who is stronger but also who is smarter. You can observe this in nature. Species survive against stronger ones because they adapt and are clever. Some insects mimic others to appear poisonous when they are not so they are not eaten so often. Sloane is predictable. Chances were high she would accept the duel and this is her weakness against an opponent who exploits such behaviour. She should have insisted on a location of her choosing or at least checked the cave. She knew it was likely a trap and still walked in, still believed it would be a fair affair when her opponent is known to be sly. Just relying on Ryder in this situation, who doesn't even have to promise to watch her back or could be too slow to react, is dangerous.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 4, 2017 1:07:59 GMT
Sloane really is the one who uses you more. Lots of thoughts here about Reyes backstabbing, using, etc but he never backstabs. He merely doesn't tell you he is the charlatan. He is very upfront with Ryder about what he wants Ryder to do. Find the murderer. (He suspected Roekaar which seems to be something we should get right on dealing with and he wants to). Frankly, in the end, he helps us more than we help him and Sloane uses us twice (to cover her back and to get rid of the kett while treating us like garbage for it). By comparison, Reyes asks for our help with the murders (which sloane doesn't care about) then asks for our help with a personal matter which he would have split the profit nearly 50/50 with us. So he has actually helped make Kadara better while sloane has just covered her ass. Both ask us to help them as it suits them and both are equally upfront about it. Perhaps it can be seen that Reyes uses you because he doesn't pay you for helping with the roekaar, but if that were a random quest we would have probably done it anyway. We are there to set up an outpost, his goals align with ours. Same could be said for Sloane wanting the kett gone, but she keeps that quiet, so I don't see how that is straight forward or honest when it's basically a lie to all the people she 'protects' that the kett are gone for good. You end up being an accomplice in that even if you don't want to. So now you are part of her little cover up lie to the people of kadara. How is that not shady? Or is it okay because you know even if nobody else does? Is the lie okay when you are part of it from the start? If Reyes told you he was the charlatan outright would that have been better? Or was it his charm? Using charm is bad? Or was it the wink? Did that feel shady? If he was a macho dick that insulted would that have been better? I wonder if it's that people want blunt over finesse?
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jun 4, 2017 3:00:09 GMT
The reasons Reyes gave us for the two quests we did were altered to fit his agenda. He even says something to this effect during High Noon when he reveals himself as the Charlatan. Ryder confronts him about how all of that led to this moment and Reyes concurs saying "Death by a thousand cuts". For the Roekaar, he eliminates a potential threat to his future reign since they target both the Milky Way races and angara who are sympathetic and supportive of them. He certainly doesn't care just because they are murderers since his group does that all the time. With Zia and the other smugglers, he eliminates all of his competition giving him a monopoly on those kinds of jobs and that monopoly helps him set up his pieces. He set Sloane up, so there is no reason to think he wouldn't use the same tactics on Ryder, though this time trying to win over an ally than eliminate an enemy.
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Post by KaiserShep on Jun 4, 2017 3:11:17 GMT
It's like Drack said: He fooled everyone. Hard to trust a guy like that - but then, I don't have to.
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Zitrus
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Post by Zitrus on Jun 4, 2017 20:50:29 GMT
The reasons Reyes gave us for the two quests we did were altered to fit his agenda. He even says something to this effect during High Noon when he reveals himself as the Charlatan. Ryder confronts him about how all of that led to this moment and Reyes concurs saying "Death by a thousand cuts". For the Roekaar, he eliminates a potential threat to his future reign since they target both the Milky Way races and angara who are sympathetic and supportive of them. He certainly doesn't care just because they are murderers since his group does that all the time. With Zia and the other smugglers, he eliminates all of his competition giving him a monopoly on those kinds of jobs and that monopoly helps him set up his pieces. He set Sloane up, so there is no reason to think he wouldn't use the same tactics on Ryder, though this time trying to win over an ally than eliminate an enemy. The Zia quest is not mentioned there though, only the Roekaar quest. This is one cut of many, as it makes Sloane look bad for being unable to solve the problems in her own city. Maybe the Roekaar could have risen to be a real threat in the future. But the safety of the citizens is relevant. And why does Sloane not do anything about it? Oh, maybe because only a few of the victims were Outcasts, not important enough then I guess. The angara maintain the water systems. And if they are killed or flee because of fear, everyone has a problem (until the vault is restored; and Lynx does it for the Collective, so maybe Sloane should have asked nicely to learn that particular secret). It's also a bad situation in general if murderers run around and kill people. The Collective does murder people, Outcasts mostly. The Outcasts kill people, too, even indirect, when they throw them into the badlands. But this is about murderers running around in a city causing unrest by killing commoners (well and this one krogan in the badlands). - Edit: This also helps to clear the name of the Charlatan off these crimes. I bet Sloane didn't mind this rumour. Zia and the others are killed because they set up a trap and tried to kill him (and shot first). They were not really good at smuggling though it seems. I think he would have let them their little slice of the pie. I mean, they provided good cover, too. Let him be a good one, but not the only one. There are other smugglers left as he mentioned he will be prepared now because he knows the others want him dead. So no monopoly. This is not a setup, this is gaining allies. He got something out for himself but not only. He also helped and showed that the Initiave cares. This is good for the acceptance of the future outpost and peace with the AI. That this also undermined Sloane, well, maybe she should have tried to win allies too instead of isolating herself.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 4, 2017 21:29:38 GMT
The reasons Reyes gave us for the two quests we did were altered to fit his agenda. He even says something to this effect during High Noon when he reveals himself as the Charlatan. Ryder confronts him about how all of that led to this moment and Reyes concurs saying "Death by a thousand cuts". For the Roekaar, he eliminates a potential threat to his future reign since they target both the Milky Way races and angara who are sympathetic and supportive of them. He certainly doesn't care just because they are murderers since his group does that all the time. With Zia and the other smugglers, he eliminates all of his competition giving him a monopoly on those kinds of jobs and that monopoly helps him set up his pieces. He set Sloane up, so there is no reason to think he wouldn't use the same tactics on Ryder, though this time trying to win over an ally than eliminate an enemy. Everyone has an agenda. Sloane. Ryder. Tann. Addison. kesh. Peebee. Liam. Drack. Cora. Vetra. Ect. Everyone has an agenda. To think anyone doesn't is to be naive. As I said, his wants align with ours. Sloane's don't unless we want to have to pay fees for protection, probably have more scandals like drug trade, and someone who hates the nexus because what if Ryder isn't around to deal with her? He had no idea about Zia. He thought it was a deal. It was a trap. We killed them because they attacked us. In the game, he wants the deal. They all show up to kill him. He did not set out to kill them. He set out for a deal. They set out to kill him because he is good at what he does. Also, wouldn't really be too concerned about getting rid of smugglers who set up someone to kill them because they don't like competition. Really, the extent to which people go to defend sloane who was a filthy drug trader that wanted people to be addicted and who thinks beatings and exile are appropriate for people struggling to pay extortion fees as well as thinking sticking a traitors head on a spike is better than letting the resistance deal with him, well I don't see how any of that is better because it's not. She also used you. She's scummy trash who maybe had good intentions once upon a time but now needs to be kicked out of kadara with her outlaw trash. There is no logic in saying she is better because she is straight forward. It's insane logic driven by either fearing that Reyes could become worse or because of some principle about good criminals vs bad criminals. Both are criminals. Clearly. One does it with finesse. The other looks you in the eye and tells you they are going to use you then stick it too you (with some added insults along the way). But she does have drug trade where she wants to addict people. And she does drag you into he coverup of the kett. Reyes does nothing of that caliber. After, he helps fund the clinic among other things. And he doesn't charge us to be there. He knows the trade will be good. He has actual business sense. Probably why Zia and her thugs wanted him dead.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jun 5, 2017 1:56:36 GMT
The reasons Reyes gave us for the two quests we did were altered to fit his agenda. He even says something to this effect during High Noon when he reveals himself as the Charlatan. Ryder confronts him about how all of that led to this moment and Reyes concurs saying "Death by a thousand cuts". For the Roekaar, he eliminates a potential threat to his future reign since they target both the Milky Way races and angara who are sympathetic and supportive of them. He certainly doesn't care just because they are murderers since his group does that all the time. With Zia and the other smugglers, he eliminates all of his competition giving him a monopoly on those kinds of jobs and that monopoly helps him set up his pieces. He set Sloane up, so there is no reason to think he wouldn't use the same tactics on Ryder, though this time trying to win over an ally than eliminate an enemy. Everyone has an agenda. Sloane. Ryder. Tann. Addison. kesh. Peebee. Liam. Drack. Cora. Vetra. Ect. Everyone has an agenda. To think anyone doesn't is to be naive. As I said, his wants align with ours. Sloane's don't unless we want to have to pay fees for protection, probably have more scandals like drug trade, and someone who hates the nexus because what if Ryder isn't around to deal with her? He had no idea about Zia. He thought it was a deal. It was a trap. We killed them because they attacked us. In the game, he wants the deal. They all show up to kill him. He did not set out to kill them. He set out for a deal. They set out to kill him because he is good at what he does. Also, wouldn't really be too concerned about getting rid of smugglers who set up someone to kill them because they don't like competition. Really, the extent to which people go to defend sloane who was a filthy drug trader that wanted people to be addicted and who thinks beatings and exile are appropriate for people struggling to pay extortion fees as well as thinking sticking a traitors head on a spike is better than letting the resistance deal with him, well I don't see how any of that is better because it's not. She also used you. She's scummy trash who maybe had good intentions once upon a time but now needs to be kicked out of kadara with her outlaw trash. There is no logic in saying she is better because she is straight forward. It's insane logic driven by either fearing that Reyes could become worse or because of some principle about good criminals vs bad criminals. Both are criminals. Clearly. One does it with finesse. The other looks you in the eye and tells you they are going to use you then stick it too you (with some added insults along the way). But she does have drug trade where she wants to addict people. And she does drag you into he coverup of the kett. Reyes does nothing of that caliber. After, he helps fund the clinic among other things. And he doesn't charge us to be there. He knows the trade will be good. He has actual business sense. Probably why Zia and her thugs wanted him dead. At no point was Sloane mentioned in my post and and she had nothing to do with the reason I made that post, so calm down. Just because someone doesn't see Reyes as the saint you do and points out negative things about him doesn't means they are whitewashing Sloane. As you said, both are terrible people. I was just talking about how it wouldn't be surprising if Reyes didn't give us the whole picture because keeping the wool over people's eyes is kind of his thing.
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Post by KaiserShep on Jun 5, 2017 11:27:10 GMT
In the end being able to really trust Reyes isn't all that important so long as he's generally cooperative when it comes to day to day operations on Kadara. As the planet's viability increases and our own settlement grows larger, his relevance is diminished in the process.
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Zitrus
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Post by Zitrus on Jun 5, 2017 11:30:19 GMT
The reply wasn't aimed at me but regardless. Yes, she was "He set Sloane up..." Jokes aside, I actually read your post as all the reasons Reyes gives are a lie/not what he really has in mind and that your mentioned reasons are the real ones. And as I mentioned above, for me the main reason, the cut against Sloane, is doing what should be her work - keeping the city safe. It is part of dismantling her leadership, which is what he is doing, piece by piece. That the Roekaar can't cause trouble by doing this is a bonus he might have in mind as well. But I don't see it as a cut against her. I am, however, unable to see the Zia mission in any other light than presented in the game. I'm repeating myself but here goes. The monopoly idea is not supported by the game and he is already in good standing as a smuggler, can move things with his Collective network, the others can have some scraps. Even how it starts, choose the option that you help him if you've got time. He mentions he wants to do it before his buyer knows. This is him protecting his reputation as a smuggler and looking into who is trying to harm him business wise (and more as it turns out). It's also unwanted attention if someone meddles like this. His reaction to everyone trying to kill him: oh they teamed up, damn. The talk with Ryder which shows he does not have a monopoly in the aftermath. Ryder: They might try again. Reyes: Undoubtedly, but it's harder to kill a man who knows you are gunning for him. Ryder: [You have less competition now]: There are a few less smugglers in Kadara. Think of it as thinning out the competition. Reyes: You and your silver linings, Pathfinder. So the number of smugglers is a bit lower now than before but he is not the only one left and it was their own fault because they attacked him. I can really not see him planning this whole thing, it was a setup by the others he was able to turn around in the end. Anyway, your anti-Reyes posts are mostly good food for thought.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jun 5, 2017 18:30:04 GMT
The reply wasn't aimed at me but regardless. Yes, she was "He set Sloane up..." Jokes aside, I actually read your post as all the reasons Reyes gives are a lie/not what he really has in mind and that your mentioned reasons are the real ones. And as I mentioned above, for me the main reason, the cut against Sloane, is doing what should be her work - keeping the city safe. It is part of dismantling her leadership, which is what he is doing, piece by piece. That the Roekaar can't cause trouble by doing this is a bonus he might have in mind as well. But I don't see it as a cut against her. I am, however, unable to see the Zia mission in any other light than presented in the game. I'm repeating myself but here goes. The monopoly idea is not supported by the game and he is already in good standing as a smuggler, can move things with his Collective network, the others can have some scraps. Even how it starts, choose the option that you help him if you've got time. He mentions he wants to do it before his buyer knows. This is him protecting his reputation as a smuggler and looking into who is trying to harm him business wise (and more as it turns out). It's also unwanted attention if someone meddles like this. His reaction to everyone trying to kill him: oh they teamed up, damn. The talk with Ryder which shows he does not have a monopoly in the aftermath. Ryder: They might try again. Reyes: Undoubtedly, but it's harder to kill a man who knows you are gunning for him. Ryder: [You have less competition now]: There are a few less smugglers in Kadara. Think of it as thinning out the competition. Reyes: You and your silver linings, Pathfinder. So the number of smugglers is a bit lower now than before but he is not the only one left and it was their own fault because they attacked him. I can really not see him planning this whole thing, it was a setup by the others he was able to turn around in the end. Anyway, your anti-Reyes posts are mostly good food for thought. I wouldn't say the reasons Reyes gives Ryder are a lie of commission, but a lie of omission. He tells us half-truths, but leaves some things out. Now it would be interesting to see if he put the Roekaar up to it. After all most people think his codename Sheva is an angaran, so he could have contacted them and encouraged that cell to do what they do and then when Ryder came along a more powerful ally showed up so he threw the Roekaar away. Now I know that less than half the targets were Outcasts, but that could have been done to hide a connection. It's interesting to note none of the victims were members of the Collective. This is just speculation in what could have been an interesting twist. That quote you provided does support what I was saying. Just because it wasn't Reyes who said it doesn't mean Reyes didn't think it. Sure monopoly may not be entirely accurate, but I just said that to illustrate a point in that he has a much larger piece of the pie now. I'm glad you think so. It's nice to have good conversations about this whole plotline because it is one of the best in the entire game. Courtney Woods definitely proved herself with writing Kadara, Reyes, and Lexi.
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Post by Zitrus on Jun 6, 2017 0:00:44 GMT
Yes, I think the reasons are truthful but of course he leaves out of the Roekaar mission (and everything else that harms Sloane in a way) that he benefits as well. Ryder, let's help the city, the AI (and also my secret campaign to become ruler^^). It's actually smart, aligning their goals like that. Ouch, the theory about him using the Roekaar. This would have been a nasty twist I would not have seen coming at all because that thought has honestly never occured to me. Maybe some victims were Collective or sympathizers, it's not stated. I agree on the larger piece, although it's probably not that much more. If Zia acts so stupid and attacks him, it can't be helped. Yes, she did really well with her parts.
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