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Post by Deleted on Jul 10, 2017 17:53:40 GMT
Morrigan wants to restore the "old ways" and all that, but more importantly: "If the Wilds have taught me anything, 'tis this: first you must survive." She doesn't put any goal above survival, so if Fen'Harel's apocalypse required her to lay down her life, she'd absolutely oppose him. Then there's the idea that Mythal seems essential to Fen'Harel's plans, I wouldn't be surprised if, should Morrigan have drunken from the Well of Sorrows, particularly, she might have a role to play in the whole plan, however, since Flemeth refers to herself during DA2 as a "fly in the ointment", I wouldn't be surprised if she's there as an infiltrator. Without the Well of Sorrows, though, I don't see Morrigan having much of a role in the next game, however. (Shrug) where it comes to Morrigan, logic does not apply. There was no reason at all whatsoever for Morrigan to be in DA3. At all. And yet they backed the player against the wall and held his nose till he swallowed the poison.
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Post by thats1evildude on Jul 10, 2017 18:25:05 GMT
But sich a protagonist could easily become too powerful to handle. Although I wouldn't mind to be able to change into a dragon ... I am not afraid of power. In fact, I find it silly that we grind patiently through 50+ hours of each game, starting with two basic attacks, save every little drop of leather armor, and then stop the game on a mid-level. Here, we actually have epic enough narrative, for better or worse, so I have no qualms about being able to turn into a dragon or shoot lightening out of my sweet b vs ancient elven demigods and seeing regular mobs topple like a house of cards before me. Seriously, I'd swoop through Hinterlands with pleasure to burn anything that moves down. Not likely to happen, since DA is mostly a low-power setting.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 10, 2017 18:41:59 GMT
I am not afraid of power. In fact, I find it silly that we grind patiently through 50+ hours of each game, starting with two basic attacks, save every little drop of leather armor, and then stop the game on a mid-level. Here, we actually have epic enough narrative, for better or worse, so I have no qualms about being able to turn into a dragon or shoot lightening out of my sweet b vs ancient elven demigods and seeing regular mobs topple like a house of cards before me. Seriously, I'd swoop through Hinterlands with pleasure to burn anything that moves down. Not likely to happen, since DA is mostly a low-power setting. Not most recently though. DA3/T played out in beyond the veil, and introduced antagonists that you cannot expect to kill with just a sword & a bow. In DnD analogues we are talking about confronting minor deities.
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Post by thats1evildude on Jul 10, 2017 19:58:37 GMT
Ehhhhhh ... in the high-level echelons of D&D, you're regularly hopping between planes of reality and fighting demons and monsters
Take the Order of the Stick: when they started out, they were running away from goblins. Now their run-of-the-mill mooks are frost giants.
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Post by arvaarad on Jul 10, 2017 20:00:25 GMT
Not likely to happen, since DA is mostly a low-power setting. Not most recently though. DA3/T played out in beyond the veil, and introduced antagonists that you cannot expect to kill with just a sword & a bow. In DnD analogues we are talking about confronting minor deities. I wouldn't expect to kill them with a +20 sword and a +20 bow either. Gods are gods because they're prepared for toe-to-toe combat, even against someone as powerful as another god. When I'm facing a god, that isn't the time for me to send in the fighter, however legendary their weapons. It isn't the time to send in the sorcerer, however much lightning they can shoot out of their fingers. When I'm facing a god, I send in the bard.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 10, 2017 20:02:53 GMT
Ehhhhhh ... in the high-level echelons of D&D, you're regularly jumping around planes and fighting celestial beings. Take the Order of the Stick: when they started out, they were running away from goblins. Now their run-of-the-mill mooks are frost giants. So, do you want to start DA4 with killing xvarts again?
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Post by Warrior DM on Jul 10, 2017 20:14:52 GMT
Morrigan wants to restore the "old ways" and all that, but more importantly: "If the Wilds have taught me anything, 'tis this: first you must survive." She doesn't put any goal above survival, so if Fen'Harel's apocalypse required her to lay down her life, she'd absolutely oppose him. Then there's the idea that Mythal seems essential to Fen'Harel's plans, I wouldn't be surprised if, should Morrigan have drunken from the Well of Sorrows, particularly, she might have a role to play in the whole plan, however, since Flemeth refers to herself during DA2 as a "fly in the ointment", I wouldn't be surprised if she's there as an infiltrator. Without the Well of Sorrows, though, I don't see Morrigan having much of a role in the next game, however. (Shrug) where it comes to Morrigan, logic does not apply. There was no reason at all whatsoever for Morrigan to be in DA3. At all. And yet they backed the player against the wall and held his nose till he swallowed the poison. So leaving all the plotlines involving Morrigan that were established in Origins unresolved would have been logical? Interesting.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 10, 2017 20:19:04 GMT
(Shrug) where it comes to Morrigan, logic does not apply. There was no reason at all whatsoever for Morrigan to be in DA3. At all. And yet they backed the player against the wall and held his nose till he swallowed the poison. So leaving all the plotlines involving Morrigan that were established in Origins unresolved would have been logical? Interesting. Yep. DA2 managed w/o her, and there was no reason for Orlesian Empire from all things (!) to force her on the PC under protest. All her baby-stuff could have been resolved offscreen. A letter would have been just fine for anyone who had a baby with her. She was totally not needed for anyone else.
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Post by Lazarillo on Jul 10, 2017 20:21:23 GMT
When I'm facing a god, I send in the bard. You realize that the closest thing we have to a Bard in Dragon Age is Varric, right? Not that this is a bad thing, especially if Fen'Harel inevitably mutters "Well, shit." upon his defeat.
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Post by Warrior DM on Jul 10, 2017 20:26:08 GMT
So leaving all the plotlines involving Morrigan that were established in Origins unresolved would have been logical? Interesting. Yep. DA2 managed w/o her, and there was no reason for Orlesian Empire from all things (!) to force her on the PC under protest. All her baby-stuff could have been resolved offscreen. A letter would have been just fine for anyone who had a baby with her. She was totally not needed for anyone else. Sorry, but everything you're saying just screams illogical. Morrigan was established as an important character since her introduction, and having any of these story elements told off-screen would have just been poor story telling. Sounds to me you just don't enjoy the character, and you are basing your "logic" on pure bias. Dragon Age 2 really didn't do "just fine" either. You only need to look at the game's reputation to realize that.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 10, 2017 20:42:25 GMT
Yep. DA2 managed w/o her, and there was no reason for Orlesian Empire from all things (!) to force her on the PC under protest. All her baby-stuff could have been resolved offscreen. A letter would have been just fine for anyone who had a baby with her. She was totally not needed for anyone else. Sorry, but everything you're saying just screams illogical. Morrigan was established as an important character since her introduction, and having any of these story elements told off-screen would have just been poor story telling. Sounds to me you just don't enjoy the character, and you are basing your "logic" on pure bias. Dragon Age 2 really didn't do "just fine" either. You only need to look at the game's reputation to realize that. In Origins, you could dismiss her in the beginning of the game, and refuse her offers when she reappeared in the end. At best, she was a minor character in this case. Her sudden importance to the Empress of Orlais by some cocked up reason and an even more mindboggling insistence of the Empress that the Inquisitor MUST have this woman as her ambassador, no other options, is poor storytelling. The Empress basically treats the very man who put her on the throne as a hostile power to be humiliated by refusing to consider his or her wishes for an ambassador. It is a diplomatic scandal, and the Inquisitor is a laughing stock of the international community.
DA2 is the best game DA team managed to put out. The critique of the game hinges on budgetary restrictions that caused assets reuse. Some people also criticize the length of the last Act of the game, but I disagree with it. In my view, DA2 has a focused story with the best companion story placement/integration in any bio game and most balanced approach to aesthetics and language. It has a strong central story and some good integrated side-stories, some of them continuous between acts or games.
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Post by thats1evildude on Jul 10, 2017 20:44:08 GMT
Ehhhhhh ... in the high-level echelons of D&D, you're regularly jumping around planes and fighting celestial beings. Take the Order of the Stick: when they started out, they were running away from goblins. Now their run-of-the-mill mooks are frost giants. So, do you want to start DA4 with killing xvarts again? A poor comparison. In DAI, we started out killing demons and kept killing demons throughout the game. They just got stronger.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 10, 2017 20:46:25 GMT
So, do you want to start DA4 with killing xvarts again? In DAI, we started out killing demons and kept killing demons throughout the game. (groan) and closed rifts. Yes.
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Post by Lazarillo on Jul 10, 2017 20:47:40 GMT
Some people also criticize the length of the last Act of the game, but I disagree with it. I will say, speaking as one of those critique-ers, it's not like DA2 was unique in the series for just kinda going "whelp, games over, thanks for coming!". Origins and Inquisitions both got really rushed near the end, too. That said, it's probably a little naive to not admit that whether you liked it or not (I'm more in the "liked it" category for what it's worth), public reception to the game can, at best, be described as..."polarized". And even if there are compelling, real world reasons for the things that people find lacking about the game, given how much better Inquisition did in terms of both general reputation and dollars earned, for better or worse, it seems extremely likely they'll do more to emulate DAI than DA2.
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Post by thats1evildude on Jul 10, 2017 20:50:02 GMT
If this were Dungeons and Dragons, I would expect my character to graduate from killing kobolds to punching out demigods. But Dragon Age isn't really comparable.
You move up in level and get better equipment, yes, but the power creep isn't exponential. You go from fighting bandits to fighting high dragons, not from giant rats to demigods.
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Post by Lazarillo on Jul 10, 2017 20:52:04 GMT
You go from fighting bandits to high dragons, not from giant rats to demigods. First enemy killed for a Human Noble in DAO: Giant Rat Final enemy killed for a Human Noble in DAO: Corrupted ancient god of beauty
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Post by Deleted on Jul 10, 2017 20:53:37 GMT
Some people also criticize the length of the last Act of the game, but I disagree with it. I will say, speaking as one of those critique-ers, it's not like DA2 was unique in the series for just kinda going "whelp, games over, thanks for coming!". Origins and Inquisitions both got really rushed near the end, too. That said, it's probably a little naive to not admit that whether you liked it or not (I'm more in the "liked it" category for what it's worth), public reception to the game can, at best, be described as..."polarized". And even if there are compelling, real world reasons for the things that people find lacking about the game, given how much better Inquisition did in terms of both general reputation and dollars earned, for better or worse, it seems extremely likely they'll do more to emulate DAI than DA2. I felt that the end sequence was really long and thorough in DA2, and rather satisfying, particularly as a Templar ally. As a mage it had the weird point. I also find that Legacy really works well with it.
I am aware that by some reason or another people at large like DA3, and that is why I am on the fence about DA4. I don't want to play a second take on DA3.
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Post by thats1evildude on Jul 10, 2017 20:56:10 GMT
You go from fighting bandits to high dragons, not from giant rats to demigods. First enemy killed for a Human Noble in DAO: Giant Rat That's more of a joke than an encounter, since I don't think the rats can even hurt you. And anyways, I was a City Elf Warden. I went from fighting armoured guards to the Archdemon. There's a gap between the two, obviously, but not as wide as you think. At least four other Grey Wardens managed to defeat the same foe.
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Post by tacsear on Jul 10, 2017 21:25:19 GMT
So, do you want to start DA4 with killing xvarts again? A poor comparison. In DAI, we started out killing demons and kept killing demons throughout the game. They just got stronger. And DRAGONS. Don't forget the dragons
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Post by Warrior DM on Jul 10, 2017 21:49:43 GMT
Sorry, but everything you're saying just screams illogical. Morrigan was established as an important character since her introduction, and having any of these story elements told off-screen would have just been poor story telling. Sounds to me you just don't enjoy the character, and you are basing your "logic" on pure bias. Dragon Age 2 really didn't do "just fine" either. You only need to look at the game's reputation to realize that. In Origins, you could dismiss her in the beginning of the game, and refuse her offers when she reappeared in the end. At best, she was a minor character in this case. Her sudden importance to the Empress of Orlais by some cocked up reason and an even more mindboggling insistence of the Empress that the Inquisitor MUST have this woman as her ambassador, no other options, is poor storytelling. The Empress basically treats the very man who put her on the throne as a hostile power to be humiliated by refusing to consider his or her wishes for an ambassador. It is a diplomatic scandal, and the Inquisitor is a laughing stock of the international community.
DA2 is the best game DA team managed to put out. The critique of the game hinges on budgetary restrictions that caused assets reuse. Some people also criticize the length of the last Act of the game, but I disagree with it. In my view, DA2 has a focused story with the best companion story placement/integration in any bio game and most balanced approach to aesthetics and language. It has a strong central story and some good integrated side-stories, some of them continuous between acts or games.
Except Morrigan would still be an important character, considering how she is the daughter of Flemeth. Flemeth also being Mythal further brings in the idea that this family is one of the most important parts of Dragon Age as a whole. Regardless of whether or not Morrigan is accepted by the Warden, Flemeth's true purpose for her is constantly hinted at, but never completely disclosed by throughout every appearance. Given all of the story points that Morrigan is given, you're simply denying yourself a huge chunk of the narrative by dismissing her. The lore heavily established her position in the Orlesian court before she even appeared in-game. (Through Vivienne directly elevating the position, Celene's interest in magic, Morrigan's personality correlating with the Game, etc.)The writing backs this up, and everything Morrigan is later responsible for reinforces that. An Inquisitor who denies the Empress of Orlais her choice as ambassador out of purely petty reasons is fairly ridiculous. It doesn't surprise me that an Inquisitor who would deny one of the most powerful leaders in the world a simple request would be mocked. (Especially considering the state of Thedas during this time, the threat of Corypheus, and necessity to find the means of defeating him.) Again, it just seems like you just don't like Morrigan. You don't need a convoluted reason to have that opinion. Dragon Age 2 has a worse reputation than Mass Effect: Andromeda. I enjoyed the game while it was new, but it has aged far worse than Origins. It's fine if you enjoy Dragon Age II, (I personally think it's reputation is undeserved), but it's a fact that the the vast majority of people do not see that game as the best in the series. I have no desire to argue this further, so let's bring this back on topic.
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Post by arvaarad on Jul 11, 2017 0:39:06 GMT
When I'm facing a god, I send in the bard. You realize that the closest thing we have to a Bard in Dragon Age is Varric, right? Not that this is a bad thing, especially if Fen'Harel inevitably mutters "Well, shit." upon his defeat. Him or Josephine. She gets immediate responses from the Qunari triumvirate. I wouldn't be even slightly surprised if she somehow has Dirthamen on speed-dial. A dropped handkerchief here, a strategic marriage there, and any god who stood against her would be driven to such embarrassment that they'd vanish in a cloud of shame.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 11, 2017 13:35:39 GMT
In Origins, you could dismiss her in the beginning of the game, and refuse her offers when she reappeared in the end. At best, she was a minor character in this case. Her sudden importance to the Empress of Orlais by some cocked up reason and an even more mindboggling insistence of the Empress that the Inquisitor MUST have this woman as her ambassador, no other options, is poor storytelling. The Empress basically treats the very man who put her on the throne as a hostile power to be humiliated by refusing to consider his or her wishes for an ambassador. It is a diplomatic scandal, and the Inquisitor is a laughing stock of the international community.
DA2 is the best game DA team managed to put out. The critique of the game hinges on budgetary restrictions that caused assets reuse. Some people also criticize the length of the last Act of the game, but I disagree with it. In my view, DA2 has a focused story with the best companion story placement/integration in any bio game and most balanced approach to aesthetics and language. It has a strong central story and some good integrated side-stories, some of them continuous between acts or games.
The lore heavily established her position in the Orlesian court before she even appeared in-game. (Through Vivienne directly elevating the position, Celene's interest in magic, Morrigan's personality correlating with the Game, etc.)The writing backs this up, and everything Morrigan is later responsible for reinforces that. None of it has anything to do with Morrigan. Vivienne established a position for herself and she is not at all a person who shares power willingly. Morrigan is a wild girl from the forest that has nothing to do with Orlais, nobles or court games. NOTHING.
I am supposed to be a head of the Inquisition, and as such have every right to expel an ambassador I do not want. Every. Right. The ambassador by definition should be someone who can broker deals between the two parties, and it's a terrible start of diplomatic relations to send an insult of a representative. It's the most terrible moment in the game. I regret not having an option to leave Orlais to its civil war, if no matter what I do, I can't get a small favor back from the very person I installed on the throne. Why even bother with doing favors to the high & mighty if you can't get a simple thing like that? At least in Origins, you can tell Morrigan to leave both times she tries to force herself into your party.
Again, if they don't give us a chance to oppose and kill Morrigan in DA4, it would be hugely disappointing to me.
I will stand with anyone, sign on a dotted line, do anything to have a chance to finally express that I am against her and kill her.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 11, 2017 13:41:09 GMT
You realize that the closest thing we have to a Bard in Dragon Age is Varric, right? Not that this is a bad thing, especially if Fen'Harel inevitably mutters "Well, shit." upon his defeat. Him or Josephine. She gets immediate responses from the Qunari triumvirate. I wouldn't be even slightly surprised if she somehow has Dirthamen on speed-dial. A dropped handkerchief here, a strategic marriage there, and any god who stood against her would be driven to such embarrassment that they'd vanish in a cloud of shame. I thought Leliana was a bone fide Bard and anyone could spec as one in Origins.
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Post by arvaarad on Jul 11, 2017 16:18:24 GMT
Him or Josephine. She gets immediate responses from the Qunari triumvirate. I wouldn't be even slightly surprised if she somehow has Dirthamen on speed-dial. A dropped handkerchief here, a strategic marriage there, and any god who stood against her would be driven to such embarrassment that they'd vanish in a cloud of shame. I thought Leliana was a bone fide Bard and anyone could spec as one in Origins. I think we're both referring to bards in the D&D sense. Up until the most recent edition, they generally sucked at combat but had amazing people/non-combat skills. If you needed to defeat 5 people, you'd use a wizard. If you needed to defeat an army, you'd use a bard. The bard would charm and cajole their way into the opposing general's confidence, and three days later the rest of the party would discover the army fractured and fighting within itself. Of course, in D&D 5E they started dominating at combat and didn't lose much of their people skills, so the story is a bit different nowadays.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 11, 2017 16:36:22 GMT
I thought Leliana was a bone fide Bard and anyone could spec as one in Origins. I think we're both referring to bards in the D&D sense. Up until the most recent edition, they generally sucked at combat but had amazing people/non-combat skills. If you needed to defeat 5 people, you'd use a wizard. If you needed to defeat an army, you'd use a bard. The bard would charm and cajole their way into the opposing general's confidence, and three days later the rest of the party would discover the army fractured and fighting within itself. Of course, in D&D 5E they started dominating at combat and didn't lose much of their people skills, so the story is a bit different nowadays. Well, that's what Leliana does too. Bards were just fine in Baldur's Gate combat wise. Good to know they still have classes in the PnP versions, it was like multiclassing into some sort of hybrids back when IWD2/NWN2 came out.
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