Addictress
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Post by Addictress on Sept 28, 2016 23:58:27 GMT
I like playing mage protagonist and I prefer Champions of the Just (CoTJ) over In Hushed Whispers (IHW) simply because CoTJ is superior to IHW in every single way. 1) CoTJ is more challenging than IHW. The timed sections are awesome and give the game a much needed sense of urgency, especially since the game was primarily about conflicts and time is an essential factor in any conflict. As for those who find the timed sections a turn-off, l2p + gid gud skrub. 2) CoTJ has a better quest story than IHW. IHW story makes little sense at all. Why didn't the protagonist learn the true identity of the Elder One in the Dark Future, especially if they have Varric or Solas with them ? Why didn't the protagonist learn that the Grey Warden mages are involved in the creation of the demon army when they should have ? It makes sense for the Envy Demon to keep calling Corypheus as the Elder One and not know much about him or be vague but it does not make sense for our followers in the Dark Future or Fiona to do so. Additionally, the theme of the Inquisition becoming too powerful is explored in CoTJ and it is one of the central themes of the Trespasser DLC. Moreover, the introduction of the Dwarven memory crystals makes Dorian's gift in Trespasser more grounded since the protagonist has actually seen something similar before. 3) CoTJ has better loot and better stats than IHW. The protagonist can gain up to +6 attribute points in CoTJ which means a protagonist who chose CoTJ will be stronger than the protagonist who chose IHW. 4) The protagonist makes a better conscription pitch in CoTJ than they do in IHW. In CoTJ, when the protagonist wants to conscript the Templars, it is couched under the guise of disbanding the order and taking up the Inquisition's banner - Essentially working for a new boss because the old boss is crap. Compare this to the mage conscription where the protagonist outright turns the mages into prisoners. 5) The protagonist takes a more sensible approach in CoTJ than they do in IHW. In IHW, the protagonist takes multiple life threatening risks. Firstly, they decided to just enter the Redcliffe Chantry even though that could very well be a Venatori Trap. Secondly, they decide to become bait in order to ensure successful infiltration of Inquisition forces into the Redcliffe Castle, which was also very risky. By contrast, the protagonist approaches Therinfal Redoubt with the support of 10 Orlesian noble houses in addition to their usual cavalcade of followers. 6) The Templars are the safer option for the protagonist to close the Breach. Templars weaken the magic around the Breach, allowing the Herald to use the Mark to close the Breach whereas the Mages power up the Mark to enable the protagonist to close the Breach. Powering the Mark, a magic that the protagonist does not fully understand until the end of Trespasser DLC, is foolish, especially considering the fact that the Mark nearly killed the protagonist, knocking them out for 3 days the first time they tried to seal a very large rift. 7) One can still be pro-Mage and still chose CoTJ over IHW and doing so ensures a better future for mages if Leliana (whose personal quest was completed) is elected as Divine and Templars are conscripted. If IHW path is chosen, at the end of Trespasser, the free mages find themselves in trouble again because of Vivienne and due to the end of the Inquisition whereas if CoTJ path is chose, Vivienne still does stupid things at the end of Trespasser but the impact is far less. 8) CoTJ provides us with a better villain (Calpernia) and more insight into Corypheus himself over IHW. Besides, I find it absurd that Corypheus, a devout devotee of Dumat would let the Temple of Dumat be ruined with Red Lyrium and set on fire, which does happen in the quest Before the Dawn. There's also the fact that Barris is better than Fiona since he actually helps out during the CoTJ quest whereas Fiona is useless. Moreover, Calpernia can be told to stand down and convinced to walk away to fight Corypheus in the Temple of Mythal which can buy the protagonist valuable time to reach the Well of Sorrows before Corypheus. If she survives Corypheus, she can go back to Tevinter and Make Tevinter Great Again with people like Dorian and Maevaris. 9) CoTJ provides a far better introduction to Cole and Dorian compared to IHW. True, Dorian carries much of IHW by himself, but his shtick of being a "Tevinter mage who is not like the typical Tevinter mage" has more weight when he arrives at Haven to warn the Inquisition of the Venatori. Plus, Cole's introduction in CoTJ is far superior to the one in IHW. Our protagonist have not read the novel Asunder, unlike us the players so having Cole help the protagonist gives him a more secure foundation for him to remain with the Inquisition. Then there's Dorian's snarky banter with Cullen about thinking like a Blood Mage. 10) Cullen acts a lot more like a military commander in CoTJ. If the protagonist chose CoTJ, Cullen will tell the soldiers to fortify and look out for advance forces during In Your Heart Shall Burn. If the protagonist chose IHW, Cullen will act like a Templar even though he is adamant that he is not one anymore by telling the mages that they have full sanction to use their powers. 11) The Templars in CoTJ show to the protagonist that they are both capable of alliance and deserving conscription because their officers behaved like crap but later the Templars rally to defeat the Envy Demon. On the other hand, IHW only shows that the Southern rebel mages deserve conscription because the free mages did not help the Inquisition or the protagonist out in any way, they just stood by and let it all happen. It was Dorian and Felix, Tevinter mages, who did so. 12) The rebel mages are embroiled in a conflict with Templars and with Ferelden as well as Tevinter the moment Alexius ousted Arl Teagan out of Redcliffe. It was a politically charged situation and the Inquisition did not possess the necessary influence to deal with all that at the time. Remember, the mission of the Inquisition was to close the Breach, find those responsible and restore order with an emphasis on closing the Breach. Getting involved in politically charged situations when the Inquisition has not done anything remarkable or gained much support is foolish. By contrast, the Templars are not and approaching them nets the Inquisition more political influence. 13) It costs the Inquisition a lot more to take in the rebel mages over the Templars. This is harsh but it is the reality. One side has the elderly, children and many of them are untrained and need lyrium as well as possible supervision. By contrast, the other side contains men and women who are well trained and well versed in ways to combat magical threats as well as general combat. Plus, they are used to mediocre living conditions which means they require less training and upkeep. All they need is a place to stay, weapons, armor and lyrium. It is for all these reasons that I, someone who plays mage protagonists, choose CoTJ over IHW and I conscript the Templars. A mage Trevelyan will have little issue with approaching Templar due to their family background which ensures some degree of familiarity with Templars. A mage Lavellan would, I think, take Templars over Tevinter mages who conscripted/indentured mages themselves and treat Tranquil like refuse. Like mage Lavellan, mage Adaar would have been brought up to despise Tevinter and be cautious of Templars (or despise both) and would have little issue with picking the lesser evil. The only caveat here is that in order to pursue CoTJ, the protagonist must not enter the Redcliffe Chantry, it makes interaction with Dorian later a lot better and it sensible - One does not simply walk into traps. In my opinion, IHW stands due to cameos, Cullen, Dorian and players who are so overwhelmingly pro-Mage that they would happily let their protagonist getting into highly risky situations instead of being sensible - Essentially IHW equals cameos and feels. Take those away and IHW falls apart. This is a really good post Bayonet Hipshot
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Post by fylimar on Sept 29, 2016 16:54:30 GMT
I've noticed that everyone cites the "no Dorian until later" as such a bummer. This seems odd to me, since he's only available during IHW, no? Then, everyone goes to Skyhold as usual, and everyone has access to the exact same party members, regardless of which a Milestone Mission was chosen. Am I overlooking something obvious? It's been some time since I've played IHW, since I took a long break from the game. Both of my playthroughs since returning have predictably been CotJ. I think my predilection for mages has often led me to use Dorian a bit less, anyway, despite loving his character. Solas is my #1 NPC mage. My non-mages use a two-mage party with Solas and Dorian pretty often; but I don't recall feeling that IHW gave me any real bonus time with Dorian, other than that single mission itself. Dorian has larger role in the Redcliffe part. Its a good story with Dorian, his mentor and friend Felix. I like Dorian alot. I think because he is well written, funny, and brave- leaving his home and family to try and stop his former mentor and help with the inquisition. I end up taking him with me the most out of all the companions. When choosing Champions of the Just, I miss him. I really forgot to write about Felix - he is such a great character. I wished, that there had been a way to save him and recruit him too. Plus I like Lysas, despite not having a big part in the game - it's like Sol in DA2, I have a soft spot for very minor characters
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Post by Absafraginlootly on Sept 30, 2016 0:16:50 GMT
Whilst I prefer recruiting mages, I find Champions of the Just to be the more compelling quest.
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Post by nonstop on Sept 30, 2016 9:09:19 GMT
I did In Hushed Whispers first and really enjoyed it. I didn't think too much about the time travel aspect, just accepted it and went with it, so it didn't really bother me as it did some people. Dorian is probably my favourite character in Inquisition so I loved the interaction with him through the quest. Especially learning about his relationship with Felix and Alexius. I also enjoyed when you meet up with Leliana and Dorian is like "don't worry, none of this is actually real" and she calls him out on it saying something like "easy for you to say, we had to live through it". I think it sets up his character nicely, shows him as somewhat self-absorbed and then you see how he grows through the game.
I was excited to go back and play Champions of the Just because I'd read on the forums how it was a lot stronger than IHW. Maybe I set my expectations too high after that because it just left me a bit underwhelmed. I found the concept interesting enough and the interactions with Cole were nice but the story and quest just didn't grip me as much as IHW. It might have a bit to do with "second playthrough syndrome" where nothing is quite as new and exciting as the first time, but I just couldn't warm to it as much as IHW.
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Post by fylimar on Sept 30, 2016 17:31:45 GMT
I really forgot to write about Felix - he is such a great character. I wished, that there had been a way to save him and recruit him too. Plus I like Lysas, despite not having a big part in the game - it's like Sol in DA2, I have a soft spot for very minor characters
He is. Wished they filled in his story a bit more. Lysas, felt sorry for him.
Ines in DAO and Stroud in DA2 brief characters but interesting.
Yes, there are so many interesting minor characters. I liked the storyteller at the Dalish Camp in the Brecilian forest a lot. He was so grumpy, but when you get to know, what happened to his wife, you can understand him not being in the best mood. And of course Stroud - thats why I uploaded the only playthrough, where Loghain lives as a GW, I don't want to kill Stroud. So Loghain lives for the sole purpose to get sacrificed in the fade, so that I don't have to decide between Stroud and Hawke (Alistair normally rules with Anora in my pt)
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Post by Cyonan on Sept 30, 2016 18:03:20 GMT
Personally I like In Hushed Whispers more just from playing through it.
Though analyzing it I would say that Champions of the Just makes a lot more sense in the context of the story. In IHW the leader of the mage rebellion mentions she is "protecting hundreds" which isn't a terribly large number of Mages once you consider not all of them will be fit to fight. It seems likely that the main reason they held out as long as they did was because Redcliffe is so defensible a castle, but they were still losing the whole thing slowly.
Meanwhile the Templars are an order that consists entirely of warriors especially trained to fight magic. That's incredibly useful in a situation where you're fighting against something that is highly magical in nature, on top of the fact that they don't need a front line of Inquisition soldiers protecting them. They are the front line and can better aid in military tactics with your normal soldiers. Seeing as how your commander is an ex-Templar, Cullen will know how to best use them and their training.
CotJ also doesn't raise a bunch of plot holes in the story such as "If Alexius' time magic could go back to any point after the breech was created, why do they not just go back and assassinate/capture the Inquisitor before anything is figured out?". Without somebody who has the mark to manipulate the rifts, they're not going to get anywhere.
Time travel has a way of wreaking havoc on story coherency if not planned out in extreme detail.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 30, 2016 19:50:21 GMT
I voted for CotJ not because I prefer the quest but because I vastly prefer what happens with Calpernia and her quests after CotJ to what happens with Samson and his quests after IHW. Calpernia is one of my favorite characters in the game, and though I wish her quests were more fleshed out, particularly the part where you are supposed to meet with the merchant that supplies her with slaves, they are still much better than the Samson quests. Plus, you can avoid fighting her in the Arbor Wilds by providing proof of Cory's lies.
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Post by opuspace on Sept 30, 2016 23:37:39 GMT
Personally I like In Hushed Whispers more just from playing through it. Though analyzing it I would say that Champions of the Just makes a lot more sense in the context of the story. In IHW the leader of the mage rebellion mentions she is "protecting hundreds" which isn't a terribly large number of Mages once you consider not all of them will be fit to fight. It seems likely that the main reason they held out as long as they did was because Redcliffe is so defensible a castle, but they were still losing the whole thing slowly. Meanwhile the Templars are an order that consists entirely of warriors especially trained to fight magic. That's incredibly useful in a situation where you're fighting against something that is highly magical in nature, on top of the fact that they don't need a front line of Inquisition soldiers protecting them. They are the front line and can better aid in military tactics with your normal soldiers. Seeing as how your commander is an ex-Templar, Cullen will know how to best use them and their training. CotJ also doesn't raise a bunch of plot holes in the story such as "If Alexius' time magic could go back to any point after the breech was created, why do they not just go back and assassinate/capture the Inquisitor before anything is figured out?". Without somebody who has the mark to manipulate the rifts, they're not going to get anywhere. Time travel has a way of wreaking havoc on story coherency if not planned out in extreme detail. I recall information that said that Alexius cannot travel past the point the Breach occurred. Time travel was only possible because it's fueled by the Breach's energy. That's why they can't stop the Inquisitor from receiving the Mark and that's why Alexius couldn't go back to stop Felix's sickness in time.
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Post by phoray on Oct 1, 2016 1:02:42 GMT
Personally I like In Hushed Whispers more just from playing through it. Though analyzing it I would say that Champions of the Just makes a lot more sense in the context of the story. In IHW the leader of the mage rebellion mentions she is "protecting hundreds" which isn't a terribly large number of Mages once you consider not all of them will be fit to fight. It seems likely that the main reason they held out as long as they did was because Redcliffe is so defensible a castle, but they were still losing the whole thing slowly. Meanwhile the Templars are an order that consists entirely of warriors especially trained to fight magic. That's incredibly useful in a situation where you're fighting against something that is highly magical in nature, on top of the fact that they don't need a front line of Inquisition soldiers protecting them. They are the front line and can better aid in military tactics with your normal soldiers. Seeing as how your commander is an ex-Templar, Cullen will know how to best use them and their training. CotJ also doesn't raise a bunch of plot holes in the story such as "If Alexius' time magic could go back to any point after the breech was created, why do they not just go back and assassinate/capture the Inquisitor before anything is figured out?". Without somebody who has the mark to manipulate the rifts, they're not going to get anywhere. Time travel has a way of wreaking havoc on story coherency if not planned out in extreme detail. I recall information that said that Alexius cannot travel past the point the Breach occurred. Time travel was only possible because it's fueled by the Breach's energy. That's why they can't stop the Inquisitor from receiving the Mark and that's why Alexius couldn't go back to stop Felix's sickness in time. What I understood Optus as saying, why did Alexius go to the mages when he could have just gone to when the Quiz fell out of the Fade in front of two soldiers unconscious? This reminds me of Harry Potter and how the Author realized her mistake with the time Turner and had them all officially destroyed in the book
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Post by opuspace on Oct 1, 2016 1:53:23 GMT
I recall information that said that Alexius cannot travel past the point the Breach occurred. Time travel was only possible because it's fueled by the Breach's energy. That's why they can't stop the Inquisitor from receiving the Mark and that's why Alexius couldn't go back to stop Felix's sickness in time. What I understood Optus as saying, why did Alexius go to the mages when he could have just gone to when the Quiz fell out of the Fade in front of two soldiers unconscious? This reminds me of Harry Potter and how the Author realized her mistake with the time Turner and had them all officially destroyed in the book Ohhhhh, thanks for clarifying Phoray.
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Post by thesupremedarkone on Oct 1, 2016 2:15:24 GMT
I recall information that said that Alexius cannot travel past the point the Breach occurred. Time travel was only possible because it's fueled by the Breach's energy. That's why they can't stop the Inquisitor from receiving the Mark and that's why Alexius couldn't go back to stop Felix's sickness in time. What I understood Optus as saying, why did Alexius go to the mages when he could have just gone to when the Quiz fell out of the Fade in front of two soldiers unconscious? This reminds me of Harry Potter and how the Author realized her mistake with the time Turner and had them all officially destroyed in the book How do you know there were only two soldiers? There may have been more where we couldn't see them
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Post by HYR on Oct 1, 2016 3:59:09 GMT
Both are great quests. I prefer Champions of the Just by a nose.
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Post by Ieldra on Oct 1, 2016 13:25:50 GMT
I like playing mage protagonist and I prefer Champions of the Just (CoTJ) over In Hushed Whispers (IHW) simply because CoTJ is superior to IHW in every single way. 1) CoTJ is more challenging than IHW. The timed sections are awesome and give the game a much needed sense of urgency, especially since the game was primarily about conflicts and time is an essential factor in any conflict. As for those who find the timed sections a turn-off, l2p + gid gud skrub. 2) CoTJ has a better quest story than IHW. IHW story makes little sense at all. Why didn't the protagonist learn the true identity of the Elder One in the Dark Future, especially if they have Varric or Solas with them ? Why didn't the protagonist learn that the Grey Warden mages are involved in the creation of the demon army when they should have ? It makes sense for the Envy Demon to keep calling Corypheus as the Elder One and not know much about him or be vague but it does not make sense for our followers in the Dark Future or Fiona to do so. Additionally, the theme of the Inquisition becoming too powerful is explored in CoTJ and it is one of the central themes of the Trespasser DLC. Moreover, the introduction of the Dwarven memory crystals makes Dorian's gift in Trespasser more grounded since the protagonist has actually seen something similar before. 3) CoTJ has better loot and better stats than IHW. The protagonist can gain up to +6 attribute points in CoTJ which means a protagonist who chose CoTJ will be stronger than the protagonist who chose IHW. 4) The protagonist makes a better conscription pitch in CoTJ than they do in IHW. In CoTJ, when the protagonist wants to conscript the Templars, it is couched under the guise of disbanding the order and taking up the Inquisition's banner - Essentially working for a new boss because the old boss is crap. Compare this to the mage conscription where the protagonist outright turns the mages into prisoners. 5) The protagonist takes a more sensible approach in CoTJ than they do in IHW. In IHW, the protagonist takes multiple life threatening risks. Firstly, they decided to just enter the Redcliffe Chantry even though that could very well be a Venatori Trap. Secondly, they decide to become bait in order to ensure successful infiltration of Inquisition forces into the Redcliffe Castle, which was also very risky. By contrast, the protagonist approaches Therinfal Redoubt with the support of 10 Orlesian noble houses in addition to their usual cavalcade of followers. 6) The Templars are the safer option for the protagonist to close the Breach. Templars weaken the magic around the Breach, allowing the Herald to use the Mark to close the Breach whereas the Mages power up the Mark to enable the protagonist to close the Breach. Powering the Mark, a magic that the protagonist does not fully understand until the end of Trespasser DLC, is foolish, especially considering the fact that the Mark nearly killed the protagonist, knocking them out for 3 days the first time they tried to seal a very large rift. 7) One can still be pro-Mage and still chose CoTJ over IHW and doing so ensures a better future for mages if Leliana (whose personal quest was completed) is elected as Divine and Templars are conscripted. If IHW path is chosen, at the end of Trespasser, the free mages find themselves in trouble again because of Vivienne and due to the end of the Inquisition whereas if CoTJ path is chose, Vivienne still does stupid things at the end of Trespasser but the impact is far less. 8) CoTJ provides us with a better villain (Calpernia) and more insight into Corypheus himself over IHW. Besides, I find it absurd that Corypheus, a devout devotee of Dumat would let the Temple of Dumat be ruined with Red Lyrium and set on fire, which does happen in the quest Before the Dawn. There's also the fact that Barris is better than Fiona since he actually helps out during the CoTJ quest whereas Fiona is useless. Moreover, Calpernia can be told to stand down and convinced to walk away to fight Corypheus in the Temple of Mythal which can buy the protagonist valuable time to reach the Well of Sorrows before Corypheus. If she survives Corypheus, she can go back to Tevinter and Make Tevinter Great Again with people like Dorian and Maevaris. 9) CoTJ provides a far better introduction to Cole and Dorian compared to IHW. True, Dorian carries much of IHW by himself, but his shtick of being a "Tevinter mage who is not like the typical Tevinter mage" has more weight when he arrives at Haven to warn the Inquisition of the Venatori. Plus, Cole's introduction in CoTJ is far superior to the one in IHW. Our protagonist have not read the novel Asunder, unlike us the players so having Cole help the protagonist gives him a more secure foundation for him to remain with the Inquisition. Then there's Dorian's snarky banter with Cullen about thinking like a Blood Mage. 10) Cullen acts a lot more like a military commander in CoTJ. If the protagonist chose CoTJ, Cullen will tell the soldiers to fortify and look out for advance forces during In Your Heart Shall Burn. If the protagonist chose IHW, Cullen will act like a Templar even though he is adamant that he is not one anymore by telling the mages that they have full sanction to use their powers. 11) The Templars in CoTJ show to the protagonist that they are both capable of alliance and deserving conscription because their officers behaved like crap but later the Templars rally to defeat the Envy Demon. On the other hand, IHW only shows that the Southern rebel mages deserve conscription because the free mages did not help the Inquisition or the protagonist out in any way, they just stood by and let it all happen. It was Dorian and Felix, Tevinter mages, who did so. 12) The rebel mages are embroiled in a conflict with Templars and with Ferelden as well as Tevinter the moment Alexius ousted Arl Teagan out of Redcliffe. It was a politically charged situation and the Inquisition did not possess the necessary influence to deal with all that at the time. Remember, the mission of the Inquisition was to close the Breach, find those responsible and restore order with an emphasis on closing the Breach. Getting involved in politically charged situations when the Inquisition has not done anything remarkable or gained much support is foolish. By contrast, the Templars are not and approaching them nets the Inquisition more political influence. 13) It costs the Inquisition a lot more to take in the rebel mages over the Templars. This is harsh but it is the reality. One side has the elderly, children and many of them are untrained and need lyrium as well as possible supervision. By contrast, the other side contains men and women who are well trained and well versed in ways to combat magical threats as well as general combat. Plus, they are used to mediocre living conditions which means they require less training and upkeep. All they need is a place to stay, weapons, armor and lyrium. It is for all these reasons that I, someone who plays mage protagonists, choose CoTJ over IHW and I conscript the Templars. A mage Trevelyan will have little issue with approaching Templar due to their family background which ensures some degree of familiarity with Templars. A mage Lavellan would, I think, take Templars over Tevinter mages who conscripted/indentured mages themselves and treat Tranquil like refuse. Like mage Lavellan, mage Adaar would have been brought up to despise Tevinter and be cautious of Templars (or despise both) and would have little issue with picking the lesser evil. The only caveat here is that in order to pursue CoTJ, the protagonist must not enter the Redcliffe Chantry, it makes interaction with Dorian later a lot better and it sensible - One does not simply walk into traps. In my opinion, IHW stands due to cameos, Cullen, Dorian and players who are so overwhelmingly pro-Mage that they would happily let their protagonist getting into highly risky situations instead of being sensible - Essentially IHW equals cameos and feels. Take those away and IHW falls apart. Quite a write-up. I'm always torn about the choice. CoTJ gives you the better bigger story in various ways - you mentioned them - but I'm as much anti-Templar as I'm pro-Mage, so I find it hard to actually make the choice. Also, most of the reasons are a matter of hindsight - when you make the choice, your character doesn't know how things will be going. The only reason to choose CotJ at the time when you make the decision is that they're anti-magic specialists, which appears to be what you need.
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