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Post by Liadan on Sept 20, 2016 17:32:05 GMT
I liked both but i enjoyed In Hushed Whispers more. I liked the dark future atmosphere, i prefer Samson and the red templars as antagonists than Calpernia and the Venatori and i prefer acquiring Dorian first.
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Post by opuspace on Sept 20, 2016 17:36:07 GMT
Wow, I thought Champions of the Just would outpace In Hushed Whispers. Others put it best when they said that the story pacing tends to make it slightly easier to justify investigating the Mages quest first since time is a factor and the Inquisition is in a rush. A free offer of alliance and a free chance to investigate Redcliffe simply just tipped things over to In Hushed Whispers. Personal taste has me saying that the dark future was a harder punch to the heart after seeing actual results if the Inquisitor fails.
That said, Champions of the Just feels more satisfying after recruiting the Templars. The Envy demon was lackluster and felt too much like an ego stroke for the Inquisitor compared to facing a world of their failure. But having Templars joining in the fight made me feel like the Inquisitor was getting their money's worth in the Alliance. Help them, and they'll pull their weight whereas none of the mages besides Dorian are able to help in battle during that mission. War Table missions with the Templars stand out more and you get more in depth interaction with this faction. Ser Barris will have his own cutscene of his promotion while Fiona is just...there.
In short, In Hushed Whispers fits the story thematically better to me while Champions of the Just does the gaming aspects better.
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Post by witchcocktor on Sept 20, 2016 18:17:57 GMT
If I go through a more serious playthrough, I go with IHW, because I want Dorian sooner and Samson as one of the villains. But I'm sad that I have to let go of Barris and the templars that I actually want to team up with. Shit, how do I feel about this again? Ugh, very mixed... I guess it's a heat of the moment kind of situation/decision.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 20, 2016 19:05:28 GMT
I've done both Champions of the Just and In Hushed Whispers. But I prefer Champions, because from a story perspective, Calpernia's tie in with Corypheus fits in better than Samson's. Samson is more about his Red Templars doing the "right" thing and his beef with Cullen than having a connection with Corypheus' plans. Also, when the Inquisitor allies with the Templars, Leliana notes in a conversation that having the Templars as allies boosts the Inquisition's reputation. Nobles and people around Thedas trust them more than allying with the rebel Mages. The other thing is the envy demon is a personal threat to the Inquisitor by showing what he/she can become if he/she's not careful with the power they possess.
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Sept 20, 2016 20:23:47 GMT
If it weren't for the time travel schtick, IHW would be pretty good. But I just can't abide resorting to time travel when it isn't the central premise of the entire plot -- and even sometimes then. Not because time travel itself is bad or impossible or whatever. It's because it's typically portrayed so poorly. As in this case. CotJ has everything lynroy said going for it, too. So it doesn't just win by default, for me.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 20, 2016 20:34:18 GMT
I liked the mission in IHW, having to keep coming back to help the Templars fight got on my nerves, kinda like the Winter Palace quest did.
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Post by ioannisdenton on Sept 22, 2016 16:24:06 GMT
I originaly was blown away by hushed whispers but after playing champions of the gust.. the latter seems more mature ,than time magic, has calpernia, and better atmoshpere. ALso the templarS holding the line was EPIC
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Post by Deleted on Sept 23, 2016 11:14:12 GMT
Champions of the Just. FOREVER!
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Post by Hrungr on Sept 23, 2016 14:51:44 GMT
While I definitely prefer the "Dark Future" In Hushed Whispers quest ( which has some great OOB regions to explore ) over the Templar one, I find Calpernia is easily the more interesting villain (along with her related quests). So the majority of my playthoughs have been with CotJ. In a way, I wished we didn't resolve the Mage/Templar issue so quickly so we could see some interaction between Calpernia and Samson.
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Post by Iakus on Sept 23, 2016 14:58:29 GMT
Champions of the Just.
It portrays the Templars more sympathetically than In Hushed Whispers does the mages.
Plus time travel stories are difficult to do well, and IHW also does not succeed.
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Post by cardbutton on Sept 23, 2016 15:09:53 GMT
In terms of actual fun factor ... oh man "Hushed Whispers" was just bonkers, Dorian just made that quest. I love Cole, dude is one of my favorites of all time, but man that Dorian sass really allows a player to ignore how strange and ridiculous the setting truly becomes when you realize Time Magic is now a thing. As for what Quest I actually go with, I normally got the "Champions of the Just" route. There is the Templar/Mage issue thing of course, which I believe many of us have more than vocal on what side we stand on, but mostly its because if I redo that I quest I get to spend its entirety pondering the reasons as to why the Templars have a multi flag pulley system already created to test visitors, when they do not often get visitors ... and when they do, would have little reason to test them. Its like a secret handshake or something. I can only assume they had A LOT of free time sitting on their asses waiting to get Magic Rock Syphilis.
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Post by spacev3gan on Sept 24, 2016 5:14:10 GMT
You get +6 permanent attribute points by taking Champions of the Just route. If roleplaying is not necessarily the deciding factor, Champions of the Just should be considered the best route as you will have a slightly stronger Inquisitor afterwards.
I have played both missions several times each though I personally tend to take the Templars route more often as I usually favor gameplay and combat over roleplaying. But that is just me.
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Post by Element Zero on Sept 24, 2016 6:02:51 GMT
While the atmosphere of IHW is interesting and fun, I find CotJ superior in nearly every other way.
After finally visiting the mages in Redcliff, the Inquisitor could very easily come away with a "WTF is wrong with these people?" type of outlook on the rebel mages. Not only was their initial rebellion very poorly timed, but now they've allied with Tevinter? Fiona has proven herself to be an idiot, and who knows why the others feel so beholden to her every word and decision. (I'm surprised she doesn't go "Full Orsino" at Haven, and turn into a corpse harvester. Sigh. I supported those mages.)
So, with an army of questionable rebel mages, who are now beholden to Tevinter, perched at Redcliff, it only makes sense to make another effort to speak to the Templars. They could suppress the Breach and provide aid against the Tevinter threat, should it materialize. Obviously, things get out of hand at Therinfal, the trip ends with an alliance (or conscription), and those batty ass mages invade.
This storyline makes a hell of a lot more sense than the time-travel nonsense served up in IHW. Though it is presented in a fun, lively fashion, IHW is still BS. Time-travel magic was a silly thing to introduce. Allying with the mages is an extremely desperate move, and I (generally) can't bring myself to do it. Meanwhile, allying with the Templars brings the needed power, as well as a bit of legitimacy and respectability. In the eyes of many people, it's the difference between allying with terrorists or the peacekeepers, though we know neither description is 100% accurate.
CotJ also gives us higher quality content later in the game, in the form of Ser Barris' and Calpernia's stories.
Lastly, one gets a pretty good introduction to Dorian during the initial meeting in Redcliff. You don't have to help the rebel mages in order to get a feel for who Dorian is, and whether he's a guy you'd want as part of your Inquisition. The same can't be said for Cole. If you want a good introduction to Cole, it's going to happen in CotJ. Maybe that's unfortunate, but that's how it was written.
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Post by cardbutton on Sept 24, 2016 6:19:32 GMT
While the atmosphere of IHW is interesting and fun, I find CotJ superior in nearly every other way. After finally visiting the mages in Redcliff, the Inquisitor could very easily come away with a "WTF is wrong with these people?" type of outlook on the rebel mages. Not only was their initial rebellion very poorly timed, but now they've allied with Tevinter? Fiona has proven herself to be an idiot, and who knows why the others feel so beholden to her every word and decision. (I'm surprised she doesn't go "Full Orsino" at Haven, and turn into a corpse harvester. Sigh. I supported those mages.) So, with an army of questionable rebel mages, who are now beholden to Tevinter, perched at Redcliff, it only makes sense to make another effort to speak to the Templars. They could suppress the Breach and provide aid against the Tevinter threat, should it materialize. Obviously, things get out of hand at Therinfal, the trip ends with an alliance (or conscription), and those batty ass mages invade. This storyline makes a hell of a lot more sense than the time-travel nonsense served up in IHW. Though it is presented in a fun, lively fashion, IHW is still BS. Time-travel magic was a silly thing to introduce. Allying with the mages is an extremely desperate move, and I (generally) can't bring myself to do it. Meanwhile, allying with the Templars brings the needed power, as well as a bit of legitimacy and respectability. In the eyes of many people, it's the difference between allying with terrorists or the peacekeepers, though we know neither description is 100% accurate. CotJ also gives us higher quality content later in the game, in the form of Ser Barris' and Calpernia's stories. Lastly, one gets a pretty good introduction to Dorian during the initial meeting in Redcliff. You don't have to help the rebel mages in order to get a feel for who Dorian is, and whether he's a guy you'd want as part of your Inquisition. The same can't be said for Cole. If you want a good introduction to Cole, it's going to happen in CotJ. Maybe that's unfortunate, but that's how it was written. Oh Man Calpernia and Barris just made the Mage/Templar decision so easy for me. Those two, the quests they give, the stories they tell ... hell the Table Ops that come with them, so worth the sacrifice of the Rebels of Redcliffe. So good!
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Post by gervaise21 on Sept 24, 2016 9:43:12 GMT
I actually found the CoJ route made more sense to me from a role playing perspective, even though I wanted to save the mages. If the game didn't flag up the fact that it would be impossible to do the latter if you went to the Templars first, there would definitely be no contest. I went to Redcliffe at Fiona's invitation but thereafter it made no sense to me that the only person capable of closing the breach would walk into a castle full of mages, led by a foreign power, knowing it was a trap, without considerably more assurance than having Leliana's agents and an unknown quantity in Dorian on hand. It only worked because they turned Dorian into the equivalent of the Thedas Dr. Who. I thought the Inquisitor summed it up perfectly when they were speaking with Dorian in the Chantry, I wanted a bit more to go on than "it's time magic, go for it."
Having played both routes, everything else makes the CoJ route more attractive. You have a reason for trusting Cole that simply does not exist on the IHW route. You get to see a different, and to my mind far more heroic side, to Dorian when he turns up to warn you of danger. You get a more credible and interesting lieutenant story to follow, plus learn more about Corypheus in the process. The world has far less red lyrium spikes (particularly noticeable in Crestwood). Any independent mages in Thedas are no longer led by Fiona. You can happily ignore time magic as a lore breaking factor in the world of Thedas and put any weirdness in Fiona's attitude down to blood magic manipulation.
That was one of the strangest things about IHW. Apart from those strange green circles on the ground I never noticed anything different about the way time was operating when we went to Redcliffe. I was being told it was randomly speeding up and slowing down by other people but I never experienced that for myself. Then you had to accept the totally bonkers explanation for Fiona's behaviour by Dorian. The idea that we were seeing a dark future that would occur if we failed would only be true with us dead/out of the picture. Everything we saw happened because we weren't there in the world at the time. The merging of the Fade and the real world occurred because of the lack of an anchor wielding Inquisitor to mend the tear, exactly the situation you are trying to avoid in taking the CoJ path. Apart from the information about Celene, which you also get on the CoJ path, I didn't feel there was anything in that future that helped you back in the present. So the idea that this was meant to give you an added impetus in stopping Corypheus didn't really work for me.
I feel the idea of choices is becoming rather over worked and the fact that this choice was ultimately irrelevant to the world at the end of Trespasser made me feel all the more that both plot lines should have been integrated into the whole story. Drop the stupid time magic and have a more conventional plotline in Redcliffe, involving blood magic that the Tevinter are known for and which Dorian would still be trying to prevent. Have a different outcome for the mages and Templars and how they view you, according to which group you enlist first, but still involve the storyline of both lieutenants. It made little sense that they would simply disappear because of the events in Redcliffe or Therinfall. If you manage to recruit the mages away from Corypheus, that was Alexius' failure, not Calpernia's; if she was more closely involved then she should have been seen in the dark future but she wasn't. If you managed to rescue the Templars from the corruption of Corypheus that was surely the failure of the envy demon pretending to be Lord Seeker Lucius, not Samson. There was never really an explanation for what became of the alternative lieutenant. If you do IHW then presumably Calpernia is still knocking around somewhere leading the remnant Venatori; if you do CoJ then Samson is still out there with his red lyrium enhanced armour and sidekick Madox. Why weren't either of them there in the Arbor Wilds with their respective forces?
Whatever happened to the time magic amulet? On top of all the other absurd aspects of the time travel plot, that was never explained. If you do IHW did it disintegrate on your return? What about all Alexius' notes on the process, which have all the theory available to do time magic provided you have sufficient power? If you did CoJ, then presumably the Venatori still have both the amulet and the notes after killing Alexius. Unless of course you take Dorian's words "it is as though they never existed" to mean that Alexius eventually managed to eradicate both himself and Felix from time. Was the lack of a reference to this an indication that we have not seen the last of time magic as a plot device?
Ultimately, at the end of Trespasser, we have a restored Circle, led by Vivienne, a independent College of Enchanters, and if anyone but Leliana is Divine, a restored Templar order, regardless of the path we took. So, from a story telling point of view, really what was the point of having a choice?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 24, 2016 9:58:01 GMT
Champions of the Just. It portrays the Templars more sympathetically than In Hushed Whispers does the mages. Plus time travel stories are difficult to do well, and IHW also does not succeed. I can't even sympathize with the mages any more... *sighs*
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Post by Element Zero on Sept 24, 2016 14:53:49 GMT
Champions of the Just. It portrays the Templars more sympathetically than In Hushed Whispers does the mages. Plus time travel stories are difficult to do well, and IHW also does not succeed. I can't even sympathize with the mages any more... *sighs* This, I think, is why IHW is so far ahead in this poll. People want to side with the mages. The problem is that they've completely lost their way. They chose the absolute worst possible time to assert their independence; they chose to follow an incompetent leader; and they choose follow her into servitude to Tevinter. What do these idiots (very dangerous idiots, as they've always been, that's the entire point) have to do to snap people out of it? When you have an army of scared, angry mages who have now seemingly been seized by a Tevinter sect loyal to "The Elder One", you need Templars. Honestly, typing this out, there's never been a situation screaming for the full application of the Rite of Annulment quite like this one. I guess the events that follow at Haven aren't so shocking. 🙁 I always supported the Kirkwall mages as Hawke, to the point that I never got the Templar/Viscount ending and trophy. (I need to fix that, even if I reload my save and replay the ending, afterward.) These rebels, though, are lost. They follow the fool Fiona too far to be saved, sadly, since the game doesn't allow us to return to Redcliff with Templar allies. I'm not sure that such a move would've been well received, but it could've been an epic RP effort.
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Post by thesupremedarkone on Sept 24, 2016 17:22:45 GMT
I can't even sympathize with the mages any more... *sighs* This, I think, is why IHW is so far ahead in this poll. People want to side with the mages. The problem is that they've completely lost their way. They chose the absolute worst possible time to assert their independence; they chose to follow an incompetent leader; and they choose follow her into servitude to Tevinter. What do these idiots (very dangerous idiots, as they've always been, that's the entire point) have to do to snap people out of it? When you have an army of scared, angry mages who have now seemingly been seized by a Tevinter sect loyal to "The Elder One", you need Templars. Honestly, typing this out, there's never been a situation screaming for the full application of the Rite of Annulment quite like this one. I guess the events that follow at Haven aren't so shocking. 🙁 I always supported the Kirkwall mages as Hawke, to the point that I never got the Templar/Viscount ending and trophy. (I need to fix that, even if I reload my save and replay the ending, afterward.) These rebels, though, are lost. They follow the fool Fiona too far to be saved, sadly, since the game doesn't allow us to return to Redcliff with Templar allies. I'm not sure that such a move would've been well received, but it could've been an epic RP effort. Have you actually considered that IHW is higher is because people think the quest is actually better? Also, when Templars openly complain about not killing mages when recruiting them, I happily left the Templars to die considering it just continues to confirm the negative beliefs I have about them.
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Post by cardbutton on Sept 24, 2016 17:40:16 GMT
This, I think, is why IHW is so far ahead in this poll. People want to side with the mages. The problem is that they've completely lost their way. They chose the absolute worst possible time to assert their independence; they chose to follow an incompetent leader; and they choose follow her into servitude to Tevinter. What do these idiots (very dangerous idiots, as they've always been, that's the entire point) have to do to snap people out of it? When you have an army of scared, angry mages who have now seemingly been seized by a Tevinter sect loyal to "The Elder One", you need Templars. Honestly, typing this out, there's never been a situation screaming for the full application of the Rite of Annulment quite like this one. I guess the events that follow at Haven aren't so shocking. 🙁 I always supported the Kirkwall mages as Hawke, to the point that I never got the Templar/Viscount ending and trophy. (I need to fix that, even if I reload my save and replay the ending, afterward.) These rebels, though, are lost. They follow the fool Fiona too far to be saved, sadly, since the game doesn't allow us to return to Redcliff with Templar allies. I'm not sure that such a move would've been well received, but it could've been an epic RP effort. Have you actually considered that IHW is higher is because people think the quest is actually better?
Also, when Templars openly complain about not killing mages when recruiting them, I happily left the Templars to die considering it just continues to confirm the negative beliefs I have about them. No you're right. In DA:I I am pro Templar and will more often go with their respective quest, but I have played both and as an Experience Dorian and "IHW" bring more entertainment value as than that of Cole and "CotJ". At least in my opinion. As for the Templars complaining, the Mages complain constantly as well. Their hatred for the Templars is one of those complaints.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 24, 2016 20:37:52 GMT
Have you actually considered that IHW is higher is because people think the quest is actually better?
Also, when Templars openly complain about not killing mages when recruiting them, I happily left the Templars to die considering it just continues to confirm the negative beliefs I have about them. No you're right. In DA:I I am pro Templar and will more often go with their respective quest, but I have played both and as an Experience Dorian and "IHW" bring more entertainment value as than that of Cole and "CotJ". At least in my opinion. As for the Templars complaining, the Mages complain constantly as well. Their hatred for the Templars is one of those complaints. They complain to the Inquisition in a way that makes me think that they want to go back to Circle... `
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Post by garrusfan1 on Sept 24, 2016 20:44:54 GMT
Honestly for the mission itself in hushed whispers was much better in my opinion. It hit harder emotionally with leliana and I am sympathetic to the mages. When you go to red cliff you hear ALOT of the mages saying they never wanted to rebel but once the vote to rebel was done they had no choice. I am far less sympathetic with the templars. All that said they are both good
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Post by Element Zero on Sept 25, 2016 0:46:38 GMT
This, I think, is why IHW is so far ahead in this poll. People want to side with the mages. The problem is that they've completely lost their way. They chose the absolute worst possible time to assert their independence; they chose to follow an incompetent leader; and they choose follow her into servitude to Tevinter. What do these idiots (very dangerous idiots, as they've always been, that's the entire point) have to do to snap people out of it? When you have an army of scared, angry mages who have now seemingly been seized by a Tevinter sect loyal to "The Elder One", you need Templars. Honestly, typing this out, there's never been a situation screaming for the full application of the Rite of Annulment quite like this one. I guess the events that follow at Haven aren't so shocking. 🙁 I always supported the Kirkwall mages as Hawke, to the point that I never got the Templar/Viscount ending and trophy. (I need to fix that, even if I reload my save and replay the ending, afterward.) These rebels, though, are lost. They follow the fool Fiona too far to be saved, sadly, since the game doesn't allow us to return to Redcliff with Templar allies. I'm not sure that such a move would've been well received, but it could've been an epic RP effort. Have you actually considered that IHW is higher is because people think the quest is actually better? Also, when Templars openly complain about not killing mages when recruiting them, I happily left the Templars to die considering it just continues to confirm the negative beliefs I have about them. There is no right or wrong choice. You don't need to defend your choice. I simply feel that CotJ is both better written and narratively superior. Of course I know that some simply enjoy IHW more on its own merits. It's a pretty cool quest, and I need to play it more often. I said in an earlier post that I thought it was superior in certain ways. I suspect many choose it, though, because of mage sympathies. The entire series had been pushing a mage sympathetic message all along, and many heard it loud and clear. I was very sympathetic, until they became too dangerous to trust. I needed allies, not dangerous liabilities in need of rescue. If I were a person living in the world of Thedas, even a mage, I couldn't see myself allying with the rebel mages. They've gone way too far down the road of insanity to be trusted as allies, under the circumstances. Perhaps the same could be said of the Templars by the end of the Therinfal quest. A big difference is that I can't rethink my choice by then; I can simply recruit the loyal, uncorrupted Templars. With the mages, I do have time to reconsider, once I've seen that Fiona has taken her people 10 mi further down Crazy Lane. I like the way the game flows much better after CotJ, for all the reasons others and I have mentioned in previous posts. The mages don't seem to contribute much to the story after the Breach is closed. The Templars, though, continue to contribute quite a bit of quality side content. I enjoy Calpernia, as well. Plus, I get to dodge the silly time-travel nonsense. I know that not everyone will agree with me, but I have a dozen reasons for choosing CotJ. It's not even a tough choice.
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Toyish Batphone
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Post by Toyish Batphone on Sept 25, 2016 4:24:11 GMT
I like playing mage protagonist and I prefer Champions of the Just (CoTJ) over In Hushed Whispers (IHW) simply because CoTJ is superior to IHW in every single way.
1) CoTJ is more challenging than IHW. The timed sections are awesome and give the game a much needed sense of urgency, especially since the game was primarily about conflicts and time is an essential factor in any conflict. As for those who find the timed sections a turn-off, l2p + gid gud skrub.
2) CoTJ has a better quest story than IHW. IHW story makes little sense at all. Why didn't the protagonist learn the true identity of the Elder One in the Dark Future, especially if they have Varric or Solas with them ? Why didn't the protagonist learn that the Grey Warden mages are involved in the creation of the demon army when they should have ? It makes sense for the Envy Demon to keep calling Corypheus as the Elder One and not know much about him or be vague but it does not make sense for our followers in the Dark Future or Fiona to do so. Additionally, the theme of the Inquisition becoming too powerful is explored in CoTJ and it is one of the central themes of the Trespasser DLC. Moreover, the introduction of the Dwarven memory crystals makes Dorian's gift in Trespasser more grounded since the protagonist has actually seen something similar before.
3) CoTJ has better loot and better stats than IHW. The protagonist can gain up to +6 attribute points in CoTJ which means a protagonist who chose CoTJ will be stronger than the protagonist who chose IHW.
4) The protagonist makes a better conscription pitch in CoTJ than they do in IHW. In CoTJ, when the protagonist wants to conscript the Templars, it is couched under the guise of disbanding the order and taking up the Inquisition's banner - Essentially working for a new boss because the old boss is crap. Compare this to the mage conscription where the protagonist outright turns the mages into prisoners.
5) The protagonist takes a more sensible approach in CoTJ than they do in IHW. In IHW, the protagonist takes multiple life threatening risks. Firstly, they decided to just enter the Redcliffe Chantry even though that could very well be a Venatori Trap. Secondly, they decide to become bait in order to ensure successful infiltration of Inquisition forces into the Redcliffe Castle, which was also very risky. By contrast, the protagonist approaches Therinfal Redoubt with the support of 10 Orlesian noble houses in addition to their usual cavalcade of followers.
6) The Templars are the safer option for the protagonist to close the Breach. Templars weaken the magic around the Breach, allowing the Herald to use the Mark to close the Breach whereas the Mages power up the Mark to enable the protagonist to close the Breach. Powering the Mark, a magic that the protagonist does not fully understand until the end of Trespasser DLC, is foolish, especially considering the fact that the Mark nearly killed the protagonist, knocking them out for 3 days the first time they tried to seal a very large rift.
7) One can still be pro-Mage and still chose CoTJ over IHW and doing so ensures a better future for mages if Leliana (whose personal quest was completed) is elected as Divine and Templars are conscripted. If IHW path is chosen, at the end of Trespasser, the free mages find themselves in trouble again because of Vivienne and due to the end of the Inquisition whereas if CoTJ path is chose, Vivienne still does stupid things at the end of Trespasser but the impact is far less.
8) CoTJ provides us with a better villain (Calpernia) and more insight into Corypheus himself over IHW. Besides, I find it absurd that Corypheus, a devout devotee of Dumat would let the Temple of Dumat be ruined with Red Lyrium and set on fire, which does happen in the quest Before the Dawn. There's also the fact that Barris is better than Fiona since he actually helps out during the CoTJ quest whereas Fiona is useless. Moreover, Calpernia can be told to stand down and convinced to walk away to fight Corypheus in the Temple of Mythal which can buy the protagonist valuable time to reach the Well of Sorrows before Corypheus. If she survives Corypheus, she can go back to Tevinter and Make Tevinter Great Again with people like Dorian and Maevaris.
9) CoTJ provides a far better introduction to Cole and Dorian compared to IHW. True, Dorian carries much of IHW by himself, but his shtick of being a "Tevinter mage who is not like the typical Tevinter mage" has more weight when he arrives at Haven to warn the Inquisition of the Venatori. Plus, Cole's introduction in CoTJ is far superior to the one in IHW. Our protagonist have not read the novel Asunder, unlike us the players so having Cole help the protagonist gives him a more secure foundation for him to remain with the Inquisition. Then there's Dorian's snarky banter with Cullen about thinking like a Blood Mage.
10) Cullen acts a lot more like a military commander in CoTJ. If the protagonist chose CoTJ, Cullen will tell the soldiers to fortify and look out for advance forces during In Your Heart Shall Burn. If the protagonist chose IHW, Cullen will act like a Templar even though he is adamant that he is not one anymore by telling the mages that they have full sanction to use their powers.
11) The Templars in CoTJ show to the protagonist that they are both capable of alliance and deserving conscription because their officers behaved like crap but later the Templars rally to defeat the Envy Demon. On the other hand, IHW only shows that the Southern rebel mages deserve conscription because the free mages did not help the Inquisition or the protagonist out in any way, they just stood by and let it all happen. It was Dorian and Felix, Tevinter mages, who did so.
12) The rebel mages are embroiled in a conflict with Templars and with Ferelden as well as Tevinter the moment Alexius ousted Arl Teagan out of Redcliffe. It was a politically charged situation and the Inquisition did not possess the necessary influence to deal with all that at the time. Remember, the mission of the Inquisition was to close the Breach, find those responsible and restore order with an emphasis on closing the Breach. Getting involved in politically charged situations when the Inquisition has not done anything remarkable or gained much support is foolish. By contrast, the Templars are not and approaching them nets the Inquisition more political influence.
13) It costs the Inquisition a lot more to take in the rebel mages over the Templars. This is harsh but it is the reality. One side has the elderly, children and many of them are untrained and need lyrium as well as possible supervision. By contrast, the other side contains men and women who are well trained and well versed in ways to combat magical threats as well as general combat. Plus, they are used to mediocre living conditions which means they require less training and upkeep. All they need is a place to stay, weapons, armor and lyrium.
It is for all these reasons that I, someone who plays mage protagonists, choose CoTJ over IHW and I conscript the Templars. A mage Trevelyan will have little issue with approaching Templar due to their family background which ensures some degree of familiarity with Templars. A mage Lavellan would, I think, take Templars over Tevinter mages who conscripted/indentured mages themselves and treat Tranquil like refuse. Like mage Lavellan, mage Adaar would have been brought up to despise Tevinter and be cautious of Templars (or despise both) and would have little issue with picking the lesser evil. The only caveat here is that in order to pursue CoTJ, the protagonist must not enter the Redcliffe Chantry, it makes interaction with Dorian later a lot better and it sensible - One does not simply walk into traps.
In my opinion, IHW stands due to cameos, Cullen, Dorian and players who are so overwhelmingly pro-Mage that they would happily let their protagonist getting into highly risky situations instead of being sensible - Essentially IHW equals cameos and feels. Take those away and IHW falls apart.
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Post by Element Zero on Sept 25, 2016 5:12:14 GMT
Toyish Batphone, that is a pretty definitive post on the "topic at hand". I couldn't agree more on any point, though I do allow my character to walk into the Redcliff Chantry meeting. I feel like it makes Dorian's later arrival at Haven's gates less awkward. I, too, hold Mage as my favorite class to play; and I agree with all of the reasoning points you've laid out above. I don't want to bash IHW, or say that no one should like it or play it. It's an okay quest. It's visually striking; and choice and variety are nearly always good. Still, I believe that many choose it reflexively because they feel they want to "support the mages". In the context of the story, no matter how badly I feel for many of them, I can't bring myself to "support them", risking the nascent Inquisition by bailing them out of the impossible situation into which they've put themselves. (Plus, time-travel. 🙄) Maybe I could've helped them with the support of the Templars at my back. That was a possibility in the back of my mind, at least. Ultimately, that wasn't meant to be. My Inquisitor doesn't have that metagame knowledge, though, so I don't factor it into my decision.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 25, 2016 7:52:34 GMT
Toyish Batphone , that is a pretty definitive post on the "topic at hand". I couldn't agree more on any point, though I do allow my character to walk into the Redcliff Chantry meeting. I feel like it makes Dorian's later arrival at Haven's gates less awkward. I, too, hold Mage as my favorite class to play; and I agree with all of the reasoning points you've laid out above. I don't want to bash IHW, or say that no one should like it or play it. It's an okay quest. It's visually striking; and choice and variety are nearly always good. Still, I believe that many choose it reflexively because they feel they want to "support the mages". In the context of the story, no matter how badly I feel for many of them, I can't bring myself to "support them", risking the nascent Inquisition by bailing them out of the impossible situation into which they've put themselves. (Plus, time-travel. 🙄) Maybe I could've helped them with the support of the Templars at my back. That was a possibility in the back of my mind, at least. Ultimately, that wasn't meant to be. My Inquisitor doesn't have that metagame knowledge, though, so I don't factor it into my decision. Lol, I'm also a Mage Player. Bro, I love to play Mages. It's why my Canon Lavellan is a mage. I can't help but be drawn to playing mages . I'm not anti-mage, I'm anti-Tevinter-Cult-That's-Obsessed-With-Me (aka IHW. That's what IHW is). Although, I'm also anti-Demon too, but the Templars help with that
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