Unpopular opinions

I have it a couple of times where she's just stood down instantly... right after the autodialogue ends.  How do you shoot her when that happens?

I'm quite sure the conversation never got to the point of the interrupt appearing before she backed down.  Shepard's score on the chart would have been +6 (fully loyal romance, saved council, Thane and Kirrahe, nice to Ashley on Mars, every visit and gave her Tennyson.  Unfortunately, the save I have of that playthrough doesn't have one just before Priority: Citadel II, so I'd have to replay too much to run it again to check... but I'm pretty sure I had absolutely no chance to shoot her.  I'll replay that Shepard from the save I have closest to that point (sometime before Sur'kesh) and get back to you.

Almost as soon as you get there, before any dialogue is spoken, there's a paragon interupt to put up the squad's weapons and not point them at the VS.  It's still there even if you do everything you said.

Well they certainly put more thought into them in the first game than the subsequent titles, or specifically Chris L'Etoile put more thought into them. Even as simple "interesting points" to the galaxy, those aliens did diversify the setting compared to 99% of all other forms of science fiction media out there.

It just screams "lazy writing" to me that BioWare opted to ditch any further exposition and development on these aliens in favor of more humans with daddy issues.

BioWare should have never made it possible to kill off an entire species in the first place, it just limits further possibilities with said race when they just throw in such choices as a shallow example of "player agency" but I digress. The Rachni, Elcor, and Hanar had far more potential to them and the setting in general than more human characters. Cortez and Traynor had development granted, but they weren't exactly something wholly unique to the setting; unless you want to count 'homosexuality' as some special trait.

Further exploration of the Hanar's unique culture of "extreme politeness" or their dualistic nature with their face names and soul names, or the Elcor and their incredible strength (arguably more than even the Krogan) and the fact that they carry tank cannons on their backs into battle certainly holds more appeal than some more human characters.



I personally find the assumption that we humans are incapable of understanding and/or identifying with non-human elements to be a little demeaning of our collective intelligence. Nothing against you specifically, but the notion that we balk at the face of the unknown flies in the face of scientific discovery and our adaptability as a species. For example, I don't know all the finer points of quantum mechanics, but that doesn't mean that I could never learn anything about the subject.

Is it easier to identify with something exactly like us? Yes of course, but is it impossible to understand those things foreign to us? No, it just takes a little more effort on our part to see past our comfort zone. If BioWare took the time to explain that species of alien that eat their own dead to incorporate their traits into themselves more than: "Ew! Cannibals!" then you most certainly see players being able to reason with said aliens. That's the thing though, its a matter of most writers wanting to take easy (see lazy) way out and not bother with those elements. 

In regards to the Geth and EDI, it wasn't the fact that they became more like us that made me question the Catalyst's logic, it was the fact that they were capable of working along side organics in spite of their differences; though that is more of a ME 2 viewpoint. To me, the 'humanization' of those two only served to make the ending more disappointing, since in a way the Catalyst is right, we can't work with synthetics unless they give up their unique traits and become just like us.

Kind of narrowing down the definition of sci fi. Considering how common the ancient technology theme is in a lot of sci fi stuff.

I've tolerated the human drama, but what originally drew me to Mass Effect and Dragon age was the non-human elements. Rachni, Elcor and Hanar, or Werewolves, Sylvans and Awakened, etc. things like that piqued my interest and I want to see those elements, and ones like them explored more. 

The reason I tend to get frustrated, is that the world that I originally fell in love with is systematically being destroyed to make more room for said human drama.

That's fair. We all like different elements of the series... I definitely wouldn't have complained if they did something more with the Rachni. And they apparently planned a mission to Kahje once (where either Thane or Kolyat joins us). Count that as another loss from the rushed schedule.

Rachni wouldn't have added anything interesting in the long run. Because they would just be an organic version of Geth. Hive minded group that is smarter in larger amounts and communicates in a way that we don't fully understand.  Elcor are slow moving to the point they are interesting to talk to but any action with them would be pointless.  Hanar again based on the basis of the race would be something you could talk to. But couldn't actually do anything.  The fact that they rely heavily on automation defenses and recruit Drell to act as their arms. So to speak should kind of give away the limitations with those races.

Considering this is a video game and the depiction of homosexual people in video games not all that common particularly at the time the game was created does count in that context as special traits.  I have yet to see a CoD or Battlefield game were at the last level you turn to your fellow male (if you are a guy) or fellow female (if you are a girl) squad mate and kiss them passionately and talk about how they will get thought the impending fight and live happily ever after together.  Rather important when you consider that Mass Effect was one of the first large almost AAA game to openly depict homosexuality and treat it as if they are just normal things and not playing to a heavy stereotype of them.


You seem to mistake a lot of what I said or you didn't understand it. The growth and accumulation of knowledge in the case of quantum physics isn't anything remotely close to dealing with another living breathing creature.  You hear all the time stories of people who own animals like tigers or Lynx or chimps that people give human qualities to based on their actions.  Ignoring that they are not people they are animals with animal instincts that then turn around and rip their face off or kill them and eat them.  Hell among our own people we run into this problem. Did you know there are many places still in the world where homosexuality is not only an offense punishable by prison but also by death. That women have their clitoris removed specifically so they won't enjoy sex to much and to ensure they won't cheat on their husbands.

Race, religion, politics, place of birth, wealth are all things that people continue and will continue to use to divide our own race up into little groups.

Then to take an entire alien race that would have developed completely independent with all we know and all we can conceive when it comes to social structure and behavior. It would be impossible for people to fully grasp unless they made them human like in terms of social structure and behavior.  The cannibalizing the dead is only a small example. But if they also greeted each other by ramming their appendages up each others orifice and gave birth to a dozen babies and had a big ceremony were they eat every other baby alive. Even if they were set up much like the Asari were as seen as the smartest and least aggressive race no one would be able to relate to them due to their completely inhuman actions.  Because every interaction everyone would be thinking the same thing. This creature at an infant alive and that idea is the polar opposite of acceptable to us.

And I'm not being extreme just for the sake of it. Any race developing on a completely different planet would never develop exactly like us and they would be so foreign to use that it would take centuries to get use to them.  Let along the short time in the game universe and the even shorter time we have in the game.


No the Reapers represent a threat to organic and synthetic life as both groups get thrown in the blender when they harvest. Now if the Reapers came riding in on a slogan of kill all organics because synthetics rule the galaxy now and forever. And EDI and the Geth rebelled against that to help organics fight back. Similar to Paarthurnax did in the Elder Scrolls series. You know when Dragons ruled by Alduin ruled all of Skyrim. Nords rose up to fight against their oppressive rules and were effortlessly beaten back. Till Paarthurnax betrayed Alduin who saw him like a second in command and taught mankind the Thu'um allowing them to fight back against the Dragons and over coming them. Then there might have been something to back up the claims.

But beyond that it is the relateable qualities of EDI and Geth which are very human like that endears them to people thus makes people see that the catalyst is wrong about conflict and such between organic and synthetic. Because they are portrayed to be just like us.

A couple things about those aliens, though I don't want to bog down my entire post with bullet points about them:

• The Rachni are actually very different from the Geth in terms of organization and social structure. They have a hive mentality, but they aren't a hive mind/collective conciseness like the Geth are, as evidenced by the fact that even the individual and insane Rachni were able to escape confinement, develop proto-colonies, and engage in pseudo guerrilla warfare with an Alliance outpost, all the while outside of any direction via the Queen. 

• The Elcor move slowly, but what the game constantly fails to realize is that they are from a planet with five times the gravity of at least 90% of the galactic population. They wouldn't really have to move quickly in order to leap twenty feet into the air, or punch through a bulkhead. Just look at astronauts on the moon skipping around in normally bulky outfits and multiply that by five. They're more akin to the prowess of an elephant than the sloth that the games tend to depict them as. 

• And the Hanar are actually very capable of close quarters combat; resident mercenary badass Zaeed was almost choked to death by one remember? Also, the Drell are trained as assassins and bodyguards, but who do you think is the one that does the training? More than likely, the Hanar like to maintain the perceived notion of utter helplessness to the rest of the galaxy. Let everyone assume that they are nothing more than "big stupid jellyfish", the best way to defeat an opponent is to have them underestimate you after all. 

Now, aside from the fact that their non-humanoid appearances would require more work in the animation department, I still don't see why they were all ditched when Cortez and Traynor were arguably just talking heads themselves, and showcased very little in the way of movement. We get what, two scenes where they aren't just standing or sitting in the same spot talking to the player? We could have very easily had a Hanar or Elcor in a similar role and gotten a lot more exposition about their species and culture, further diversifying the setting, instead of another set of human characters, who aside from the whole homosexuality angle, had nothing more to add to the setting that all the other human characters hadn't already done. 

Yeah, aspects of sexuality hadn't been really touched on before, but the exploration of non-human elements has seen even less narrative spotlight. Plus, this is a setting that actually has aliens in it, unlike your Call of Dutys and Battlefields. Why not add some more focus on the things that actually distinguish the game and give it that 'science fiction' moniker?



The presentation and understanding of an 'alien' species is not really that hard if time is taken to explain it though. The problem with it most of the time, just like listening to a lecture on quantum mechanics, is people's eyes tend to glaze over and they ignore what is being said and maintain the notion that "Yeah, that stuff''s weird. Let's go back to talking about who's dating who now." An alien's culture or even an aspect of their biology that flies in the face of preconceived human norms, wouldn't automatically set off your audience if it was approached with a modicum of logic and reasoning. A perfect example of this in a BioWare game was the Awakened from Dragon Age.

When talking to the Messenger about the impending attack on the city, the player could chose to look past the horrific way that leads to the creation of a Darkspawn, as well as the process involved in Awakening and talk to this individual despite the 'non-human' nature of it's origin. You didn't automatically have to gnash your teeth together and scream "Unclean!" while beating it to death with a stick; the setting was bigger then our notions of how things should be. 


As to EDI and the Geth, I found them more interesting as characters before they became Pinocchio bots. For the briefest of moments in ME 2 I was thrilled with the depiction of the Geth; here was a synthetic intelligence that didn't want to become just like us while at the same time, didn't want to "KILL ALL HUMANS."; it was a nice break from the mould that AI is showcased as in 99% of all other media. Unfortunately, ME 3 came around and we find out that no, the Geth actually do just want to be 'real boys'. 

Check the rules & expectations again. Intent and context matter. You mean the comparison to be unflattering. I don't particularly care, I don't watch the show and you could compare me to a strawberry, if you mean it to be derogatory, we have a problem. In another thread, you called me scarecrow, more ambiguous. I'll make you a deal though. Lose the attitude and maybe we can go back to something resembling a civil discussion. I doubt we'll agree any more, and I still won't repeat the same things over and over. But at least it doesn't have to get any nastier. As a show of good faith, I'll respond to the rest of your post as if it were the first time I was replying to you.

It does not necessarily have to be a great betrayal. Miranda worked at Cerberus for 20 years but she undoubtedly started at the botttom and worked her way up- she didn't join as a cell leader. So in the early years she was in the dark as much as anybody. Once she moved up she still likely only knew what her own cell was up to. Finally by the time she got to the "seeing TIM personally" level she knew more, but going by the justifications she gives Shepard she was ok with what she knew. It also doesn't make sense for TIM, paranoid as he is to allow someone to be in his presence that isn't fully commited and agreeing with the cause.

Now, as I mentioned before, in all the known Cerberus operations prior to ME3, Cerberus personnel were never flippantly treated as expendable. They were careless with civilians and test subjects but never their own people. For TIM to just lie and place the Normandy in danger like that, seemingly on a whim is unprecedented. Now you can also make the case that Shepard subtly sways Miranda away from casually acccepting TIM's methods and even in cases where she doesn't resign at the Collector base, her questioning of Cerberus motives eventually prompts her to leave. Or in the case where she doesn't quit in ME2 you could say that developments like the huskified troopers is what pushed her over the edge. The mooks we fight in ME3 weren't made in a day. Like the Gellix scientists, she could notice one day that Cerberus was getting too shady, even for her and bail. It's not huge, it's not even onscreen, but it is significant.

I don't disagree with your simple reason- the game does. Miranda clearly talks about the good Cerberus does and that she enjoys working for them. She tells Shepard he may have misjudged Cerberus and to give it another chance. Someone who's only in it for themselves would not do so. She is a true believe in the cause and definitely in the means that Cerberus provides. At least until it all goes to hell.

1. No but like I said up top, all she would know initially would be her own cell. And cells would work very differently, depending on the type. Cerberus has military, scientific, political cells. If she was in a scientific cell (which Lazarus certainly was), at best she'd hear about some moral dubiousness in an experiment or something, which at the time were not on the level of Sanctuary.

2. Yes, I believe this is what they mean by plausible deniability. If governments can do it, so can Cerberus. As far as Miranda is concerned since she wasn't running the projects, if she did have any knowledge of them, she may well have been told that the kids were volunteers or strays that would not come to any other useful purpose, but at least here they would be cared for. And the extent of David's involvement in Overlord would not likely be publicized to any but TIM himself. We don't hear Miranda's thoughts on Overlord unfortunately but she is disgusted, or at the very least unsettled if you take her to Pragia.

3. "Second in command" is hardly a term of endearment (as least not as far as I know) and there was no joking in that exchange. Also, though it is romance specific, Miranda saying she's the 2IC has nothing to do with the romance itself. As it's independent, it doesn't make sense to assume it only occurs if romanced- Miranda only gets promoted if she bangs Shepard? Doesn't quite work, does it? It's different with Garrus and the examples you state- they're all about the romance. I haven't done a Garrus romance, but from what I hear he's reluctant at first and it takes a little doing to get him out of his shell. So you could make the case that he may very well be all about the human ladies but never know it unless someone coaxes it out of him. But the more important point is romance specific actualization is one thing, something that's independent of said romance can be considered to have developed independently as well.

And then what, attempt to drag a senseless body (bodies are heavy when not animated) into a shuttle while the place is falling around them? And all that to... what keep him unconscious in a cramped shuttle for days? Or restrain him with what? This was the expedient solution. And keeping him alive was not necessary. She either had proof of his treachery or deduced it easily enough. Assuming we're not dealing with a zealot here, the traitor is the one that's not Shepard, not herself, not Jacob (because she knows him) and not dead. There's nothing to be gained by taking Wilson prisoner, especially when he'll be executed later anyway.

This doesn't pose any problem for me. I never said Miranda was a goody two shoes. But being ruthless and expedient is not the same as condoning the space Nazis of ME3.

She should be at Cronos because she gave two thirds of her life to a organization that turned into space Nazis. She needs closure on where it went wrong and whether she should've seen it/done more to prevent it. If Cerberus went this bad, and her father is this bad, does this mean she's this bad as well, or will eventually be this bad? Or is there some good that came of her work? She deserves the right to confront TIM over these questions. And from the general perspective, she has plenty of knowledge to impart on Cronos station, its personnel, its defenses and more background on what we should expect. Yes, EDI can provide a lot of the same technical details, but Miranda can provide more of a personal edge. Like I said going to Cronos without Miranda is like going to face the Emperor without Darth Vader. You don't need Vader to realize the Emperor's a dick, but since Vader exists, his absence would be a glaring oversight of incredible proportions.

Jacob is just a soldier, and like I said before, a soldier with reservations isn't likely to say more than "hah I knew it." How much does he talk about Cerberus at Gellix? Also, he's never been to Cronos, would have zero intel, nor a way to get some. If he tried, he'd get fried in a vent.

Shepard doesn't call her second in command, she does. Like I said, it's unlikely to be a nickname of any kind given the context. I don't see a reasonable way to take that comment at anything but face value and at face value it's a fact that's independent of the romance.