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Post by q5tyhj on Jun 1, 2017 4:07:30 GMT
guess you missed #2, "belief not based on proof", which is the relevant sense of "faith" in this context, i.e. faith in the truth-value of a given proposition As i said before , same word, same concept. Belief that gravity will always work with no proof it will always work is still a matter of faith. Same word, different usages... #2 is the sense of faith that applies to propositional belief. And we don't lack proof that gravity will continue to work in the future as in the past, the countless instances of it working the same as it did in the past is very strong proof that it will.. Again, not logically certain proof, but proof nonetheless, meaning it is not a matter of faith. Look, your observation that all (non-trivial) knowledge, including of science, is fallible (not logically certain) is a good and accurate one, so far as it goes, but you can't claim that simply being fallible makes something a matter of faith, and therefore on par with, say, belief in God, without doing violence to language.
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Post by alanc9 on Jun 1, 2017 4:07:47 GMT
Your definition of faith is the weirdest I've ever seen. The proof is that it has worked--for billions of years--for every test every done, created, or thought of. Evidence. Empirical evidence. By your logic, EVERYTHING is a matter of faith. That you'll continue breathing, that water is wet, that your eyelids will continue to function, that the neck bone connects to the head bone... And that's NOT the faith that these scientists are talking about. technically it is. Given how limited Human perception is almost everything is a matter of faith at the bottom. I guess it just sounds weird to equate shrugging indifference to the tiny likelihood of gravity failing to work with faith in gravity. It seems to bend the "faith" concept a bit out of shape.
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Post by R'Shara on Jun 1, 2017 4:15:58 GMT
I mean, words have different definitions for a reason. You, second person singular, is mutually exclusive from You, second person plural. They literally can never be the same thing. Faith #1 and Faith #2 are not quite mutually exclusive, but they're pretty close.
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Post by projectpatdc on Jun 1, 2017 4:16:27 GMT
Well this thread took off fast.
I would say it was done tastefully. Christianity especially when broken down by domination covers such a minority when considering everyone in the world. The responses were open-ended to make them applicable to your own faith.
The whole game has the themes of faith, creation, higher power, etc so again, whether you a devout Christian, Muslim, Jew, Hindu, Athiest, Deist, Agnostic, etc. that convo with Suvi should still strike a Cord of curiosity about what is behind the creation of any of this. Is there any actual purpose or is it just natural chaos?
Pretty cool stuff. I enjoyed Suvi bc I get those thoughts when thinking about space. I usually get more thoughts about stuff regarding religion when observing science as opposed to listening to another flawed human tell me about it
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Post by q5tyhj on Jun 1, 2017 4:16:39 GMT
technically it is. Given how limited Human perception is almost everything is a matter of faith at the bottom. I guess it just sounds weird to equate shrugging indifference to the tiny likelihood of gravity failing to work with faith in gravity. It seems to bend the "faith" concept a bit out of shape. that's the idea: bend the concept of "faith" so far out of shape that it encompasses everything... and nothing then the crucial differences between justified and rational beliefs (those supported by evidence) and unjustified and irrational beliefs (those held on faith) can safely be ignored
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Post by R'Shara on Jun 1, 2017 4:17:38 GMT
Well this thread took off fast. I would say it was done tastefully. Christianity especially when broken down by domination covers such a minority when considering everyone in the world. The responses were open-ended to make them applicable to your own faith. The whole game has the themes of faith, creation, higher power, etc so again, whether you a devout Christian, Muslim, Jew, Hindu, Athiest, Deist, Agnostic, etc. that convo with Suvi should still strike a Cord of curiosity about what is behind the creation of any of this. Is there any actual purpose or is it just natural chaos? Pretty cool stuff. I enjoyed Suvi bc I get those thoughts when thinking about space. I usually get more thoughts about stuff regarding religion when observing science as opposed to listening to another flawed human tell me about it And that is what these scientists are talking about. The only time I ever consider becoming a deist is when I'm thinking of the beauty of the universe and the amazing miracle that is conscious life.
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Post by dreman999 on Jun 1, 2017 4:23:10 GMT
Your definition of faith is the weirdest I've ever seen. The proof is that it has worked--for billions of years--for every test every done, created, or thought of. Evidence. Empirical evidence. By your logic, EVERYTHING is a matter of faith. That you'll continue breathing, that water is wet, that your eyelids will continue to function, that the neck bone connects to the head bone... No. You don't get my point. We are finite beings in terms of perspective, understanding, and with our sense. And there are things out there that even our most advances tool can't even cataluge. science at it's basic form is a matter of understand the universe around us and how it works but we don't have the capacity full due do yet. We can't see everything with is but we put so much back to it because it give us a place to grasp but the fact remain that is alot on unknown that hold up that grasp we hold on to we do not understand. if that unknown changes an effect that grasp, what happens then. What happen in out perspective we can say happens but we don't what changes can happen because we don't have the perspective to see or understand it. think of or even look up the book flat land. Changes can happen to our plain or out side it that can charge every law and rule we note about science and the change can happen from a plaice we can't even comprehend. Even on a scientific level we cans say at the very base level that nothing in the universe or plain of existence is permanent. Why is that some how not the same for gravity? With that, why say gravity will always work even with a change of a change like this happening. We don't understand every thing or even sense everything, heck, even dark energy were can't even make a machine that can sense it. Yet, we still say gravity will always work. but we don't know why gravity works and everything in existence that can effect it. We can't say gravity will away work. Why because existence always changes. it's one of the major consistence of science. I'm not saying it will change and prep for it, I'm saying it's strange to say it will not change but not know enough about it fully know it won't change. even if we had done millions of test with it an element can easily come in an change it and it could be from a place we can never detect. existence is that infinite. Yet, even with the concept of murphy's law we still say gravity will not change with no proof it won't change. How is that not faith? even if you say you could test for it or see signs for there are places and thing in existence you can factor for because they are out side are ability to detect. If you can't test for it then you can't comferm it. we are just testing in a controlled state and missing factors we can't detect.
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Post by R'Shara on Jun 1, 2017 4:25:02 GMT
Where's your proof that your eyelids will continue to work?
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Post by KaiserShep on Jun 1, 2017 4:26:49 GMT
Where's your proof that your eyelids will continue to work? Does it matter? A great philosopher poet said it best:
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Post by dreman999 on Jun 1, 2017 4:26:52 GMT
As i said before , same word, same concept. Belief that gravity will always work with no proof it will always work is still a matter of faith. Same word, different usages... #2 is the sense of faith that applies to propositional belief. And we don't lack proof that gravity will continue to work in the future as in the past, the countless instances of it working the same as it did in the past is very strong proof that it will.. Again, not logically certain proof, but proof nonetheless, meaning it is not a matter of faith. Look, your observation that all (non-trivial) knowledge, including of science, is fallible (not logically certain) is certainly true and good, so far as it goes, but you can't claim that simply being fallible makes something a matter of faith, and therefore on par with, say, belief in God, without doing violence to language. You don't get it. We can't detect everything. Heck, we can't even detect dark matter. we can't test or calculate for everything because we have limited perspective. because we don't have the ability for border test we can't say it will never change.
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Post by Fen'Harel Faceman on Jun 1, 2017 4:27:41 GMT
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Post by R'Shara on Jun 1, 2017 4:31:33 GMT
I guess it just sounds weird to equate shrugging indifference to the tiny likelihood of gravity failing to work with faith in gravity. It seems to bend the "faith" concept a bit out of shape. that's the idea: bend the concept of "faith" so far out of shape that it encompasses everything... and nothing then the crucial differences between justified and rational beliefs (those supported by evidence) and unjustified and irrational beliefs (those held on faith) can safely be ignored ^^ is the best response I can think of.
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Post by dreman999 on Jun 1, 2017 4:31:57 GMT
Where's your proof that your eyelids will continue to work? I don't. i just hope they continue working. That and a hope that I keep the myelination in my oculomotor nerve keeps working.
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Post by R'Shara on Jun 1, 2017 4:33:25 GMT
So you have faith that your eyelids will continue to work?
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Post by KaiserShep on Jun 1, 2017 4:33:31 GMT
If it makes you feel better, if your eyelids stop working, it's because you died.
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Post by dreman999 on Jun 1, 2017 4:33:42 GMT
you really want to go back to sjw shit posts?
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Post by Fen'Harel Faceman on Jun 1, 2017 4:34:48 GMT
you really want to go back to sjw shit posts?
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Post by dreman999 on Jun 1, 2017 4:35:06 GMT
If it makes you feel better, if your eyelids stop working, it's because you died. or an injury to your oculomotor nerves if you still alive.
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Post by dreman999 on Jun 1, 2017 4:36:58 GMT
you really want to go back to sjw shit posts? aka the op's theory that bw is anti christian now.
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Post by KaiserShep on Jun 1, 2017 4:38:46 GMT
If it makes you feel better, if your eyelids stop working, it's because you died. or an injury to your oculomotor nerves if you still alive. Well, then probably because you died.
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Post by Fen'Harel Faceman on Jun 1, 2017 4:38:53 GMT
aka the op's theory that bw is anti christian now. You guys/gals are just repeating the same arguments over and over and derailing the thread. Please stop.
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Post by KaiserShep on Jun 1, 2017 4:39:56 GMT
you really want to go back to sjw shit posts? I'm pretty sure shitpost is one word. Unless you mean shit posts, then that's a totally different story.
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Post by dreman999 on Jun 1, 2017 4:41:20 GMT
aka the op's theory that bw is anti christian now. You guys/gals are just repeating the same arguments over and over and derailing the thread. Please stop. back to the topic that bw is now somehow anti christian? And on point we are about done with the current discussion now anyway.
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Post by isaidlunch on Jun 1, 2017 4:44:32 GMT
Suvi's religion club sounded pretty comfy
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Post by projectpatdc on Jun 1, 2017 4:47:11 GMT
What do you base your analysis on ? I'm not trying to engage into a long metaphysical debate, but I'm genuinely curious to know why people think the way they think... I won't answer for vonuber, as he is quite capable and I thought his post was outstanding! My analysis is based on, wait for it.... Analysis. Academic analysis, on my own as a young child through my BA in Phil and minor in World Religion. Infinite regress is a big problem for me, but the Jolly Jesus in the Clouds is a bigger one. As an agnostic always teetering on hard atheism, I will say that I base my lack of faith in man-made religion on sound analysis of all data available to me. The logical inconsistencies of Abrahamic religions and their texts, practices and voodoo, as well as their earthly corruption, make a bad joke out of organized religion, and New Age Mysticism is hokey as fuck. So, that leaves a very small path to being a rational "believer". That path for me, is this: If God exists, it is nothing like us, doesn't care for us individually, and is truly beyond knowing in this life. Therefore, live right because it feels good, or dick off because it feels good, and never fear eternal damnation or feel secure in hallowed gates. The punishment of this life, is this life. Damn. This is a good post. I grew up catholic; mom was the principle of the catholic school and dad designed the new church. So I was fortunate to still have a more worldly, open minded view while growing up in a very narrow-minded Baptisit Bible Belt area that is more contradicting than listening to Donald Trump speak for 5 minutes. And the new Pope is dope as he fully respects and appreciates all forms of religion even if he doesn't agree with it. It's better to be a good atheist than a bad Christian as the Pope puts it. It doesn't really matter what the fuck the Bible says. You get maybe 80 years to breath and live a life so spend that time making a positive impact on those around you. Eternity is how people remember you and how you impact others' lives. Doing something "right" just because of your religion is a never ending issue with humanity, and Rarely do people respect the fact that their religion could very well just be wrong. Again, Suvi's lines were actually some of the best writing in the game IMO because she has faith but also intelligent and respectful enough for science and other views. And you can make Ryder follow suit so I don't see any issue
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