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Post by R'Shara on Jun 1, 2017 3:31:10 GMT
It's not faith that gravity, to use your example, will work and continue to work. It's awe and humility and thankfulness in the beauty and perfection of the universe, and believing that all of that means something. And that there's a guiding force behind and responsible for that beauty and perfection.
I don't see how that could possibly be simplified or summarized to, "it works so it'll continue to work."
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Post by q5tyhj on Jun 1, 2017 3:32:18 GMT
Of course it's a matter of faith. Would you put your faith is something you don't full understand and that no one else fully understands? The issue is a question of consistency. The thing with gravity we trust it because it show no reason to change it's standard action. But that does not mean it can't one day change it action. Nothing says the laws of physic will not one day change and the gravity will act differently. Heck, it's theories there places in existed that gravity does work differently. Yet we still trust gravity will not suddenly change. That's faith. Ofcouse you can say you can trust it because it shows no signs of change...but that that's the thing, we don't know enough about it to be able to say that. We don't know if there is any elements out side our perspective that can change it. We are 3 dimensional beings and if there is a dimensional of reality out there that can effect our plains gravity which we can't see or even touch, how can we say it would not come in contact with us and effect our gravity that it will change. aka murphy's law. if something outside our perspective of reality can change how our gravity works in our plain then it can one day happen. And here we are saying gravity will not changed.....that is faith. that's his point. We don't know enough to know why things work and if they continue work...yet we have faith that it will do in science. irony is the purest form. What's the difference between "faith" and "a methodological assumption with an overwhelming amount of inductive support," exactly? Is there a substantive dispute here, or is this just rhetoric? faith is belief in the absence of (or even contrary to) evidence, so the difference between the two is the difference between having an absence of X and an overwhelming amount of X
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Post by R'Shara on Jun 1, 2017 3:33:32 GMT
Francis Collins is the director of the National Institutes of Health (NIH). In a 2007 book about the intersection between science and faith, Collins described how he converted from atheism to Christianity and attempts to argue that the idea of a Christian God is compatible with Darwin’s theory of evolution.
In an essay for CNN, Collins writes:
“I have found there is a wonderful harmony in the complementary truths of science and faith. The God of the Bible is also the God of the genome. God can be found in the cathedral or in the laboratory. By investigating God’s majestic and awesome creation, science can actually be a means of worship.”
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Post by q5tyhj on Jun 1, 2017 3:33:57 GMT
It's not faith that gravity, to use your example, will work and continue to work. It's awe and humility and thankfulness in the beauty and perfection of the universe, and believing that all of that means something. And that there's a guiding force behind and responsible for that beauty and perfection. I don't see how that could possibly be simplified or summarized to, "it works so it'll continue to work." when you drop a rock, do you have faith- belief without evidence- that it will fall to the ground? or do you believe it will fall to the ground because in all past instances, objects fall to the ground when dropped (i.e. evidence)? the whole entire argument here hinges on ignoring the difference between having no evidence, and having evidence that falls short of complete logical proof
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Post by R'Shara on Jun 1, 2017 3:34:37 GMT
It's not faith that gravity, to use your example, will work and continue to work. It's awe and humility and thankfulness in the beauty and perfection of the universe, and believing that all of that means something. And that there's a guiding force behind and responsible for that beauty and perfection. I don't see how that could possibly be simplified or summarized to, "it works so it'll continue to work." when you drop a rock, do you have faith- belief without evidence- that it will fall to the ground? or do you believe it will fall to the ground because in all past instances, objects fall to the ground when dropped? the whole entire argument here hinges on ignoring the difference between having no evidence, and having evidence that falls short of complete logical proof You make an excellent point that I overlooked. Thank you. I'm a little embarrassed actually, as I commonly criticize Aristotle as an interesting philosopher, but a terrible scientist. He did that exact thing--had "faith" that heavier objects would fall faster than lighter objects. So much faith that he never actually tested it. Sigh.
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Post by dreman999 on Jun 1, 2017 3:38:48 GMT
Of course it's a matter of faith. Would you put your faith is something you don't full understand and that no one else fully understands? The issue is a question of consistency. The thing with gravity we trust it because it show no reason to change it's standard action. But that does not mean it can't one day change it action. Nothing says the laws of physic will not one day change and the gravity will act differently. Heck, it's theories there places in existed that gravity does work differently. Yet we still trust gravity will not suddenly change. That's faith. Ofcouse you can say you can trust it because it shows no signs of change...but that that's the thing, we don't know enough about it to be able to say that. We don't know if there is any elements out side our perspective that can change it. We are 3 dimensional beings and if there is a dimensional of reality out there that can effect our plains gravity which we can't see or even touch, how can we say it would not come in contact with us and effect our gravity that it will change. aka murphy's law. if something outside our perspective of reality can change how our gravity works in our plain then it can one day happen. And here we are saying gravity will not changed.....that is faith. that's his point. We don't know enough to know why things work and if they continue work...yet we have faith that it will do in science. irony is the purest form. What's the difference between "faith" and "a methodological assumption with an overwhelming amount of inductive support," exactly? Is there a substantive dispute here, or is this just rhetoric? I suppose there's a nonzero probability that gravity will suddenly stop working the way it always has, but the probability of that is so low that it's not worth my time to think about. Is that "faith"? I thought faith was a little more robust than that. It's not an argument about worrying about it happening. It's an argument of the irony to look down one faith when we blindly fallow another one regardless to the fact that we don't know if it will change or not. The point is the belief of gravity is on of faith to it's define word. faith: confidence or trust in a person or thingYou don't question gravity working. yet there is a possibility of it not working, but you still trust anyway. That still a matter of faith. i'm just saying many of the trust in sciece when truelly understand them come to a point where it's becomes faith.
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Post by dreman999 on Jun 1, 2017 3:40:00 GMT
What's the difference between "faith" and "a methodological assumption with an overwhelming amount of inductive support," exactly? Is there a substantive dispute here, or is this just rhetoric? faith is belief in the absence of (or even contrary to) evidence, so the difference between the two is the difference between having an absence of X and an overwhelming amount of X www.dictionary.com/browse/faith take the time to look up the words meaning.
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Post by dreman999 on Jun 1, 2017 3:41:54 GMT
It's not faith that gravity, to use your example, will work and continue to work. It's awe and humility and thankfulness in the beauty and perfection of the universe, and believing that all of that means something. And that there's a guiding force behind and responsible for that beauty and perfection. I don't see how that could possibly be simplified or summarized to, "it works so it'll continue to work." And you don't get that out side our perspective of reality something can come along and change that.
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Post by R'Shara on Jun 1, 2017 3:42:14 GMT
Faith can be defined in different ways. There's faith based on fact, and there's faith based on religion. (Note that I'm not saying those are mutually exclusive)
noun 1. confidence or trust in a person or thing: faith in another's ability. 2. belief that is not based on proof: He had faith that the hypothesis would be substantiated by fact. 3. belief in God or in the doctrines or teachings of religion: the firm faith of the Pilgrims. 4. belief in anything, as a code of ethics, standards of merit, etc.: to be of the same faith with someone concerning honesty. 5. a system of religious belief:
You're trying to equate 1 with 2, when they have different definitions.
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Post by alanc9 on Jun 1, 2017 3:43:32 GMT
What's the difference between "faith" and "a methodological assumption with an overwhelming amount of inductive support," exactly? Is there a substantive dispute here, or is this just rhetoric? faith is belief in the absence of (or even contrary to) evidence, so the difference between the two is the difference between having an absence of X and an overwhelming amount of X Makes sense, but I thought dreman999 was going somewhere else with his definition of faith, someplace I didn't quite follow.
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Post by R'Shara on Jun 1, 2017 3:44:29 GMT
I can believe that I can go up the stairs two at a time. That has absolutely nothing to do with religion or belief. It's a fact. I can believe that the Earth is flat. That has absolutely nothing to do with fact. It's a myth. So if I believe that, it's pure faith.
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Post by alanc9 on Jun 1, 2017 3:49:00 GMT
What's the difference between "faith" and "a methodological assumption with an overwhelming amount of inductive support," exactly? Is there a substantive dispute here, or is this just rhetoric? I suppose there's a nonzero probability that gravity will suddenly stop working the way it always has, but the probability of that is so low that it's not worth my time to think about. Is that "faith"? I thought faith was a little more robust than that. It's not an argument about worrying about it happening. It's an argument of the irony to look down one faith when we blindly fallow another one regardless to the fact that we don't know if it will change or not. The point is the belief of gravity is on of faith to it's define word. faith: confidence or trust in a person or thingYou don't question gravity working. yet there is a possibility of it not working, but you still trust anyway. That still a matter of faith. i'm just saying many of the trust in sciece when truelly understand them come to a point where it's becomes faith. Sneaking "blindly" there isn't sound. We're not blind. It's not useful to consider the extremely-low-probability cases, so we don't.
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Post by dreman999 on Jun 1, 2017 3:49:59 GMT
It's not faith that gravity, to use your example, will work and continue to work. It's awe and humility and thankfulness in the beauty and perfection of the universe, and believing that all of that means something. And that there's a guiding force behind and responsible for that beauty and perfection. I don't see how that could possibly be simplified or summarized to, "it works so it'll continue to work." when you drop a rock, do you have faith- belief without evidence- that it will fall to the ground? or do you believe it will fall to the ground because in all past instances, objects fall to the ground when dropped (i.e. evidence)? the whole entire argument here hinges on ignoring the difference between having no evidence, and having evidence that falls short of complete logical proof You don't get my argument. My point is base on the fact of limited perspective. True, you drop a rock and it will fall. that will always happen but we don't no why it will always happen.. because we don't know why it will always happen we don't everything in exsistace that could stop it from falling. Because we can only sense things on a 3d plain we can't see what can effect it on other plains and if by chance something passes by out side our perspective that stop that rock from fall then we would not know why or how it did not fall. If everything stays the same gravity works the way we think it does. but it something comes along that we can't sense that changes gravity then the rock does not drop the way we think it will or not at all. aka murphy's law. But we still say gravity will never change but never factor in that fact that something can change it.
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Post by q5tyhj on Jun 1, 2017 3:50:13 GMT
faith is belief in the absence of (or even contrary to) evidence, so the difference between the two is the difference between having an absence of X and an overwhelming amount of X www.dictionary.com/browse/faith take the time to look up the words meaning. guess you missed #2, "belief not based on proof", which is the relevant sense of "faith" in this context, i.e. faith in the truth-value of a given proposition
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Post by dutchsghost7 on Jun 1, 2017 3:50:18 GMT
Isn't suvi a Muslim?
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Post by dmc1001 on Jun 1, 2017 3:50:22 GMT
Honestly I think the OP has more of an agenda/bias than BioWare does. I concur.
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Post by dreman999 on Jun 1, 2017 3:50:36 GMT
Faith can be defined in different ways. There's faith based on fact, and there's faith based on religion. (Note that I'm not saying those are mutually exclusive) noun 1. c onfidence or trust in a person or thing:faith in another's ability. 2. belief that is not based on proof:He had faith that the hypothesis would be substantiated by fact. 3. belief in God or in the doctrines or teachings of religion: the firm faith of the Pilgrims. 4. belief in anything, as a code of ethics, standards of merit, etc.: to be of the same faith with someone concerning honesty. 5. a system of religious belief: You're trying to equate 1 with 2, when they have different definitions. it's the same word and concept.
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Post by dreman999 on Jun 1, 2017 3:51:39 GMT
guess you missed #2, "belief not based on proof", which is the relevant sense of "faith" in this context, i.e. faith in the truth-value of a given proposition As i said before , same word, same concept. Belief that gravity will always work with no proof it will always work is still a matter of faith.
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Post by R'Shara on Jun 1, 2017 3:52:19 GMT
It has different definitions depending on usage, though. Just like "you" can mean an individual or a group of people.
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Post by R'Shara on Jun 1, 2017 3:53:42 GMT
I can believe that I can go up the stairs two at a time. That has absolutely nothing to do with religion or belief. It's a fact. I can believe that the Earth is flat. That has absolutely nothing to do with fact. It's a myth. So if I believe that, it's pure faith. ^^ 1st statement is definition #1. 2nd statement is definition #2.
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Post by dmc1001 on Jun 1, 2017 3:55:12 GMT
I agree Passion, I wasn't at all happy with the way BW intentionally framed a lot of the conversations with Suvi about her beliefs. In the end you can only say you don't believe or tell Suvi she will fool herself into believing whatever she wants anyway. You never really have the option to just wholeheartedly agree with her. Just another notch in BW's "tolerance" belt I guess. /shrug That's definitely how you chose to read it. I interpreted it as Ryder saying that faith trumps the details. It's only in the modern era that people think absolute proof is required. Proof isn't faith.
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Post by dreman999 on Jun 1, 2017 3:57:07 GMT
It has different definitions depending on usage, though. Just like "you" can mean an individual or a group of people. Yet you can say gravity will always work with no proof it will always work.
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Post by R'Shara on Jun 1, 2017 3:59:44 GMT
Your definition of faith is the weirdest I've ever seen.
The proof is that it has worked--for billions of years--for every test every done, created, or thought of. Evidence. Empirical evidence.
By your logic, EVERYTHING is a matter of faith. That you'll continue breathing, that water is wet, that your eyelids will continue to function, that the neck bone connects to the head bone...
And that's NOT the faith that these scientists are talking about.
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Post by colfoley on Jun 1, 2017 4:02:50 GMT
Your definition of faith is the weirdest I've ever seen. The proof is that it has worked--for billions of years--for every test every done, created, or thought of. Evidence. Empirical evidence. By your logic, EVERYTHING is a matter of faith. That you'll continue breathing, that water is wet, that your eyelids will continue to function, that the neck bone connects to the head bone... And that's NOT the faith that these scientists are talking about. technically it is. Given how limited Human perception is almost everything is a matter of faith at the bottom.
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Post by R'Shara on Jun 1, 2017 4:06:39 GMT
Well then, everyone, everywhere, is required to have faith. It's not even optional. And so the original point is sort of invalidated.
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