The BSN writers club

Not much in the past two days, but I have managed to infuse a bit of life and movement between the dialogue lines in the beginning of Chapter 3, and break apart some of the bigger info-dump chunks of it to something more akin to what people would say in conversation, rather than when they are lecturing an audience.

My favorite part atm is working with my outline, seeing the connections form, and noticing things that need explanations, and sometimes connecting the dots. It's really cool when that happens, because for me it validates the logic of the setting. Which is, well, important.

Anyway, enjoying it so far, but boy, wish I was not so slow and so inept with grammar.

Good luck! I would never be able to meet the word count demand on the NaNoWriMo, but I always root for the folks who try it

Honestly there really is no 'trick' to it.  Sometimes you just gotta do what you gotta do and as a constant reminder, and struggle for myself is to remember this simple fact.  When you are writing for yourself only, whether a fanfiction, just practicing, or with your own internal fiction...it is wise to put as few 'have to' statements as you possibly can.  Fewer self applied, and outside applied, roadblocks that might get in the way of you actually writing.  It really dosen't matter because there are few, or even no, rules of how long a story should be.  How long a chapter should be.  My longest fan fic is 54 chapters long, my longest original work is 47 (to the best of my knowledge).  But either way, the best thing you can do is just write.  The length will take care of itself.

Thank you! I'm delighted you enjoyed what you read of it.

As to how to write long-form fiction? I've been writing this particular series for a couple of years now, and there are several shorts and novella-length works in it, so I worked my way up to it. My first long one at just over 177K was TRAITOR last year.

I had some specific plot ideas and a loose outline for what I wanted to happen, and just...started writing the first word-vomit version. I tend to start with chunks of dialogue, so sometimes those were written well before the scenes they belonged to were in place, but you just work your way to them. To an extent, within the framework, I let the book write itself if that makes any sense. Often scenes and characters come into it that weren't there in the outline, and sometimes a character or scene you thought was going to kick ass just doesn't work and has to be reduced or thrown out.

I really didn't know how long Hidden was going to be other than novel length, but even in third and fourth edits, the thing kept growing until it was as long as it needed to be. And the editing is all-important, especially with long pieces. It's the only way to get everything to line up, hang together properly and not have laggy parts -- I never post until the thing's done and been thoroughly edited.

Only other answer I have is...my characters are pushy buggers and seem to have a lot to say. Then because I know my stuff is dialogue-heavy, I have to go in and add description once those blocks of dialogue are mostly done. Next thing you know you're at 280K. But also remember not every book wants or needs to be that long, so don't be afraid to start with shorter stuff and work your way up. The main thing is, the more you write, the easier it will get as you find what works for you.
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I'm glad you told me that your work has been in the process for years because I'm always under the assumption that everyone just writes wicked fast and pumps stuff out like crazy. I really admire the effort you've been into those years. How do you stick with it? Just inability to ignore the urge?

I don't really like to outline my work because I feel really restricted by them. I should probably get in the habit of outlines, just to organize my thoughts a bit and see what I was thinking at the time, but I'd be too afraid to deviate from it. Besides, my best thinking comes in the moment.

But I really like the whole dialogue first bit. That sounds a hell of a lot easier than going through it all at once. Hmmmmmmmmm

The more I write, the more I find value in going back and editing. I didn't use to (which explains how shit my work usually is) but I'm currently writing a fic now and I've literally rewritten the intro maybe five times? They're not great but they get progressively better and the time I take going back and rewriting is more time for me to think things out.

I do have a question, what's your release schedule like for fics? I usually wait until I have a few chapters before I start putting them out, just so I don't start something and abandon it. It kinda works but I feel like I should wait for feedback on chapters.

Heh - You might be able to write wicked fast and pump out stuff like crazy right away, but that doesn't mean it's going to be good right away. Just as with any other skill, writing well takes some time to learn.

I stick with it because I both love writing, and my narrator is a pushy bugger who's been monopolizing all my plot ideas for the last few years.

Well, you'll note I said a loose outline, that may or may not dictate the final form of the story. It's not to imprison what you write -- it's to give you a clear idea where you want to go with the book. Some of the best writing advice I've come across is: If you're writing a story where "thing A happens, then thing B happens, etc.", you're doing it wrong. In a good story "Because Thing A happened, Thing B happens, etc." There needs to be connection between story elements, and if something is unconnected, you need to know why that is, too, and why it still needs to be in the narrative. Outlines are handy in that you know "I need this thing to happen here so that this thing happens later, and the story will end up over here". You can always change the mechanism for how to get to your end point if the original idea isn't working or a better one comes along.

Editing is often underrated, especially by beginning writers. Editing is where you take that initial word vomit version of your story (and every first draft is just that if you've got anything bigger than a drabble) and make it pretty and streamlined and sexy. And the longer the piece, the more editing it's going to need to ensure you've filled in the inevitable logic gaps that are going to pop up and that everything hangs together and makes sense so the ending is satisfying to you and the reader.

Well, I'm a bit unusual when it comes to release schedule for fics in that I don't post anything until the entire story is done and been edited. With Hidden, I posted sections once a week because it's just so bloody big, but I never post while it's in progress (though I was still editing Hidden right to the bitter end because there's always little things that can be fixed), and I don't write my stuff depending on what feedback I get on any given chapter. For one thing, I write what would be considered more of a niche pairing, in that all my stuff (so far) is about Dorian/my (former) Inquisitor. While I have developed a bit of a following, it's not got the huge numbers of readers that, say, Cullen/F!Inquisitor have, let alone other fandoms like Supernatural or Harry Potter. I don't always get tons of feedback on every single chapter, so am I supposed to stop writing if I don't hear anything on a chapter? You should be taking the reader on a ride for them to enjoy, including not necessarily knowing what's going to happen next or why Thing A will result in Thing D farther down the line until it all comes together and suddenly makes sense to them. My fics are not interactive while in the process of being written.

That being said, a lot of people like posting while writing, and/or like getting feedback between chapters. If you prefer that and it works for you, go right ahead. There are no hard and fast rules; I'm just saying what works for me.
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Just try to remind yourself - it'll never be perfect on the first try. Even if it's just 100 words, there'll probably be at least one typo or thing that could use tweaking. There's a reason everyone calls first drafts the word vomit version.

Everything needs editing/revising! Sometimes I've ended up throwing whole scenes out, or changing them so much the finished product is barely recognizable. But when you do that, the finished story is so much better, it's worth every minute of it. Editing is the fun part, for one thing because no matter what, you're working with a finished product. It's done, and all that's left is to polish it until it shines.

Speaking of which -- another Best Advice piece came from Neil Gaiman: No matter what it is you're writing, one key to success is to finish it. That's all. Just write the whole thing. That's the first step, and it's amazing the difference that makes.

I don't know that it's superhuman patience that makes me wait until it's finished to post so much as the story is so much better when I've finished and edited it, it ain't even funny. It's worth it to me because of the quality of the finished product, and having it done also makes it easier to start the next one in the series (particularly the long ones) because I know what all my hooks for continuing plot points were from the previous books, and those give me several plotlines already set up for the new one.

Oh, don't get me wrong -- I love getting feedback. We all do. I'm lucky enough to have a few lovely readers who actually give chapter-by-chapter feedback, but those are few and far between. Most people never say anything. It does feel at times like you're shouting into a vacuum (and compared to many published authors - not the big ones, but people who maybe have a book or two out - fanfic often gets more immediate feedback). It's disappointing when something you've knocked yourself out writing gets no response. I guess that's where the other part can help you get through: Write what you want to read. If nothing else, at the end of the day you've got that story you really wanted to see. And chances are, there are others who wanted to see something like it too.
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beta readers/ editors really are a neccessity.

Beta readers and editors necessity?

*sigh*

I just take the leap and hope for the best after reading the chapter one last time carefully.

I can write more or less OK (I even catch vast majority of typos while typing, and erase the entire word to retype) so I mostly look for plotholes and stuff.

Like, I just on N7 released a chapter for my fic that was done since 2015 (I'm really, really bad at this...) which is where the protag's father was not yet "existant" in the world, so to speak. I haven't really given her parents other than "Yeah she has some, duh" until I used her in the RP here, which is when I figured out that her father is a chief engineer and her mother is a doctor who left with the Initiative. So I had to rewrite a sentence because it was written way back when her parents EXISTED, but had no thought given to them. So instead of the old (only mentor taught her) I adjusted it to account for her father (father taught her, mentor worked with that).

No, I post my chapters in Critters workshop. It is a closed workshop, and works on the principle of critiquing others to earn credits to put your work up for critique. It has extensive rules and minimal word count for each critique, so you get a lot of interesting commentary from both the people who liked what you wrote, and those who did not. There is about a three week period between when you get your story come up in the queue so it’s enough time to read through the feedback, and prepare the next chapter or short story for me.

Once I finish the whole novel, and edit it through all the feedback, I will put a request for dedicated reader, but I do not think I will be able to attract one. This is not fan fiction, and well, after I finish the novel, that’s that, because there is nowhere to post it anyway where it will get read more than on my hard drive, lol.