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Post by Rascoth on Jun 5, 2017 14:05:21 GMT
*sigh* ya barely. What is it, one line? Fenris and Anders mention your mage status way more. Sebastian actually talks about turning you in! Well, indirectly. He talks about turning Anders and MErril in, but all of that would obviously include Hawke. The biggest acknowledgement was in Inquisition, when Hawke said that she is not a Vicountess any more because the Templars became suspicious about her, and she had to go on a run. I don't know if that's what a non-Mage says. Iirc, non-mage Hawke says the same.
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Post by phoray on Jun 5, 2017 14:21:40 GMT
The biggest acknowledgement was in Inquisition, when Hawke said that she is not a Vicountess any more because the Templars became suspicious about her, and she had to go on a run. I don't know if that's what a non-Mage says. Iirc, non-mage Hawke says the same. yaaa... but it makes no sense as a non mage Hawke. And the comment about Carver needing to be far away from everything if he's a Warden makes crystal clear sense. But if Carver is a Templar, ur like, "wat m8?" That he wouldn't be part of the mage templar war makes sense, but why wouldn't he then be with the other Templars getting tricked into Red Lyrium?
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Post by Rascoth on Jun 5, 2017 14:26:59 GMT
Iirc, non-mage Hawke says the same. yaaa... but it makes no sense as a non mage Hawke. And the comment about Carver needing to be far away from everything if he's a Warden makes crystal clear sense. But if Carver is a Templar, ur like, "wat m8?" That he wouldn't be part of the mage templar war makes sense, but why wouldn't he then be with the other Templars getting tricked into Red Lyrium? Templars in Kirkwall started to take red lyrium, which made them paranoid, probably as much as Meredith. So tbh, it makes sense. Even non-mage Hawke a) was aquainted with mages comes from family with apostated. For paranoid red templars it would be enough to turn on him/her. And red lyrium shit also would explain why Hawke would want templar Carver as far away as possible. No way Hawke's letting little bro get dragged into redy lyrium business (mind you, Carver is smart enough to avoid it, but who knows what kind of trick higher-ups used).
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Post by opuspace on Jun 5, 2017 14:32:56 GMT
I don't think the writers are even aware of these flaws. I remember Solas telling her "It is a difficult path, Seeker, but if anyone can walk it honorably, you can", so she is pretty much portrayed as a beacon of virtue. I think that may be why I've grown increasingly frustrated with her getting away with certain things she shouldn't. It gives me the sense that I'm supposed to love her without question when she's done some things that are appalling. Her idea of rebuilding the Seekers is based on the idea of what feels right to her. No strong set of rules to prevent abuse of interpretation. And that can go so horrifyingly wrong. She's willing to tell complete strangers who enter the Seeker organization but keep the secret of Tranquility AGAIN from the mages who rebelled in the first place because of the secret being hoarded. This is the mages' decision to deal with; They're the affected the most by this and yet she's already repeating the same mistakes her predecessor made.
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Post by Catilina on Jun 5, 2017 14:39:51 GMT
Iirc, non-mage Hawke says the same. yaaa... but it makes no sense as a non mage Hawke. And the comment about Carver needing to be far away from everything if he's a Warden makes crystal clear sense. But if Carver is a Templar, ur like, "wat m8?" That he wouldn't be part of the mage templar war makes sense, but why wouldn't he then be with the other Templars getting tricked into Red Lyrium? The Templars are stupid untrustworthy assholes, this is the most prominent proof of it. That also clearly shows that the only good solution is to support Mages, and destroy this stupid, paranoid junkie Order.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 5, 2017 15:00:09 GMT
I don't think the writers are even aware of these flaws. I remember Solas telling her "It is a difficult path, Seeker, but if anyone can walk it honorably, you can", so she is pretty much portrayed as a beacon of virtue. I think that may be why I've grown increasingly frustrated with her getting away with certain things she shouldn't. It gives me the sense that I'm supposed to love her without question when she's done some things that are appalling. Her idea of rebuilding the Seekers is based on the idea of what feels right to her. No strong set of rules to prevent abuse of interpretation. And that can go so horrifyingly wrong. She's willing to tell complete strangers who enter the Seeker organization but keep the secret of Tranquility AGAIN from the mages who rebelled in the first place because of the secret being hoarded. This is the mages' decision to deal with; They're the affected the most by this and yet she's already repeating the same mistakes her predecessor made. What secret of Tranquility? I feel that Cassandra is similar to any of the protagonists in the games, tbh, do some weird stuff, just because.
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Post by opuspace on Jun 5, 2017 15:07:00 GMT
What secret of Tranquility? I feel that Cassandra is similar to any of the protagonists in the games, tbh, do some weird stuff, just because. That there was a cure for Tranquility. It happens in the discussion with her after she finds out Lord Seeker Lucius's reasoning for betraying the Seeker Order. I believe she'd have tried leading the reformed Seekers as best she could and that for a while it would work as the endings say but given time down the road and her passed away? Solas did mention how organizations are prone towards becoming something different from the original intent.
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Post by Rascoth on Jun 5, 2017 15:11:22 GMT
What secret of Tranquility? I feel that Cassandra is similar to any of the protagonists in the games, tbh, do some weird stuff, just because. That there was a cure for Tranquility. It happens in the discussion with her after she finds out Lord Seeker Lucius's reasoning for betraying the Seeker Order. But... mages knew about the cure before DAI.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 5, 2017 15:13:23 GMT
What secret of Tranquility? I feel that Cassandra is similar to any of the protagonists in the games, tbh, do some weird stuff, just because. That there was a cure for Tranquility. It happens in the discussion with her after she finds out Lord Seeker Lucius's reasoning for betraying the Seeker Order. I believe she'd have tried leading the reformed Seekers as best she could and that for a while it would work as the endings say but given time down the road and her passed away? Solas did mention how organizations are prone towards becoming something different from the original intent. Oh, good. At least Anders did not live to find that one out, poor soul. I am in favour of collegial descisions and organizations over the shiny role of an uncorruptible and unfailable individual or one with the unique moral compass that's the only guy who knows what's right, so I disagree with Solas in his little speech. Kindda why I like the games with the party structure vs a lone hero. I don't believe or drool over the lone heroes striking against corrupted behemoths of evil organizations.
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Post by opuspace on Jun 5, 2017 15:14:25 GMT
That there was a cure for Tranquility. It happens in the discussion with her after she finds out Lord Seeker Lucius's reasoning for betraying the Seeker Order. But... mages knew about the cure before DAI. How many though? Especially after the slaughter during the Mage/Templar war when the Seekers led the crackdown to try to suppress the knowledge. That they would attempt it in the first place makes it sound like not enough know for it to be common knowledge
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Post by opuspace on Jun 5, 2017 15:18:36 GMT
That there was a cure for Tranquility. It happens in the discussion with her after she finds out Lord Seeker Lucius's reasoning for betraying the Seeker Order. I believe she'd have tried leading the reformed Seekers as best she could and that for a while it would work as the endings say but given time down the road and her passed away? Solas did mention how organizations are prone towards becoming something different from the original intent. Oh, good. At least Anders did not live to find that one out, poor soul. I am in favour of collegial descisions and organizations over the shiny role of an uncorruptible and unfailable individual or one with the unique moral compass that's the only guy who knows what's right, so I disagree with Solas in his little speech. Kindda why I like the games with the party structure vs a lone hero. I don't believe or drool over the lone heroes striking against corrupted behemoths of evil organizations. That's why I think she should be sharing the information with mages about the cure for Tranquility. Cassandra being the sole arbiter in a role as a morally incorruptible leader is already off to a bad start with her lying and disrespect of other beliefs.
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Post by phoray on Jun 5, 2017 15:22:15 GMT
But... mages knew about the cure before DAI. How many though? Especially after the slaughter during the Mage/Templar war when the Seekers led the crackdown to try to suppress the knowledge. That they would attempt it in the first place makes it sound like not enough know for it to be common knowledge Shale/Wynne had this info instantaneously spread to literally all of the mages towers at once via the same Crystal Dorian uses to talk to the Inquisitor. Except on a massive scale tied to all Circle Towers. They couldn't hide what everyone knew, that was the point of doing that Act. The only way they could hide it is by annuling all the Circles, if they had the evil balls to do it. But only some Templar commanders hated mages enough to go that route. Then there was all out anarchy, with mages escaping and meeting in the middle of nowhere to finally have a vote about their independence. At least among the mages, it should be mostly common knowledge. That's why Cass's conversation, especially with a Ex Circle Mage Quiz, makes little sense UNLESS you think about what was told to everyone. What All the Circles learned in 'Asunder' was that a Cure had been found. The Divine had ordered the research on the sly without telling the Templars. What Cass learns from her seeker book is that they had the cure all along. And hadn't shared it with anyone. Even the Divine.
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Post by opuspace on Jun 5, 2017 15:24:13 GMT
How many though? Especially after the slaughter during the Mage/Templar war when the Seekers led the crackdown to try to suppress the knowledge. That they would attempt it in the first place makes it sound like not enough know for it to be common knowledge Shale/Wynne had this info instantaneously spread to literally all of the mages towers at once via the same Crystal Dorian uses to talk to the Inquisitor. Except on a massive scale tied to all Circle Towers. They couldn't hide what everyone knew, that was the point of doing that Act. The only way they could hide it is by annuling all the Circles, if they had the evil balls to do it. But only some Templar commanders hated mages enough to go that route. Then there was all out anarchy, with mages escaping and meeting in the middle of nowhere to finally have a vote about their independence. At least among the mages, it should be mostly common knowledge. That's why Cass's conversation, especially with a Ex Circle Mage Quiz, makes little sense UNLESS you think about what was told to everyone. What All the Circles learned in 'Asunder' was that a Cure had been found. The Divine had ordered the research on the sly without telling the Templars. What Cass learns from her seeker book is that they had the cure all along. And hadn't shared it with anyone. Thanks for clearing that up. It's a huge mess sorting through it all.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 5, 2017 15:26:23 GMT
Oh, good. At least Anders did not live to find that one out, poor soul. I am in favour of collegial descisions and organizations over the shiny role of an uncorruptible and unfailable individual or one with the unique moral compass that's the only guy who knows what's right, so I disagree with Solas in his little speech. Kindda why I like the games with the party structure vs a lone hero. I don't believe or drool over the lone heroes striking against corrupted behemoths of evil organizations. That's why I think she should be sharing the information with mages about the cure for Tranquility. Cassandra being the sole arbiter in a role as a morally incorruptible leader is already off to a bad start with her lying and disrespect of other beliefs. Well, Tranquility is better than death, and if you can cure it, then the only recourse is to kill the mages. So making it the common knowledge at the time of an all out war will end up in lots of deaths of mages.
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Post by phoray on Jun 5, 2017 15:28:53 GMT
snip At least among the mages, it should be mostly common knowledge. That's why Cass's conversation, especially with a Ex Circle Mage Quiz, makes little sense UNLESS you think about what was told to everyone. What All the Circles learned in 'Asunder' was that a Cure had been found. The Divine had ordered the research on the sly without telling the Templars. What Cass learns from her seeker book is that they had the cure all along. And hadn't shared it with anyone. Thanks for clearing that up. It's a huge mess sorting through it all. It's a bit confusing. We go from Origins, where even messages "via raven" don't exist and we can't buy a horse so we walk everywhere. To a magical crystal based telephone system that is only mentioned in book and never brought up again...except a little bit, if your befriend/date Dorian and he gives you a crystal magic based cell phone. That he further elaborates is rare? And probably only has because of his Special Tevinter Noble status?
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Post by phoray on Jun 5, 2017 16:04:42 GMT
That's why I think she should be sharing the information with mages about the cure for Tranquility. Cassandra being the sole arbiter in a role as a morally incorruptible leader is already off to a bad start with her lying and disrespect of other beliefs. Well, Tranquility is better than death, and if you can cure it, then the only recourse is to kill the mages. So making it the common knowledge at the time of an all out war will end up in lots of deaths of mages. So, in 2005 all the hospitals in America started putting their unconscious patients at a 45 degree angle at all times, so that they would be less likely to get pneumonia and aspirate. It caused a lot of unnecessary illness and death not to do so. But before 2005, over half the hospitals were kinda ignoring the research. They worried that if they admitted that a lot of death could have been avoided by doing such a small thing, that they would open themselves to lawsuits. My memory is a bit fuzzy, but advocation and a legal "pass" finally got all the hospitals on board. And now lives are being saved. I feel like this mindset applies in this situation. To admit that they could reverse Tranquility would invite heavy thought about whether it should be done at all. So it's best to keep quiet about the information because it betters their situation to do so.
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Post by Iddy on Jun 5, 2017 16:17:22 GMT
Well, Tranquility is better than death, and if you can cure it, then the only recourse is to kill the mages. So making it the common knowledge at the time of an all out war will end up in lots of deaths of mages. So, in 2005 all the hospitals in America started putting their unconscious patients at a 45 degree angle at all times, so that they would be less likely to get pneumonia and aspirate. It caused a lot of unnecessary illness and death not to do so. But before 2005, over half the hospitals were kinda ignoring the research. They worried that if they admitted that a lot of death could have been avoided by doing such a small thing, that they would open themselves to lawsuits. My memory is a bit fuzzy, but advocation and a legal "pass" finally got all the hospitals on board. And now lives are being saved. I feel like this mindset applies in this situation. To admit that they could reverse Tranquility would invite heavy thought about whether it should be done at all. So it's best to keep quiet about the information because it betters their situation to do so. That example rather sounds like an example of why it's a bad idea to hide that kind of information. Things got better after everyone learned that they could save lives by keeping patients at a 45 degree angle.
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Post by phoray on Jun 5, 2017 16:22:05 GMT
So, in 2005 all the hospitals in America started putting their unconscious patients at a 45 degree angle at all times, so that they would be less likely to get pneumonia and aspirate. It caused a lot of unnecessary illness and death not to do so. But before 2005, over half the hospitals were kinda ignoring the research. They worried that if they admitted that a lot of death could have been avoided by doing such a small thing, that they would open themselves to lawsuits. My memory is a bit fuzzy, but advocation and a legal "pass" finally got all the hospitals on board. And now lives are being saved. I feel like this mindset applies in this situation. To admit that they could reverse Tranquility would invite heavy thought about whether it should be done at all. So it's best to keep quiet about the information because it betters their situation to do so. That example rather sounds like an example of why it's a bad idea to hide that kind of information. Things got better after everyone learned that they could save lives by keeping patients at a 45 degree angle. Wasn't arguing that it shouldn't be shared. Was giving a REAL in life example of how "good people" sometimes bury their heads in the sand due to the fear of possible fallout, even when it hurts a lot of people to keep their heads buried.
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Post by Rascoth on Jun 5, 2017 16:32:33 GMT
How many though? Especially after the slaughter during the Mage/Templar war when the Seekers led the crackdown to try to suppress the knowledge. That they would attempt it in the first place makes it sound like not enough know for it to be common knowledge Shale/Wynne had this info instantaneously spread to literally all of the mages towers at once via the same Crystal Dorian uses to talk to the Inquisitor. Except on a massive scale tied to all Circle Towers. They couldn't hide what everyone knew, that was the point of doing that Act. The only way they could hide it is by annuling all the Circles, if they had the evil balls to do it. But only some Templar commanders hated mages enough to go that route. Then there was all out anarchy, with mages escaping and meeting in the middle of nowhere to finally have a vote about their independence. At least among the mages, it should be mostly common knowledge. That's why Cass's conversation, especially with a Ex Circle Mage Quiz, makes little sense UNLESS you think about what was told to everyone. What All the Circles learned in 'Asunder' was that a Cure had been found. The Divine had ordered the research on the sly without telling the Templars. What Cass learns from her seeker book is that they had the cure all along. And hadn't shared it with anyone. Even the Divine. Exactly this. Plus, Cass is right that she needs to research everything Seekers knew about Tranquility before spreading any knowledge. If you think about it, what Seeker candidates and what mages experience with Tranquility is vastly different. With Seekers, you're made Tranquil without your knowledge, you're in that state without being aware and then get cured like nothing happened. Mages on the other hand are aware of whole process and can carry rather heavy emotional baggage after being cured (Pharamond being example of it). It is beneficial to research if there's any way to lessen that emotional burden post-Tranquility.
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Post by phoray on Jun 5, 2017 16:46:11 GMT
Actual confession ish
The real Lord Seeker Luscious was on par with Loghain, Petrice, MEredith as an antagonist and then -- fail. Religious dude goes even nuttier and joins a cult. I was so disappointed in him. He was so worthy of being hated until that moment.
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Post by Rascoth on Jun 5, 2017 16:53:36 GMT
Actual confession ish The real Lord Seeker Luscious was on par with Loghain, Petrice, MEredith as an antagonist and then -- fail. Religious dude goes even nuttier and joins a cult. I was so disappointed in him. He was so worthy of being hated until that moment. I'm still so disappointed with what they did with Meredith. Her potential got squashed with her last appearance. Would really prefer her as antagonist if there was no red lyrium involved. Especially since she was capable of turning against the Circle without it.
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Post by Catilina on Jun 5, 2017 17:00:14 GMT
Actual confession ish The real Lord Seeker Luscious was on par with Loghain, Petrice, MEredith as an antagonist and then -- fail. Religious dude goes even nuttier and joins a cult. I was so disappointed in him. He was so worthy of being hated until that moment. I'm still so disappointed with what they did with Meredith. Her potential got squashed with her last appearance. Would really prefer her as antagonist if there was no red lyrium involved. Especially since she was capable of turning against the Circle without it. Yes. But one thing, what I really like in her fate, that she was capable of such a temptation as a blood mage, and becoming an uncontrollable abomination. I really like templars and seekers, who share the abominations' fate, because they are weaks. No one free from the temptation, and everyone can be dangerous, if weak enough and overconfident. If she turns against the mages without lyrium, she would only an excessively paranoid and cruel woman. But the red lyrium was, what shows: why dangerous is the temptation, mage or not, who tempted. Not mentioned: the whole Thedas about that how dangerous, if a MAGE too weak for resisting the temptation. Meredith's fate proves, that this is not that simple, that the mages are dangerous, the others aren't. Everyone's involved.
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Post by phoray on Jun 5, 2017 18:24:32 GMT
Confession: as I do repeat PTs, I think about not recruiting some people to see what changes. But then Camp feels empty, like I see the spots where Morrigan, Shale, Zevran should have been and feel a bit sad. I think on this as I consider a future PT of Origins where I kill Wynne, refuse Shale and Sten, and tell Zevran to get lost. Talk about a camp that is way too big.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 5, 2017 20:09:31 GMT
Confession: as I do repeat PTs, I think about not recruiting some people to see what changes. But then Camp feels empty, like I see the spots where Morrigan, Shale, Zevran should have been and feel a bit sad. I think on this as I consider a future PT of Origins where I kill Wynne, refuse Shale and Sten, and tell Zevran to get lost. Talk about a camp that is way too big. I see it as the way to better focus on the characters I like. I find that with the amount of content they put in the game now, only focusing on the characters that actually make up your party provides me with a better imitation of closer relationships.
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Post by opuspace on Jun 6, 2017 1:19:23 GMT
Thanks for clearing that up. It's a huge mess sorting through it all. It's a bit confusing. We go from Origins, where even messages "via raven" don't exist and we can't buy a horse so we walk everywhere. To a magical crystal based telephone system that is only mentioned in book and never brought up again...except a little bit, if your befriend/date Dorian and he gives you a crystal magic based cell phone. That he further elaborates is rare? And probably only has because of his Special Tevinter Noble status? It doesn't help that Cassandra is concerned about keeping the cure to Tranquility secret as though not enough people know so it adds to the confusion.
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