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Post by CrutchCricket on Nov 6, 2016 20:32:22 GMT
I wouldn't know about talking to him as the human councilor since I choose Udina. Even if he's the councilor, why can't he talk to other members of the Alliance to do something/ Wait minute. That can't happen. The other council memebrs will shut him down, right? If he's not the councilor then he does what he's told by the Alliance and thus has even less autonomy. Please explain what you want him to do in either case and note, simply packing the original squadmates on a shuttle has already been debunked. What? Again with the assumption. The only thing I expect him to do is make an effort to find a way to stop the reapers. Then again, please define what you think that is. What are you saying? He's just a puppet and should act like one? Not care about stopping something that threatens his species and the galaxy? If he had any balls, which apparently he doesn't, he would ignore the other council members by letting the Alliance know about the reapers and the threat they pose and that finding a way to stop them may help. Is there no middle ground between "puppet" and "fuck you all I'll do what I want"? No, he's not a puppet, he simply can't work in a vacuum. Both as Councilor and Udina's aide, he's stuck on the Citadel, thrust into bullshit politics and away from any sort of combat authority. So again, what do you want him to do? Don't make the mistake of assuming I wouldn't know there wasn't more than two officers in the Alliance. I know about Chain of Command. I doubt the higher ups would go against any reports from Anderson and Hackett about the threat the reapers pose. They wouldn't see a problem with trying to find a way to stop the reapers and give a go ahead. These are the same higher ups that lock Shepard up for six months to "prepare for the Reapers"? I think you're vastly overestimating their intelligence or at best, belief in the threat. There is no indication that the Alliance is any less disbelieving, complacent or dumb than the Council, Anderson and Hackett notwithstanding. That little obsession went way too far. Meh. It got the job done. Anything beyond that is a separate issue.
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Nov 6, 2016 20:42:13 GMT
It is called supporting arguments so I'm sorry if anything more then 5 sentences is a bit much for you. I'll try to be more brief -I did -In reference to her line in ME3 about her sources going dark -You have her put Cerberus on such a pedestal and emphasis so much how she loves all they do and how she would be aware of it all being 2nd in command of the entire organization. So the sudden change of heart doesn't make any sense. -gun to head not same. Troops still shown to be able to plan, reason and communicate. Indoctrination makes you think one way control chip forces you to think one way or get punished. Two sides of the same coin. Heads = indoctrination, tails = control chip Supporting arguments support something. Going off on a tagent does not. And careful. I hope you're not slipping back to old ways... -No you didn't. Cerberus resources protected Oriana before, Cerberus resources protect Oriana now. If Oriana is all that matters for Miranda, nothing's changed. -Supposition. Sources going dark could mean anything. And even if Miranda was able to entirely switch out Cerberus guards for her own people, why would it take her twenty years to do that? Does not follow. -Misrepresenting my position will get you nowhere. Do you have an answer for what moral line Miranda won't cross or not? -Saren was still able to plan, reason and communicate. Benezia was still able to plan, reason and communicate. This means nothing. Indoctrination = brainwashing which is the greatest removal of free will short of becoming a literal puppet on strings. "Do x or suffer" on the other hand is mundane coercion, a gun to the head. Not even close to the same thing. -Did -Going dark has one meaning -You clearly defended the set up multiple times against me saying she wasn't that big a fan -Chip is to a club what indoctrination is to a sniper rifle.
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Post by themikefest on Nov 6, 2016 21:07:25 GMT
CrutchCricketget rid of the profanity and might respond to your post
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Post by CrutchCricket on Nov 6, 2016 21:09:56 GMT
-Did -Going dark has one meaning -You clearly defended the set up multiple times against me saying she wasn't that big a fan -Chip is to a club what indoctrination is to a sniper rifle. So you have no answers. You fail to list a good reason why Miranda would leave now as opposed to at any other time if Oriana is all she cares about. Therefore your interpretation does not even hold up logically, in addition to being contrary to the game. Anything further is you arguing just because you want to argue, with zero basis in fact or reason. So be it. This exchange is over.
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Post by CrutchCricket on Nov 6, 2016 21:13:49 GMT
CrutchCricket get rid of the profanity and might respond to your post That's not how it works around here. I'm positive you're not a small child, you can handle the f word. Particularly when used as a hypothetical and not directed towards you. If you would like to answer my question, I'd be happy to hear it. If not, that's cool too.
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Nov 6, 2016 23:26:27 GMT
-Did -Going dark has one meaning -You clearly defended the set up multiple times against me saying she wasn't that big a fan -Chip is to a club what indoctrination is to a sniper rifle. So you have no answers. You fail to list a good reason why Miranda would leave now as opposed to at any other time if Oriana is all she cares about. Therefore your interpretation does not even hold up logically, in addition to being contrary to the game. Anything further is you arguing just because you want to argue, with zero basis in fact or reason. So be it. This exchange is over. I did You wanted brevity so I am giving you brevity. Don't ask for what your not prepared to receive. Sorry that was to long a reply you get what you want.
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Post by Vortex13 on Nov 7, 2016 14:46:45 GMT
Throwing an Elcor or Hanar who couldn't do anything but stand around and talk would have been completely pointless. And yet you still don't understand why they made aliens human like. You keep trying to argue past or around what I said. Yet you never directly respond to specifically what I say. You list all the narrative weight associated with Cortez and Traynor, and yet all they do for 99% of the game is "stand around and talk" so why couldn't it have been a Hanar or Elcor again? Why couldn't we get to hear about the results of the Reaper invasion on their worlds, about how their society is dealing with the prospect of imminent extinction? We get ample time dedicated to how we should feel bad for Earth, about how the war is going back home, but close to zero impact when it comes to the non-human species. Heck, the throw away side mission with the Elcor ambassador and how no one was helping to evacuate Dekuna was far more compelling and emotionally charged than finding out that Traynor is attracted to the sound of EDI's voice, or that Cortez likes to watch ships dock. As for the earlier discussion about how an audience can't identify with something so 'alien' to our perceptions, I would have to disagree entirely. The process is more involved, one that writers generally like to avoid because it's 'too hard', but you can present a scenario wherein something completely foreign to our notions of what things 'should be' is non the less still understandable. At the risk of coming across like a broken record from some of my other posts on this topic, I would again like to point to Peter Watt's novel Blindsight as the perfect example of this: See I can understand the aliens' line of reasoning as depicted in this scenario; it isn't some incomprehensible topic that my human brain refuses to compute. Something like this forces the audience to think outside their comfort zone, to try and understand the 'alien' nature of this scenario, to approach a universe that doesn't automatically conform to our way of viewing things. I would love to explore something like this in-game, to try and figure out a way of communication with this species that doesn't result in conflict. It's certainly more interesting than having yet another human character tell us who they are sexually attracted to, or how their father didn't love them enough as a child.
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Post by themikefest on Nov 7, 2016 15:03:18 GMT
You list all the narrative weight associated with Cortez and Traynor, and yet all they do for 99% of the game is "stand around and talk"
I agree about Sam, but she did bring up the Grissom mission and the ex-Cerberus scientists mission. Steve standing around for 99%? No. In the game I played, he was flying the shuttle getting Shepard to and from missions.
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Post by Vortex13 on Nov 7, 2016 15:08:31 GMT
You list all the narrative weight associated with Cortez and Traynor, and yet all they do for 99% of the game is "stand around and talk"
I agree about Sam, but she did bring up the Grissom mission and the ex-Cerberus scientists mission. Steve standing around for 99%? No. In the game I played, he was flying the shuttle getting Shepard to and from missions. Sam bringing up the mission for Grissom or Cerberus scientists, and Steve flying Shepard to and from missions still involved both of them standing or sitting for nearly the entirety of the cutscenes related to those events. To me, one can't make arguments against having an Elcor or Hanar in those positions because of their species' lack of movement when Sam and Steve showcased about the same level of animation.
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Post by themikefest on Nov 7, 2016 15:15:38 GMT
Sam bringing up the mission for Grissom or Cerberus scientists, and Steve flying Shepard to and from missions still involved both of them standing or sitting for nearly the entirety of the cutscenes related to those events. That would apply to all characters if you believe that Steve stands around talking for 99% of the game Its a human ship. Why should there be alien crewmembers?
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Nov 7, 2016 15:26:10 GMT
Throwing an Elcor or Hanar who couldn't do anything but stand around and talk would have been completely pointless. And yet you still don't understand why they made aliens human like. You keep trying to argue past or around what I said. Yet you never directly respond to specifically what I say. You list all the narrative weight associated with Cortez and Traynor, and yet all they do for 99% of the game is "stand around and talk" so why couldn't it have been a Hanar or Elcor again? Why couldn't we get to hear about the results of the Reaper invasion on their worlds, about how their society is dealing with the prospect of imminent extinction? We get ample time dedicated to how we should feel bad for Earth, about how the war is going back home, but close to zero impact when it comes to the non-human species. Heck, the throw away side mission with the Elcor ambassador and how no one was helping to evacuate Dekuna was far more compelling and emotionally charged than finding out that Traynor is attracted to the sound of EDI's voice, or that Cortez likes to watch ships dock. As for the earlier discussion about how an audience can't identify with something so 'alien' to our perceptions, I would have to disagree entirely. The process is more involved, one that writers generally like to avoid because it's 'too hard', but you can present a scenario wherein something completely foreign to our notions of what things 'should be' is non the less still understandable. At the risk of coming across like a broken record from some of my other posts on this topic, I would again like to point to Peter Watt's novel Blindsight as the perfect example of this: See I can understand the aliens' line of reasoning as depicted in this scenario; it isn't some incomprehensible topic that my human brain refuses to compute. Something like this forces the audience to think outside their comfort zone, to try and understand the 'alien' nature of this scenario, to approach a universe that doesn't automatically conform to our way of viewing things. I would love to explore something like this in-game, to try and figure out a way of communication with this species that doesn't result in conflict. It's certainly more interesting than having yet another human character tell us who they are sexually attracted to, or how their father didn't love them enough as a child. No I pointed to the social impact of a AAA game having and allowing a homosexual relationship to be so openly displayed and refuses to fall to any stereotypes. Ranking right up there with the Korra/Asami pairing at the end of Legend of Korra. A step forward for a group that when this game came out wasn't even allowed to be married. At least in USA because people cherry picked what they want out of a book. And their respective stories add to the over all. A person struggling with the loss of a loved one and book worm thrust into the very center of conflict for their very existence. Your quote doesn't make any sense because I assume it is a part of a larger quote that you edited out. Without proper context all that comes across as incoherent jumble of words. It sounds like you are trying to talk about a computer virus. But you ignore that computer viruses are not conscious entities. They are literally programed to behave a certain way by their creator. They are more akin to cells. Who are programed to have only one purpose and one action. In fact Again though your quote lacks necessary context to make the point you want to make. Because your set up sounds a lot like the infamous Morris Worm of 1988. Self replicating computer program that due to it's programing spread uncontrollably across the early internet infecting 10% of all computers connected to it.
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Post by Vortex13 on Nov 7, 2016 15:33:38 GMT
Sam bringing up the mission for Grissom or Cerberus scientists, and Steve flying Shepard to and from missions still involved both of them standing or sitting for nearly the entirety of the cutscenes related to those events. That would apply to all characters if you believe that Steve stands around talking for 99% of the game Its a human ship. Why should there be alien crewmembers? Except Sam and Steve are not once seen in a combat situation; as in running, diving behind cover and shooting at enemies. Detractors against having an Elcor or Hanar always go on about how they would be too slow and/or useless on a battlefield, and yet having said aliens in the same role as those two characters would require no application of combat prowess. Which throws the whole 'animation' argument out (IMO). Mass Effect is a science fiction setting filled with aliens though. Why bother going through the effort of creating said aliens if you aren't going to use them for anything? Why bother having Javik, Tali, Garaus, Wrex, Liara, etc. on board if we are going to just go with "Its a human ship" as a reason? I certainly wasn't sold on a game with the sole intention of just Interacting with all of my human shipmates, and talking about our human drama on our human adventures.
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Post by themikefest on Nov 7, 2016 15:38:35 GMT
Except Sam and Steve are not once seen in a combat situation; as in running, diving behind cover and shooting at enemies. Never said they were. Though if the Leviathan dlc is to be counted, Steve do more than fly the shuttle They're squadmates
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
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Post by Iakus on Nov 7, 2016 15:40:17 GMT
And how hard is it for him to assign a shuttle to Joker to take Ashley/Kaidan, with Garrus to take Liara back to Eden Prime to see if there's any other clues that might be found besides that beacon? Or how about asking Liara check out the archives on Mars? Or have them go back to Ilos to see if there's anything more? Yeah I know. The council sent someone to investigate Ilos, but found nothing. But did they have someone that studied prothean? So no. He made no effort at all. All he did was sit on his fifth point of contact doing a whole lot of nothing while taking the shape of his chair. Just like the Alliance and the ME1 characters who did nothing. They turned there back on Shepard and the galaxy. To heck with them. You forget Liara went all ruthless underworld broker at the flip of a coin after ME1. While not obviously a "terrorist" like Cerberus, it's unlikely an Alliance officer or a token councilor could officially do business with someone like that. Garrus peaced to Omega and the VS was sent to the Terminus to deal with a problem the Alliance found real enough- colony protection. Likely not Anderson's idea as it is, as the VS is not under his command, as a captain or a Councilor. Neither are the rest of them, really. So while the general inaction of the Alliance and Council is annoying, you're getting worked up about Anderson for nothing. Stupidity is the Only Option is not roleplaying, it's railroading. Nor is ME (especially the third one) much good at the feeling/reacting thing either. It wasn't until the very end of ME2 that I felt I really got to give Cerberus the finger. I never played a Sole Survivor again after my first run because it made zero sense to not mention the thresher maw thing to TIM. What are you talking about? The stupidity is all on the Alliance/Council for still going "ah yes reapers" after ME1. Cerberus is the only ones who are doing anything about the issue in ME2 so the smart thing is to at least try and work together. "But durr terrorists" would be the stupid option there. Everyone holds the idiot ball in this series at one point or another it's true, but that doesn't have anything to do with this discussion. The bottom line is in ME2 you're forced to work with Cerberus but you can play nice or hostile all the way through. In ME3, there is zero option to do anything about the Alliance, other than "sir yes sir" salute like an idiot robot. That's railroading. I don't think anyone will disagree that ME3 was horribly railroaded. But that doesn't mean ME2 wasn't as well. The whole Alliance and Council holding the idiot ball was a stupid, railroaded way to force Shepard to "work for the bad guys" because DAMMIT THAT'S WHAT WE WANT TO HAPPEN! Regardless of what logical contortions they have to go through to make it happen. Why doesn't the Council trust me? Because I'm working for Cerberus Why am I working for Cerberus? Because the Council doesn't trust me. Why doesn't the Council Trust me? And where are the options to tell this to the VS? Where can I tell them "I've been to the Council and talked to Anderson. They don't like it but they're letting me work with Cerberus. I'm even a Spectre again!" Where can I give them the information Shepard gained from Freedom's Progress? When can I tell them Tali vouches for me? Or Joker? Or Chakwas? The meeting with the VS was nothing but railroaded drama.
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Post by Vortex13 on Nov 7, 2016 15:45:46 GMT
You list all the narrative weight associated with Cortez and Traynor, and yet all they do for 99% of the game is "stand around and talk" so why couldn't it have been a Hanar or Elcor again? Why couldn't we get to hear about the results of the Reaper invasion on their worlds, about how their society is dealing with the prospect of imminent extinction? We get ample time dedicated to how we should feel bad for Earth, about how the war is going back home, but close to zero impact when it comes to the non-human species. Heck, the throw away side mission with the Elcor ambassador and how no one was helping to evacuate Dekuna was far more compelling and emotionally charged than finding out that Traynor is attracted to the sound of EDI's voice, or that Cortez likes to watch ships dock. As for the earlier discussion about how an audience can't identify with something so 'alien' to our perceptions, I would have to disagree entirely. The process is more involved, one that writers generally like to avoid because it's 'too hard', but you can present a scenario wherein something completely foreign to our notions of what things 'should be' is non the less still understandable. At the risk of coming across like a broken record from some of my other posts on this topic, I would again like to point to Peter Watt's novel Blindsight as the perfect example of this: See I can understand the aliens' line of reasoning as depicted in this scenario; it isn't some incomprehensible topic that my human brain refuses to compute. Something like this forces the audience to think outside their comfort zone, to try and understand the 'alien' nature of this scenario, to approach a universe that doesn't automatically conform to our way of viewing things. I would love to explore something like this in-game, to try and figure out a way of communication with this species that doesn't result in conflict. It's certainly more interesting than having yet another human character tell us who they are sexually attracted to, or how their father didn't love them enough as a child. No I pointed to the social impact of a AAA game having and allowing a homosexual relationship to be so openly displayed and refuses to fall to any stereotypes. Ranking right up there with the Korra/Asami pairing at the end of Legend of Korra. A step forward for a group that when this game came out wasn't even allowed to be married. At least in USA because people cherry picked what they want out of a book. And their respective stories add to the over all. A person struggling with the loss of a loved one and book worm thrust into the very center of conflict for their very existence. Your quote doesn't make any sense because I assume it is a part of a larger quote that you edited out. Without proper context all that comes across as incoherent jumble of words. It sounds like you are trying to talk about a computer virus. But you ignore that computer viruses are not conscious entities. They are literally programed to behave a certain way by their creator. They are more akin to cells. Who are programed to have only one purpose and one action. In fact Again though your quote lacks necessary context to make the point you want to make. Because your set up sounds a lot like the infamous Morris Worm of 1988. Self replicating computer program that due to it's programing spread uncontrollably across the early internet infecting 10% of all computers connected to it. And Mass Effect is a science fiction setting, I would like to see some actual sci-fi once in a while. Yeah we get more representation for homosexuals, but any serious attempt at 'alien' elements has seen even less representation in all mainstream media. I mean if we are going to weigh which minority 'deserves' more screen time due to previous depictions of it then I would say that the non-human elements need it far more than any human outliers. And yes the quote is from a larger source, the novel Blindsight, but the whole point behind it was that here we have a non-human intelligence, with wants and desires vastly different from our own, and yet it is understandable to the audience. It sounds like programing talk because that the best way to represent this alien in terms the character talking to Sacha can understand. The Scramblers from this book are aliens with vast intelligence yet they posses no consciousness. This fundamental difference from how we humans experience things is what makes them so compelling as aliens and why they require such a logical breakdown in the quote I used.
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Post by themikefest on Nov 7, 2016 16:16:19 GMT
Why doesn't the Council trust me? Because I'm working for Cerberus Why am I working for Cerberus? Because the Council doesn't trust me. Why doesn't the Council Trust me? Why should I trust the council? They don't care about humans. Cerberus does Why should I trust the Alliance? They never cared. Cerberus does Why I'm I working with Cerberus? Because I can't trust the Alliance and council
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Post by Iakus on Nov 7, 2016 16:37:03 GMT
Why doesn't the Council trust me? Because I'm working for Cerberus Why am I working for Cerberus? Because the Council doesn't trust me. Why doesn't the Council Trust me? Why should I trust the council? They don't care about humans. Cerberus does Why should I trust the Alliance? They never cared. Cerberus does Why I'm I working with Cerberus? Because I can't trust the Alliance and council See, your line of thinking isn't as circular as Bioware's
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Post by Vortex13 on Nov 7, 2016 17:49:00 GMT
Except Sam and Steve are not once seen in a combat situation; as in running, diving behind cover and shooting at enemies. Never said they were. Though if the Leviathan dlc is to be counted, Steve do more than fly the shuttle They're squadmates Steve doesn't do too much during that DLC. Certainly not enough to justify restricting said character slot against an Elcor or Hanar on the basis of utility at any rate. They are still given a presence on the ship though; Liara practically gets an entire section to herself. If we are going to say that Sam and Steve are exempt from the squad mate exception then there still is no reason why they had to human. In fact you could argue that Shepard's role of going around and uniting the galaxy to fight agains the Reapers in a coordinated effort should make it more likely for the ship to acquire non-human crew; what with everyone having to unite and fight alongside each other and all.
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Post by themikefest on Nov 7, 2016 17:53:13 GMT
Steve doesn't do too much during that DLC. Certainly not enough to justify restricting said character slot against an Elcor or Hanar on the basis of utility at any rate. They are still given a presence on the ship though; Liara practically gets an entire section to herself. If we are going to say that Sam and Steve are exempt from the squad mate exception then there still is no reason why they had to human. In fact you could argue that Shepard's role of going around and uniting the galaxy to fight agains the Reapers in a coordinated effort should make it more likely for the ship to acquire non-human crew; what with everyone having to unite and fight alongside each other and all. Word it however you want. You're incorrect that Steve spent 99% of the game standing around talking
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Post by Vortex13 on Nov 7, 2016 18:39:35 GMT
Steve doesn't do too much during that DLC. Certainly not enough to justify restricting said character slot against an Elcor or Hanar on the basis of utility at any rate. They are still given a presence on the ship though; Liara practically gets an entire section to herself. If we are going to say that Sam and Steve are exempt from the squad mate exception then there still is no reason why they had to human. In fact you could argue that Shepard's role of going around and uniting the galaxy to fight agains the Reapers in a coordinated effort should make it more likely for the ship to acquire non-human crew; what with everyone having to unite and fight alongside each other and all. Word it however you want. You're incorrect that Steve spent 99% of the game standing around talking Okay, maybe 95% of the time then. Practically every single conversation you have with Steve in person he is either standing behind his console in the hanger, or sitting in the pilot's chair of the shuttle. Even when you talk to him on the Citadel in the base game, and get to choose whether to initiate a romance with him or not, he's just standing there overlooking the dance floor not actually moving around.
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Post by CrutchCricket on Nov 7, 2016 18:48:09 GMT
I don't think anyone will disagree that ME3 was horribly railroaded. But that doesn't mean ME2 wasn't as well. The whole Alliance and Council holding the idiot ball was a stupid, railroaded way to force Shepard to "work for the bad guys" because DAMMIT THAT'S WHAT WE WANT TO HAPPEN! Regardless of what logical contortions they have to go through to make it happen. Why doesn't the Council trust me? Because I'm working for Cerberus Why am I working for Cerberus? Because the Council doesn't trust me. Why doesn't the Council Trust me? No I think the real seed that started it all was the suicide mission mechanic. They wanted the big "anyone can die" mission but didn't want to sacrifice their precious ME1 squadmates. So everything in ME2 is meant to be disposable. Which means we can't still be Alliance/Council because their people aren't expendable. But Cerberus or random rogues from around the galaxy? Sure, why not? Problem is of course, a lot of the stuff introduced in ME2 is liked better than ME1. And ME2 is still better for roleplaying because despite the fact that we weren't supposed to get attached/agree with Cerberus, we still can. They allowed us to do more that wasn't according to plan back then. And where are the options to tell this to the VS? Where can I tell them "I've been to the Council and talked to Anderson. They don't like it but they're letting me work with Cerberus. I'm even a Spectre again!" Where can I give them the information Shepard gained from Freedom's Progress? When can I tell them Tali vouches for me? Or Joker? Or Chakwas? The meeting with the VS was nothing but railroaded drama. Yes but it was all for the greater good of saving them for ME3, don't you see? That way they could be full squad again instead of being sidelined due to poor planning and writing... oh... right... no, they fucked that up too.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
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Post by Iakus on Nov 7, 2016 18:53:49 GMT
I don't think anyone will disagree that ME3 was horribly railroaded. But that doesn't mean ME2 wasn't as well. The whole Alliance and Council holding the idiot ball was a stupid, railroaded way to force Shepard to "work for the bad guys" because DAMMIT THAT'S WHAT WE WANT TO HAPPEN! Regardless of what logical contortions they have to go through to make it happen. Why doesn't the Council trust me? Because I'm working for Cerberus Why am I working for Cerberus? Because the Council doesn't trust me. Why doesn't the Council Trust me? No I think the real seed that started it all was the suicide mission mechanic. They wanted the big "anyone can die" mission but didn't want to sacrifice their precious ME1 squadmates. So everything in ME2 is meant to be disposable. Which means we can't still be Alliance/Council because their people aren't expendable. But Cerberus or random rogues from around the galaxy? Sure, why not? Problem is of course, a lot of the stuff introduced in ME2 is liked better than ME1. And ME2 is still better for roleplaying because despite the fact that we weren't supposed to get attached/agree with Cerberus, we still can. They allowed us to do more that wasn't according to plan back then. And where are the options to tell this to the VS? Where can I tell them "I've been to the Council and talked to Anderson. They don't like it but they're letting me work with Cerberus. I'm even a Spectre again!" Where can I give them the information Shepard gained from Freedom's Progress? When can I tell them Tali vouches for me? Or Joker? Or Chakwas? The meeting with the VS was nothing but railroaded drama. Yes but it was all for the greater good of saving them for ME3, don't you see? That way they could be full squad again instead of being sidelined due to poor planning and writing... oh... right... no, they fucked that up too. Not once did I say I wanted the VS to join the crew. I'm fine with them not being available. What I have a problem with is the meeting with the VS being railroaded into being a tense, rancorous confrontation where they are convinced Shepard is a traitor when Shepard A) may not be and has plenty of opportunity and intelligence to share with the VS that could put them at ease. I'm probably in the minority, but I think the scenes on Mars in ME3 handle things BETTER than Horizon. There they seem to think that Shepard may be an imposter, or controlled by the cybernetics. Those are reasons I can get behind for being suspicious.
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Nov 7, 2016 19:36:05 GMT
No I pointed to the social impact of a AAA game having and allowing a homosexual relationship to be so openly displayed and refuses to fall to any stereotypes. Ranking right up there with the Korra/Asami pairing at the end of Legend of Korra. A step forward for a group that when this game came out wasn't even allowed to be married. At least in USA because people cherry picked what they want out of a book. And their respective stories add to the over all. A person struggling with the loss of a loved one and book worm thrust into the very center of conflict for their very existence. Your quote doesn't make any sense because I assume it is a part of a larger quote that you edited out. Without proper context all that comes across as incoherent jumble of words. It sounds like you are trying to talk about a computer virus. But you ignore that computer viruses are not conscious entities. They are literally programed to behave a certain way by their creator. They are more akin to cells. Who are programed to have only one purpose and one action. In fact Again though your quote lacks necessary context to make the point you want to make. Because your set up sounds a lot like the infamous Morris Worm of 1988. Self replicating computer program that due to it's programing spread uncontrollably across the early internet infecting 10% of all computers connected to it. And Mass Effect is a science fiction setting, I would like to see some actual sci-fi once in a while. Yeah we get more representation for homosexuals, but any serious attempt at 'alien' elements has seen even less representation in all mainstream media. I mean if we are going to weigh which minority 'deserves' more screen time due to previous depictions of it then I would say that the non-human elements need it far more than any human outliers. And yes the quote is from a larger source, the novel Blindsight, but the whole point behind it was that here we have a non-human intelligence, with wants and desires vastly different from our own, and yet it is understandable to the audience. It sounds like programing talk because that the best way to represent this alien in terms the character talking to Sacha can understand. The Scramblers from this book are aliens with vast intelligence yet they posses no consciousness. This fundamental difference from how we humans experience things is what makes them so compelling as aliens and why they require such a logical breakdown in the quote I used. Vast intelligence without any consciousness is a contradiction. And not just because it is alien. Consciousness is formed from thought. This is the difference between a jellyfish and a goldfish. A jellyfish is simply a series of bundles of nerves that react to stimuli. A goldfish has an actual mind and is capable of thinking at least in a very limited sense. Guided mostly by instinct but as Mythbusters showed are actually capable of being trained. Be it in a very very limited way. In fact that set up is the basis of nearly all debate both in sci-fi and real world about AI and what is the key difference between a very smart machine that is capable of solving complex puzzles and a human who is also capable of solving the same complex puzzle. When you brought up this I figured you would bring up a decent example like the Crystalline Entity from the Start Trek Next Generation. A massive being so different from what is normally considered a life form. Who's only method of sustain it self involves draining planets of their life energies. Or what ever it is they used as what it absorbs. Who do to it's very nature isn't aware of what it's actions cause or capable of seeing anything else besides a source of food. Until the Enterprise manages to make contact with it in the most basic way allowing it to see them as more then just a food supply. Least till the angry lady destroys it.
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Post by themikefest on Nov 7, 2016 21:00:00 GMT
Not once did I say I wanted the VS to join the crew. I'm fine with them not being available. It would've made things interesting if the VS could've been a squadmate in ME2 The beginning of it was fine, but when the word Cerberus was mentioned, it got out of hand. That's when the VS becomes closed minded and starts assuming something about Cerberus that wasn't correct. At that point, I would've put in a renegade interrupt to smack them upside of the head just to knock some sense in them. But that doesn't happen. Of course it doesn't help that Commander Dumba** gives a pathetic explanation. Now I've mentioned before, how different, if it would be different, would the scene of been if Liara mentioned that Shepard's body was handed over to Cerberus? Don't know. You might be. The problem with that is it should never of happened. Had the VS talked with Shepard during the 6 months, none of that would've happened.
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Post by straykat on Nov 7, 2016 21:35:33 GMT
It's particularly annoying that Shep and Jack are labrat super soldiers (Shep with or without Akuze).. and the VS somehow gets so self-righteous like this is suddenly their big cause now. Like they're Cerberus Enemy #1. They did a couple side missions at best and think they matter.
They could have at least given some options along this line for Shep.. The VS doesn't have a pot to piss in, in comparison. And if Shep can still realize they need Cerberus, it should make the VS stop and think for just a second. Because a second is all it takes.
Hell, even James has more to be angry about. He lost his crew due to a Cerberus infiltrator.
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