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Post by kumazan on Jun 7, 2017 16:42:12 GMT
Frostbite seems to keep being the problem (not bad just not fit for purpose). Dragon Age Inquisition appears to have had a turbulent development and got away with it. Mass Effect Andromeda less so. I like both games. Dragon Age Inquisition has more issues than the GOTY awards credit and is saved largely by its characters. Mass Effect Andromeda is a better game than the launch memes suggest and whilst the criticism was mostly fair, some of it was over-zealous. Both games appeared to be pressured developments: Dragon Age Inquisition got away with it. Mass Effect Andromeda got caught out. I think blaming Frostbite is the easy way out, much like blaming EA for any shortcoming BW faces. Football and car racing games are being developed in Frostbite, so while it was originally developed for FPS games, way different games are being developed with some success. If this story is true, this is pretty damning for the management (producers and above) of BioWare, but the engine, while difficult to work on, and probably not the most fitting for the kind of games BioWare makes, can't be blamed for most of the issues of ME:A (and DA:I).
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Post by Iakus on Jun 7, 2017 16:42:32 GMT
Sounds like Mac Walters deserves some credit. Mac Walters might have saved Mass Effect. At least, for those who didn't like the game, from being way worse than it was. The thought of this makes me ROFL, it's my favourite part of the article. It reminds me of a scene in the Infinity Gauntlet comic. Wolverine saves a woman from being crushed by a collapsing building, and she's all "You saved me!" Logan goes "That I did, ma'am..." Then the next panel cuts to a wider view and you see the absolute wreckage the city had become, and Logan continues "...though it remains to be seen if I did ya any favors"
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Post by luketrevelyan on Jun 7, 2017 16:42:35 GMT
Frostbite seems to keep being the problem (not bad just not fit for purpose). Dragon Age Inquisition appears to have had a turbulent development and got away with it. Mass Effect Andromeda less so. I like both games. Dragon Age Inquisition has more issues than the GOTY awards credit and is saved largely by its characters. Mass Effect Andromeda is a better game than the launch memes suggest and whilst the criticism was mostly fair, some of it was over-zealous. Both games appeared to be pressured developments: Dragon Age Inquisition got away with it. Mass Effect Andromeda got caught out. I largely agree with this. I think DAI got away with more due to it being 2014 and having weak competition at the time. MEA had a much higher standard to meet in 2017 after TW3 plus BotW and HZD releases. I also like both games, though I think they have different strengths and weaknesses. For me, DAI has a better story and characters. MEA greatly improved the side quests and has more enjoyable combat. I would still lean towards DAI being the better game but I also typically like DA games more than ME anyway. Frostbite does seem to be an issue. Hopefully they've worked out a lot of the problems for future games at this point. If it is still going to be a big headache they just need to move on (though not sure EA would allow that).
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Post by KaiserShep on Jun 7, 2017 16:44:41 GMT
You're pretty much alone in that opinion, which is fine. To each their own and you do you. Still to me and most people Inquisition is a better game than Andromeda in every aspect, and it had less time in development and was the teams first meet with Frostbite. yeah it probably was really the only thing that MEA has probably done better than DAI is probably hairstyles as I have to admit the female hairstyles in MEA I like a lot or at ;least a lot more than the options we got for DAI but that aside I'd say DAI has ended up trumping MEA in terms of general overall quality. I would say that in general, Dragon Age has a history of possessing overall superior quality in terms of writing and storytelling over any Mass Effect game. Mass Effect has a lot of big ideas throughout, but they never quite come together like the best of Dragon Age.
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Post by Conquer Your Dreams on Jun 7, 2017 16:45:19 GMT
Dragon Age Inquisition got great companions and amazing soundtrack, was also well written and got a lot of emotional, memorable moments. Mass Effect Andromeda got 1 great companion, 2 average and that's it; soundtrack doesn't exist, writing is childish at some points and memorable moments ? NONE.
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Post by abaris on Jun 7, 2017 16:47:06 GMT
Dragon Age Inquisition got great companions and amazing soundtrack, was also well written and got a lot of emotional, memorable moments. Mass Effect Andromeda got 1 great companion, 2 average and that's it; soundtrack doesn't exist, writing is childish at some points and memorable moments ? NONE. In a nutshell, yes. That's the difference between the two.
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Post by blanks on Jun 7, 2017 16:47:06 GMT
This article seems to confirm (or maybe just collect) a lot of the rumors we heard prior to the game's launch. Not having a clear idea of what kind of game you were going to make, not having the tools for the job settled before starting the work, and the institutional dysfunction (producers can't get meetings across time zones organized, really?) it doesn't sound like BioWare Montreal was set up to succeed. I'd like to hear more details on the relationship between EA's various production studios and the Frostbite team. It seems really weird to me that EA would not want to have the Frostbite team assist in giving their prestige studio the tools to make their games. Is the Frostbite team also understaffed? Was the production team in Montreal too pigheaded to ask for help? Did time zones foil their plans again? (Vote Jonah Ryan) From this article it sounds like there's a lot riding on Dylan and if that's the case, it's been nice knowing all of you. Hard to see that game succeeding, even now that it's not launching directly against Destiny 2 (instead it'll likely be going up against the first Taken King style expansion) and having to contend with the public perception that BioWare is technically incompetent (especially given how lousy an experience many people had and continue to have with ME:A's multiplayer). Those kind of views are hard to shake once they're ingrained (see Obsidian) and BioWare's last few games have been widely mocked for their glitches. Edit: www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=239510985&postcount=179Not unexpected, but damn.
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Post by kumazan on Jun 7, 2017 16:49:58 GMT
Mac Walters might have saved Mass Effect. At least, for those who didn't like the game, from being way worse than it was. The thought of this makes me ROFL, it's my favourite part of the article. It reminds me of a scene in the Infinity Gauntlet comic. Wolverine saves a woman from being crushed by a collapsing building, and she's all "You saved me!" Logan goes "That I did, ma'am..." Then the next panel cuts to a wider view and you see the absolute wreckage the city had become, and Logan continues "...though it remains to be seen if I did ya any favors" Fair point. I must say, though, that as much of a cynic as I might be at times, I haven't reached the "death is better" point.
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Post by sjsharp2010 on Jun 7, 2017 16:52:28 GMT
yeah it probably was really the only thing that MEA has probably done better than DAI is probably hairstyles as I have to admit the female hairstyles in MEA I like a lot or at ;least a lot more than the options we got for DAI but that aside I'd say DAI has ended up trumping MEA in terms of general overall quality. I would say that in general, Dragon Age has a history of possessing overall superior quality in terms of writing and storytelling over any Mass Effect game. Mass Effect has a lot of big ideas throughout, but they never quite come together like the best of Dragon Age. I don't know about that as the ME trilogy is much better storywise than what DA has served up but that's my opinion based on the fact I prefer sci fi over fantasy. I think both series deserve their place though as they are both fantastic series.
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Post by RoboticWater on Jun 7, 2017 16:54:40 GMT
Are you kidding me? Andromeda has awesome areas with road, fun to drive vehicle, and great planetary story. The Nomad is better than the horse, but structurally, that's exactly how Inquisition worked. Zones with self-contained storylines and exploration. Again, still structurally indifferent than Inquisition, and I'd argue the quality to crap quest ratio still isn't all that great. Literally every BioWare game since Mass Effect has been fully voiced. How is this even a feature? Kinda? That's still exactly how it works in InquisitionIt's spelled crashed, and anecdotes aren't evidence. I've heard far more reports of serious bugs for Andromeda than I have for Inquisition. Still has nothing to do with structure, and no, on companions alone Inquisition has a more visually pleasing cast, but even the secondary and auto-generated characters look pretty universally better. Hell, before the patch, many people's eyes in Andromeda looked flat out disturbing. What? The romance system works exactly the same between these two games. That Andromeda conveniently had a romance that appealed specifically to you doesn't have any bearing on the formula. But once again, no, the romances in Inquisition were almost uniformly superior with more nuance (albeit slightly) and relationship hitches than those in Andromeda. Let me reiterate: you implied that Andromeda is less formulaic than Inquisition. You've yet to show how Andromeda's formula, no matter how well (or poorly as the case may be) it was executed, is significantly different than Inquisition. I vehemently disagree with your opinion of Andromeda, but regardless of your subjective assessment of the game, your objective understanding of it's formula is factually incorrect.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 7, 2017 16:54:46 GMT
Dragon Age Inquisition got great companions and amazing soundtrack, was also well written and got a lot of emotional, memorable moments. Mass Effect Andromeda got 1 great companion, 2 average and that's it; soundtrack doesn't exist, writing is childish at some points and memorable moments ? NONE. Yeah... no. Inquisition had one companion I liked, and talking to him was awesome. The quest sequence between the start of the game and Skyhold was good, particularly the Whispers. If the game ended there, it would have been fine. But what happens afterwards is boring, uninspired and pretty much pointless to play after Crestwood. Winter Palace Quest is a contender to the Worst Story Quest Ever Designed. Andromeda, on the other hand gets better and better, and the missions become more complex and more interesting as the game goes on. The Vaults in Andromeda are amazing, and so are the worlds. And the whole mother load of uninspiring characters in Inquisition, all 13 of them charging your poor inquisitor with walking around the maps gathering 3 of this and 15 of that, then getting a cutscene or two of personal quests are way worse than actual quest sequences with some serious fighting & not reused areas for Loyalty Mission in Andromeda. And the characters ALWAYS talk to you, and react to the game events in Andromeda, while in Inquisition they are oblivious for the most of the game, no matter what you do.
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Post by Fiery Phoenix on Jun 7, 2017 16:54:54 GMT
Feels like DA2 all over again. Genuinely curious if there's going to be DLC at this point.
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Post by malgus on Jun 7, 2017 16:58:03 GMT
Feels like DA2 all over again. Genuinely curious if there's going to be DLC at this point. Well if you feel it that way, DA 2 got 2 dlc
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Post by QuizzyBunny on Jun 7, 2017 16:58:06 GMT
You know what, I hope EA will allow them to do a full expansion - it might not be sound economics, but if they make an amazing expansion it might help the brand recover what it lost to memes. I believe that if the team got the time and resources they could do great things, they just need guidance and a clearer vision of what they want to achieve.
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Post by malgus on Jun 7, 2017 17:01:22 GMT
You know what, I hope EA will allow them to do a full expansion - it might not be sound economics, but if they make an amazing expansion it might help the brand recover what it lost to memes. I believe that if the team got the time and resources they could do great things, they just need guidance and a clearer vision of what they want to achieve. Totally agree on that, for me, they should just improve the game with patches and once it is done. They take their time and they make an expansion about all the plot that are still not resolved, ryder's mother, the primus, and the quarian ark, all into one expansion instead of multiple dlc. That could be great.
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Post by dragontartare on Jun 7, 2017 17:03:47 GMT
I'm wondering how much we can believe this article, given that near the end it once again says this: Isn't Kotaku still the only place reporting this supposed news, with no sources cited for it?
But assuming for a moment that the rest of the article can be believed, here are some things I found interesting:
I had a hard time understanding why some of the animations were so funky on release, given that DAI had already been made on the same engine and didn't have those problems. I didn't realize that production of both games overlapped to the extent that the MEA team couldn't use all of DAI's resources.
Same with the quote above. I wonder if this is to blame for not having quicksaving and save-almost-anywhere like DAI does.
If true, these two quotes explain quite a bit.
Overall, the article makes it clear that MEA was fraught with problems from the start, and not all of it was Montreal's fault (again, assuming the article can be believed). Even though I don't think MEA is a great game, I have a lot of sympathy for the team, and I hope BW will learn some lessons from this and try again.
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Post by abaris on Jun 7, 2017 17:03:59 GMT
You know what, I hope EA will allow them to do a full expansion - it might not be sound economics, but if they make an amazing expansion it might help the brand recover what it lost to memes. I believe that if the team got the time and resources they could do great things, they just need guidance and a clearer vision of what they want to achieve. You know, I guess you're not the CEO of any shareholder company. Also not the financial officer, I suppose. You could/would stop right after "it might not be sound economics" otherwise.
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Post by Link"Guess"ski on Jun 7, 2017 17:04:18 GMT
Something tells me you might have some issues with Mac Walters. Gee, you think!? I'm obsessed with him! :rage: But to be fair, let me adjust my criticism here: It's better than nothing. While there may have been a better candidate somewhere, potentially not within BioWare to salvage the messy pre-production, I have to acknowledge that Mac Walters probably did turn this into something that was at least digestible and not an incoherent vision. However, I still question how they went from Gerard's "Council members sent out colonies to find a new galaxy as plan-B to if Shepard failed to stop the Reapers" into "Let's explore teh Andromeda galaxy with impossible technology in 2185!"I think Mac was a real double-edged sword when it came to turning the project around. Also, side-note, but since we now know what the truth behind Andromeda's E3-absence was (3 times!) be ready that if "Dylan" isn't shown playable as a real vertical slice of sorts or at least a trailer with a clear premise in 1 week (E3 time baby!) then BioWare's goin' down
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Post by Deleted on Jun 7, 2017 17:05:59 GMT
Are you kidding me? Andromeda has awesome areas with road, fun to drive vehicle, and great planetary story. The Nomad is better than the horse, but structurally, that's exactly how Inquisition worked. Zones with self-contained storylines and exploration. Again, still structurally indifferent than Inquisition, and I'd argue the quality to crap quest ratio still isn't all that great. Literally every BioWare game since Mass Effect has been fully voiced. How is this even a feature? Kinda? That's still exactly how it works in InquisitionIt's spelled crashed, and anecdotes aren't evidence. I've heard far more reports of serious bugs for Andromeda than I have for Inquisition. Still has nothing to do with structure, and no, on companions alone Inquisition has a more visually pleasing cast, but even the secondary and auto-generated characters look pretty universally better. Hell, before the patch, many people's eyes in Andromeda looked flat out disturbing. What? The romance system works exactly the same between these two games. That Andromeda conveniently had a romance that appealed specifically to you doesn't have any bearing on the formula. But once again, no, the romances in Inquisition were almost uniformly superior with more nuance (albeit slightly) and relationship hitches than those in Andromeda. Let me reiterate: you implied that Andromeda is less formulaic than Inquisition. You've yet to show how Andromeda's formula, no matter how well (or poorly as the case may be) it was executed, is significantly different than Inquisition. I vehemently disagree with your opinion of Andromeda, but regardless of your subjective assessment of the game, your objective understanding of it's formula is factually incorrect. Incorrect.
In Inquisition, the roads are NOT marked on the maps, and you cannot get to many areas either by horse or on foot. You get those Operations that lock away parts of many maps. In Andromeda pretty much everything is accessible on each planet. In Inquisition you have to go there and back to Skyhold to unlock areas. In Andromeda you do it on the planet itself via Vault.
in Inquisition you had to unlock a specific amounts of Power Points to proceed with the Main Quest. In Andromeda, the story progression happens naturally, and is not locked out behind a repetitive task. You don't even have to unlock the Vaults to progress through the story.
Inquisition has most of the quests related by a text message pinned to a tree. Pretty much every quest in Andromeda has an actual Questgiver you talk to.
The romances in Inquisiton are more locked out than in Andromeda, because the restrictions are only by gender, and in Inquisition, the locks are also by your species. So it is harder to create a protagonist that can romance someone you want to romance.
Seriously, good looking cast in Inquisition? Fat old one-eyed Iron Bull as an LI and the second LI a gut who is looks like an adding biker with a gigantic beard? Cullen is on the death door, and Solas stepped out of a nightmare rather than a maiden's dream. And all of them having permanently shiny pale, pale and paler faces and brows/eyelashes that are so terrible it's better not to put them on. And you can't continue the game if you added mods that made characters look less objectionable. ye gods.
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Post by abaris on Jun 7, 2017 17:10:22 GMT
Also, side-note, but since we now know what the truth behind Andromeda's E3-absence was (3 times!) be ready that if "Dylan" isn't shown playable as a real vertical slice of sorts or at least a trailer with a clear premise in 1 week (E3 time baby!) then BioWare's goin' down I think that's a bit of hyperbole. But there's certainly more to the delay into the fiscal year of 2018 than should meet the eye, if the company has their say. The delay happened after the Andromeda shitstorm broke. Could be mere coincidence, could be more to it. But I have to say, going by what little we know about that IP, there's a game I'm really not getting excited over the way they promoted it so far. What was it? Online experience? Couldn't care less about that.
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Post by dalinne on Jun 7, 2017 17:12:57 GMT
I thought in something more like: "Then everything changed when the Fire Nation attacked"
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Post by bizantura on Jun 7, 2017 17:13:11 GMT
Read the article and perceive it with a grain of salt, Kotaku isn't reliable. Nothing convinces me of much reality in this article. The animations could have been a number of reasons why it did not trigger properly and even deeply discussed on this forum, same goes for not triggering of music when it should have.
The character writing I don't like in this game but because they choose a specific direction I personally don't embrace. The game is a decent shooter but RPG? But this is personal preference and differs from person to person.
This game could not have a more botched start, especially for a story driven game. Many reviewers acted like sheeple copying one and another blabbering all about bad animations. Read one review and you read them all. Still don't like where this franchise is headed but haven't read a decent professional article referencing even a few of my gripes with this game.
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Post by QuizzyBunny on Jun 7, 2017 17:14:00 GMT
You know what, I hope EA will allow them to do a full expansion - it might not be sound economics, but if they make an amazing expansion it might help the brand recover what it lost to memes. I believe that if the team got the time and resources they could do great things, they just need guidance and a clearer vision of what they want to achieve. You know, I guess you're not the CEO of any shareholder company. Also not the financial officer, I suppose. You could/would stop right after "it might not be sound economics" otherwise. Pfff, everyone else here can be experts on making video games without even working with tech, but I have to be a CEO to have an opinion on economics? On a more serious note, I perhaps should have emphasized the might in the sentence - it might be bad economics if the brand is damaged beyond repair, however, should they make an expansion that is widely acclaimed by both critics and players it might renew faith in the franchise enough for a second attempt. If that one is successful it might (this time I'm emphasizing it!) in the long run be good economics. Experience tells me that companies are not prone to risk though, so it's mostly just a dream. I want Mass Effect to continue - I believe the game has been slammed unfairly hard, and I still think there is a lot of potential. I'm choosing to have faith that I won't be dissapointed.
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Post by decafhigh on Jun 7, 2017 17:14:36 GMT
Also, side-note, but since we now know what the truth behind Andromeda's E3-absence was (3 times!) be ready that if "Dylan" isn't shown playable as a real vertical slice of sorts or at least a trailer with a clear premise in 1 week (E3 time baby!) then BioWare's goin' down I think that's a bit of hyperbole. But there's certainly more to the delay into the fiscal year of 2018 than should meet the eye, if the company has their say. The delay happened after the Andromeda shitstorm broke. Could be mere coincidence, could be more to it. But I have to say, going by what little we know about that IP, there's a game I'm really not getting excited over the way they promoted it so far. What was it? Online experience? Couldn't care less about that. Everything else aside, I do think Dylan will make or break Bioware. EA wants a big Destiny/Halo style hit from BW. If Dylan can't live up to it BW may be saying hello to the likes of Westwood and Mythic.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 7, 2017 17:16:03 GMT
Take everything this guys says with a grain of salt...
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