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Post by gethadept on Jul 18, 2017 14:28:41 GMT
Two simple daily challenges with each challenge giving 30 MF is waste of opportunity in my opinion.
There should be more challenges with way better rewards.
For example, 5 daily challenges with 50 MF each then free Expert pack or something better when you complete all 5.
I really think MEAMP is missing out with poorly integrated daily challenges.
Daily challenges should encourage people to play more.
I simply don`t believe current daily challenges add anything meaningful to the game when it needs every damn help to keep the number of active players up.
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by JRandall0308 on Jul 18, 2017 14:30:08 GMT
They did say it was a work in progress that they snuck into an earlier than normal release. Basically it's free 30 MF so quit yer bitchin.
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Post by gethadept on Jul 18, 2017 14:31:33 GMT
They did say it was a work in progress that they snuck into an earlier than normal release. Basically it's free 30 MF so quit yer bitchin. It`s not free 30 MF.
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Post by JRandall0308 on Jul 18, 2017 14:38:38 GMT
OK it's 15 minutes for 30 MF.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 18, 2017 14:42:10 GMT
5 Daily Challenges is too much. Two "any difficulty" Dailies ("just play for an hour" type), one Platinum Daily (to reward the achievement), and two Weeklies (cumulative damage points kind) would be preferable imo
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Post by gethadept on Jul 18, 2017 14:44:41 GMT
5 Daily Challenges is too much. Two "any difficulty" Dailies, one Platinum Daily, and two Weeklies would be preferable imo My suggestion is just an example. There would be definitely better ideas out there. With my suggestion... players still lose nothing. They still earn more MF, and I wanted to reward players who spend more than an hour daily with extra expert pack. lol Anything to promote gameplay and encourage to play people more. There isn`t much left for BW to touch.. but daily challenge is easier one to work with.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 18, 2017 14:49:54 GMT
5 Daily Challenges is too much. Two "any difficulty" Dailies, one Platinum Daily, and two Weeklies would be preferable imo My suggestion is just an example. There would be definitely better ideas out there. With my suggestion... players still lose nothing. They still earn more MF, and I wanted to reward players who spend more than an hour daily with extra expert pack. lol Anything to promote gameplay and encourage to play people more. There isn`t much left for BW to touch.. but daily challenge is easier one to work with. No, but 5 Dailies will really punish the folks that cannot play each day every day, and say do longer sessions on the weekends when they do have time. Not everyone can play 2-3 hrs a day, that is why some games have catch-up rules and Weeklies so you can have a bit more flexibility with when you put your time in (for example putting in 8 hrs on a weekend), and not create even more player segregation. The game already rewards folks who play more and better by paying out more credits for harder matches. If you would lose 250 MF each day every day on the days you are dead tired from work, or have chores to run etc, you will be left in the dust by those who do not.
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Scathane
N4
Space Pirate
🚀🥃🏴☠
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Dragon Age The Veilguard
Origin: Scathane
Posts: 1,539 Likes: 3,093
inherit
Space Pirate
8301
0
Nov 28, 2024 11:24:38 GMT
3,093
Scathane
🚀🥃🏴☠
1,539
May 2017
scathane
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Dragon Age The Veilguard
Scathane
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Post by Scathane on Jul 18, 2017 14:57:20 GMT
I'm still voting for weekend-long challenges that give a reward only when the community goal has been met...
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Post by gethadept on Jul 18, 2017 14:59:01 GMT
My suggestion is just an example. There would be definitely better ideas out there. With my suggestion... players still lose nothing. They still earn more MF, and I wanted to reward players who spend more than an hour daily with extra expert pack. lol Anything to promote gameplay and encourage to play people more. There isn`t much left for BW to touch.. but daily challenge is easier one to work with. No, but 5 Dailies will really punish the folks that cannot play each day every day, and say do longer sessions on the weekends when they do have time. Not everyone can play 2-3 hrs a day, that is why some games have catch-up rules and Weeklies so you can have a bit more flexibility with when you put your time in (for example putting in 8 hrs on a weekend), and not create even more player segregation. The game already rewards folks who play more and better by paying out more credits for harder matches. If you would lose 250 MF each day every day on the days you are dead tired from work, or have chores to run etc, you will be left in the dust by those who do not. So... you don`t like other people benefiting while you cannot play? ...That`s harsh... By the way.. the daily challenges can be simple as score xx amount or play xx number of games a day. Many other games do it simply to promote people continuously play games.
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Post by gethadept on Jul 18, 2017 14:59:43 GMT
I'm still voting for weekend-long challenges that give a reward only when the community goal has been met... Anything to promote more people to play for longer duration is better. Anything...
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To troll or not to pug, that's the question
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n7mith
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Mass Effect Andromeda
Mith0810
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Post by N7Mith on Jul 18, 2017 15:07:48 GMT
They could add weapon challenges. And make them different than apex. Not too many dailies though, I'm playing on 2 systems.
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Post by gethadept on Jul 18, 2017 15:09:35 GMT
They could add weapon challenges. And make them different than apex. Not too many dailies though, I'm playing on 2 systems. My main concern was not to pressure people with challenges... but simply to make doing challenges itself more exciting and rewarding. For example, BW can add daily challenge of play 3 games any difficulty and reward us like 20 MF for it. Nobody has to feel pressure about it yet everyone will get rewarded for playing daily. That`s something I want instead of them telling me to go play silver 2 games... :dumb:
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Post by dariat on Jul 18, 2017 15:17:13 GMT
I'm ok with two daily challenges.
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4,276
August 2016
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by JRandall0308 on Jul 18, 2017 15:17:22 GMT
Community challenges always seem to veer between 'community blows the goal out of the water in the first 2 hours' and 'community is so small the challenge is effectively impossible', with nothing in between.
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MrsFlyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyingKebab
N3
Madame of All Platforms, Mistress of Goof, Empress of Scrubbery
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Mass Effect Andromeda
Origin: MrsFlyingKebab
XBL Gamertag: MrsFlyingKebab
PSN: MrsFlyingKebab
Posts: 387 Likes: 2,333
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MrsFlyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyingKebab
Madame of All Platforms, Mistress of Goof, Empress of Scrubbery
387
Jun 24, 2017 18:37:34 GMT
June 2017
mrsflyingkebab
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Mass Effect Andromeda
MrsFlyingKebab
MrsFlyingKebab
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Post by MrsFlyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyingKebab on Jul 18, 2017 15:25:00 GMT
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jadedragonmtr
N3
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
Origin: JadeDragonMTR
Posts: 416 Likes: 600
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
JadeDragonMTR
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Post by jadedragonmtr on Jul 18, 2017 15:25:29 GMT
Community challenges always seem to veer between 'community blows the goal out of the water in the first 2 hours' and 'community is so small the challenge is effectively impossible', with nothing in between. perhaps a series of community goal challenges that cater to players of all levels. Starting ones are easy, anyone can complete, smaller rewards; then harder ones with bigger rewards and then the hardest ones only top 1% can complete. This way you get everyone to play, and reward their efforts and skills accordingly.
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Post by auronio on Jul 18, 2017 15:38:56 GMT
I’m a little bit tired of all that moan.
We bought a game. Basically a single player RPG with some multiplayer add-on. Officially not at the core of the game, but as it’s en vogue Bioware decided to put some substantial efforts into the MP part as well. (Some reason why they are going to prepare Anthem…).
I have no numbers at hand but MP leaderboard ranking goes up to the 100ks. Where number of copies sold most likely go into at least +1m, most likely meanwhile millions (low one digit number, but that’s my personal assumption). www.vgchartz.com/article/268027/mass-effect-andromeda-sells-an-estimated-103m-units-first-week-in-the-west-at-retail/
Let’s assume MP player base makes up for a 20-30% of total player base. Best case. (I know, here I will provoke opposition and protest…)
Argument: All changes, improvements, wishes whatsoever – I’m not questioning the validity of these requests themselves – are asked for a secondary theatre of war. Even if we assume with the modern shift to multiplayer set ups the focus of Bioware was/is also having MEA as kind of a test scenario for upcoming more sophisticated MP game releases.
I see it – what the …. is he talking about and what does this have to do with the OP’s question? Nothing and everything. MP (imho) is not as important as SP although it serves as a door opener for future releases (appetizer for the MP player base). Still MP player base – at least the little hardcore community – constantly moans about this and that and how little or at least not enough the in-game acquisitiveness is rewarded. I believe – Bioware couldn’t care less. It’s their game, they made the rules and even are in the position to constantly change the rules. What they did and still are doing. Not always to the better and if you asked me (of course you don’t) some of the detrimental changes being a direct reaction to overemphasized complaints from a minority with a distorted and deferred outcome to the greater average player base. Like the poor parent birds feeding always the most vocal noisy brats first, leading to the weaker ones being neglected and suffering or even dying.
Back to topic. For your in-game tools (characters and weapons) you pay with time. Either indirectly using your time for your job earning real money which is spent in the game or like working your way up in the game with playing it. Either way it takes life time – if you perceive the play as work or laborious you shouldn’t play in the first place. Each mission you play you earn credits which are used to collect/upgrade. Some missions reward on top of the credits mission funds which serve as an in-game currency to buy additional gear. Hence these mission funds are like an additional gift, small but noticeable over time. On top you can send with a second’s fingertip virtual strike teams out to farm additional credits for you which you even can’t access as a player. Imho a lot of courtesy already to even help the laziest player out there to slowly but consistently progress. You want more? Play more. Or don’t. But stop moaning.
The journey is the reward.
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Tallgeese_VII (Old,playing casual)
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Post by gethadept on Jul 18, 2017 16:01:15 GMT
I’m a little bit tired of all that moan.
We bought a game. Basically a single player RPG with some multiplayer add-on. Officially not at the core of the game, but as it’s en vogue Bioware decided to put some substantial efforts into the MP part as well. (Some reason why they are going to prepare Anthem…).
I have no numbers at hand but MP leaderboard ranking goes up to the 100ks. Where number of copies sold most likely go into at least +1m, most likely meanwhile millions (low one digit number, but that’s my personal assumption). www.vgchartz.com/article/268027/mass-effect-andromeda-sells-an-estimated-103m-units-first-week-in-the-west-at-retail/
Let’s assume MP player base makes up for a 20-30% of total player base. Best case. (I know, here I will provoke opposition and protest…)
Argument: All changes, improvements, wishes whatsoever – I’m not questioning the validity of these requests themselves – are asked for a secondary theatre of war. Even if we assume with the modern shift to multiplayer set ups the focus of Bioware was/is also having MEA as kind of a test scenario for upcoming more sophisticated MP game releases.
I see it – what the …. is he talking about and what does this have to do with the OP’s question? Nothing and everything. MP (imho) is not as important as SP although it serves as a door opener for future releases (appetizer for the MP player base). Still MP player base – at least the little hardcore community – constantly moans about this and that and how little or at least not enough the in-game acquisitiveness is rewarded. I believe – Bioware couldn’t care less. It’s their game, they made the rules and even are in the position to constantly change the rules. What they did and still are doing. Not always to the better and if you asked me (of course you don’t) some of the detrimental changes being a direct reaction to overemphasized complaints from a minority with a distorted and deferred outcome to the greater average player base. Like the poor parent birds feeding always the most vocal noisy brats first, leading to the weaker ones being neglected and suffering or even dying.
Back to topic. For your in-game tools (characters and weapons) you pay with time. Either indirectly using your time for your job earning real money which is spent in the game or like working your way up in the game with playing it. Either way it takes life time – if you perceive the play as work or laborious you shouldn’t play in the first place. Each mission you play you earn credits which are used to collect/upgrade. Some missions reward on top of the credits mission funds which serve as an in-game currency to buy additional gear. Hence these mission funds are like an additional gift, small but noticeable over time. On top you can send with a second’s fingertip virtual strike teams out to farm additional credits for you which you even can’t access as a player. Imho a lot of courtesy already to even help the laziest player out there to slowly but consistently progress. You want more? Play more. Or don’t. But stop moaning.
The journey is the reward.
So I talk about small improvement which BW acknowledged as well for need for improvement, and it is moaning? Don`t be a sheep.
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MrsFlyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyingKebab
N3
Madame of All Platforms, Mistress of Goof, Empress of Scrubbery
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Mass Effect Andromeda
Origin: MrsFlyingKebab
XBL Gamertag: MrsFlyingKebab
PSN: MrsFlyingKebab
Posts: 387 Likes: 2,333
inherit
8814
0
2,333
MrsFlyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyingKebab
Madame of All Platforms, Mistress of Goof, Empress of Scrubbery
387
Jun 24, 2017 18:37:34 GMT
June 2017
mrsflyingkebab
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Mass Effect Andromeda
MrsFlyingKebab
MrsFlyingKebab
MrsFlyingKebab
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Post by MrsFlyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyingKebab on Jul 18, 2017 16:10:24 GMT
I’m a little bit tired of all that moan.
We bought a game. Basically a single player RPG with some multiplayer add-on. Officially not at the core of the game, but as it’s en vogue Bioware decided to put some substantial efforts into the MP part as well. (Some reason why they are going to prepare Anthem…).I would think after the success of ME3 MP they knew how popular the MP would be. I believe – Bioware couldn’t care less. It’s their game, they made the rules and even are in the position to constantly change the rules. What they did and still are doing. Not always to the better and if you asked me (of course you don’t) some of the detrimental changes being a direct reaction to overemphasized complaints from a minority with a distorted and deferred outcome to the greater average player base.Absolutely agree here. They did/are doing what they want. The journey is the reward.It should be, but it isn't. There is a huge difference in me taking a weeks vacation to walk the Black Forest and enjoy those sights and eat sausages and drink beer, than take a year off and hitchhike my way halfway round the world to go and see the Amazon. One is feasible with the time I have available, the other isn't. In case the analogy went too far, the Black forest is my ME3 MP manifest, the Amazon is my MEA manifest. The cost-benefit with my time and the amount of fun I have doing those walks grinds is much higher in ME3 than MEA. And we're whining because they keep making it worse!! At least with the weekend challenges in ME3 we got a guaranteed UR!
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Member is Online
Nov 28, 2024 17:42:11 GMT
4,492
biggydx
2,644
Apr 17, 2017 16:08:05 GMT
April 2017
biggydx
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
BiggyMD
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Post by biggydx on Jul 18, 2017 16:12:19 GMT
Could also just tier the MF rewards we get from Strike/APEX missions better. Maybe it could be 5/10/15MF for Bronze/Silver/Gold strike missions, and 10/15/20MF for Bronze/Silver/Gold apex missions.
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Posts: 0
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Nov 28, 2024 17:47:02 GMT
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 18, 2017 16:13:11 GMT
No, but 5 Dailies will really punish the folks that cannot play each day every day, and say do longer sessions on the weekends when they do have time. Not everyone can play 2-3 hrs a day, that is why some games have catch-up rules and Weeklies so you can have a bit more flexibility with when you put your time in (for example putting in 8 hrs on a weekend), and not create even more player segregation. The game already rewards folks who play more and better by paying out more credits for harder matches. If you would lose 250 MF each day every day on the days you are dead tired from work, or have chores to run etc, you will be left in the dust by those who do not. So... you don`t like other people benefiting while you cannot play? ...That`s harsh... By the way.. the daily challenges can be simple as score xx amount or play xx number of games a day. Many other games do it simply to promote people continuously play games. I am just suggesting redistributing a little between Dailies and Weeklies to accommodate more players with different playtimes, and not make the system needlessly discouraging and dictating a certain number of hours per day every day, as it in my experience can go overboard and actually be counter to the purpose to encourage folks to play. Right now one thing is right about the Dailies is that they are fairily light and do not turn the game into another chore, when you sit there dying and hating it, but trying to grind out your points.
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Post by auronio on Jul 18, 2017 16:13:12 GMT
I’m a little bit tired of all that moan.
We bought a game. Basically a single player RPG with some multiplayer add-on. Officially not at the core of the game, but as it’s en vogue Bioware decided to put some substantial efforts into the MP part as well. (Some reason why they are going to prepare Anthem…).
I have no numbers at hand but MP leaderboard ranking goes up to the 100ks. Where number of copies sold most likely go into at least +1m, most likely meanwhile millions (low one digit number, but that’s my personal assumption). www.vgchartz.com/article/268027/mass-effect-andromeda-sells-an-estimated-103m-units-first-week-in-the-west-at-retail/
Let’s assume MP player base makes up for a 20-30% of total player base. Best case. (I know, here I will provoke opposition and protest…)
Argument: All changes, improvements, wishes whatsoever – I’m not questioning the validity of these requests themselves – are asked for a secondary theatre of war. Even if we assume with the modern shift to multiplayer set ups the focus of Bioware was/is also having MEA as kind of a test scenario for upcoming more sophisticated MP game releases.
I see it – what the …. is he talking about and what does this have to do with the OP’s question? Nothing and everything. MP (imho) is not as important as SP although it serves as a door opener for future releases (appetizer for the MP player base). Still MP player base – at least the little hardcore community – constantly moans about this and that and how little or at least not enough the in-game acquisitiveness is rewarded. I believe – Bioware couldn’t care less. It’s their game, they made the rules and even are in the position to constantly change the rules. What they did and still are doing. Not always to the better and if you asked me (of course you don’t) some of the detrimental changes being a direct reaction to overemphasized complaints from a minority with a distorted and deferred outcome to the greater average player base. Like the poor parent birds feeding always the most vocal noisy brats first, leading to the weaker ones being neglected and suffering or even dying.
Back to topic. For your in-game tools (characters and weapons) you pay with time. Either indirectly using your time for your job earning real money which is spent in the game or like working your way up in the game with playing it. Either way it takes life time – if you perceive the play as work or laborious you shouldn’t play in the first place. Each mission you play you earn credits which are used to collect/upgrade. Some missions reward on top of the credits mission funds which serve as an in-game currency to buy additional gear. Hence these mission funds are like an additional gift, small but noticeable over time. On top you can send with a second’s fingertip virtual strike teams out to farm additional credits for you which you even can’t access as a player. Imho a lot of courtesy already to even help the laziest player out there to slowly but consistently progress. You want more? Play more. Or don’t. But stop moaning.
The journey is the reward.
So I talk about small improvement which BW acknowledged as well for need for improvement, and it is moaning? Don`t be a sheep. It's not specifically you or this thread. More in general fed up with predominant focusing on negatives.
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Post by auronio on Jul 18, 2017 16:14:54 GMT
I’m a little bit tired of all that moan.
We bought a game. Basically a single player RPG with some multiplayer add-on. Officially not at the core of the game, but as it’s en vogue Bioware decided to put some substantial efforts into the MP part as well. (Some reason why they are going to prepare Anthem…).I would think after the success of ME3 MP they knew how popular the MP would be. I believe – Bioware couldn’t care less. It’s their game, they made the rules and even are in the position to constantly change the rules. What they did and still are doing. Not always to the better and if you asked me (of course you don’t) some of the detrimental changes being a direct reaction to overemphasized complaints from a minority with a distorted and deferred outcome to the greater average player base.Absolutely agree here. They did/are doing what they want. The journey is the reward.It should be, but it isn't. There is a huge difference in me taking a weeks vacation to walk the Black Forest and enjoy those sights and eat sausages and drink beer, than take a year off and hitchhike my way halfway round the world to go and see the Amazon. One is feasible with the time I have available, the other isn't. In case the analogy went too far, the Black forest is my ME3 MP manifest, the Amazon is my MEA manifest. The cost-benefit with my time and the amount of fun I have doing those walks grinds is much higher in ME3 than MEA. And we're whining because they keep making it worse!! At least with the weekend challenges in ME3 we got a guaranteed UR! Black forrest = German?
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inherit
145
0
Aug 22, 2016 19:29:11 GMT
10,121
Kenny Bania
These pretzels are making me thirsty!!!
3,181
August 2016
b00g13man
Mass Effect Trilogy, Jade Empire
13218
8752
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Post by Kenny Bania on Jul 18, 2017 16:19:35 GMT
I’m a little bit tired of all that moan.
We bought a game. Basically a single player RPG with some multiplayer add-on. Officially not at the core of the game, but as it’s en vogue Bioware decided to put some substantial efforts into the MP part as well. (Some reason why they are going to prepare Anthem…).
I have no numbers at hand but MP leaderboard ranking goes up to the 100ks. Where number of copies sold most likely go into at least +1m, most likely meanwhile millions (low one digit number, but that’s my personal assumption). www.vgchartz.com/article/268027/mass-effect-andromeda-sells-an-estimated-103m-units-first-week-in-the-west-at-retail/
Let’s assume MP player base makes up for a 20-30% of total player base. Best case. (I know, here I will provoke opposition and protest…)
Argument: All changes, improvements, wishes whatsoever – I’m not questioning the validity of these requests themselves – are asked for a secondary theatre of war. Even if we assume with the modern shift to multiplayer set ups the focus of Bioware was/is also having MEA as kind of a test scenario for upcoming more sophisticated MP game releases.
I see it – what the …. is he talking about and what does this have to do with the OP’s question? Nothing and everything. MP (imho) is not as important as SP although it serves as a door opener for future releases (appetizer for the MP player base). Still MP player base – at least the little hardcore community – constantly moans about this and that and how little or at least not enough the in-game acquisitiveness is rewarded. I believe – Bioware couldn’t care less. It’s their game, they made the rules and even are in the position to constantly change the rules. What they did and still are doing. Not always to the better and if you asked me (of course you don’t) some of the detrimental changes being a direct reaction to overemphasized complaints from a minority with a distorted and deferred outcome to the greater average player base. Like the poor parent birds feeding always the most vocal noisy brats first, leading to the weaker ones being neglected and suffering or even dying.
Back to topic. For your in-game tools (characters and weapons) you pay with time. Either indirectly using your time for your job earning real money which is spent in the game or like working your way up in the game with playing it. Either way it takes life time – if you perceive the play as work or laborious you shouldn’t play in the first place. Each mission you play you earn credits which are used to collect/upgrade. Some missions reward on top of the credits mission funds which serve as an in-game currency to buy additional gear. Hence these mission funds are like an additional gift, small but noticeable over time. On top you can send with a second’s fingertip virtual strike teams out to farm additional credits for you which you even can’t access as a player. Imho a lot of courtesy already to even help the laziest player out there to slowly but consistently progress. You want more? Play more. Or don’t. But stop moaning.
The journey is the reward.
Didn't bother reading the rest of your post after this. Some people bought the game purely for the MP experience.
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MrsFlyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyingKebab
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Madame of All Platforms, Mistress of Goof, Empress of Scrubbery
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Mass Effect Andromeda
Origin: MrsFlyingKebab
XBL Gamertag: MrsFlyingKebab
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MrsFlyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyingKebab
Madame of All Platforms, Mistress of Goof, Empress of Scrubbery
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Jun 24, 2017 18:37:34 GMT
June 2017
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by MrsFlyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyingKebab on Jul 18, 2017 16:23:32 GMT
Yes, but I'm not German but you know, it takes a lot less effort to get there for me than the Amazon which was my point.... According to the tracker, I need to play rather a lot, and the game just isn't fun enough for that reward=/= effort
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