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Post by goishen on Jun 8, 2017 1:25:38 GMT
Damn right. Anonymous sources. Yo... I have anonymous sources too. But that's how it works. It's not as if people spill the beans if they are named. Hi, I'm John Doe, working as an animator at Bioware Montreal. Let me tell you some company secrets, but plaese get my name right, since I'm tired of my job and want to be sued out of my livelihood. "Hi, I'm John Doe and I'd like to be sued back to the Stone Age." lol That made me literally laugh.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 8, 2017 1:25:45 GMT
Since back in 2016, anonymous sources have been getting used and abused as a way for people to push whatever bullshit they want to sell. These last few years have shamed journalistic integrity beyond what I ever thought was possible. Basically, any idiot now can say whatever the hell they want and cite an anonymous source. It's the new go to. Years ago, when journalists wanted to write quality stories that made a difference in the world things were different. Now? If there is click bait involved, I don't even begin to believe it. There is a huge difference between Woodward and Benrstein and this garbage which is not even particularly newsworthy except to a bunch of very bored gamers. So many grains of salt sprinkling down from the sky on this one. This is why I'm not convinced, but as others have pointed out that are much more in tune with PR and journalism (I was a sports editor for my college paper, the Bells. That's the extent of my journalism) that there is quite a bit of truth in the story. Of course, BioWare and EA declined to comment so yeah... it's not looking good. Also, Kotaku isn't known for being truthful. They're in the business of speculation, but sometimes... sometimes you can speculate and get it right. I don't know. What I see is that there are some key facts known to anyone that can be taken and twisted into any context one wants. I feel like 'oh it's been some weeks since kotoku got some great click bait out of MEA/BW so we were due.' I suspect he got some of it right but it's the some of it any moron could have guessed mostly around casey's departure. Who didn't think that would change things quite a bit? And probably a few other details pieced together. But at this point, it feels like people are holding a grudge against this game like it's got a handle and it's kind of a joke to those that have moved on which is most people. It's headed toward three months since it's been out. That's a long time for people to be hung up on a game they didn't like. I mean, three months might go by fast but there's so much more people could be doing and instead it's dwelling on hate for a game. If someone loves it or really likes it that is a different story. It's energy spent feeling good on something positive that you like.
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Post by Cyan_Griffonclaw on Jun 8, 2017 1:33:28 GMT
This is why I'm not convinced, but as others have pointed out that are much more in tune with PR and journalism (I was a sports editor for my college paper, the Bells. That's the extent of my journalism) that there is quite a bit of truth in the story. Of course, BioWare and EA declined to comment so yeah... it's not looking good. Also, Kotaku isn't known for being truthful. They're in the business of speculation, but sometimes... sometimes you can speculate and get it right. I don't know. What I see is that there are some key facts known to anyone that can be taken and twisted into any context one wants. I feel like 'oh it's been some weeks since kotoku got some great click bait out of MEA/BW so we were due.' I suspect he got some of it right but it's the some of it any moron could have guessed mostly around casey's departure. Who didn't think that would change things quite a bit? And probably a few other details pieced together. But at this point, it feels like people are holding a grudge against this game like it's got a handle and it's kind of a joke to those that have moved on which is most people. It's headed toward three months since it's been out. That's a long time for people to be hung up on a game they didn't like. I mean, three months might go by fast but there's so much more people could be doing and instead it's dwelling on hate for a game. If someone loves it or really likes it that is a different story. It's energy spent feeling good on something positive that you like. Exactly. The hype train came and went. All this does is kick a dead horse and I just checked Glassdoor and a few other sites. No real new activity. So, I'm not seeing the downsizing they mentioned in their earlier story that was edited twice by the way. Still... there is enough there to damn BioWare anyway. I feel bad for the people that have talent and had to put up with the bullsh** atmosphere. Those NDAs are probably going to get reviewed, passed out again and signed by employees if HR is awake at the wheel. Derp.
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Post by zipzap2000 on Jun 8, 2017 1:41:03 GMT
The Nomad is better than the horse, but structurally, that's exactly how Inquisition worked. Zones with self-contained storylines and exploration. Again, still structurally indifferent than Inquisition, and I'd argue the quality to crap quest ratio still isn't all that great. Literally every BioWare game since Mass Effect has been fully voiced. How is this even a feature? Kinda? That's still exactly how it works in InquisitionIt's spelled crashed, and anecdotes aren't evidence. I've heard far more reports of serious bugs for Andromeda than I have for Inquisition. Still has nothing to do with structure, and no, on companions alone Inquisition has a more visually pleasing cast, but even the secondary and auto-generated characters look pretty universally better. Hell, before the patch, many people's eyes in Andromeda looked flat out disturbing. What? The romance system works exactly the same between these two games. That Andromeda conveniently had a romance that appealed specifically to you doesn't have any bearing on the formula. But once again, no, the romances in Inquisition were almost uniformly superior with more nuance (albeit slightly) and relationship hitches than those in Andromeda. Let me reiterate: you implied that Andromeda is less formulaic than Inquisition. You've yet to show how Andromeda's formula, no matter how well (or poorly as the case may be) it was executed, is significantly different than Inquisition. I vehemently disagree with your opinion of Andromeda, but regardless of your subjective assessment of the game, your objective understanding of it's formula is factually incorrect. I'm completely in agreement with these statements. I love Sci-Fi and Fantasy genres equally, and I have to admit it was hard for me to get through my fourth playthrough with ME:A and I played DA:I through easily half a dozen times and I am likely going to play it again after I finish the latest chapter of SWTOR. I'm sorry that DAI didn't have what the poster 'Carefull' wanted in a game, but I really think this person in in the minority. I agree. And I hate agreeing because I've always regarded DA as the B franchise. DA:I at least feels like a game with a setting. I remember going through Kadara and saying "This was made by a different team who weren't in contact with the others." It was obvious when remnant pillars and glyphs and beams suddenly starting changing colours depending on what planet you were on. It just doesn't feel right to keep playing it when switching planets makes me wonder about the development process rather than what I want to do next.
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Post by slimgrin on Jun 8, 2017 2:20:37 GMT
Wow. It was a disaster. Mac actually saved the damn thing. How in the hell can an experienced dev under EA get so much wrong?
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Post by Steelcan on Jun 8, 2017 2:56:12 GMT
Wow. It was a disaster. Mac actually saved the damn thing. How in the hell can an experienced dev under EA get so much wrong? While I don't really want to defend MEA too much, BioWare Montreal was clearly not up to the task and it should not have been given to them
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Post by fchopin on Jun 8, 2017 2:59:06 GMT
Wow. It was a disaster. Mac actually saved the damn thing. How in the hell can an experienced dev under EA get so much wrong? If this is true then Mac may have saved Mass Effect by making sure the game was playable on day one.
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Post by Eterna on Jun 8, 2017 3:14:16 GMT
I know it's kotaku, but this article, unlike the one about ME being shelved, is simply too detailed to just dismiss it as being pulled out of someone's ass. It really isn't too detailed to dismiss. People have come up with far more elaborate shit to get some clicks. I just can't take it seriously without stated sources and other avenues backing up the claims.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 8, 2017 3:19:45 GMT
The Nomad is better than the horse, but structurally, that's exactly how Inquisition worked. Zones with self-contained storylines and exploration. Again, still structurally indifferent than Inquisition, and I'd argue the quality to crap quest ratio still isn't all that great. Literally every BioWare game since Mass Effect has been fully voiced. How is this even a feature? Kinda? That's still exactly how it works in InquisitionIt's spelled crashed, and anecdotes aren't evidence. I've heard far more reports of serious bugs for Andromeda than I have for Inquisition. Still has nothing to do with structure, and no, on companions alone Inquisition has a more visually pleasing cast, but even the secondary and auto-generated characters look pretty universally better. Hell, before the patch, many people's eyes in Andromeda looked flat out disturbing. What? The romance system works exactly the same between these two games. That Andromeda conveniently had a romance that appealed specifically to you doesn't have any bearing on the formula. But once again, no, the romances in Inquisition were almost uniformly superior with more nuance (albeit slightly) and relationship hitches than those in Andromeda. Let me reiterate: you implied that Andromeda is less formulaic than Inquisition. You've yet to show how Andromeda's formula, no matter how well (or poorly as the case may be) it was executed, is significantly different than Inquisition. I vehemently disagree with your opinion of Andromeda, but regardless of your subjective assessment of the game, your objective understanding of it's formula is factually incorrect. I'm completely in agreement with these statements. I love Sci-Fi and Fantasy genres equally, and I have to admit it was hard for me to get through my fourth playthrough with ME:A and I played DA:I through easily half a dozen times and I am likely going to play it again after I finish the latest chapter of SWTOR. I'm sorry that DAI didn't have what the poster 'Carefull' wanted in a game, but I really think this person in in the minority. Most assuredly not in the minority. I remember the hate threads for that game. One of them was like 90 pages long. I popped in there from time to time and lots of new people posted. And I was definitely among one of the people who did NOT like that game. I played it on and off for two months desperately trying to find the fun because I loved DAO beyond comprehension. Just because people don't see things the way you do doesn't mean that they are in the minority. I'm not saying that to be mean or harsh but I see that a lot in this forum and this article typifies that point when the writer opens with how many people don't like the game when really it's some people who don't like it and spend an inordinate time filling up forums and comments on you tube hating on it. DAI by my standards was one of the most boring and uninspired games I've ever played. Two months of my life I kept going back and trying to get into it because I loved DAO and yes, it did have some things that were good. In the end, it was the most tedious thing I ever played. So many things about that game were outright awful that the brief good moments could not save it no matter how good they were. Mind you, that is MY opinion. I do not speak for all but damn that game sucked for me. Now on the other hand, my girl like it, kind of. Mostly she loved Dorian and found him amusing as hell. But even then she wasn't really in love with it. She just played it now and then in between cycles of building pawns in Dragon's Dogma which she did for 1.5 years straight. So a few hours every week or two. Not really ambitious gaming but filler from my perspective. I think it might have taken her half a year to finish one run which is telling to me.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 8, 2017 3:34:12 GMT
Wow. It was a disaster. Mac actually saved the damn thing. How in the hell can an experienced dev under EA get so much wrong? If this is true then Mac may have saved Mass Effect by making sure the game was playable on day one. It seems my words on another thread attributing the poor reception of the game to Mac because he was the director, and the buck stops with the director, might've been, as it turns out, blind, as he wasn't even the original director but was brought in as a replacement director to salvage the game. Perhaps his personal touch brought flaws, but he did deliver a full game that some enjoyed and some at least thought was ok. So if that's the case, I take back my words about Mac. He may have been the hero we deserved, even if not the one we needed right at release.
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Post by mmoblitz on Jun 8, 2017 3:39:25 GMT
A lot of good information here. EA and Bioware haven't commented on the article, as he mentioned, but he spoke to many of the people that worked on the project. Seems like one of the most messed up game production of our time. "Many of those core ideas had persisted, like the main character, Ryder; SAM, the artificial intelligence that melds with Ryder; and the final sequence on Meridian. But most of the quests and dialogue needed to be designed and written. “ What you see [in the final game] is writing that has been done in the past two years rather than the full five years of writing,” said a developer on the game. “The writing team—writing the characters and everything—was unleashed too late, just because of too many discussions about the high-level direction.” This is the most Interesting quote to me, though there are a lot of tidbits like that in here. Explains a lot about the most disappointing thing in MEA for me, the writing. Story/characters are the only reason I even buy bioware games and now I see why this one felt the worst of the series for me.
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Post by mmoblitz on Jun 8, 2017 3:46:06 GMT
Brace for the defensive responses from people who won't even read this article and claim that it's bullshit because "it's Kotaku". I'm reading it, but it is Kotaku. Please don't make light that of that. And yes, it's a good read, but how much is actual facts and not speculation presented as facts. Anyway, you don't need Kotako to tell you that the game should never have been released in the state it was in. As a matter of fact, I still think it shouldn't been released now. 1.05 did a lot to fix the unfinished mess that was sold to us, but it is still a mess. Also, I'm reading excuses. Lots and lots of excuses. Shame on BioWare and EA. You know what... knowing this, has anyone been fired at the upper echelons of EA and BioWare? No... of course not. Kind of makes sense now though as to why a bunch of leads left during development. I thought it odd and so did my cousin who works in the gaming industry that they would bail during production. My cousin suspected something was amiss as did I.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 8, 2017 3:55:45 GMT
If that article is accurate then the moral of the story is: Get your ducks in a row or don't bother because it will be one big clusterfuck.
Positive side, if this story is accurate then MEA2 will come because they will all know why MEA didn't do well. And MEA2 will be a billion times better assuming lessons were learned. Ultimately, it really does seem like Casey's departure probably was the game's undoing and I suspect it is impacting Dylan. But now that they have Mac set in place, it should go well for the next games to come.
Hard to hate on them after reading that article. Even if 1/4 of it is true, it wasn't really anyone's fault and certainly not due to lack of trying. Kind of feel bad for all the people who worked their asses off under miserable conditions only to probably see the awful hate memes. It sounds like lots of confusion and nobody realizing how bad it was because so many people left that were pretty key to development.
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Post by auu on Jun 8, 2017 3:56:52 GMT
This is what happens when you have a C team working on one of your top properties. They were basically doing heavy R&D to get a grip on how to copy what the other three games did, and then Walters came on and tried stiching a game out of their efforts. Awful.
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Post by Shinobu on Jun 8, 2017 4:15:17 GMT
If that article is accurate then the moral of the story is: Get your ducks in a row or don't bother because it will be one big clusterfuck. Positive side, if this story is accurate then MEA2 will come because they will all know why MEA didn't do well. And MEA2 will be a billion times better assuming lessons were learned. Ultimately, it really does seem like Casey's departure probably was the game's undoing and I suspect it is impacting Dylan. But now that they have Mac set in place, it should go well for the next games to come. Hard to hate on them after reading that article. Even if 1/4 of it is true, it wasn't really anyone's fault and certainly not due to lack of trying. Kind of feel bad for all the people who worked their asses off under miserable conditions only to probably see the awful hate memes. It sounds like lots of confusion and nobody realizing how bad it was because so many people left that were pretty key to development. Another nice thing is that they have already dealt with many of the drawbacks of the new engine and have assets built, so hopefully they can spend more time on making the next game great instead of struggling just to make it work. Also, so glad the "100s of planets" idea was abandoned. It sounds mind numbingly tedious.
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Post by chris2365 on Jun 8, 2017 4:22:31 GMT
I've said it before and will say it again. Casey Hudson's departure was a major blow to the franchise. Not that it cannot recover, but him leaving while this was getting off the ground did them no favors. I think he was the original visionary of ME and the driving force behind it, good or bad. And I think a lot of people knew and felt it because after he left many others followed. If you have someone that really is the glue of a project and then they leave and other key players leave, this is what happens. But that said, considering the loss of many key staff, I'm surprised they got it together at all. Completely agree here. I remember everyone wanted Hudson and Walters gone after the end of ME3. In the back of my mind, all I could say was "Be careful what you wish for". When Hudson left Bioware, I knew it wasn't good news. I mean, say what you will about the ME3 ending (which may be his only mistake, according to some), the guy still did deliver some of the greatest RPG's of all time, including KOTOR and the entire Mass Effect trilogy. Credit given to all the people who made Mass Effect a reality, but at its core, Mass Effect was Hudson's baby. Based off the Kotaku article, it sounds like he had enough. He wanted to give it another try, he toughed it out after the incredible backlash of ME3's ending. He wanted to do right by the franchise and make another worthy Mass Effect game. But in the end, all the internal politics and lack of progress made him say that enough was enough. With the reins handed to Montreal, it must have become difficult to coordinate and have a clear, cohesive vision like he had for the original trilogy. And I honestly can't fault the guy for wanting to get out of an environment where he wasn't happy anymore. It's quite sad that Hudson had to leave, but overall, I still think Mass Effect can recover from this. I think the potential was there for MEA, and considering that the game was built in such a short time frame, they should consider it a heck of an accomplishment. I can just dream as to how much better this game would have been if it had a solid vision from the beginning and no distractions. And ironically enough, it's the ultimate "villain" himself, Mac Walters who saves the day. I think I wrote this quote on these forums on the day Hudson left Bioware, but I think it hold true for Walters as well. "You will have gone from being the Sith Lord himself, to the Savior of our galaxy" (Bioware, all I can say to you, is "Keep to the stars, for one day soon, the dawn will come". I'm confident you guys will bounce back )
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Post by duckley on Jun 8, 2017 4:35:59 GMT
If true, kudos to Bioware for pulling together a solidly fun game despite the challenges. The article said that "some people enjoyed the game"... I would say a lot of people enjoyed the game. Other that that I don't have a problem with the article.
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Post by UutIVvdPw7END0Ef on Jun 8, 2017 4:57:24 GMT
Inb4 *posts new YongYea video* Gotta milk that dead cow some more.
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Post by empirex on Jun 8, 2017 4:59:29 GMT
Wow. It was a disaster. Mac actually saved the damn thing. How in the hell can an experienced dev under EA get so much wrong? Easy. Bioware Montreal isn't an experienced dev. Hell, half of the original leads weren't even from Bioware but the amalgamation of new devs from other studios (e.g. Epic, Bungie, Beenox) It's not mind boggling to see Montreal devs just got Bioware's name slapped on it by EA to increase sales. EA clearly wanted a studio in Montreal since apparently it's cheaper etc.
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Post by zipzap2000 on Jun 8, 2017 5:04:16 GMT
Wow. It was a disaster. Mac actually saved the damn thing. How in the hell can an experienced dev under EA get so much wrong? If this is true then Mac may have saved Mass Effect by making sure the game was playable on day one. Its amazing to think about how bad it might have been before that, if true.
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Post by mordrek on Jun 8, 2017 5:08:12 GMT
I think the article confirms a lot of what was suspected. Mainly that it ended up being a short DevCycle (18 months), and the story/writing wasn't together. All the people who gave ME:A a pass on it's writing just make me shake my head. I feel for the rank and file though, 2+ years of your life, dedicated to something that underwhelms. Has to be terrible. Sounds like the blame is being placed on the little guys at Bioware Montreal too, and not with the people at the top.
I still don't understand, how if you have such a truncated DevCycle, why you wouldn't cut multiplayer. It seems like a no brainer.
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Post by chris2365 on Jun 8, 2017 6:06:41 GMT
I think the article confirms a lot of what was suspected. Mainly that it ended up being a short DevCycle (18 months), and the story/writing wasn't together. All the people who gave ME:A a pass on it's writing just make me shake my head. I feel for the rank and file though, 2+ years of your life, dedicated to something that underwhelms. Has to be terrible. Sounds like the blame is being placed on the little guys at Bioware Montreal too, and not with the people at the top. I still don't understand, how if you have such a truncated DevCycle, why you wouldn't cut multiplayer. It seems like a no brainer. Alas, its been proven that it just doesn't work like that. People think that, for example, EA gives Bioware 50 million to make MEA, and then Bioware does what they want with the money to make MEA. In reality, if Bioware pitches MEA as a single-player only game to EA, then they only get 30 million to make the game. They get the full 50 million if they include multiplayer, since it brings in money from micro transactions. EA gives Bioware a budget according to the potential money the game could make. So in reality, Bioware couldn't just cut out the multi-player if they wanted. They were given 50 million to make MEA a single and multi player game. If they just wanted a single player game, they would have a smaller budget. In short, multi-player does not steal time and resources from single-player, as some think. Multi-player is given its own extra budget and resources to develop.
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Post by suikoden on Jun 8, 2017 7:06:14 GMT
I think the article confirms a lot of what was suspected. Mainly that it ended up being a short DevCycle (18 months), and the story/writing wasn't together. All the people who gave ME:A a pass on it's writing just make me shake my head. I feel for the rank and file though, 2+ years of your life, dedicated to something that underwhelms. Has to be terrible. Sounds like the blame is being placed on the little guys at Bioware Montreal too, and not with the people at the top. I still don't understand, how if you have such a truncated DevCycle, why you wouldn't cut multiplayer. It seems like a no brainer. Because they knew the single player sucked but the combat was it's only redeeming point... multiplayer will milk that and make up for the lack of sales. If anything, they doubled down on multiplayer - just look at the patch notes - multiplayer dwarfs single player content.
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Post by clips7 on Jun 8, 2017 7:11:18 GMT
So they wasted time talking and not doing after a lot of people left, then had 18mo to do anything they actually could while understaffed. And the reason it was released at all before it was ready, I speculate, EA wanted a return; there was no 'option to delay for another 6 months.' Because if there was, it was really really really stupid not to. Once again, as I said in another thread. Look at the release date. It was virtually the last order call for the fiscal year of 2016. That's all one has to know to understand why they couldn't delay for another 6 months. This...after reading the article tho.. part of me feels bad for Bioware. Seems like management was mostly to blame here, then with people leaving left and right, then another huge hiccup?.....Outsourcing....nothing good ever comes from that. You are clearly having studios make fragmented parts of the game then they send you that part back THEN you have to integrate it into the game itself. That entire article seems like the development of Andromeda was a torrential mess. Storyline issues, animation issues, sense of scope, level development, planet exploration, game direction..etc...these issues that normally plague game development seems to be ten-fold here. I've always stated that this game was released because of EA's end of year fiscal commitments. They already had a ton of pre-orders and figured they weathered the storm through critical patches...but the game still had other pressing issues outside of animation and story concepts. I feel for the team tho, because it seemed like they REALLY wanted to make a great ambitious title for the fans....the team just wasn't capable and didn't have the necessary staff, skillset and resources to fully compliment the development.
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by ProbeAway on Jun 8, 2017 7:21:24 GMT
I really liked that article. (I do wonder about the 100km x 100km bit tho - why would anyone want a map bigger than that? The final Andromeda maps were less than 1/10th of that size and Bioware was already struggling to fill them with meaningful content.) I wondered about that also. But I have to admit that I don't know how that size translates in terms of gameplay. Is a kilometer in game the same size as a real kilometer. I never got the feeling of driving more than ten, maybe 20 kilometers across any map. I'd be surprised if any of them were even 10x10km. If you could avoid obstructions like hills and enemies, there is no way it would take more than 6 minutes to cross any map in the Nomad going at a consistent 100km/h.
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