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Post by SofNascimento on Jun 7, 2017 22:08:21 GMT
Well, If I wanted to say something mean I'd say that when you bring Mac Walters to save your project it's because you really fucked up.
I mean, the guy certainly has some talent, but maybe not in leadership.
Anyway, what a sad read this article was. Mass Effect didn't deserve this. Hopefully it will come back in a few years, done by people who know how to make a great video game.
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Post by vonuber on Jun 7, 2017 22:11:14 GMT
ME:A is a great game in the context of only 18 months development. However, given they worked on it for 5 years it is disappointing.
I can definitely see the elements hinted at in the article - a lot of generic filler for planets where you'd expect story, seriously below par polish for Bioware (even simple things like some cutscenes just abruptly stopping without even a fade to black) and hints of some really good stuff under the murk. The fact that combat and driving was set so early is really obvious, as they are by far the best gameplay elements.
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Post by abaris on Jun 7, 2017 22:14:27 GMT
ME:A is a great game in the context of only 18 months development. However, given they worked on it for 5 years it is disappointing. I can definitely see the elements hinted at in the article - a lot of generic filler for planets where you'd expect story, seriously below par polish for Bioware (even simple things like some cutscenes just abruptly stopping without even a fade to black) and hints of some really good stuff under the murk. The fact that combat and driving was set so early is really obvious, as they are by far the best gameplay elements. Which gives the article credit. It's kind of obvious.
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Post by AnDromedary on Jun 7, 2017 22:19:17 GMT
Great article. Honestly, if in month after release someone from Bioware would come out and spoke honestly about issues they had, I would have been way more understanding. They lacked leadership, really badly. Funny how Mac Walters seems to be the savior now since he often was perceived as a tormentor. Ol' Mac didn't do enough. I would hold him responsible along with his bosses. They blew it. It's not a bad game but no where was it ready for release. Whoever said it was a "go" is not a developer, a writer, a VA, or support person. It was a clown in a suit that convinced Flynn it's all good. Well, from what the article says though, Mac came in late and was probably one of the people who turned that mess around to something half way productive. I can imagine that if you come into it so late and are confronted by a pile of shambles left over by you predecessor, it's not easy to get at least something out of it. As an author, I don't like Mac either but as a manager, I'd say it's tough to judge him based on the info we have. Under the circumstances, he might have done a pretty good job.
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Cyan_Griffonclaw
N5
Uncle Cyan
Dang it.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Shattered Steel, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
Origin: griffonclaw39
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Post by Cyan_Griffonclaw on Jun 7, 2017 22:31:01 GMT
Ol' Mac didn't do enough. I would hold him responsible along with his bosses. They blew it. It's not a bad game but no where was it ready for release. Whoever said it was a "go" is not a developer, a writer, a VA, or support person. It was a clown in a suit that convinced Flynn it's all good. Well, from what the article says though, Mac came in late and was probably one of the people who turned that mess around to something half way productive. I can imagine that if you come into it so late and are confronted by a pile of shambles left over by you predecessor, it's not easy to get at least something out of it. As an author, I don't like Mac either but as a manager, I'd say it's tough to judge him based on the info we have. Under the circumstances, he might have done a pretty good ob. You're right but it doesn't excuse the end result. It's probably why Mac is still there. If I were an investor, I'd want a head on a platter or better yet, invest my money elsewhere like CDPR. People quit in staggering numbers and there has to be a toxic reason that this beloved franchise was released as it was. If it was out of greed by EA or hubris by BioWare, neither is a good reason for the fan base.
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Post by abaris on Jun 7, 2017 22:35:55 GMT
If it was out of greed by EA or hubris by BioWare, neither is a good reason for the fan base. Wether you call it greed or Hubris, it was released because of the end of the fiscal year. That's the simple truth of it.
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rpgmaster
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Post by rpgmaster on Jun 7, 2017 22:36:29 GMT
It's staggering how they completely misconstrued the poll result of "people wanted a game set after ME3" as if it was some arbitrary date that mattered and not the context of the story/universe.
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Post by abaris on Jun 7, 2017 22:45:59 GMT
It's staggering how they completely misconstrued the poll result of "people wanted a game set after ME3" as if it was some arbitrary date that mattered and not the context of the story/universe. Well, the ending(s) of ME3 kind of painted them into a corner. Anything but an entirely new approach would have left them with a lot of explaining to do. Probably with an impossible amount. I honestly don't see what people could have expected, other than a fresh start. Which really isn't the weakness of this game. The premisse is OK. What they made of it is up for debate.
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Cyan_Griffonclaw
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Uncle Cyan
Dang it.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Shattered Steel, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
Origin: griffonclaw39
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Post by Cyan_Griffonclaw on Jun 7, 2017 22:46:18 GMT
If it was out of greed by EA or hubris by BioWare, neither is a good reason for the fan base. Wether you call it greed or Hubris, it was released because of the end of the fiscal year. That's the simple truth of it. It's an excuse. End of fiscal year and...? It's not like taxes and royalties or even investor expectations should dictate when ART is released. There are expectations but selling a product that will inevitably reduce the IP value is counterproductive and f***ing irresponsible. If they can't meet deadlines then fire the bosses and the dead weight and reschedule the release. You know what... if the end of the fiscal year is all that important then why even schedule the release then? So I stand corrected: it's either hubris, greed and/or incompetence. That release date should be a goal and afterwards you reasses why the deadline was missed. Sorry Abaris, they blew it and holding the end of the fiscal year is not an excuse for EA.
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Fen'Harel Faceman
N7
GIF Addict
Workin' so hard, to make it easy.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Fen'Harel Faceman on Jun 7, 2017 22:49:39 GMT
Unlike the "OMFG MASS EFFECT IS DEAD GUISE!!!1" article Loltaku put out earlier, this one actually makes sense to read. Of course though, sources go unnamed and I doubt any other publication will corroborate the information therein because apparently Schreier has sources nobody else does (riiight), just like his earlier article. It definitely puts the missing pieces together and makes some sense as to why the game was launched in the condition that is was, but Loltaku's continuous "the game was nothing but a disappointment" is just blatantly untrue. I will take this one, once again, with a huge grain of... People individually can like the game or not, I'm sure you can find people that liked the Sonic game too. Hell, this is the internet. You can find whole groups of people that like anything. Literally anything. Please don't make me post examples for you. That said, the collective reviews and responses for MEA are, at best, Lukewarm. You individually liking the game doesn't make that untrue. It is ironic, however, that when ME3 came out and was getting high review scores the BSN and interwebs seemed to generally come to some consensus that the gaming review industry was full of shit. But now that some people agree with them, they're the final word. Sorta the same thing happened when Inquisition came out. The generally positive scores were constantly derided on the BSN by anyone who didn't like the game. That's pretty much why I have a hard time taking any of this seriously and mainly rely on my own experience. Things are just too fickle and political out there in the internetsphere.
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Post by mattjamho on Jun 7, 2017 22:50:47 GMT
Hopefully Bioware will take what they've learned from this mess and develop their next games more wisely.
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Post by abaris on Jun 7, 2017 22:52:10 GMT
It's an excuse. End of fiscal year and...? It's not like taxes and royalties or even investor expectations should dictate when ART is released. The old argument of games being art. It doesn't get any more validity by repetition. Well, maybe in some fashion, games are art. But at face value, games are an investment. An ordinary product that needs to be sold at a certain point in time. Just like a new brand of toilet paper. This isn't some labor of love some people are doing. This is stone cold shareholder business, with a detailed business plan at the foundations. Certain expectations for a return on investment at a certain point in time.
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LordGunSmith90
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Post by LordGunSmith90 on Jun 7, 2017 22:52:56 GMT
This article was a very interesting read, thanks.
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Cyan_Griffonclaw
N5
Uncle Cyan
Dang it.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Shattered Steel, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
Origin: griffonclaw39
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Post by Cyan_Griffonclaw on Jun 7, 2017 23:01:51 GMT
Hopefully Bioware will take what they've learned from this mess and develop their next games more wisely. I don't know anymore. They're patching romances instead making fixes to quests and all the bugs that aren't resolved by the community (EA: Resolved) and their lack of communication is a big problem. I'm angry because all the naysayers are all saying, "I told you so." Aw man... Well there is always Battltech and Cyberpunk 2077. Neither gets me in the pantalones like Mass Effect or Dragon Age but it's clear to me that passion and soul is gone and replaced with a cover-your-ass mentality. And they're doing a poor job on that end as well...
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Post by cypherj on Jun 7, 2017 23:06:21 GMT
"When the mock reviews came in for Mass Effect: Andromeda, BioWare’s leads were relieved—the Metacritic was expected to be in the low-to-mid-80s, according to two sources. Although Andromeda’s developers knew the game wasn’t perfect, they were fine with a score like that."
I'm shocked the focus groups came back with a score that high for the original version of the game. If someone would have had a tough conversation with them back then perhaps things would have been different.
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Uncle Cyan
Dang it.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Shattered Steel, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
Origin: griffonclaw39
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Post by Cyan_Griffonclaw on Jun 7, 2017 23:08:57 GMT
It's an excuse. End of fiscal year and...? It's not like taxes and royalties or even investor expectations should dictate when ART is released. The old argument of games being art. It doesn't get any more validity by repetition. Well, maybe in some fashion, games are art. But at face value, games are an investment. An ordinary product that needs to be sold at a certain point in time. Just like a new brand of toilet paper. This isn't some labor of love some people are doing. This is stone cold shareholder business, with a detailed business plan at the foundations. Certain expectations for a return on investment at a certain point in time. I understand that but any product that requires creativity on the level that video games are made now... it's art. I fully agree with you that deadlines should be honored, but when the product and the reputation of a company is at stake, then you adjust. If you don't, then you should expect backlash for releasing a product that broken. If it was a car, it would be a lemon, but since it's art we don't have that option. So Abaris, you're saying that the game was justified to be released in the state it was in?
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Post by decafhigh on Jun 7, 2017 23:14:58 GMT
People individually can like the game or not, I'm sure you can find people that liked the Sonic game too. Hell, this is the internet. You can find whole groups of people that like anything. Literally anything. Please don't make me post examples for you. That said, the collective reviews and responses for MEA are, at best, Lukewarm. You individually liking the game doesn't make that untrue. It is ironic, however, that when ME3 came out and was getting high review scores the BSN and interwebs seemed to generally come to some consensus that the gaming review industry was full of shit. But now that some people agree with them, they're the final word. Sorta the same thing happened when Inquisition came out. The generally positive scores were constantly derided on the BSN by anyone who didn't like the game. That's pretty much why I have a hard time taking any of this seriously and mainly rely on my own experience. Things are just too fickle and political out there in the internetsphere. Agreed. I wasn't paying much attention around the end of ME3 aside from watching youtube jokes about the endings. I had more or less given up on BW after ME2, a game I hated. That's kinda the point I was making though, even though I hated ME2 I could still recognize the game got praise from literally all the gaming corners of the internet which told me BW games weren't for me any longer. Me hating ME2 didn't make all the praise wrong.
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Post by abaris on Jun 7, 2017 23:18:12 GMT
So Abaris, you're saying that the game was justified to be released in the state it was in? It doesn't matter what I believe. I just know the inner workings of large companies. So I tell it as it is. To say, something like that is supposed to be art, isn't a realistic but a romantic approach. They invested time and money, bonusses and shareholder expectations were tied to this being released in a certain fiscal year. So the art argument never was something to be considered. Personally I support Indie companies by kickstarting games that interest me. Such as Larian or Obsidian. AAA titles have lost any credit as far as art is concerned. I had low expectations for this game. I'm not disappointed. At least not in a major way. It turned out to be an OK game. Had it been released a few months later, there would have been less glitches and bugs. But the inherent weaknesses would still be there. I never look at bugs and glitches, since any company will patch them over time. Content is a different matter entirely. And that's something a later release date would not have fixed.
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guanxi
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age Inquistion
PSN: guanxi
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Post by guanxi on Jun 7, 2017 23:19:34 GMT
Sounds like Montreal were absolutely dying on their asses and Edmonton had practically no choice but to ASSUME DIRECT CONTROL of the project with less than 18 months remaining to salvage it to a halfway shippable state. I'm glad Montreal were shit-canned because they've practically killed Mass Effect with their negligence. It seems the downsizing would have happened regardless of sales or critical reception because Montreal simply cannot be trusted with another project on this scale again.
Mac Walters deserves a world of credit under the circumstances for taking responsibility when he did and bringing ME:A back from the brink of disaster regardless of what you may think of it. The man's a hero.
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Uncle Cyan
Dang it.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Shattered Steel, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Cyan_Griffonclaw on Jun 7, 2017 23:22:10 GMT
Well, If I wanted to say something mean I'd say that when you bring Mac Walters to save your project it's because you really fucked up. I mean, the guy certainly has some talent, but maybe not in leadership. Anyway, what a sad read this article was. Mass Effect didn't deserve this. Hopefully it will come back in a few years, done by people who know how to make a great video game. I like Mac's writing. Yeah. Call me simpleton. However, I am impressed what he got done if the article is correct. I'm just freaking amazed how bad the situation. EA's HR and PR didn't help him and marketing is POS.
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Cyan_Griffonclaw
N5
Uncle Cyan
Dang it.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Shattered Steel, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
Origin: griffonclaw39
Posts: 2,516 Likes: 2,607
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Post by Cyan_Griffonclaw on Jun 7, 2017 23:25:17 GMT
So Abaris, you're saying that the game was justified to be released in the state it was in? It doesn't matter what I believe. I just know the inner workings of large companies. So I tell it as it is. To say, something like that is supposed to be art, isn't a realistic but a romantic approach. They invested time and money, bonusses and shareholder expectations were tied to this being released in a certain fiscal year. So the art argument never was something to be considered. Personally I support Indie companies by kickstarting games that interest me. Such as Larian or Obsidian. AAA titles have lost any credit as far as art is concerned. I had low expectations for this game. I'm not disappointed. At least not in a major way. It turned out to be an OK game. Had it been released a few months later, there would have been less glitches and bugs. But the inherent weaknesses would still be there. I never look at bugs and glitches, since any company will patch them over time. Content is a different matter entirely. And that's something a later release date would not have fixed. Okay. Thank you. I appreciate your response and your honesty. I understand what you're saying. Well, they blew it. A good game that missed all of its potential because of wasted resources and payroll.
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obatalaryder
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by obatalaryder on Jun 7, 2017 23:29:36 GMT
Fuck Kotaku.
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N5
Uncle Cyan
Dang it.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Shattered Steel, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
Origin: griffonclaw39
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Post by Cyan_Griffonclaw on Jun 7, 2017 23:32:44 GMT
Damn right. Anonymous sources. Yo... I have anonymous sources too.
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FeralEwok
N3
Yub Nub
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Post by FeralEwok on Jun 7, 2017 23:33:08 GMT
Interesting read. I'm sure there was still other things at play that sources didn't want or couldn't discuss that affected the development. I was surprised to see no one at the top from EA came in at the end and looked at the final product and delayed it. I can't imagine a justification for releasing the game in the state it was in...just a few months and a patch or two later and it already had significant improvements.
All that being said, it sounds like it was in developmental hell and I'm honestly surprised it turned out as decent as it did. I just hope it's a valuable lesson learned and that they don't give up on the franchise or more specifically Andromeda/Ryder.
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Twitter Guru
ღ N-Special
More coffee...? More coffee.
Staff Mini-Profile Theme: Hrungr
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Origin: Hrungr
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Post by Hrungr on Jun 7, 2017 23:35:31 GMT
Extra Credits recently posted a relevant video. Worth watching if you haven't seen it yet...
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