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Post by arvaarad on Jul 11, 2017 21:11:17 GMT
I think we're both referring to bards in the D&D sense. Up until the most recent edition, they generally sucked at combat but had amazing people/non-combat skills. If you needed to defeat 5 people, you'd use a wizard. If you needed to defeat an army, you'd use a bard. The bard would charm and cajole their way into the opposing general's confidence, and three days later the rest of the party would discover the army fractured and fighting within itself. Of course, in D&D 5E they started dominating at combat and didn't lose much of their people skills, so the story is a bit different nowadays. Well, that's what Leliana does too. Bards were just fine in Baldur's Gate combat wise. Good to know they still have classes in the PnP versions, it was like multiclassing into some sort of hybrids back when IWD2/NWN2 came out. Leliana's good at fighting, and tends to jump to the "kill all the stuff in our way" mode faster than I'd expect a bard (as a general archetype, not as the Dragon Age profession) to. To me, Josie and Imshael would be examples of the archetypal bard. They win by talking, pulling weird stuff out of their knapsack, and subtlety. In short, they consider direct combat to be a failure, even if they can fight. Imshael even does the classic "why have you forced me into combat ughhhhhhh" bard-whining if you fight him. If he were playing a tabletop game, that would be squarely directed at his GM or the rest of his party.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 11, 2017 21:17:27 GMT
Well, that's what Leliana does too. Bards were just fine in Baldur's Gate combat wise. Good to know they still have classes in the PnP versions, it was like multiclassing into some sort of hybrids back when IWD2/NWN2 came out. Leliana's good at fighting, and tends to jump to the "kill all the stuff in our way" mode faster than I'd expect a bard (as a general archetype, not as the Dragon Age profession) to. To me, Josie and Imshael would be examples of the archetypal bard. They win by talking, pulling weird stuff out of their knapsack, and subtlety. In short, they consider direct combat to be a failure, even if they can fight. Imshael even does the classic "why have you forced me into combat ughhhhhhh" bard-whining if you fight him. If he were playing a tabletop game, that would be squarely directed at his GM or the rest of his party. Dunno who Imshael is, but I find both Leliana and Josephine perfectly fine as bards. Scalds were pretty front line in Baldur's gate iirc... but I don't remeber it that well, and can't recall what kit Haer was. But iirc he was both poetic and aggressive. Which I don't really mind. I am not a big fun of chars with a comic relief cowardice line, they tend to wear a little thin after a few hours of gameplay.
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Post by thats1evildude on Jul 11, 2017 22:34:04 GMT
Imshael is a demon choice spirit. He commands the Red Templars at Emprise Du Lion.
Notably, he was one of the Forbidden Ones — a group of extremely powerful spirits exiled to the Fade by the ancient elves. The others were Gaxkhang and Xebenkeck. (And possibly a fourth known as the Formless One.)
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Post by arvaarad on Jul 12, 2017 0:54:28 GMT
Leliana's good at fighting, and tends to jump to the "kill all the stuff in our way" mode faster than I'd expect a bard (as a general archetype, not as the Dragon Age profession) to. To me, Josie and Imshael would be examples of the archetypal bard. They win by talking, pulling weird stuff out of their knapsack, and subtlety. In short, they consider direct combat to be a failure, even if they can fight. Imshael even does the classic "why have you forced me into combat ughhhhhhh" bard-whining if you fight him. If he were playing a tabletop game, that would be squarely directed at his GM or the rest of his party. Dunno who Imshael is, but I find both Leliana and Josephine perfectly fine as bards. Scalds were pretty front line in Baldur's gate iirc... but I don't remeber it that well, and can't recall what kit Haer was. But iirc he was both poetic and aggressive. Which I don't really mind. I am not a big fun of chars with a comic relief cowardice line, they tend to wear a little thin after a few hours of gameplay. Imshael isn't cowardly, he's just annoyed when he's forced to stoop to combat. He's a Forbidden One who can shapeshift into 3 different demon forms and most likely can't be permanently killed. He has nothing to fear from combat... except its inelegance.
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Post by fylimar on Jul 12, 2017 5:04:57 GMT
Leliana's good at fighting, and tends to jump to the "kill all the stuff in our way" mode faster than I'd expect a bard (as a general archetype, not as the Dragon Age profession) to. To me, Josie and Imshael would be examples of the archetypal bard. They win by talking, pulling weird stuff out of their knapsack, and subtlety. In short, they consider direct combat to be a failure, even if they can fight. Imshael even does the classic "why have you forced me into combat ughhhhhhh" bard-whining if you fight him. If he were playing a tabletop game, that would be squarely directed at his GM or the rest of his party. Dunno who Imshael is, but I find both Leliana and Josephine perfectly fine as bards. Scalds were pretty front line in Baldur's gate iirc... but I don't remeber it that well, and can't recall what kit Haer was. But iirc he was both poetic and aggressive. Which I don't really mind. I am not a big fun of chars with a comic relief cowardice line, they tend to wear a little thin after a few hours of gameplay. Haer'Dalis was a Blade And yay for bards - love playing them. In DnD as much as in DA (I'm a bit cross, that bard isn't a thing anymore since DAO)
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
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Post by fylimar on Jul 12, 2017 5:47:21 GMT
In Origins, you could dismiss her in the beginning of the game, and refuse her offers when she reappeared in the end. At best, she was a minor character in this case. Her sudden importance to the Empress of Orlais by some cocked up reason and an even more mindboggling insistence of the Empress that the Inquisitor MUST have this woman as her ambassador, no other options, is poor storytelling. The Empress basically treats the very man who put her on the throne as a hostile power to be humiliated by refusing to consider his or her wishes for an ambassador. It is a diplomatic scandal, and the Inquisitor is a laughing stock of the international community.
DA2 is the best game DA team managed to put out. The critique of the game hinges on budgetary restrictions that caused assets reuse. Some people also criticize the length of the last Act of the game, but I disagree with it. In my view, DA2 has a focused story with the best companion story placement/integration in any bio game and most balanced approach to aesthetics and language. It has a strong central story and some good integrated side-stories, some of them continuous between acts or games.
Except Morrigan would still be an important character, considering how she is the daughter of Flemeth. Flemeth also being Mythal further brings in the idea that this family is one of the most important parts of Dragon Age as a whole. Regardless of whether or not Morrigan is accepted by the Warden, Flemeth's true purpose for her is constantly hinted at, but never completely disclosed by throughout every appearance. Given all of the story points that Morrigan is given, you're simply denying yourself a huge chunk of the narrative by dismissing her. The lore heavily established her position in the Orlesian court before she even appeared in-game. (Through Vivienne directly elevating the position, Celene's interest in magic, Morrigan's personality correlating with the Game, etc.)The writing backs this up, and everything Morrigan is later responsible for reinforces that. An Inquisitor who denies the Empress of Orlais her choice as ambassador out of purely petty reasons is fairly ridiculous. It doesn't surprise me that an Inquisitor who would deny one of the most powerful leaders in the world a simple request would be mocked. (Especially considering the state of Thedas during this time, the threat of Corypheus, and necessity to find the means of defeating him.) Again, it just seems like you just don't like Morrigan. You don't need a convoluted reason to have that opinion. Dragon Age 2 has a worse reputation than Mass Effect: Andromeda. I enjoyed the game while it was new, but it has aged far worse than Origins. It's fine if you enjoy Dragon Age II, (I personally think it's reputation is undeserved), but it's a fact that the the vast majority of people do not see that game as the best in the series. I have no desire to argue this further, so let's bring this back on topic. To be honest, it will be hard to give Morrigan an important role in DA4, since it could have been the inquisitor drinking from the Well and having the connection with Mythal (bringing it back on track). The cleanest way to resolve it would be for the inqui or Morrigan to transfer their connection, power ... to some other character - probably the player character. If they force Morrigan as the one with the knowledge of the well on me, despite my canon inqui having drunk from the Well, I will be cross. And many other players too probably (and probably even the ones, who like Morrigan). The original connection to Mythal might not be strong for Morrigan. From what I have seen, she is a merely human with no special power (she isn't the first to use the eluvians and she wont be the last), so obvioisly, being Felemth daughter only means, that she inherited her mothers magical talent. Otherwise, she wouldn't have need to drink from the Well imo. I could be wrong, but I don't see any evidence of that in the games. And I did take Morrigan with me a few times more in DAO, after I discovered, who Flemeth really is, but there was nothing, that she didn't have from Flemeth stolen tome. one shor OT: About DA2: the reception changed a lot in the last years. Now it seems really to be a favorite (and Hawke certainly is a well loved player character). Whenever I try to peek into the MEA section of this board, the shitstorms are high and I don't remember that being the case back when DA2 came out - not that extrem. Da2 is a very flawed game, but it has a lot of heart in it (and Varric of course ).
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Post by Deleted on Jul 12, 2017 12:30:05 GMT
Dunno who Imshael is, but I find both Leliana and Josephine perfectly fine as bards. Scalds were pretty front line in Baldur's gate iirc... but I don't remeber it that well, and can't recall what kit Haer was. But iirc he was both poetic and aggressive. Which I don't really mind. I am not a big fun of chars with a comic relief cowardice line, they tend to wear a little thin after a few hours of gameplay. Imshael isn't cowardly, he's just annoyed when he's forced to stoop to combat. He's a Forbidden One who can shapeshift into 3 different demon forms and most likely can't be permanently killed. He has nothing to fear from combat... except its inelegance. Sorry, must be from the DLC I did not play or something. I don't recognize the reference at all. But, the other companions that complain about doing battles have drawn criticism in the past, like Theran in the Consular story or Khalid in BG1.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
Posts: 21,272 Likes: 50,587
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Post by Iakus on Jul 12, 2017 14:15:41 GMT
Imshael isn't cowardly, he's just annoyed when he's forced to stoop to combat. He's a Forbidden One who can shapeshift into 3 different demon forms and most likely can't be permanently killed. He has nothing to fear from combat... except its inelegance. Sorry, must be from the DLC I did not play or something. I don't recognize the reference at all. But, the other companions that complain about doing battles have drawn criticism in the past, like Theran in the Consular story or Khalid in BG1. Imshael was the final "boss" of the Emprise Du Lion storyline. He also appeared in The Masked Empire novel.
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Iakus
N7
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
Posts: 21,272 Likes: 50,587
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
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Post by Iakus on Jul 12, 2017 14:17:43 GMT
As for Morrigan having a hand in opposing Solas...it is possible, but not a major role, I think. As mentioned before, her status is in a bit of flux atm. If she did appear, it would likely be to try and claim the essence of Mythal Solas took.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 12, 2017 14:50:16 GMT
Sorry, must be from the DLC I did not play or something. I don't recognize the reference at all. But, the other companions that complain about doing battles have drawn criticism in the past, like Theran in the Consular story or Khalid in BG1. Imshael was the final "boss" of the Emprise Du Lion storyline. He also appeared in The Masked Empire novel. Ah, I see. I did not do that map on my PT, b/c ice/snow landscape, and I had enough levels to finish the game w/o it.
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Post by fylimar on Jul 12, 2017 15:09:40 GMT
Imshael was the final "boss" of the Emprise Du Lion storyline. He also appeared in The Masked Empire novel. Ah, I see. I did not do that map on my PT, b/c ice/snow landscape, and I had enough levels to finish the game w/o it. If you ever do a playthrough again, you should consider doing EdL, it's a beautiful map and that encounter with Imshael is tied to the main story (do it after Here Lies The Abyss) - and take Cole with you and ask Imshael for virgins
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Post by smilesja on Jul 12, 2017 15:17:30 GMT
I don't see why anyone would side with Solas based on what we know from Trespasser even if you hate/distrust Morrigan she is a better alternative than complete annihilation. I see DA:4 playing out more as either Solas is bad and dies/fails or you redeem him and he dies anyways. Maybe a hidden third ending where his fate is ambiguous for the Solasmancers out there. I don't think there will be many choices in the matter about siding with or against Solas. It will be like, 'Solas you need to chillout' versus 'Solas I'm going kill you no matter what' type of story. Who know? Solas' experiment may be interesting. Probably a doom, but what about if not? Someone can support simple scientific curiosity ... Curiosity that could lead to the death of millions?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 12, 2017 15:19:05 GMT
Ah, I see. I did not do that map on my PT, b/c ice/snow landscape, and I had enough levels to finish the game w/o it. If you ever do a playthrough again, you should consider doing EdL, it's a beautiful map and that encounter with Imshael is tied to the main story (do it after Here Lies The Abyss) - and take Cole with you and ask Imshael for virgins unless the game makes me, I normally don't do winter maps. I hate snow and ice irl so I prefer flowering plains, gardens, beaches and jungles in my fantasy travels. I live with 6 month of winter and a few month of brown grass here, so lush, lush and lusher and tropical/exotic is what I consider beautiful.
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Post by Catilina on Jul 12, 2017 15:22:36 GMT
Who know? Solas' experiment may be interesting. Probably a doom, but what about if not? Someone can support simple scientific curiosity ... Curiosity that could lead to the death of millions? Did I say that a good character? This is a very expensive experiment...
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
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Post by fylimar on Jul 12, 2017 15:23:45 GMT
If you ever do a playthrough again, you should consider doing EdL, it's a beautiful map and that encounter with Imshael is tied to the main story (do it after Here Lies The Abyss) - and take Cole with you and ask Imshael for virgins unless the game makes me, I normally don't do winter maps. I hate snow and ice irl so I prefer flowering plains, gardens, beaches and jungles in my fantasy travels. I live with 6 month of winter and a few month of brown grass here, so lush, lush and lusher and tropical/exotic is what I consider beautiful. Ok, that I understand. I'm not much of a summer person myself, but at least, we have all four seasons equally (and I love winter - I mean real winter with snow)
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Post by Deleted on Jul 12, 2017 15:33:10 GMT
unless the game makes me, I normally don't do winter maps. I hate snow and ice irl so I prefer flowering plains, gardens, beaches and jungles in my fantasy travels. I live with 6 month of winter and a few month of brown grass here, so lush, lush and lusher and tropical/exotic is what I consider beautiful. Ok, that I understand. I'm not much of a summer person myself, but at least, we have all four seasons equally (and I love winter - I mean real winter with snow) Yeah, I can't wait to retire and move to the coast. Place were flowers start blooming in February not in May... anyway, I am pondering to uninstall DA franchise regardless of landscapes, tbh. Some of it was fun, but overall, I dunno. I've just never fallen in love with it. I am just waiting to see if I get feels for finishing Ozimaar on my Dwarf. So, I guess, I won't meet the demon bard there.
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Warrior DM
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The morning is for coffee and contemplation.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, KOTOR, Mass Effect Andromeda
XBL Gamertag: Warrior DM
Posts: 296 Likes: 536
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The morning is for coffee and contemplation.
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Post by Warrior DM on Jul 12, 2017 20:32:04 GMT
As for Morrigan having a hand in opposing Solas...it is possible, but not a major role, I think. As mentioned before, her status is in a bit of flux atm. If she did appear, it would likely be to try and claim the essence of Mythal Solas took. Was it confirmed that the soul of the Old God was poured through into the Eluvian? I wonder how that could possibly come into play.
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