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Post by islamdunk on Jul 31, 2017 17:09:57 GMT
Bulwark needs to provide guaranteed DR at all times, and extra DR based on nearby allies. Extra tankiness at a cost of forced team formation will likely them in trouble if enemy bosses just wade in. While Siphon just works at all times.
Concussive could provide additional Accuracy bonus, so even low-accuracy weapons can take a shot for a weakspot killing blow. (still useless for shotguns though).
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Post by JRandall0308 on Jul 31, 2017 17:19:18 GMT
There are generally two factors to basic optimization in games.
More Damage: How You Win Trumps almost everything else because dead enemies don't fight back.
More Health: How You Don't Lose A secondary concern to more damage unless the More Health is at a ridiculous amount. Immunity (i-frames) is obviously great, so is like really massive amounts of extra health.
There are other optimizations like More Speed (effectively a subset of More Health, you're effectively getting more health by not being shot because you are so fast), More Resource Cycling (in games with random 'cards' like Magic the Gathering or similar, it is generally better to see more of them than fewer), More Control (effectively a subset of More Health, controlled enemies don't shoot you, and are also easier to kill so kind of More Damage too, but note that Control by itself doesn't help you win you the game).
Siphon weapons fit into the 'more health' category and unfortunately the DR from Bulwark isn't enough to make them competitive.
Concussive would theoretically fit into 'more damage' if it actually worked.
The fact that the weapons don't prime with ammo the right way takes away some 'more damage', but the fact that people are using Siphon anyway shows just how powerful 'more health' (i.e., How You Don't Lose) can be when not carefully balanced.
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Post by poultrymancer on Jul 31, 2017 17:21:34 GMT
Bulwark needs to provide guaranteed DR at all times, and extra DR based on nearby allies. Extra tankiness at a cost of forced team formation will likely them in trouble if enemy bosses just wades in. While Siphon just works at all times. Concussive could provide additional Accuracy bonus, so even low-accuracy weapons can take a shot for a weakspot killing blow. (still useless for shotguns though). I'd personally like to see Bulwark changed such that you receive DR based on the percentage of living squadmates in proximity, including the player. I.e. if everyone's dead, or you're soloing, you receive the full DR bonus; if you're fucking off across the map in a game with three squadmates, no DR. That'd give Bulwark a wider niche as a weapon for soloers and add utility when clutching.
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Post by swjobson on Jul 31, 2017 18:08:25 GMT
I'll carry one if I'm also carrying the siphon version on a weapon kit. It gives me double the ammo for that gun, and the option to use the alternate version when/if appropriate.
Would I use them instead of siphon? No, not even once.
The buff for bulwark is simple enough: double or triple the effect radius. It's currently at 10m and that's clearly a delusional range in most situations.
The Concussive augment is a bit more complex. It should set off the explosion at a certain damage value, not a critical kill.
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Post by islamdunk on Jul 31, 2017 20:10:48 GMT
You can't do this with Bulwark.
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Post by gethadept on Jul 31, 2017 20:41:20 GMT
You can't do this with Bulwark. Nice. I should try this. I have Cyclone Siphon. I really wish I had Shadow siphon because this weapon will bring human infiltrators right up to demi-god level. (thanks to hold the line)
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Post by wingerjd on Jul 31, 2017 23:13:55 GMT
I have found Concussive weapons to be very useful when soloing to do weapon challenges on easy difficulty. Got lots of double and triple kills from the explosions-saving me many mouse clicks while using all those semi-automatic assault rifles. Finally got Shadow Concussive and tried it on gold off-host and couldn't get explosions. I'll have to use it while hosting to evaluate its performance on-host.
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Post by The Joe-Man on Jul 31, 2017 23:29:51 GMT
You can't do this with Bulwark. "Balanced".
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Post by JRandall0308 on Aug 1, 2017 0:30:30 GMT
It's tricky. Might have appeared balanced on paper, but doesn't turn out that way in practice.
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Post by Spectr61 on Aug 1, 2017 3:56:40 GMT
Hold on a minute all you siphon-users,
You are somehow losing health in order to make them useful?
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Post by islamdunk on Aug 1, 2017 4:25:29 GMT
Hold on a minute all you siphon-users, You are somehow losing health in order to make them useful? No, it's more of a reliable insurance to always keep your character at full Health, thus allowing a room for error and giving yourself confidence about your positioning. Also, if you combine Siphon effect with LMGs (Large Magazines, +600 RoF) and DR from Powers (Fortify, Tech Armor), it allows the user to keep shooting while peeking from cover (or out of cover) even when Shields are broken, allowing you to deal high Sustained Damage with little-to-no Health loss; making you into an effective boss-killer and tanker. Compared to Siphon, Bulwark has more limits. - You need to move back to cover when Shields are broken, so you are not dealing damage for 3.5 seconds (provided Shield Regen Delay Reduction is at 100%, if not then 7 seconds; you also need to consider Shield Regen Speed).
- Forces the team to stay together, potentially being tasty targets for enemy AoE Damage.
- Less room for error since no Health restoration.
- No effect on last-man-standing and solo-players.
- Has Diminishing Returns.
Meanwhile Siphon only requires the user to damage the enemy to gain effect. No matter what weapon it is, Siphon is always beneficial to the user, and allows damage-trade with less loss. If you are forgoing Siphon and using Bulwark, then perhaps better Shields are important; since you don't want to receive Health damage. Combat Fitness 6 with Defensive Positioning, Fortify 6 with Shield Feedback, Barricade 6 with Regeneration, Barrier 6 with Active Barrier, Energy Drain 6, Shield Boost, Multicapacitor etc will keep your Shields going. For weapons, since you are going to avoid peeking from cover for a long time, weapons with single-shot, high damage trait (DMRs and Sniper Rifles, Heavy Pistols) will likely work. You can shoot and go back to cover fast. But I always prefer Siphon since it allows some mistakes. Your Shields eventually come back, your Health doesn't until you clear a wave.
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Post by N7Mith on Aug 1, 2017 8:06:18 GMT
I won't use Bulshit weapons. At. All. Last thing I want is Bioware looking at the statistics and say; "They're using them, so they must be useful." I'll use the naked version if Bulshit is my only variant.
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Post by islamdunk on Aug 1, 2017 8:36:20 GMT
I won't use Bulshit weapons. At. All. Last thing I want is Bioware looking at the statistics and say; "They're using them, so they must be useful." I'll use the naked version if Bulshit is my only variant. Likewise! Currently, my Turian Soldier has Cyclone Bulwark and Cyclone Siphon. I can't wait to swap Cyclone Bulwark to Revenant Siphon or X5 Ghost Siphon. It is an annoyance when I should swap from Bulwark to Siphon during attacking, once I realize my Shields are broken. And it's not like my Gold PUG teammates are sticking with me constantly either.
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Post by mrfuddyduddy on Aug 1, 2017 23:41:24 GMT
You can't do this with Bulwark. And people think the Cyclone isn't S tier.
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Post by RonnieBlastoff on Aug 2, 2017 0:11:51 GMT
You can't do this with Bulwark. And people think the Cyclone isn't S tier. The fuck? Is this bologna difficulty? You do that on platinum your dead...
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Post by snowleopard25 on Aug 2, 2017 0:19:23 GMT
I now have a Cyclone Siphon level VIII, and when it is doing damage, you can see the health level go up.
(I am not fond of the spoolup for the Cyclone, but it can really do the whang dang doodle on enemy heads...)
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Post by capn233 on Aug 2, 2017 0:30:16 GMT
I have only used a concussive once.
Did a Havoc gold solo on Derelict vs Kett and ran the Cyclone I Concussive. I think I ended up killing three targets in the match total with the AOE explosion, although damaged a couple more. Many more explosions didn't really do anything.
I have a couple Bulwark guns that I have ran just because I might as well over the base version, but never really noticed anything since they were at rank I.
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Post by islamdunk on Aug 2, 2017 1:17:08 GMT
Not everyone plays Platinum, as you know. Even some of the skilled players I know avoid Platinum since there are chances of failure. I would say Gold is the most reliable income for Credits. Also, Platinum narrows down most strategies to few. It diminishes the variety.
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Post by Qui-Gon GlenN7 on Aug 2, 2017 1:27:46 GMT
I'm the opposite of most here: I actively avoid using Siphon weapons. Because even in a game with space magic, a fucking vampire gun is one step further down the road to complete suspension of disbelief than I'm willing to go. so you avoid siphon weapons because you don't believe that it should be possible? in a futuristic space video game? do you play mass effect for the realism? i mean... things that are on fire don't randomly explode if you shock it with electricity either you know. This is true, a fire "explosion" would not result, but you would keep burning while you were being electrified as the charge received would overwhelm you. However, this discounts the armor that ME combatants wear. Overloading the armor system would likely cause some sparks to fly, and if there was already fire there you might get some mini-splosions from the electronics frying in the midst of the Ryncol boogie. Suspension of belief is one thing, but a gun that actually heals you as you kill things is just stupid, regardless of how imaginative and sci-fantastic the universe is.
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Post by The Joe-Man on Aug 2, 2017 1:41:50 GMT
so you avoid siphon weapons because you don't believe that it should be possible? in a futuristic space video game? do you play mass effect for the realism? i mean... things that are on fire don't randomly explode if you shock it with electricity either you know. This is true, a fire "explosion" would not result, but you would keep burning while you were being electrified as the charge received would overwhelm you. However, this discounts the armor that ME combatants wear. Overloading the armor system would likely cause some sparks to fly, and if there was already fire there you might get some mini-splosions from the electronics frying in the midst of the Ryncol boogie. Suspension of belief is one thing, but a gun that actually heals you as you kill things is just stupid, regardless of how imaginative and sci-fantastic the universe is. I love everything you just wrote.
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Post by RonnieBlastoff on Aug 2, 2017 1:54:00 GMT
Not everyone plays Platinum, as you know. Even some of the skilled players I know avoid Platinum since there are chances of failure. I would say Gold is the most reliable income for Credits. Also, Platinum narrows down most strategies to few. It diminishes the variety. lol this is actually incorrect, round 4 platinum can take minimum of about 5 minutes for 75K credits. People just are always so anxious to go for that 125K it always is overlooked.
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Post by RonnieBlastoff on Aug 2, 2017 1:59:24 GMT
so you avoid siphon weapons because you don't believe that it should be possible? in a futuristic space video game? do you play mass effect for the realism? i mean... things that are on fire don't randomly explode if you shock it with electricity either you know. This is true, a fire "explosion" would not result, but you would keep burning while you were being electrified as the charge received would overwhelm you. However, this discounts the armor that ME combatants wear. Overloading the armor system would likely cause some sparks to fly, and if there was already fire there you might get some mini-splosions from the electronics frying in the midst of the Ryncol boogie. Suspension of belief is one thing, but a gun that actually heals you as you kill things is just stupid, regardless of how imaginative and sci-fantastic the universe is. I was calling it vampire guns as well, but in game it list it as healing while shooting. As in the gun is healing and your not sucking life from an enemy. The word siphon is to blame I would say. "The siphon heals the user while shooting enemies and temporarily increases the amount of healing with fatal shots" Guess its supposed to be like a medigel gun.
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Post by islamdunk on Aug 2, 2017 2:16:21 GMT
lol this is actually incorrect, round 4 platinum can take minimum of about 5 minutes for 75K credits. People just are always so anxious to go for that 125K it always is overlooked. Ending Wave 4 with under 5 minutes? Does that mean you are clearing all enemies for each wave within a minute and 15 seconds? I would believe that if there was a video. And also, that video should show a 4-player PUG match with no friends, and everyone with unmaxed Rare weapons or fully maxed Uncommon Variants. You say Gold is not the most reliable way to earn Credits, so that should apply to all players with whatever characters and whatever weapons they use on Platinum, right? Every single player would play Platinum, if they had N7 Hurricane X Siphon and Rozerad X Siphon with Batarian Scrapper XX. Not all players are fully kitted as you are.
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Post by RonnieBlastoff on Aug 2, 2017 2:33:21 GMT
lol this is actually incorrect, round 4 platinum can take minimum of about 5 minutes for 75K credits. People just are always so anxious to go for that 125K it always is overlooked. Ending Wave 4 with under 5 minutes? Does that mean you are clearing all enemies for each wave within a minute and 15 seconds? I would believe that if there was a video. And also, that video should show a 4-player PUG match with no friends, and everyone with unmaxed Rare weapons or fully maxed Uncommon Variants. You say Gold is not the most reliable way to earn Credits, so that should apply to all players with whatever characters and whatever weapons they use on Platinum, right? Every single player would play Platinum, if they had N7 Hurricane X Siphon and Rozerad X Siphon with Batarian Scrapper XX. Not all players are fully kitted as you are. Hey lets not start making assumptions here... I only have a hurricane IX.... :oki: But yes as long as you don't get either upload or hack in unfavorable areas, (and a team of players who understands killing infinitely spawning enemies should never be prioritized over the objective), soon as that objective is done everyone just drop dead and get back to lobby asap. And just so you know, the stuff you mentioned "was" every platinum pug lobby on PC already... and I only say was because even on gold PC is a ghosttown.
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Post by islamdunk on Aug 2, 2017 2:44:31 GMT
Ending Wave 4 with under 5 minutes? Does that mean you are clearing all enemies for each wave within a minute and 15 seconds? I would believe that if there was a video. And also, that video should show a 4-player PUG match with no friends, and everyone with unmaxed Rare weapons or fully maxed Uncommon Variants. You say Gold is not the most reliable way to earn Credits, so that should apply to all players with whatever characters and whatever weapons they use on Platinum, right? Every single player would play Platinum, if they had N7 Hurricane X Siphon and Rozerad X Siphon with Batarian Scrapper XX. Not all players are fully kitted as you are. :oki: Hey lets not start making assumptions here... I only have a hurricane IX.... :oki: But yes as long as you don't get either upload or hack in unfavorable areas, (and a team of players who understands killing infinitely spawning enemies should never be prioritized over the objective), soon as that objective is done everyone just drop dead and get back to lobby asap. And just so you know, the stuff you mentioned "was" every platinum pug lobby on PC already... and I only say was because even on gold PC is a ghosttown. I don't know, I don't think you are making things up, and I would like to believe you, but ending Wave 4 under that period of time seems to require strong gear and great finesse. Which not available to APEX Rating below 10000. And... "I only have a Hurricane IX" will make some players mad, including me.
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