Amirit
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Post by Amirit on Sept 20, 2016 10:02:58 GMT
So yeah, I'm really hoping that the lesson they learned was "just make things interesting and engaging." I admit I'm a little concerned by their tendency to throw the baby out with the bathwater, as it were, when there's criticism of one of their games. Still, I'm not giving up on the hope that ME:A will be a fleshed-out good game, instead of a good game nestled in the middle of a bland one. I bookmarked your post. We can continue that talk about hopes and undying optimism next year
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Post by Sartoz on Sept 20, 2016 12:06:47 GMT
<<<<<<<<<<(0)>>>>>>>>>>
To be cynical, did Flynn learn to avoid rainbow colour endings?
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Post by straykat on Sept 20, 2016 12:13:20 GMT
<<<<<<<<<<(0)>>>>>>>>>> To be cynical, did Flynn learn to avoid rainbow colour endings? Unfortunately, I think he did. He sides with ME3 haters it seems. Or at least, he does what's convenient. Like when DAI was released, he called it a return to form. As if all of their stuff recently wasn't really "Bioware", until DAI. lol Personally, I'd take a the doctors and Hudson over a hundred Aaryn Flynns.
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Sylvius the Mad
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Post by Sylvius the Mad on Sept 20, 2016 13:34:05 GMT
This should really be the beginning and end of this discussion. I generally prefer games with at least some degree of narrative pacing, but they can make a game 200 hours long for all I care as long as the side content is fleshed out enough to make it interesting. I actually didn't think it was possible to make a narrative-focused open world game until I played Witcher 3, but now I know everyone was just doing it wrong. I feel as though I really need to pkay TW3 so I can meaningfully engage in discussions regarding it. Much as I played ME3 only so I could understand the complaints, I would like to play TW3 so see what's so great about it. But I dislike action combat. How difficult do you think it would be for someone who doesn't enjoy action combat to play TW3? The ME games were fine because they supported a pause-and-play style, which TW3 does not. And Skyrim worked for me because I could play as a stealth archer and snipe everything from range (and then mod the game to make close combat easier by having 5 companions with me). Is TW3 something I could get through, given that has action combat throughout?
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Post by Ahriman on Sept 20, 2016 13:52:21 GMT
Is TW3 something I could get through, given that has action combat throughout? On easy difficulty you'll just need to press hit button quick enough. Everyone should manage that I think.
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BadgerladDK
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Post by BadgerladDK on Sept 20, 2016 13:57:54 GMT
This should really be the beginning and end of this discussion. I generally prefer games with at least some degree of narrative pacing, but they can make a game 200 hours long for all I care as long as the side content is fleshed out enough to make it interesting. I actually didn't think it was possible to make a narrative-focused open world game until I played Witcher 3, but now I know everyone was just doing it wrong. I feel as though I really need to pkay TW3 so I can meaningfully engage in discussions regarding it. Much as I played ME3 only so I could understand the complaints, I would like to play TW3 so see what's so great about it. But I dislike action combat. How difficult do you think it would be for someone who doesn't enjoy action combat to play TW3? The ME games were fine because they supported a pause-and-play style, which TW3 does not. And Skyrim worked for me because I could play as a stealth archer and snipe everything from range (and then mod the game to make close combat easier by having 5 companions with me). Is TW3 something I could get through, given that has action combat throughout? As much as I love TW3, from reading your posts I honestly don't think you'd have a good time with the combat mechanics. Even as someone who does enjoy action combat, the combat mechanics are the mediocre black marks on an otherwise stellar game. But a step up from the truly awful ones in the first game. You could play it on the lowest combat difficulty and just faceroll it with spamming the Quen sign if you want to experience the story and setting, of course.
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linksocarina
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Post by linksocarina on Sept 20, 2016 14:15:36 GMT
This should really be the beginning and end of this discussion. I generally prefer games with at least some degree of narrative pacing, but they can make a game 200 hours long for all I care as long as the side content is fleshed out enough to make it interesting. I actually didn't think it was possible to make a narrative-focused open world game until I played Witcher 3, but now I know everyone was just doing it wrong. I feel as though I really need to pkay TW3 so I can meaningfully engage in discussions regarding it. Much as I played ME3 only so I could understand the complaints, I would like to play TW3 so see what's so great about it. But I dislike action combat. How difficult do you think it would be for someone who doesn't enjoy action combat to play TW3? The ME games were fine because they supported a pause-and-play style, which TW3 does not. And Skyrim worked for me because I could play as a stealth archer and snipe everything from range (and then mod the game to make close combat easier by having 5 companions with me). Is TW3 something I could get through, given that has action combat throughout? Did you play Witcher 1 and 2? Outside of tweaking the combat in those games, I think Witcher 3 is somewhat the same. And Witcher 1 and 2 are not that good...
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Adhin
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Post by Adhin on Sept 20, 2016 14:38:25 GMT
I feel as though I really need to pkay TW3 so I can meaningfully engage in discussions regarding it. Much as I played ME3 only so I could understand the complaints, I would like to play TW3 so see what's so great about it. But I dislike action combat. How difficult do you think it would be for someone who doesn't enjoy action combat to play TW3? The ME games were fine because they supported a pause-and-play style, which TW3 does not. And Skyrim worked for me because I could play as a stealth archer and snipe everything from range (and then mod the game to make close combat easier by having 5 companions with me). Is TW3 something I could get through, given that has action combat throughout? You'd want it on easy to zip past them. I'd also recommend focusing on being a mage as you can mostly just burn stuff. The melee combat in the game is... functional. It's like, with so many things, they saw Dark Souls and wanted to do something similar (just like DAI) but the higher ups had this hard on for animation priority to the point of being a detriment and didn't understand for any kind of good combat system frames need to be consistent. So you get this issue where, when you go to make an attack - light or heavy - you can't be sure the timing of it, at all. It could be a short and sweet 10 frames or it could be some spinning bullshit ballerina garbage shit that takes up 25 frames. Just as an aside, and this has nothing to do with the game 'really' but fuck the writer for being obsessed with pirouette. Fucker used it constantly to explain Geralts fighting style like he spent his whole time spinning in his fucking toes like a magic fairy. That bullshit made it's way into the game and it's just... guh god it's so pointless. ...anyway, ranting aside, I think ignoring combat you would like the way the game is structured since they literally don't force you much of anywhere. And your 100% alone so theres literally no one telling you to go do something. The downside with your tastes, though maybe it would 'work' in this case, is Geralt is 100% defined character. You don't make him, you just get to decide how grumpy he is in a conversation. So you know, making up your own background and pretending your character is using different inflections is even more pointless. But like I said, hes from a line of books, he exists in fiction prior to the games so I find it a lot easier not to be irritated with. But thats me. Anyway yeah, if you give it a try I would recommend focusing on magic and just playing it on easy. Combat is funky enough as is, and that's from someone who loves action combat just as much as I love turn based stuff (unless it's the JRPG lets stand in a line bullshit). It's a bad system designed to try and 'look' good. Bit of a bummer but still worth it.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 20, 2016 14:47:31 GMT
but have they learned from the mistakes of mass effect 3?
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Beerfish
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Post by Beerfish on Sept 20, 2016 15:00:08 GMT
This should really be the beginning and end of this discussion. I generally prefer games with at least some degree of narrative pacing, but they can make a game 200 hours long for all I care as long as the side content is fleshed out enough to make it interesting. I actually didn't think it was possible to make a narrative-focused open world game until I played Witcher 3, but now I know everyone was just doing it wrong. I feel as though I really need to pkay TW3 so I can meaningfully engage in discussions regarding it. Much as I played ME3 only so I could understand the complaints, I would like to play TW3 so see what's so great about it. But I dislike action combat. How difficult do you think it would be for someone who doesn't enjoy action combat to play TW3? The ME games were fine because they supported a pause-and-play style, which TW3 does not. And Skyrim worked for me because I could play as a stealth archer and snipe everything from range (and then mod the game to make close combat easier by having 5 companions with me). Is TW3 something I could get through, given that has action combat throughout? What the hell happened to the text of my initial post? Hmph,,,,i will give you to tl;dr version. combat at the lower levels of difficulty is endurable, the game is good and earns its praise. The biggest impediment for you might be being forced to be geralt.
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Ravenfeeder
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Post by Ravenfeeder on Sept 20, 2016 15:39:11 GMT
Is TW3 something I could get through, given that has action combat throughout? I tried to play TW2 on easy, which I understand is basically the same gameplay. I found it basically unplayable as, like you, I'm not a fan of twitchy action. ME3 was a breeze in comparison, which I actually quite enjoyed after a while. I really want to see all this great plot, world and character stuff people talk about for TW3, but the experience of TW2 has ensured I'm not going to waste my money.
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Sylvius the Mad
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Post by Sylvius the Mad on Sept 20, 2016 15:57:26 GMT
LOL Ahh man theres that one spot in Hinterlands that is just... I mean your like 'ok theres a bear aaand it's attacking us' Cool, cool just kill it no bi-- Oh, theres another bear great. Well whatever I can handle two bears, I mean that first ones almost de- Oh looks, two assassins, GREATS... whatever, the bear with all it's health will AoE stomps them while I kill it. I'm sure there wont be an... aaand another bear. Super, I'm sure nothing else could POSSIBLY show up. Except more shit will show up, cause that one spot right next to the camp is set to goddamn 11 on the respawner. It's just bears and assassins until you manage to get out of the area. -.- I know that spot. And I like that spot. Combat like that encourages us to learn to use our resources efficiently. Much as the non-regenerating health encourages longer term thinking, adds do the same. I really like that DAI discourages using all your tools in every encounter. And since I quite enjoy DAI's combat (especially with the tactical camera, which I understand doesn't work well with a controller), I'm happy to spend time engaging in it. Combat is resource management, and having the potential for sudden bear attacks makes that resource management more fun. Most modern games (even DAO did this) encourage the player to expend all of their resources in each encounter, and that makes combat less interesting, I think. Decisions should be more complicated than that. DAI's non-regenerating health and unpredictable encounters are better, I think.
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Post by SofaJockey on Sept 20, 2016 16:05:47 GMT
but have they learned from the mistakes of mass effect 3 In truth, the only answer to that question can be 'Mass Effect Andromeda'. Game development is like a conversation in 'Entish', it takes a long time to say. Each game is like an intense monologue. If there were aspects that needed revising, the next statement will be along in 2-3 years.
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Iakus
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Post by Iakus on Sept 20, 2016 16:09:01 GMT
but have they learned from the mistakes of mass effect 3? "There was no mistake, it still serves its purpose"
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Adhin
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Post by Adhin on Sept 20, 2016 16:20:23 GMT
I know that spot. And I like that spot. Combat like that encourages us to learn to use our resources efficiently. Much as the non-regenerating health encourages longer term thinking, adds do the same. I really like that DAI discourages using all your tools in every encounter. And since I quite enjoy DAI's combat (especially with the tactical camera, which I understand doesn't work well with a controller), I'm happy to spend time engaging in it. Combat is resource management, and having the potential for sudden bear attacks makes that resource management more fun. Most modern games (even DAO did this) encourage the player to expend all of their resources in each encounter, and that makes combat less interesting, I think. Decisions should be more complicated than that. DAI's non-regenerating health and unpredictable encounters are better, I think. I like DAI combat, and I do like a more resource managed instead of the throw all of it out immediately and all that. That area is just awkward though from a 'wtf is going on' point of view. If I was in a dungeon and spiders kept crawling out of holes in the ceiling or something and it was literally an endurance fight for survival that'd be awesome and I'd welcome it. If I 'm fighting a constant stream of bears and assassins in an area purely because it has a wonky respawn timer compared to everything else? That's just an obvious glaring value that's not set properly instead of it making much sense for the area. Sides the bears would be just as likely to fight eachother then fight my team IF they where even going to attack us at all. Which is just gaming in general I guess. All predator animals are always 100% hostile aggro to the max because video games fuck yeeaaahh. When you know, realistically that bear would see us by a good bit away and generally avoid the crap outa us. Kinda wish all the animals that where hostile where obviously demon possessed like the wolves. Freaky glowing green eyes aint natural man heh.
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Post by Cyonan on Sept 20, 2016 16:46:29 GMT
I know that spot. And I like that spot. Combat like that encourages us to learn to use our resources efficiently. Much as the non-regenerating health encourages longer term thinking, adds do the same. I really like that DAI discourages using all your tools in every encounter. And since I quite enjoy DAI's combat (especially with the tactical camera, which I understand doesn't work well with a controller), I'm happy to spend time engaging in it. Combat is resource management, and having the potential for sudden bear attacks makes that resource management more fun. Most modern games (even DAO did this) encourage the player to expend all of their resources in each encounter, and that makes combat less interesting, I think. Decisions should be more complicated than that. DAI's non-regenerating health and unpredictable encounters are better, I think. I'd argue that Inquisition encourages burning through your resources more so than Origins, specifically because mana/stamina regenerate very quickly in Inquisition. If I burn up all my mana at the start of a fight, I'll just have it all back in a few seconds so why not burn it up? Basic awareness will keep me from surprise adds showing up in 90% of situations, so that adds might show up isn't much of an argument. The only ability I have to actually think about if I really want to use it is rift powers, because that's a resource that generates rather slowly. Everything else is "Just use if it you want it, because it'll be ready again in a few seconds". The only thing that non regenerating health really brings is that A. You should be not stupid about AoEs if you have friendly fire on and B. You have to make semi-regular returns to camps to restock your potions. Health isn't that hard to replenish between fights when you have unlimited potions outside of major story missions. It's like the Vancian casting system in Baldur's Gate. In theory it limits how many spells I can cast per day. In reality I can just sleep after every fight if I want to.
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ioannisdenton
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Post by ioannisdenton on Sept 20, 2016 16:54:01 GMT
Dai had faults as any game has but i still love it! Hell , i dare say i enjoyed my 2nd playthrough of Dai way way more than wicther3 2nd. With that said what i read at OP made me happy! Onward to N7 day!
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Post by Sylvius the Mad on Sept 20, 2016 16:56:27 GMT
Did you play Witcher 1 and 2? Outside of tweaking the combat in those games, I think Witcher 3 is somewhat the same. And Witcher 1 and 2 are not that good... I tried the first one. I made it about 30 minutes in before the combat convinced me to stop. TW1's timing-based combat was abhorrent to me. The fixed protagonist didn't help, though Geralt isn't that different from the sort of character I might want to play. I like him more than Shepard, for example. But ME's combat is, at worst, dull. It's never frustrating.
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Post by Sylvius the Mad on Sept 20, 2016 17:36:28 GMT
I'd argue that Inquisition encourages burning through your resources more so than Origins, specifically because mana/stamina regenerate very quickly in Inquisition. If I burn up all my mana at the start of a fight, I'll just have it all back in a few seconds so why not burn it up? The cooldowns make the most difference in DAI, I find. Abilities with specific applications need to be kept available for when they're needed. It creates an incentive to maintain basic awareness. Otherwise you could plow ahead mindlessly. I didn't like having to replenish potions, so I always tried to get through encounters without using any. Fast travel probably makes replenishing potions too easy. Still, I avoided it. You can play that way, but I would find that less fun. But that is exactly how I played NWN, and I was happy to be able to do so.
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Post by Heimdall on Sept 20, 2016 17:54:51 GMT
Did you play Witcher 1 and 2? Outside of tweaking the combat in those games, I think Witcher 3 is somewhat the same. And Witcher 1 and 2 are not that good... I tried the first one. I made it about 30 minutes in before the combat convinced me to stop. TW1's timing-based combat was abhorrent to me. The fixed protagonist didn't help, though Geralt isn't that different from the sort of character I might want to play. I like him more than Shepard, for example. But ME's combat is, at worst, dull. It's never frustrating. TW2 was an improvement over the first game in terms of gameplay, with less of a rhythm based system of combat. It is still very action oriented though and has problems of its own. You need to roll a lot. I will say that I enjoyed the story and that act 2 is completely different depending on choices in the previous act. I have the third game, and I've been meaning to get around to playing past the first ten minutes for about a year now...
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Post by Cyonan on Sept 20, 2016 17:59:02 GMT
The cooldowns make the most difference in DAI, I find. Abilities with specific applications need to be kept available for when they're needed. Maybe it's just cause I've played WoW for so long, but I don't consider anything under a 30 second cooldown to be worth holding onto "just in case" which covers the vast majority of abilities in Inquisition on top of the fact that many of them have ways to reduce their cooldowns further by spamming more abilities. If I use Fade Step to re-position myself, it'll be only 12 seconds before I can use it again which is really quick. Sure but the claim was that there was an incentive to conserve your resource, yet I'm not seeing that anywhere. Again though, the claim was that DA:I encourages proper resource management as opposed to just unleashing everything every fight. The fact that you opted not to do things which negates the need to do any of that doesn't mean that the game actively encourages it. You weren't rewarded for not stocking up on potions on a regular basis. That it allows you to play a resource management game is nice and all, but the game doesn't actually encourage you to do it. It provides you with all the tools to completely ignore it and provides no real reward for doing it(assuming the player derives no joy from playing that way).
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Post by General Mahad on Sept 20, 2016 18:11:54 GMT
I really hope they don't get rid of respawning foes, call it what you will, but I don't enjoy exploring areas that are lifeless and empty. I'd just hope they slow down the respawn rate a bit. I hate killing one mob, a second mob, then turn around and see the original (or perhaps something else) has already returned. Especially bad with bears... That I agree with, you kill a few bandits and you turn around and there's a bear squad charging you going RAWWW. It's like Red Dead Redemption all over again.
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DragonEffect
N2
Pathfinding my way through life.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda
Posts: 209 Likes: 460
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DragonEffect
Pathfinding my way through life.
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dragoneffect
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by DragonEffect on Sept 20, 2016 19:19:25 GMT
I wouldn't have minded the fetch quests if there had been worthy quests, full of content.
But most of them were just kill X number of animals, activate device on remote location, go find random person/object lost somewhere, stuff that made no difference at all.
If they were trying to make an MMO-style kind of game, the quests had to matter. You had to feel you were exploring each area and discovering rare secrets connected to lore, history, magic, the Fade and other things that peak your interest. They had to convince you that exploring the map was exciting and prone to uncover things that would be tremendously useful for you and the Inquisition. Sadly, they failed.
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sifr
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
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Post by Sifr on Sept 20, 2016 21:29:40 GMT
I never found the fetch quests annoying and think the complaints are overblown, although I can understand why some might find them tedious.
Let's just hope that's not all Bioware took away as issues that need to be fixed, when there were genuine real problems with the story at times, various plot elements had no payoff, some characters or companion lacked any kind of arc or plot relevance, there were no real stakes after Skyhold and Corypheus was very thinly drawn as a main villain.
Compared to those issues... a fetch quest is hardly a deal-breaking flaw of the game?
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Pounce de León
Praise the Justicat!
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Post by Pounce de León on Sept 20, 2016 22:01:54 GMT
This should really be the beginning and end of this discussion. I generally prefer games with at least some degree of narrative pacing, but they can make a game 200 hours long for all I care as long as the side content is fleshed out enough to make it interesting. I actually didn't think it was possible to make a narrative-focused open world game until I played Witcher 3, but now I know everyone was just doing it wrong. I feel as though I really need to pkay TW3 so I can meaningfully engage in discussions regarding it. Much as I played ME3 only so I could understand the complaints, I would like to play TW3 so see what's so great about it. But I dislike action combat. How difficult do you think it would be for someone who doesn't enjoy action combat to play TW3? The ME games were fine because they supported a pause-and-play style, which TW3 does not. And Skyrim worked for me because I could play as a stealth archer and snipe everything from range (and then mod the game to make close combat easier by having 5 companions with me). Is TW3 something I could get through, given that has action combat throughout? I've played TW1 and TW2. Sort of. I quit in TW1 in the first act when my inventory was cluttering up and still no chest in sight. I never got friends with the combat system. The death stroke was an escort mission when the game had some enemies spawn behind and kill the escorted. TW2 was a major improvement in story, character modelling and combat. It was very action oriented combat. It was a bit similar to DAI. However - they decided to put in fucking QTEs. Had to google how to beat the first boss for I always missed a crucial thing to jump onto the tentacle - instead I tried chopping it like the three others before. I don't remember there was any cue to do just that. Why would someone design a combat like this so very different in mechanics? Killing blow: There was a boss battle concluding the first chapter - in a room with barely enough space to dodge. I quit playing the game here. I guess you had to put traps and skills to better use but I couldn't be bothered. I never really figured out how to cycle the powers and couldn't really memorize what rune did what. It was easy to get into the swordplay but the powers din't really stick with me. I picked these up in the bargain bin and I'm quick to pass on games when it's not been a big investment (same with DA2). After 2 of the three games not even considering worth beyond the initial chapter I didn't try out the third. Maybe I'll pick TW3 up in a bargain bin some time to see what's it about. TW2 seemed promising from the story and character part - it's a shame. Speaking of combat ruining games: I just couldn't stand the differently designed boss battles in Deus Ex Human Revolution. I'm a stealth player and you get locked into a small arena (just like TW2 first boss). Apparently a different team designed these. They can thank this team for me not picking up Mankind Divided. I played it once through and ragequit and uninstalled in the second playthrough when I got to the first boss.
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