3rdpig
N2
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by 3rdpig on Jul 17, 2017 22:50:41 GMT
What's been problematic about Frostbite, btw? Jason Schreier goes over it a bit in this Kotaku article: kotaku.com/the-story-behind-mass-effect-andromedas-troubled-five-1795886428tl;dr Frostbite is a VERY powerful game engine capable of producing extraordinary visuals as shown by Star Wars Battlefront 1 and 2. However, Frostbite's very hard to work with. DICE knows it pretty well because it's been their engine for years, but even they managed to produce a shithole of a game with it (BF4). I believe Bioware said they had trouble getting Frostbite to work with Inquisition, and it happened again with Andromeda. Even though the Inquisition team had made some necessary improvements to Frostbite, not all could be used by the Andromeda team, including the animation rig. A developer Schreier interviews puts it this way, "Frostbite is a sports car. Not even a sports car, a Formula 1. When it does something well, it does it extremely well. When it doesn’t do something, it really doesn’t do something." In fact, Frostbite doesn't come with a built-in animation rig. An animation rig has basically been "duct taped" to Frostbite to compensate. That's a great article, thanks for posting it. He confirmed everything I expected, including that this game wasn't in development for 5 years, that it was closer to 2 years, the rest was spent on bickering, floundering around and general masturbation.
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treoir
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by treoir on Jul 17, 2017 23:49:38 GMT
Generally used to refer to performances that border on unprofessional. The intended audience would have been similarly disappointed if the person had delivered the performance by speakerphone, in order to spend more time on leisurely pursuits. to put in a half assed effort at something, but complete it. Often pertaining to work which is complete and pretending to have worked a long time on, when in fact little to no effort was put into it. Derived from deciding to not physically attend a meeting in, but rather to be present by phone only. Add to that the obvious customer facing issues like all characters using the same dodge and other animations (outsourced), the use of a known problematic engine, seemingly untested and broken content, etc. Of course, I am not saying it is not salvageable, it's just they lack the ability (in respect to available man hours and possibly talent) to do so. Oh, sure, I'll agree that it has a lot of [unprofessional] flaws. But it also shows some serious signs of people having put significant effort into it.
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pheabus2005
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Gone with the netcode
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
Origin: pheabus2005
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by pheabus2005 on Jul 18, 2017 0:13:44 GMT
What the game really needs? Korean model with boob physics and jiggly bumbum. I mean, if devs can blatantly disregard the game lore, why should fans care about it? At least I don't think Korean models, had they been introduced into AMP, would hurt the franchise more than the 3-colored weapon variants, or the game itself.
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Post by mrfuddyduddy on Jul 18, 2017 3:03:06 GMT
What this game needs is Bulwark I, Siphon I, Concussive I. Characters X. And nothing more. I would settle for them taking one of the zeros off the end of every pack, so you can do 1 Platinum game and buy 10 Arsenal or Reserve packs after every match. What's funny is that there would still be an absurdly long grind to max your manifest.
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Scathane
N4
Space Pirate
🚀🥃🏴☠
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Dragon Age The Veilguard
Origin: Scathane
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Post by Scathane on Jul 18, 2017 5:32:52 GMT
What's been problematic about Frostbite, btw? Jason Schreier goes over it a bit in this Kotaku article: kotaku.com/the-story-behind-mass-effect-andromedas-troubled-five-1795886428tl;dr Frostbite is a VERY powerful game engine capable of producing extraordinary visuals as shown by Star Wars Battlefront 1 and 2. However, Frostbite's very hard to work with. DICE knows it pretty well because it's been their engine for years, but even they managed to produce a shithole of a game with it (BF4). I believe Bioware said they had trouble getting Frostbite to work with Inquisition, and it happened again with Andromeda. Even though the Inquisition team had made some necessary improvements to Frostbite, not all could be used by the Andromeda team, including the animation rig. A developer Schreier interviews puts it this way, "Frostbite is a sports car. Not even a sports car, a Formula 1. When it does something well, it does it extremely well. When it doesn’t do something, it really doesn’t do something." In fact, Frostbite doesn't come with a built-in animation rig. An animation rig has basically been "duct taped" to Frostbite to compensate. Ah, yes, the Kotaku article... Jason Schreier seems to be somewhat of an oracle these days, don't you think? The problem is, however, we have no way of knowing if there's an ounce of truth to his article and neither do we know if his sources are (ex-)Bioware devs nor if he has any sources at all. I am aware that reputable newspapers around the world keep their sources covered all the time but then, Kotaku isn't a reputable newspaper in the sense that they adhere to any journalistic accountability standards, as far as I know. Moreover, this wasn't exactly what I meant to ask. The poster before me casually names Frostbite being 'a known problematic' engine as one of the issues with MEA, something which I've seen uttered by other people on the webs as well. When I surf around for articles, however, most of them seem to agree that Frostbite is more than a decent engine. Apart from Battlefield 1, just as you say, I couldn't find articles with any big problems for other games. And not all of these games were made by DICE.
With reference the Kotaku article oracle, if Frostbite doesn't have an animation rig, than it didn't have that for other games either, yet only MEA had big animation problems. So that's more on Bioware, I think. There's already a nice thread about this here on BSN, btw: bsn.boards.net/thread/6699/frostbite-engine-mistakeLot of people there say the same thing: it isn't Frostbite that effed up in the animation department, it's Bioware. Buuut, I have only played Frostbite with DAI, Battlefront and Andromeda hence my question as to how other people think Frostbite is known to be problematic...
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Post by onehitparry on Jul 18, 2017 5:41:01 GMT
So far the explanations are 1) BW did a poor job despite having a good game game engine 2) BW did a poor job because the game engine didn't work. Without any further options presented to me, I choose to believe option 2, which I find slightly less disappointing.
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Spectr61
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem
Origin: Spectr61
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Post by Spectr61 on Jul 18, 2017 8:21:17 GMT
Looking good is important, but more important is performance.
On PC, with Frostbite, in MP, Biower has blown it with both DAIMP and MEAMP compared to ME3MP and it's Unreal engine.
Both DAI and MEA look really good at times, but damm, compare movement. Among a host of other things.
Maybe Frostbite has a steep learning curve. But years?
Sheesh.
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Post by Pounce de León on Jul 18, 2017 8:56:56 GMT
I played 4 Frostite games.
One generic shooter I forgot the name of. It was mostly grey environments. Urban combat. No performance issues.
DAI, worked fine on my system. Long loading times. Glitchy MP - SP wasn't that glitchy. (Horrible maps though. Fucking Jump and Run levels - without being able to jump.)
BF1 - wow, high fidelity! Not bad a combat gameplay. And half a year of random crashes they couldn't figure out fixing. Last BF I bought, that's for sure. FU, Dice!
MEA - rather medium in fidelity compared to BF1, in SP performance is OK until I play for prolonged time, then the system tanks. Hogs memory like no tomorrow. MP performance is much better.
I don't think the engine is bad - it just seems it's kinda quirky to work with. That BF1 was producing random crashes with apparently no clue from the devs to fix or mitigate it is a dealbreaker. Will the next FB game give me the same problems.
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QU67
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Post by QU67 on Jul 18, 2017 10:01:56 GMT
Jason Schreier goes over it a bit in this Kotaku article: kotaku.com/the-story-behind-mass-effect-andromedas-troubled-five-1795886428tl;dr Frostbite is a VERY powerful game engine capable of producing extraordinary visuals as shown by Star Wars Battlefront 1 and 2. However, Frostbite's very hard to work with. DICE knows it pretty well because it's been their engine for years, but even they managed to produce a shithole of a game with it (BF4). I believe Bioware said they had trouble getting Frostbite to work with Inquisition, and it happened again with Andromeda. Even though the Inquisition team had made some necessary improvements to Frostbite, not all could be used by the Andromeda team, including the animation rig. A developer Schreier interviews puts it this way, "Frostbite is a sports car. Not even a sports car, a Formula 1. When it does something well, it does it extremely well. When it doesn’t do something, it really doesn’t do something." In fact, Frostbite doesn't come with a built-in animation rig. An animation rig has basically been "duct taped" to Frostbite to compensate. Ah, yes, the Kotaku article... Jason Schreier seems to be somewhat of an oracle these days, don't you think? The problem is, however, we have no way of knowing if there's an ounce of truth to his article and neither do we know if his sources are (ex-)Bioware devs nor if he has any sources at all. I am aware that reputable newspapers around the world keep their sources covered all the time but then, Kotaku isn't a reputable newspaper in the sense that they adhere to any journalistic accountability standards, as far as I know. Moreover, this wasn't exactly what I meant to ask. The poster before me casually names Frostbite being 'a known problematic' engine as one of the issues with MEA, something which I've seen uttered by other people on the webs as well. When I surf around for articles, however, most of them seem to agree that Frostbite is more than a decent engine. Apart from Battlefield 1, just as you say, I couldn't find articles with any big problems for other games. And not all of these games were made by DICE.
With reference the Kotaku article oracle, if Frostbite doesn't have an animation rig, than it didn't have that for other games either, yet only MEA had big animation problems. So that's more on Bioware, I think. There's already a nice thread about this here on BSN, btw: bsn.boards.net/thread/6699/frostbite-engine-mistakeLot of people there say the same thing: it isn't Frostbite that effed up in the animation department, it's Bioware. Buuut, I have only played Frostbite with DAI, Battlefront and Andromeda hence my question as to how other people think Frostbite is known to be problematic... I did go a bit heavy on Frostbite 3. Unless the tool is inherently broken (which Frostbite is not), it comes down to how the user wields said tool. And Bioware's proven they're not great with Frostbite. That was a mistake of wording on my part. You asked what was problematic with Frostbite, and I laid out what was said in the article with a bit of my own knowledge thrown in as well. My apologies that I did not separate the two more clearly. I will try to do better in the future. I must say though, I do love you use the "fake news" angle and then link a BSN thread to justify your position. I linked an article from a videogame news website, which admittedly has the accountability of Breitbart's retarded-ginger-step-cousin. You call that out, but a BSN thread has the accountability of 4chan's retarded-ginger-step-cousin. One is a "news outlet" that hires people to write for them and holds them to some sort of loose journalistic standard (maybe), the other one openly allows anyone and their dog to write almost whatever they want and holds them to no journalistic standard. It's admittedly the difference between a wet pile of shit on tile and a wet pile of shit on carpet, but it's a difference. I'll keep my eyes out for anything that debunks Schreier's story, but until that point it's my best source of information on what happened with Andromeda, and how Frostbite and Bioware's inability to use it contributed to the game's problems.
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Scathane
N4
Space Pirate
🚀🥃🏴☠
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Dragon Age The Veilguard
Origin: Scathane
Posts: 1,539 Likes: 3,093
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Post by Scathane on Jul 18, 2017 10:35:51 GMT
I did go a bit heavy on Frostbite 3. Unless the tool is inherently broken (which Frostbite is not), it comes down to how the user wields said tool. And Bioware's proven they're not great with Frostbite. That was a mistake of wording on my part. You asked what was problematic with Frostbite, and I laid out what was said in the article with a bit of my own knowledge thrown in as well. My apologies that I did not separate the two more clearly. I will try to do better in the future. I must say though, I do love you use the "fake news" angle and then link a BSN thread to justify your position. I linked an article from a videogame news website, which admittedly has the accountability of Breitbart's retarded-ginger-step-cousin. You call that out, but a BSN thread has the accountability of 4chan's retarded-ginger-step-cousin. One is a "news outlet" that hires people to write for them and holds them to some sort of loose journalistic standard (maybe), the other one openly allows anyone and their dog to write almost whatever they want and holds them to no journalistic standard. It's admittedly the difference between a wet pile of shit on tile and a wet pile of shit on carpet, but it's a difference. I'll keep my eyes out for anything that debunks Schreier's story, but until that point it's my best source of information on what happened with Andromeda, and how Frostbite and Bioware's inability to use it contributed to the game's problems. There's really no need for apologies of any kind. Yet, I didn't mean to use any angle (let alone ' the [insert adjective] angle') but rather just to share what I think. The same goes for the BSN thread: I'm not justifying anything, I just share what I've read there. And sure, most articles I found on the web more or less say Frostbite is fine and so do the opinions in aforesaid BSN thread, so that leads me to think the same... but justification of my position? It's the other way around, really: someone states Frostbite is 'a known problematic' engine and I've asked about the justification for that. The Kotaku article doesn't provide it by quoting an anonymous developer, anyway. Lastly, sources of information can't really be best until proven wrong, if you ask me. Stories that are proven wrong were always bad sources of information, just as stories that are true but not believed were always good ones: the act of proving wrong or right doesn't change the quality of the information source...
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