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Post by Steelcan on Jun 26, 2017 0:50:58 GMT
the problem isn't that Alec hired a reckless, not by the book, kind guy like Liam. Liam's problem is that he's an uninteresting repeat of a well trodden cliche. I dunno. He sounds exactly like Garrus Garrus is also a well worn cliche, but he at least had some solid development later in the franchise, and is significantly darker than many people give him credit for
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Post by Qui-Gon GlenN7 on Jun 26, 2017 3:20:40 GMT
I dunno. He sounds exactly like Garrus Garrus is also a well worn cliche, but he at least had some solid development later in the franchise, and is significantly darker than many people give him credit for This. If you let him kill his enemies, he really appreciates it, and reminds you. I usually play mostly Paragon, but I was a Ruthless this last time, and that meant 50/50 and Garrus got real dark. Felt guilty
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Post by gplayer on Jun 26, 2017 14:11:59 GMT
The initiative has many people with shady backgrounds. SAM says Sloane has a "nearly spotless record" but then follows it with saying she had multiple incidents with superior officers. Thats not 'nearly spotless'.
The way I explain it is that they did not want to have vetted people for the initiative since they were not creating a new world in Andromeda, but a semi-new one. You arrive 14 months after the Nexus so they can set up the cluster for you, and hence you only end up with 3 angara only worlds, only one of which has a complete map (Voeld). To create the same range of characters (the noble, the scoundrel, the dreamer, the by the book...etc) they draw it from the initiative. So you get people like Liam, Sloane, Spender, Reyes and so on who would have never made the cut if there was any kind of real screening going on. They all seem like bad apples as opposed to apples that went bad in Andromeda - because its less effort to write it that way.
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Post by griffith82 on Jun 26, 2017 14:38:51 GMT
They do though, they're both poorly written. Are you a former Bioware employee who was fired for being useless? I'm just trying to work out why you continue to bother. Nah he's a former Titus employee who can't stand other companies can make good games lol.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 26, 2017 14:57:05 GMT
Yeah, Cora and Liam don't seem to have anything in common. They do though, they're both poorly written. 1 dimensional maybe. Cora just whines about what Sarissa would do and why she feels abandoned while Liam is a fucking dumbass who just doesn't seem anything remotely close to being an ex cop or responder. I really had hopes that he'd be the world weary type but nope. Total fuckhead cunt. I wish Gil or that STG guy were part of the party instead. Just someone who isn't an annoying happy go lucky bitch.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 26, 2017 15:31:39 GMT
They do though, they're both poorly written. 1 dimensional maybe. Cora just whines about what Sarissa would do and why she feels abandoned while Liam is a fucking dumbass who just doesn't seem anything remotely close to being an ex cop or responder. I really had hopes that he'd be the world weary type but nope. Total fuckhead cunt. I wish Gil or that STG guy were part of the party instead. Just someone who isn't an annoying happy go lucky bitch. I"ve been replaying sections of the game as I go along... making different dialogue decisions and switching up the order I do things in... just to see how each of the NPCs responds differently. These characters are anything but one dimensional. People are basing their assessments on one playthrough and even very short trial palythroughs. The reality is that it takes more than one playthrough with an effort to play differently in each one to get to realize just how many possible dimensions there are to each one. Of course, you can keep your opinion... I simply don't care. I'm finding enough depth to this game that it's going to keep me happily busy with it for months.
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Post by R1Outcast on Jun 26, 2017 15:50:10 GMT
But still, he was suspended a dozen times in two years. That's a huge amount of suspensions. That's a suspension every two months for two years straight. Dreamers and explorers are one thing, but this is someone who couldn't even follow basic rules. It's important to remember that throughout history, actual pathfinders in any given field have broken and stretched rules to achieve noble goals. From a game standpoint, Alec himself was kicked out of N7 for not following the rules.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 26, 2017 15:50:59 GMT
1 dimensional maybe. Cora just whines about what Sarissa would do and why she feels abandoned while Liam is a fucking dumbass who just doesn't seem anything remotely close to being an ex cop or responder. I really had hopes that he'd be the world weary type but nope. Total fuckhead cunt. I wish Gil or that STG guy were part of the party instead. Just someone who isn't an annoying happy go lucky bitch. I"ve been replaying sections of the game as I go along... making different dialogue decisions and switching up the order I do things in... just to see how each of the NPCs responds differently. These characters are anything but one dimensional. People are basing their assessments on one playthrough and even very short trial palythroughs. The reality is that it takes more than one playthrough with an effort to play differently in each one to get to realize just how many possible dimensions there are to each one. Of course, you can keep your opinion... I simply don't care. I'm finding enough depth to this game that it's going to keep me happily busy with it for months. I'm on my third playthrough myself. My previous one saw me romance Cora and I've taken both options with Lima on the prior two (supportive in first, disciplinary in second). Cora still comes off as one dimensional and Liam still comes across as an incompetent manchild who has no business in such a position. One thing I wish I saw more of from him (other than intelligence and maturity) was some fire. I like when he and Ryder get in each other's faces after berating him post loyalty mission. That's the only time he felt like a real person. Cora's flaws are more like she's built up to be this special and unique squadmate but both Miranda and Jack do both facets of her (second in command/biotic savant) far better and the fact that she's a biotic is highlighted as if she's the only one in the Initiative who isn't an asari, yet the Ryder family can all use those abilities (it's hinted that Alec had one such profile). Vetra too feels one dimensional at times (MUH SISTER) and just lacks any edge that the Milky Way squadmates had. We could use more guys and gals with a chip on their shoulder in the squad. I want a Bain Massani or an Evfra.
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Post by warrior on Jun 26, 2017 16:13:37 GMT
I dunno. He sounds exactly like Garrus Garrus is also a well worn cliche, but he at least had some solid development later in the franchise, and is significantly darker than many people give him credit for Killing Sidonis is a very dark moment for Garrus. As are your conversations with him about it. Especially if you try to talk to Sidonis long enough for Garrus to hear his side and regret--and he doesn't even waver in his intent. In the first playthrough I convinced him to spare him, but in my second I let him talk and then just said "I can't help you." I looked at Garrus a little differently after that...
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Post by Deleted on Jun 26, 2017 16:43:47 GMT
I"ve been replaying sections of the game as I go along... making different dialogue decisions and switching up the order I do things in... just to see how each of the NPCs responds differently. These characters are anything but one dimensional. People are basing their assessments on one playthrough and even very short trial palythroughs. The reality is that it takes more than one playthrough with an effort to play differently in each one to get to realize just how many possible dimensions there are to each one. Of course, you can keep your opinion... I simply don't care. I'm finding enough depth to this game that it's going to keep me happily busy with it for months. I'm on my third playthrough myself. My previous one saw me romance Cora and I've taken both options with Lima on the prior two (supportive in first, disciplinary in second). Cora still comes off as one dimensional and Liam still comes across as an incompetent manchild who has no business in such a position. One thing I wish I saw more of from him (other than intelligence and maturity) was some fire. I like when he and Ryder get in each other's faces after berating him post loyalty mission. That's the only time he felt like a real person. Cora's flaws are more like she's built up to be this special and unique squadmate but both Miranda and Jack do both facets of her (second in command/biotic savant) far better and the fact that she's a biotic is highlighted as if she's the only one in the Initiative who isn't an asari, yet the Ryder family can all use those abilities (it's hinted that Alec had one such profile). Vetra too feels one dimensional at times (MUH SISTER) and just lacks any edge that the Milky Way squadmates had. We could use more guys and gals with a chip on their shoulder in the squad. I want a Bain Massani or an Evfra. As I said, you can hold to your opinion... that's your prerogative. I'm discovering a level of depth in these characters that is, quite frankly, surprising me. They are made up of little bits and pieces of people I've actually known rather than being so storied "perfect"... and I like that.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 26, 2017 16:49:08 GMT
Alec is like any typical PC in an RPG. We always have ragtag companions that no one would logically hire, but they bring more to the mission than a bunch of people following rules, and are usually the ones who save the world with the chosen one.
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Post by colfoley on Jun 26, 2017 19:35:08 GMT
Say what you will about liam and cora at least they are better written then liara or jack.
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Post by gplayer on Jun 27, 2017 2:10:21 GMT
I was upset there was no option to get rid of Liam by way of Virmire (The Moshae op was perfect opportunity). But then I realized the game does not even let you kill vermin raiding the cereal store in the galley.
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Post by colfoley on Jun 27, 2017 2:22:47 GMT
I was upset there was no option to get rid of Liam by way of Virmire (The Moshae op was perfect opportunity). But then I realized the game does not even let you kill vermin raiding the cereal store in the galley. It does let you exterminate the creature chewing on the wiring.
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Post by themikefest on Jun 27, 2017 2:39:35 GMT
Standards must have been lowered for Liam to become a cop. He's more like a keystone cop. I would be curious what Alec would have done when finding out the cop gave Nexus data and nav-points to an angaran
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Post by Kaidan Fan on Jun 27, 2017 2:46:35 GMT
What?? The guy who was blacklisted for researching and developing illegal AI hired someone who is a rule breaker?!
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Post by colfoley on Jun 27, 2017 2:48:54 GMT
Standards must have been lowered for Liam to become a cop. He's more like a keystone cop. I would be curious what Alec would have done when finding out the cop gave Nexus data and nav-points to an angaran Probably the same thing Ryder can do but more forceful and experienced about it.
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Post by Fen'Harel Faceman on Jun 27, 2017 3:23:41 GMT
Are you a former Bioware employee who was fired for being useless? I'm just trying to work out why you continue to bother. I've explained why countless times. Mainly though it's because I know how easily you're triggered.
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Post by SwobyJ on Jun 27, 2017 15:28:38 GMT
Anyways Alec Ryder explains his hirng process in his speech on Ark Hyperion before you leave. He says he wants dreamers, explorers, people who push the edge of the map. But, I think its better to say he wants Dreamers, as in builders. People who want to build a better future. Discounting the really minor characters on the team that did not make the squad later, Grier, Kirkland, etc, and also excluding the Ryder siblings...since their motivations for joining the iniative is ultimatley left up to the player...Cora and Liam settle this archetype. Liam wants to build the future in more of a meta sense, being really philosophical about it, he wants to see everyone works together. Cora is more practical about it. Building a guarden, a foundation, and seeing it grow is her modus operndai. Its really quite...in your face when you think about it. But still, he was suspended a dozen times in two years. That's a huge amount of suspensions. That's a suspension every two months for two years straight. Dreamers and explorers are one thing, but this is someone who couldn't even follow basic rules. And Alec is the guy dishonorably discharged. Basic rules huh. He may have qualified for N7 and had an adventure, but he prioritizes ideals. He's willing to take an otherwise capable idealist. Clearly wanted to form both Cora (who is more the capable cynic) and Liam (who is more the incapable idealist) (both are at least somewhat capable and somewhat idealist), into future roles. Cora more overtly as qualified Pathfinder, but Liam for anything he finds himself finally fitting into. Remember that Initiative wasn't really expecting this level of disaster. In terms of writing, notice the rest of the Pathfinder team? Oh right, they died or QUIT. Liam, as we see, doesn't quit what he believes in if he thinks that's the right path. (Of course this means he can have his view shattered and he jumps for elsewhere, but its really hard to shake him until that point.) This is necessary in a project like this. I hate defending Liam but I can understand him happening at the start. I just wish this game was more structured so I could kick him off at some point. Because for as much as I think he fits concepts in the game, he's like Sera in DAI where I'd still at least like the option to give him the deserved boot. The concept of the Ai is that it *doesn't* follow basic rules, in the name of a greater, and many may say impractical vision. You think Bioware didn't realize the easy critique that going to Andromeda 'makes no sense'? Its to prove that it does, at least a little, and in that little, it can mean a lot. The theme goes for many things that happen in MEA. Including the choice to put Liam on the team. To be fair, he's only *part* of a team. A team that he isn't leader of, a team that is wrecked, and a team he is primarily 'crisis response' of - and he largely does that well in Habitat 7 and perhaps would have done almost as good as Scott/Sara if Scott/Sara was not there. (No, shooting a kett corpse didn't endanger the mission.) His only big freakout is on his Loyalty because everything is compandingly wrong, and his big fault is that he's too brash to properly plan and lead. Well he's not supposed to set up grand plans and lead. He's supposed to be the one taking personal initiative to make short-term crisis work out. He does that in many cases. He's part mascot (one can laugh but Ai is more about making a home than saving an existing one) and part initiative part of Initiative. Yeah he's no superhero. He's no leader (ATM). He's no perfectly composed stronghuman (which all or nearly all other human squadmates in ME might be considered in some sense). But he's actually the one most doing what the Initiative is meant for. Cora is doing more what keeps it running and growing, yes. Liam is the one that keeps proving to me that he's trying to make the vision of the Ai persist. So I'm really not confused about Alec wanting him. The dream of the Ai isn't what Alec dreamed either, but he is one of the biggest that bought into it, as crazy fantasy of an elite it was, and he'd want others to as well. (This is the game that tries to offer some defense of idealism like DAI tried to offer some defense of theology and spirituality.) The Ai was planning to do this thing over years, decades with the same people. The setup was likely more that Alec leads the team, trains successor(s), older members age out, newer members operate under the now-experienced non-Alec members, etc. This is not, say, Suicide Mission of 'best of the best' (to strike one place hard), or Reaper War of 'the best soldiers'. I think we should keep this is in mind. Its closer to a mix of the previous two games (aka really good people at least), ME1 (aka a less urgent journey than what may come later), and something more new (the longer term colonization effort). Liam's to help out people in a badly urgent situation and to otherwise keep himself busy working to prevent badly urgent situations. Nothing elite required there, just provable skillset, which he has, and a belief to stick to the Ai, which he does (and I think most recruits for the Ai are tested for this, which is why there had to be some silly reasons added for why so many violent exiles).
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Post by SwobyJ on Jun 27, 2017 15:34:28 GMT
I just head canoned that there weren't many well-grounded people in the Milky Way who (a) had the kinds of skills they were after and ( wanted to go on a one way trip to Andromeda just 'cause. Hence most of the team are misfits in one way or another. Better a guy who struggles to follow rules than a psycho who'll flip out and wreck your ship. #glasshalffull Yes there is a point in the game (so far; no DLC) and comics (so far; Issue #1) that the Ai may have people flocking to it in the thousands (which isn't actually so many in the galaxy, but its big for any more singular exploration or colonization task), it doesn't exactly have the pick of everyone. In contrast, ME1's group had an aspect of being really good but in many ways lucking into things (more typical Bioware setup), and ME2's group was more specifically pinpointed by Cerberus (for most part), and ME3's group was part of a decimated galaxy but otherwise experienced from the past or picked up with authority of the Alliance/Council Space/Galaxy. The Ai is organized and incredibly supported, but its not elite in itself. It cannot go to the best fighter, or best access to someone, and say "Yes you're coming with us and you will/must agree." (though granted, Shepard often had to do quite a lot to personally convince people) So they vetted on relevant skills and belief in the cause. Because without relevant skills you may as well be replaced (minimal requirement), and without belief in the cause get ready for tons of fracturing as things get worse, or even better (lax approach on order).
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Post by SwobyJ on Jun 27, 2017 15:41:29 GMT
Yeah, Cora and Liam don't seem to have anything in common. Cora was point blank told she should leave Talein's Daughters. Liam kept getting suspended. Neither one really fit in. The only difference was that Cora essentially deluded herself... putting her old squad onto a pedestal... so much better than herself and Liam didn't. Alec seems to have recruited people he thought were capable, but who were being treated as outsiders... much like himself. Bingo. That's the whole thing in a nutshell. They're good enough to do this thing, but not great enough to instantly fix all problems. They're insider enough to make the project happen, but outsider enough to dare to go on the project itself. Without such prospect of imminent extinction as the MET group had more of. They had to take *initiative* for something, even if not be some grand masterminds or manipulators or whatever themselves.
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Post by SwobyJ on Jun 27, 2017 15:46:43 GMT
But still, he was suspended a dozen times in two years. That's a huge amount of suspensions. That's a suspension every two months for two years straight. Dreamers and explorers are one thing, but this is someone who couldn't even follow basic rules. It's important to remember that throughout history, actual pathfinders in any given field have broken and stretched rules to achieve noble goals. From a game standpoint, Alec himself was kicked out of N7 for not following the rules. They're the ones that bother to explore. For better or worse.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 27, 2017 17:05:25 GMT
Cora was point blank told she should leave Talein's Daughters. Liam kept getting suspended. Neither one really fit in. The only difference was that Cora essentially deluded herself... putting her old squad onto a pedestal... so much better than herself and Liam didn't. Alec seems to have recruited people he thought were capable, but who were being treated as outsiders... much like himself. Bingo. That's the whole thing in a nutshell. They're good enough to do this thing, but not great enough to instantly fix all problems. They're insider enough to make the project happen, but outsider enough to dare to go on the project itself. Without such prospect of imminent extinction as the MET group had more of. They had to take *initiative* for something, even if not be some grand masterminds or manipulators or whatever themselves. I'm also going to add to this "outsider" idea based on an inscription in game that appears on Mithrava (right next to a point where a memory trigger is found - and I'm certain that's not a coincidence) "The rest o four people have always mocked and despised us. When Jephro decided we would live apart from them, we needed to be safe. Maraaan was able to use what she knew of Remnant to find us a home here, on the construct we called Mithrava - "sanctuary."
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Post by suikoden on Jun 27, 2017 17:18:02 GMT
1 dimensional maybe. Cora just whines about what Sarissa would do and why she feels abandoned while Liam is a fucking dumbass who just doesn't seem anything remotely close to being an ex cop or responder. I really had hopes that he'd be the world weary type but nope. Total fuckhead cunt. I wish Gil or that STG guy were part of the party instead. Just someone who isn't an annoying happy go lucky bitch. I"ve been replaying sections of the game as I go along... making different dialogue decisions and switching up the order I do things in... just to see how each of the NPCs responds differently. These characters are anything but one dimensional. People are basing their assessments on one playthrough and even very short trial palythroughs. The reality is that it takes more than one playthrough with an effort to play differently in each one to get to realize just how many possible dimensions there are to each one. Of course, you can keep your opinion... I simply don't care. I'm finding enough depth to this game that it's going to keep me happily busy with it for months. The story isn't engaging/interesting enough to warrent additional play througs for me - if it was I'd probably appreciate multiple dialogue choices, provided they had a different tone from that which was used for this entire game.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 27, 2017 17:22:07 GMT
I"ve been replaying sections of the game as I go along... making different dialogue decisions and switching up the order I do things in... just to see how each of the NPCs responds differently. These characters are anything but one dimensional. People are basing their assessments on one playthrough and even very short trial palythroughs. The reality is that it takes more than one playthrough with an effort to play differently in each one to get to realize just how many possible dimensions there are to each one. Of course, you can keep your opinion... I simply don't care. I'm finding enough depth to this game that it's going to keep me happily busy with it for months. The story isn't engaging/interesting enough to warrent additional play througs for me - if it was I'd probably appreciate multiple dialogue choices, provided they had a different tone from that which was used for this entire game. You haven't even played through once, so where do you get off implying "additional play throughs?" By your own account on other threads, you've played at total of 10 hours. So, I'll repeat... You can keep your opinion... i simply don'T care... particularly in your case.
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