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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Nov 2, 2016 15:05:53 GMT
So you don't place her on any pedestal but my interpretation of the character's motivation is wrong. Contradiction much? That is you placing her on a pedestal and declaring any other possible set ups are wrong. Tell me what grand differences is there between control chip and what ever it is that TIM did to make his solider in ME3? Because both involve technological implants that strip them of their ability to make their own choices. And instead are compelled to obey TIM. Most of them are kidnapped/recruited falsely into his experiments. Nothing TIM does is out of the ordinary for what he is shown to do in ME2. Save for him being a lot more directly confrontational then before. And yet for some reason with your set up why Miranda left is nothing but ???? for your statement. There is no contradiction. Her motivations in the game are clear. She is loyal to and believes in Cerberus until Mass Effect 3. This is directly stated. You are not arguing against me, you are arguing against the game. And so, you are wrong. There are no other "possible setups" within this particular question. The difference is the control chip wouldn't have turned Shepard into a husk, or half-husk or whatever the troopers are. It would've been a failsafe only, not robbing Shepard of his will other than in the philosophical sense of being unable to choose otherwise and it wasn't Reaper tech, something that's been shown to backfire 100% of the time. But you already know this. No I'm arguing against you because the game can be interpreted many ways and the way you are saying is your personal interpretation. And this seems to be a reoccurring thing with you. You over simplify the complexity of motivation and reasoning. Particularly when you include the fact the key reason she went to Cerberus was because they had the resources to protect her and Oriana from her Father. You keep desperately trying to forget about her sister and the effect she has on Miranda's choices. Up to the fact that prevent her sister from falling into the hands of her Father again is her loyalty mission. Not wiping out data containing key information about Cerberus. Not stopping an assassination plot against TIM. Purely focused on her sister. This adds that complexity to her character that you are trying desperately to wipe out to maintain the validity of your stance. With that in mind my entire set up is 100% valid interpretation. My set up also gives an explanation to why she would quit. While yours has no explanations only that she quit. No control chip would have clearly prevented Shepard from being able to exercise his own will if TIM or Miranda didn't like what he was planning. In battle Shepard would still be capable of making his own tactical decisions but if Miranda told him to jump then he would be in the air as soon as the command left her lips. This is exactly how the Cerbrus troops in ME 3 behave only they got a boost to their capabilities though the integration of Reaper technology. Increased strength, durability, biotic capabilities, etc. This is yet another flaw in your very rigid interpretation of Miranda. Because everything she knows about Cerberus but still supports and everything she was willing to do herself are the exact same things that Cerberus does to their troopers in Me 3.
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Post by Iakus on Nov 2, 2016 15:51:58 GMT
From posts that I've read, James was put in for the new player In part. He's also there to guarantee a "pure soldier" character will be available (As Ash can be dead). Just as EDI is the guaranteed pure tech character and Liara is the pure biotic.
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Post by CrutchCricket on Nov 2, 2016 17:23:41 GMT
No I'm arguing against you because the game can be interpreted many ways and the way you are saying is your personal interpretation. And this seems to be a reoccurring thing with you. You over simplify the complexity of motivation and reasoning. Particularly when you include the fact the key reason she went to Cerberus was because they had the resources to protect her and Oriana from her Father. You keep desperately trying to forget about her sister and the effect she has on Miranda's choices. Up to the fact that prevent her sister from falling into the hands of her Father again is her loyalty mission. Not wiping out data containing key information about Cerberus. Not stopping an assassination plot against TIM. Purely focused on her sister. This adds that complexity to her character that you are trying desperately to wipe out to maintain the validity of your stance. With that in mind my entire set up is 100% valid interpretation. My set up also gives an explanation to why she would quit. While yours has no explanations only that she quit. No control chip would have clearly prevented Shepard from being able to exercise his own will if TIM or Miranda didn't like what he was planning. In battle Shepard would still be capable of making his own tactical decisions but if Miranda told him to jump then he would be in the air as soon as the command left her lips. This is exactly how the Cerbrus troops in ME 3 behave only they got a boost to their capabilities though the integration of Reaper technology. Increased strength, durability, biotic capabilities, etc. This is yet another flaw in your very rigid interpretation of Miranda. Because everything she knows about Cerberus but still supports and everything she was willing to do herself are the exact same things that Cerberus does to their troopers in Me 3. No, what I'm saying is what the game shows. You interpret she has no loyalty to Cerberus or more specifically, their ideals, contrary to what is outright said in the games. You can't just say whatever you want contrary to plain evidence, claim "interpretation" and leave it at that. You are in direct contradiction to what is shown in the games, therefore you are wrong. Her reason for going to Cerberus is irrelevant, or rather outside the scope of this discussion. Oriana is why she initially went to Cerberus, it's not the primary reason she stayed for twenty years. There is no contesting this. And my limit of repetition has been reached. I will not address this point again. Your so-called "interpretation" doesn't account for Miranda's departure any more than the games themselves do. In fact, your view is more nonsensical. Oriana is relocated with Cerberus resources. There is no change in her status in that respect after the loyalty mission. So if Miranda quit now, it'd be the same as quitting five, ten or fifteen years ago, Cerberus could still turn her over to Lawson as easily then as now. You have no basis for what the control chip may have done as it is never seen. And given TIM's parameters for Lazarus that Shepard be brought back exactly as he was pretty clearly indicates having a zombie on remote control is not what he had in mind. Shepard isn't valuable for his combat skills (exceptional though they may be) he's valuable for his leadership and ability to inspire loyalty, things a Cerberus trooper will never have. So it's downright ludicrous to think the control chip would turn Shepard into an assault trooper as this is directly contrary to the purpose behind bringing him back. This is in addition to the laughable notion that a simple failsafe (probably a bomb) planted in a test subject's skull is the same as using tech from mecha Cthulu to turn your own people into inhuman abominations. A supposedly pro-human group that actively strips the humanity from their troops is definitely not something Miranda would be a part of.
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Post by Vortex13 on Nov 2, 2016 17:34:09 GMT
In terms of writer's pet accusations that the community in general throws around, I would ascribe to the notion that it is not Liara who gets the award for most obvious writer's pet in-game, but rather Cerberus. The sheer amount of spotlight this organization gets in-game, as well in tie in novels and comics far outweighs any preference given to a particular Asari.
Now, while I wouldn't go so far as to say that Cerberus was being elevated to the same level of Matt Ward's Ultramarines or Grey Knights from WH40K, I will say that Mac Walter's showcasing of Cerberus being involved in almost every event that goes on the trilogy was pretty dang close.
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Post by CrutchCricket on Nov 2, 2016 17:54:12 GMT
In terms of writer's pet accusations that the community in general throws around, I would ascribe to the notion that it is not Liara who gets the award for most obvious writer's pet in-game, but rather Cerberus. The sheer amount of spotlight this organization gets in-game, as well in tie in novels and comics far outweighs any preference given to a particular Asari. Now, while I wouldn't go so far as to say that Cerberus was being elevated to the same level of Matt Ward's Ultramarines or Grey Knights from WH40K, I will say that Mac Walter's showcasing of Cerberus being involved in almost every event that goes on the trilogy was pretty dang close. Interesting thought. Can a villain/antagonist be a writer's pet? I don't know the examples you mention, but usually when a villain is overly liked, they're made sympathetic, or get retconned as anti-heroes and they were doing it for the good all along. But Cerberus is ME3 is made so dumb and for the evulz, that this doesn't seem to apply.
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Post by Vortex13 on Nov 2, 2016 18:21:40 GMT
In terms of writer's pet accusations that the community in general throws around, I would ascribe to the notion that it is not Liara who gets the award for most obvious writer's pet in-game, but rather Cerberus. The sheer amount of spotlight this organization gets in-game, as well in tie in novels and comics far outweighs any preference given to a particular Asari. Now, while I wouldn't go so far as to say that Cerberus was being elevated to the same level of Matt Ward's Ultramarines or Grey Knights from WH40K, I will say that Mac Walter's showcasing of Cerberus being involved in almost every event that goes on the trilogy was pretty dang close. Interesting thought. Can a villain/antagonist be a writer's pet? I don't know the examples you mention, but usually when a villain is overly liked, they're made sympathetic, or get retconned as anti-heroes and they were doing it for the good all along. But Cerberus is ME3 is made so dumb and for the evulz, that this doesn't seem to apply. Certainly. The label of a writer's pet doesn't necessarily have to mean that the creation in question suddenly has to be re-imagined as the closet good guys. All that is needed is for the object of the writer's affections to receive inordinate time in the spotlight and/or advantages and victories that flow in direct contrast to pre-established lore and logic. Cerberus being able to directly challenge major species in military engagements despite being a small terrorist organization. Cerberus being able to create advanced medical procedures above and beyond the combined medical minds of the galaxy. Cerberus being able to infiltrate and directly assault the Salarian home world; an alien who's whole shtik is cloak & dagger espionage/subterfuge. Cerberus being the only ones to be able to track down the Shadow Broker. Cerberus being able to maintain a constant stream of separate cells and operatives despite practically every single one of them blowing up in their faces. Cerberus getting more screen time than the Reapers in ME 3. Cerberus being showcased in nearly all the Foundation comics. Etc. Matt Ward and Mac Walters are similar in their respective writing here because, in essence, the result comes across like the fan fiction of a hardcore fanboy.
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Post by GrimBroom on Nov 2, 2016 20:41:04 GMT
One of the things that annoys me in Mass Effect 3 is the prevalence of Cerberus armors available to Shepard. Five of the twelve unique sets are Cerberus, by my count. On top of that, they make some of those other seven unique sets more or less obsolete in terms of bonuses. I realize it can be argued that the bonuses are generally insignificant, anyway, and that you are far better off stacking a single bonus type with the individual pieces, but it nags me, nonetheless. Also, you won't get all the individual pieces for a single bonus until late game, generally speaking.
For weapons, the Cerberus Harrier is an optimal assault rifle. The Hornet is the best submachine gun, if you don't have access to the Blood Pack Punisher or N7 Hurricane. The Talon is great. I guess the Raptor is the weak link, although even there, it has to rank fairly high in the low weight, high rate of fire category for snipers. Granted, you have lots of weapon options, particularly with DLC, although I have other types of trivial roleplaying hang-ups with many of them, too.
None of this can be laid at the writers' feet (at least, I assume), but I'm sympathetic in general to the Cerberus fixation argument.
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Post by RedCaesar97 on Nov 3, 2016 2:10:30 GMT
Other opinions I hold that may be unpopular; 1. Garrus was not an interesting character until ME3.
2. Tali was never an interesting character.
3. Liara was never an interesting character.
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Post by straykat on Nov 3, 2016 2:51:50 GMT
Other opinions I hold that may be unpopular; 1. Garrus was not an interesting character until ME3. 2. Tali was never an interesting character. 3. Liara was never an interesting character. I thought Garrus was unintentionally cool in ME2. I think they realized that and then tried too hard in 3.. it's more self-aware. Which takes out some of the charm for me. But before, his calibrations line was funny... because he only had two dialogue trees outside of that. It was funny that you couldn't get anything else out of him... at least as a male. And him shouting "Impressive!" at his own shots was funny.
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Nov 3, 2016 5:55:13 GMT
No I'm arguing against you because the game can be interpreted many ways and the way you are saying is your personal interpretation. And this seems to be a reoccurring thing with you. You over simplify the complexity of motivation and reasoning. Particularly when you include the fact the key reason she went to Cerberus was because they had the resources to protect her and Oriana from her Father. You keep desperately trying to forget about her sister and the effect she has on Miranda's choices. Up to the fact that prevent her sister from falling into the hands of her Father again is her loyalty mission. Not wiping out data containing key information about Cerberus. Not stopping an assassination plot against TIM. Purely focused on her sister. This adds that complexity to her character that you are trying desperately to wipe out to maintain the validity of your stance. With that in mind my entire set up is 100% valid interpretation. My set up also gives an explanation to why she would quit. While yours has no explanations only that she quit. No control chip would have clearly prevented Shepard from being able to exercise his own will if TIM or Miranda didn't like what he was planning. In battle Shepard would still be capable of making his own tactical decisions but if Miranda told him to jump then he would be in the air as soon as the command left her lips. This is exactly how the Cerbrus troops in ME 3 behave only they got a boost to their capabilities though the integration of Reaper technology. Increased strength, durability, biotic capabilities, etc. This is yet another flaw in your very rigid interpretation of Miranda. Because everything she knows about Cerberus but still supports and everything she was willing to do herself are the exact same things that Cerberus does to their troopers in Me 3. No, what I'm saying is what the game shows. You interpret she has no loyalty to Cerberus or more specifically, their ideals, contrary to what is outright said in the games. You can't just say whatever you want contrary to plain evidence, claim "interpretation" and leave it at that. You are in direct contradiction to what is shown in the games, therefore you are wrong. Her reason for going to Cerberus is irrelevant, or rather outside the scope of this discussion. Oriana is why she initially went to Cerberus, it's not the primary reason she stayed for twenty years. There is no contesting this. And my limit of repetition has been reached. I will not address this point again. Your so-called "interpretation" doesn't account for Miranda's departure any more than the games themselves do. In fact, your view is more nonsensical. Oriana is relocated with Cerberus resources. There is no change in her status in that respect after the loyalty mission. So if Miranda quit now, it'd be the same as quitting five, ten or fifteen years ago, Cerberus could still turn her over to Lawson as easily then as now. You have no basis for what the control chip may have done as it is never seen. And given TIM's parameters for Lazarus that Shepard be brought back exactly as he was pretty clearly indicates having a zombie on remote control is not what he had in mind. Shepard isn't valuable for his combat skills (exceptional though they may be) he's valuable for his leadership and ability to inspire loyalty, things a Cerberus trooper will never have. So it's downright ludicrous to think the control chip would turn Shepard into an assault trooper as this is directly contrary to the purpose behind bringing him back. This is in addition to the laughable notion that a simple failsafe (probably a bomb) planted in a test subject's skull is the same as using tech from mecha Cthulu to turn your own people into inhuman abominations. A supposedly pro-human group that actively strips the humanity from their troops is definitely not something Miranda would be a part of. Yes Oriana was the primary reason for her to go to Cerberus. It was also the primary reason she stayed because the resources Cerberus offered her allowed her to keep her save. Matching the resources her Father as one of the most wealthy humans in the galaxy had at his disposal. Her father isn't some broke abusive drug addled idiot who simply moving her to another planet would put Oriana completely out of his grasp. He is a billionaire with connections to the Alliance Government and with most likely contacts within the criminal underground. Or at least enough credits to buy their assistance. And yes it is said in game by a person who has been working for a secret terrorist organization. Who wanted to implant a control chip in Shepard. Who created his old ship and had familiar faces like Joker and the Dr Chakwas. Who despite being a pro human organization, so much so that they boarder on xenophobia that a fair number of squad mates Shepard is told to recruit are not humans. And a couple of them are equally old familiar faces to him. Who has an AI on board who regularly monitors and reports back to TIM with Miranda acting in a similar set up. Always denouncing negative actions of Cerberus even though EDI will directly contradict her claims. Because TIM only has a handful of projects active at any one time so he can keep a direct eye on them. These things are even more relative for the context of the situation when you take into account a more paragon Shepard who is very reluctant to help Cerberus in the first place. The entire set up is based around manipulating Shepard to do Cerberus's dirty work while making them seem sympathetic to them. And it is her job to make sure the illusion is maintained to keep Shepard in line. Because that is her job. With that context she could say gravity exists and I would question it. Actually it does because when you strip the rigid interpretation of her being Cerberus's number 1 supporter and lover of all they have done since her joining the organization because she truly believes every single thing they have done. You can actually start to bring realistic morality into the situation. The final of it being TIM attempting to convince Shepard to keep the Collector Base in tact to allow him unlimited access to the technology inside. Because the inherent issues of TIM with his lack of morals and mentality getting a hold of that technology is obviously bad. So she make sure she has non Cerberus based contacts for protecting her sister, soaks up all the information from TIM she can manage then gets the hell out of dodge. Because it has finally reached the point she can not justify assisting them anymore even if it is to protect her sister. Because her actions had helped raise a serious threat to everyone if TIM had his way. But the control chip wouldn't turn him into a zombie. What it would do is allow them to over ride control of him if he steps out of line. Which is why TIM was against it because that set up might cause problems. It wouldn't strip away his ability to reason it would strip away his free will to act if it wasn't in line with what TIM or Miranda had in mind. Adding the control Chip is no different then the Reaper effect that TIM later used. Only it provided more bonus by actually making the soldiers better. And stripping humans of their free will and experimenting on them horribly all in the name of the advancement of humanity. Is exactly what Cerberus is already well known for and according to you what Miranda is already aware of and doesn't have a problem with. Nothing about the Cerberus troops is out of line in terms of action or logic of Cerberus's past activities. Which again someone 20 years working and according to you anyways 2nd in command of the entire organization would be well aware of.
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Post by themikefest on Nov 3, 2016 11:35:31 GMT
I would've set up ME3 to have Harbinger being destroyed causing the reapers to stop the harvest.
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Post by CrutchCricket on Nov 3, 2016 14:46:38 GMT
Yes Oriana was the primary reason for her to go to Cerberus. It was also the primary reason she stayed because the resources Cerberus offered her allowed her to keep her save. So she make sure she has non Cerberus based contacts for protecting her sister, soaks up all the information from TIM she can manage then gets the hell out of dodge. Because it has finally reached the point she can not justify assisting them anymore even if it is to protect her sister. Because her actions had helped raise a serious threat to everyone if TIM had his way. But the control chip wouldn't turn him into a zombie. What it would do is allow them to over ride control of him if he steps out of line. Which is why TIM was against it because that set up might cause problems. It wouldn't strip away his ability to reason it would strip away his free will to act if it wasn't in line with what TIM or Miranda had in mind. Cut out a bunch of irrelevant stuff. That's something else you seem to do, throw out a word salad not relevant to the argument in the hopes that someone will rebut every one or more points in it and so get sidetracked, until by the end of it, it's back to multipage multiquote posts where you either don't know what you were initially arguing or you just get tired of trying to keep it straight. Obvious, in retrospect. You'll excuse me if I don't fall for it again. If Oriana was the primary reason for joining/staying and Cerberus resources are required to keep her safe, why leave? This does not change at the end of ME2. You have provided no argument to this effect. Source on these mythical "non-Cerberus" resources? I thought Cerberus was necessary to keep Daddy at bay, something about not being drug addled? Ah, so now you're saying Cerberus is crossing some moral line that's unacceptable to Miranda... kind of like what I've been saying, that you keep giving me shit for. Well then, you face the same problems. Come on, let's hear it, what is the exact, stated way Cerberus is different before and after ME2 and at what exact point does Miranda decide to quit? Tell me, and you make my argument for me. The only difference is my argument doesn't contradict the game. You don't know what the control chip would've done, but even in your version, that's not taking away free will. "Override control when he steps out of line" is functionally no different than having a gun at his head the whole time. If I hold a gun to your head have I robbed you of your free will? No. You can't do otherwise than what I say, but that's not all there is to it. You can still think freely. This you admit Shepard can do and TIM requires it in order for Shepard to be as he was. Which means that Shepard would still know he was being controlled and could attempt to subvert it or remove it. None of this applies to the troopers in ME3 who have been indoctrinated. They are zombies, free will and humanity stripped irreversibly. And if I have to tell you the difference between one test subject in an experiment vs pretty much the entirety of your employees and later, civilians by the hundreds, I suspect we're wasting our time.
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Post by Garo on Nov 4, 2016 15:50:15 GMT
I would gladly have more games dedicated to Shepard ^^
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Post by napoleon on Nov 4, 2016 17:37:36 GMT
It seems liking Liara is actually an unpopular opinion on this forum.
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Post by Phantom on Nov 4, 2016 18:29:36 GMT
In terms of writer's pet accusations that the community in general throws around, I would ascribe to the notion that it is not Liara who gets the award for most obvious writer's pet in-game, but rather Cerberus. The sheer amount of spotlight this organization gets in-game, as well in tie in novels and comics far outweighs any preference given to a particular Asari. Now, while I wouldn't go so far as to say that Cerberus was being elevated to the same level of Matt Ward's Ultramarines or Grey Knights from WH40K, I will say that Mac Walter's showcasing of Cerberus being involved in almost every event that goes on the trilogy was pretty dang close. Interesting thought. Can a villain/antagonist be a writer's pet? I don't know the examples you mention, but usually when a villain is overly liked, they're made sympathetic, or get retconned as anti-heroes and they were doing it for the good all along. But Cerberus is ME3 is made so dumb and for the evulz, that this doesn't seem to apply. Well With Cerberus and ME3, there are plenty of bad writing to go around with all factions and many characters. Either Indoctrination Theory is True, or ME3 stinks of Bad Writing.
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Post by themikefest on Nov 4, 2016 18:41:58 GMT
Well With Cerberus and ME3, there are plenty of bad writing to go around with all factions and many characters. Either Indoctrination Theory is True, or ME3 stinks of Bad Writing. Remember sH0tgUn jUliA.? She posted a number of times saying bad writing theory(BWT)
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Post by Phantom on Nov 4, 2016 18:57:36 GMT
Well With Cerberus and ME3, there are plenty of bad writing to go around with all factions and many characters. Either Indoctrination Theory is True, or ME3 stinks of Bad Writing. Remember sH0tgUn jUliA.? She posted a number of times saying bad writing theory(BWT) yeah, I remember that user. my post is a kindva of a reference to that. then again, Bad Writing makes everything bad. I have a pet Indoctrination theory that breaks the 4th wall and exploits the derpiness of some fans. Well I do admit it is trollish but I like it because some fans are just that derpy. Then again, every fandom has their derps.
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Post by straykat on Nov 4, 2016 19:28:14 GMT
It seems liking Liara is actually an unpopular opinion on this forum. Pretty much. Although I grew to like her myself. Instead of "stalker", which is the common (and funny) complaint, I started seeing her in bigger terms. She kind of has Paragon Control traits in a way. And there isn't any other character like that, so it's good for someone to have that place (you might say Aria, TIM, and somewhat Miranda fall more in the Renegade control category). Of course, Control is dealing with synthetics, but I think it can apply to general behavior too. It's frustrating when a character is so prominent in the series, and yet they don't fit well with how people approach the series. But this is how I started appreciating her role.
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Post by napoleon on Nov 4, 2016 19:56:45 GMT
Each to their own. She's definitely my favorite character and romance for both sexes. I did like her a lot better when she was more naive back in ME1 and found her sudden character shift to be rather jarring.
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
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Post by Iakus on Nov 4, 2016 20:07:47 GMT
Well With Cerberus and ME3, there are plenty of bad writing to go around with all factions and many characters. Either Indoctrination Theory is True, or ME3 stinks of Bad Writing. Remember sH0tgUn jUliA.? She posted a number of times saying bad writing theory(BWT) Also known as "Art"
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Mad Hermit
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Aug 11, 2016 16:33:09 GMT
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straykat
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August 2016
straykat
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Post by straykat on Nov 4, 2016 20:52:48 GMT
Each to their own. She's definitely my favorite character and romance for both sexes. I did like her a lot better when she was more naive back in ME1 and found her sudden character shift to be rather jarring. I started to wonder if it was all planned... at least loosely. I said several times lately that the games remind me somewhat of Groundhog Day.. where Shep keeps experiencing similar elements of themes and motifs, throughout the series. If you recruit Liara after your first Citadel experience, it's a clever segue from the Shadow Broker stuff with Wrex, Barla Von, and Tali. There's all this mystery about the Broker and who they are.. and lo and behold, your next recruit is the future Broker. That could have been accidental.... but at the very least, it makes for a clever story hint. While in the cluster where Therum is at, you get your first taste of Cerberus/Kahoku which also leads to talking to the Shadow Broker agent later. Not to mention Nassana's sister is in the same cluster as Liara's... I always thought it was a way to show how deceptive and shady Asari could be... to not be deceived by their sweet guise. Nasanna shows up again when you talk to Liara in ME2. Another hint at their shadiness, but Liara is even closer to it now. Not to mention that Benezia herself is Saren's main minion --- and to me, it's kind of transparent that they were eventually leading Liara down a similar path. Despite the differences. I don't think she was ever meant to be "Bad" like Benezia, but I don't think she was ever destined to play the innocent scientist either. This is a longer post than I meant.. but that's my (whopping) 2 cents
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Post by Deleted on Nov 4, 2016 21:59:39 GMT
Each to their own. She's definitely my favorite character and romance for both sexes. I did like her a lot better when she was more naive back in ME1 and found her sudden character shift to be rather jarring. I started to wonder if it was all planned... at least loosely. I said several times lately that the games remind me somewhat of Groundhog Day.. where Shep keeps experiencing similar elements of themes and motifs, throughout the series. If you recruit Liara after your first Citadel experience, it's a clever segue from the Shadow Broker stuff with Wrex, Barla Von, and Tali. There's all this mystery about the Broker and who they are.. and lo and behold, your next recruit is the future Broker. That could have been accidental.... but at the very least, it makes for a clever story hint. While in the cluster where Therum is at, you get your first taste of Cerberus/Kahoku which also leads to talking to the Shadow Broker agent later. Not to mention Nassana's sister is in the same cluster as Liara's... I always thought it was a way to show how deceptive and shady Asari could be... to not be deceived by their sweet guise. Nasanna shows up again when you talk to Liara in ME2. Another hint at their shadiness, but Liara is even closer to it now. Not to mention that Benezia herself is Saren's main minion --- and to me, it's kind of transparent that they were eventually leading Liara down a similar path. Despite the differences. I don't think she was ever meant to be "Bad" like Benezia, but I don't think she was ever destined to play the innocent scientist either. This is a longer post than I meant.. but that's my (whopping) 2 cents I have sometimes wondered if Liara wasn't meant to eventually be revealed as an Ardat-Yakshi.
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Mad Hermit
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August 2016
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Post by straykat on Nov 4, 2016 22:06:51 GMT
I started to wonder if it was all planned... at least loosely. I said several times lately that the games remind me somewhat of Groundhog Day.. where Shep keeps experiencing similar elements of themes and motifs, throughout the series. If you recruit Liara after your first Citadel experience, it's a clever segue from the Shadow Broker stuff with Wrex, Barla Von, and Tali. There's all this mystery about the Broker and who they are.. and lo and behold, your next recruit is the future Broker. That could have been accidental.... but at the very least, it makes for a clever story hint. While in the cluster where Therum is at, you get your first taste of Cerberus/Kahoku which also leads to talking to the Shadow Broker agent later. Not to mention Nassana's sister is in the same cluster as Liara's... I always thought it was a way to show how deceptive and shady Asari could be... to not be deceived by their sweet guise. Nasanna shows up again when you talk to Liara in ME2. Another hint at their shadiness, but Liara is even closer to it now. Not to mention that Benezia herself is Saren's main minion --- and to me, it's kind of transparent that they were eventually leading Liara down a similar path. Despite the differences. I don't think she was ever meant to be "Bad" like Benezia, but I don't think she was ever destined to play the innocent scientist either. This is a longer post than I meant.. but that's my (whopping) 2 cents I have sometimes wondered if Liara wasn't meant to eventually be revealed as an Ardat-Yakshi. I'm utterly clueless on Ardat-Yakshi and what their purpose was... I suppose since their writer left (but you'd think they'd still have a plan). But that would have been interesting too. She is pureblood after all.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 4, 2016 22:49:32 GMT
I like Liara. One of my favourite Mass Effect characters, that in itself apparently an unpopular opinion on here But I think for me she improved drastically across the trilogy and DLC. She was pretty meh in ME1, non-existent in ME2, but it was the Shadow Broker DLC that started making me appreciate her and her character more, particularly her friendship and loyalty to Shepard. By ME3, she had become one of my favourites, probably because of the extreme ME1 bias I have, towards all the characters and such, which is why having Kaidan, Liara, Garrus and Tali back in ME3 was what I preferred over having the ME2 cast back (another unpopular opinion). I also like as Straykat mentioned, how several seemingly unconnected story threads in ME1, are eventually linked and connected over the course of the trilogy. Which is why, going from how Cerberus were depicted in ME1, us suddenly joining Cerberus in ME2 is my biggest problem with the game and series overall (another unpopular opinion).
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napoleon
N2
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
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Oct 29, 2016 21:02:21 GMT
October 2016
napoleon
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
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Post by napoleon on Nov 5, 2016 3:15:30 GMT
I never got the impression that we joined Cerberus. My Shepard's always believed they were simply pooling resources to fight a much greater threat, the Reapers. Humanity can't be superior if everyone is dead. At best Cerberus and Shepard were always going to be temporary teammates. I think the greater crime is what was done to Cerberus in ME3 turning them from a well funded independent organization into literal Space Nazis with the capability to go toe to toe with galactic civilizations. I could buy the leap from Cerberus in ME1 to ME2 but the leap from ME2 to ME3 was fucking insane.
Prior to ME3 I had been dreaming of playing a Shepard trying to keep the tenuous alliance of the various armies (including Cerberus) together in preparation for the final fight. Instead my hopes and dreams were dashed...
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