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Post by samhain444 on Sept 13, 2017 15:54:01 GMT
And some people were perfectly happy with the EC and what it accomplished...and some people will never be satisfied no matter what you do and are still butt-hurt about it to this day. Maybe you don't think it's "worthy of special applause" but they still addressed an issue with additional resources and provided it free of charge. They didn't have to do it but they did it but sometimes its not enough no matter what you do because it wasn't "exactly" what "someone" wanted. I wanted a different ending then what I got but, oh well, I have better things to do than send cupcakes... "Butt-hurt"? Well, not me.
Admittedly, I was pissed off at the time, but even then I didn't do anything more than write about it. I didn't send cupcakes because I didn't think they deserved cupcakes, passive-aggressive or not, cupcakes are still potentially tasty...
"Additional resources" and "free of charge" are not something I care about in this context. If you make a successful game and you give out a free DLC as a way of saying "thank you for supporting our game" and just you being pro-consumer, that's something I would applaud.
If you do that as damage control after the whole internet exploded, well, I night criticize you for the fact that your "fix" didn't fix much of the problem.
At this point I don't care much about the whole thing. The ME3 ending is something that happened in the past, I know what I think about it, and I know what I think about BW's handling of it, but that's about it.
All that is completely reasonable and I agree with a good amount of it. I don't think Hudson or Walters set out to write an ending that people loathed. If you see the "Last Hours" app, there was a mock-up of the Citadel scene with the Catalyst and Shepard and it was quite obvious, at least from what they were allowing us to see anyway, that what we got was their intention all along. So, how does it go so wrong? I know that there was a message board post attributed to Patrick Weakes (though later denied by him, so who knows) where he detailed the ending was all Walters and Hudson and was not subjected to the same peer review as the other parts of the game. If indeed it was, that's some serious hubris, so, you better get it right. Personally, I remember the game ending and thinking "so, we are getting another game?" because it felt like a cliff hanger. Obviously, that wasn't the case. Afterwards, it appeared the criticism caught them off guard as it took them several months to supplement their original endings with the EC and it wasn't like ME:A where they already had patches in the pipeline. Now, they could have just packed it in and "what you see is what you get" but they put development money into making a satisfying conclusion for three separate endings, adding a fourth ending, all while trying not to undo the narrative they had established to that point. Some fans thought it was like spraying perfume on cow patty but, personally, I appreciated the effort and was fine with the results as I pick "Destroy" almost every time and, to me, the original plus EC works with "Destroy". Again, it's not a great ending, or even a good ending, and not one I would have personally done but I can live with it and have played the OT numerous times since then. |
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Post by KaiserShep on Sept 13, 2017 17:39:25 GMT
I always wanted to know how anybody thought of shooting at a hologram in the first place, myself. The only reason I know about that is the forums. The only thing I found more amusing than that little easter egg was the response to it on the forum. |
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Post by Iakus on Sept 13, 2017 18:14:00 GMT
Although what you're proposing is a bit different from Broken Steel. Broken Steel clears up a logic problem with the original ending, while Refuse leading to anything other than what it leads to makes Reaper tactics over the course of the war nonsensical, even suicidal, and makes all Citadel leadership look like idiots. This was the standard objection at the time. I don't remember what the standard response was. "ME never made any sense anyway" is a contender, but people who really believe that tended to be not very invested in the ending kerfuffle. News flash: the tactics of the Reapers over the course of the war were already nonsensical and even suicidal. Given their number and power, there is no way we should have gotten past the opening credits. Death by snu-snu with Morinth in ME2 would have been a more merciful outcome. And the Citadel leadership were already idiots. This was established in ME2 if not sooner. So nothing really changes now, does it? My guess is some player got really p*ssed at the "optiopns" and decided to express them. But what are the odds any player of the game got that mad?  |
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mannyray
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Played Anthem finally. So... yeah.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by mannyray on Sept 13, 2017 19:41:43 GMT
So the premise is "I hate ME:A, I'd rather have a lousy premise to pander to me and it will sell the world over like hotcakes. FACT LOLOLOL!" Got it. Well now the premise wouldn’t be lousy as Bioware Montreal won’t be in charge to fuck it up. Also the animations, plot, characters, quests, etc I don't think you understand what a premise is. The premise of a game, film, or story can be good but not necessarily as well done as it could be, like ME:A. Play it for the first and you'll see what I mean. If we got Millky Way fanboy pandering that's trying to build on an inherently bad premise to begin with, so it doesn't matter if it's your evil Bioware Montreal studio or saintly Edmonton. Also you if you can't see how the plot would be a fetid pile of crap on a milky way return, you haven't been reading the brilliant "ideas" in this thread much. It's like I said before if you want your fanpandering crap sequel that tries to pick up the pieces from a surprisingly ballsy ending to a video game trilogy, I'll play my violin as the screaming, memes and death threats begin and Rome burns. |
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Post by alanc9 on Sept 13, 2017 19:56:41 GMT
Although what you're proposing is a bit different from Broken Steel. Broken Steel clears up a logic problem with the original ending, while Refuse leading to anything other than what it leads to makes Reaper tactics over the course of the war nonsensical, even suicidal, and makes all Citadel leadership look like idiots. This was the standard objection at the time. I don't remember what the standard response was. "ME never made any sense anyway" is a contender, but people who really believe that tended to be not very invested in the ending kerfuffle. News flash: the tactics of the Reapers over the course of the war were already nonsensical and even suicidal. Given their number and power, there is no way we should have gotten past the opening credits. Death by snu-snu with Morinth in ME2 would have been a more merciful outcome. And the Citadel leadership were already idiots. This was established in ME2 if not sooner. Hey, I already said that "ME was always nonsense" is a legitimate play there. I don't quite see how you can make that play without blatant hypocrisy, but others could. I could go there, for instance, if adding more nonsense offered a solution to a problem I had, but you pretend to take the lore seriously. I get the anger part. I don't get how doing something stupid and futile makes sense as a way to express that anger. Doesn't it just make Shepard look silly? |
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Post by suikoden on Sept 13, 2017 20:15:19 GMT
Well now the premise wouldn’t be lousy as Bioware Montreal won’t be in charge to fuck it up. Also the animations, plot, characters, quests, etc I don't think you understand what a premise is. The premise of a game, film, or story can be good but not necessarily as well done as it could be, like ME:A. Play it for the first and you'll see what I mean. If we got Millky Way fanboy pandering that's trying to build on an inherently bad premise to begin with, so it doesn't matter if it's your evil Bioware Montreal studio or saintly Edmonton. Also you if you can't see how the plot would be a fetid pile of crap on a milky way return, you haven't been reading the brilliant "ideas" in this thread much. It's like I said before if you want your fanpandering crap sequel that tries to pick up the pieces from a surprisingly ballsy ending to a video game trilogy, I'll play my violin as the screaming, memes and death threats begin and Rome burns. It’s satisfying to know that Bioware Montreal will never develop another video game. |
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Post by alanc9 on Sept 13, 2017 20:50:00 GMT
Although EA Motive will.
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Post by Iakus on Sept 13, 2017 21:08:49 GMT
News flash: the tactics of the Reapers over the course of the war were already nonsensical and even suicidal. Given their number and power, there is no way we should have gotten past the opening credits. Death by snu-snu with Morinth in ME2 would have been a more merciful outcome. And the Citadel leadership were already idiots. This was established in ME2 if not sooner. Hey, I already said that "ME was always nonsense" is a legitimate play there. I don't quite see how you can make that play without blatant hypocrisy, but others could. I could go there, for instance, if adding more nonsense offered a solution to a problem I had, but you pretend to take the lore seriously. Lore went out the window long before ME3 saw the light of day. But if we couldn't take it seriously anymore, it could at least be mindless entertainment. ME3 couldn't even give us that. instead we get "Mass Effect: Emo Edition. I mean, I'm not exactly a huge fan of MEA, but I can at least give it that much credit. I'm not so sure you do get the anger part, given your responses. Shepard already looks silly bending over for the Reaper Supreme Intelligence. It's kinda the reason why people are angry. |
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Post by alanc9 on Sept 13, 2017 21:09:46 GMT
Sure. I have no doubt in your ability to find more obscure ways through which this option makes sense, still, my point is that they are all obscure. And that's ignoring that most people who play ME don't even bother to RP in this manner. You don't really *need* to RP in a game like ME. You only do it if you really like the concept of role playing. Most people who played ME did it with the default start, no custom character, Soldier class. Most of these people don't care about RP. So I'm expected to believe that suddenly Bioware cares about the nuances of RP after they gave barely any consideration to matters of lore consistency and in-universe-realism throughout the trilogy, especially since ME2?... *shrug* Whatever their reasons, this certainly seemed like mockery to me. Obscure? Really? This was the substance of the RP debate at the time. Although I can understand not paying much attention if you really weren't into the RP aspect of the choice. And you're being even more insulting to the typical ME player than I usually am, which is a bit surprising. Are you really sure most ME players don't care about their RP options? There seems to be an awful lot of digital ink expended on Paragon and Renegade topics, for instance. Though, yeah, anyone who engages it these debates at all, on any side, is by definition not a typical player. It seem highly unlikely that data which settlse the "mockery" question will ever be available. Although I find it hard to imagine a design document which suggests spending X dollars on mockery would have ever gotten approved, it's technically possible that a cadre of Bio staffers who were hell-bent on making you folks feel bad could have slipped it in under a different rationale. For a guy who doesn't want to do this stuff, you seem to do it a fair amount. Off-topic posting question : how come your posts have their paragraphs marked with explicit paragraph codes, while everyone else's seem to use carriage returns? I noticed this when I dropped into BBCode view. The tags seem to be confusing the site's quote-marking logic. |
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Post by alanc9 on Sept 13, 2017 21:12:08 GMT
Hey, I already said that "ME was always nonsense" is a legitimate play there. I don't quite see how you can make that play without blatant hypocrisy, but others could. I could go there, for instance, if adding more nonsense offered a solution to a problem I had, but you pretend to take the lore seriously. Lore went out the window long before ME3 saw the light of day. But if we couldn't take it seriously anymore, it could at least be mindless entertainment. ME3 couldn't even give us that. instead we get "Mass Effect: Emo Edition. I mean, I'm not exactly a huge fan of MEA, but I can at least give it that much credit. I'm not so sure you do get the anger part, given your responses. Shepard already looks silly bending over for the Reaper Supreme Intelligence. It's kinda the reason why people are angry. I only get it intellectually. I can't feel it, and I don't really understand why anybody does feel it, but its existence is simply a fact. So making Shepard look even stupider helps you? (I guess that's consistent, since the stupidity of the lore bothers you and yet you want to make it even worse.) And how come it's always people on your side who think of the Catalyst as a Supreme Intelligence? |
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Post by Iakus on Sept 13, 2017 21:15:20 GMT
Lore went out the window long before ME3 saw the light of day. But if we couldn't take it seriously anymore, it could at least be mindless entertainment. ME3 couldn't even give us that. instead we get "Mass Effect: Emo Edition. I mean, I'm not exactly a huge fan of MEA, but I can at least give it that much credit. I'm not so sure you do get the anger part, given your responses. Shepard already looks silly bending over for the Reaper Supreme Intelligence. It's kinda the reason why people are angry. I only get it intellectually. I can't feel it, and I don't really understand why anybody does feel it, but its existence is simply a fact. So making Shepard look even stupider helps you? (I guess that's consistent, since the stupidity of the lore bothers you and yet you want to make it even worse.) And how come it's always people on your side who think of the Catalyst as a Supreme Intelligence? It's about the players getting to express themselves. Why do people shout when they're angry? Why do people throw books against a wall? Kick boxes? Swear? Geez, this is like explaining human emotions to EDI! |
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Post by KaiserShep on Sept 13, 2017 21:55:44 GMT
I only get it intellectually. I can't feel it, and I don't really understand why anybody does feel it, but its existence is simply a fact. So making Shepard look even stupider helps you? (I guess that's consistent, since the stupidity of the lore bothers you and yet you want to make it even worse.) And how come it's always people on your side who think of the Catalyst as a Supreme Intelligence? It's about the players getting to express themselves. Why do people shout when they're angry? Why do people throw books against a wall? Kick boxes? Swear? Geez, this is like explaining human emotions to EDI! When will you humans learn that your so-called feelings will only get in the way? |
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Post by alanc9 on Sept 13, 2017 22:33:12 GMT
I only get it intellectually. I can't feel it, and I don't really understand why anybody does feel it, but its existence is simply a fact. So making Shepard look even stupider helps you? (I guess that's consistent, since the stupidity of the lore bothers you and yet you want to make it even worse.) And how come it's always people on your side who think of the Catalyst as a Supreme Intelligence? It's about the players getting to express themselves. Why do people shout when they're angry? Why do people throw books against a wall? Kick boxes? Swear? Geez, this is like explaining human emotions to EDI! Maybe I'm just too much of a role-player to get it. Making my Shepard do something stupid and silly would make me feel stupid and silly too. While I don't particularly respect the Catalyst, I still wouldn't want to act like a whiny toddler in front of it. |
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Post by Iakus on Sept 14, 2017 0:01:24 GMT
It's about the players getting to express themselves. Why do people shout when they're angry? Why do people throw books against a wall? Kick boxes? Swear? Geez, this is like explaining human emotions to EDI! Maybe I'm just too much of a role-player to get it. Making my Shepard do something stupid and silly would make me feel stupid and silly too. While I don't particularly respect the Catalyst, I still wouldn't want to act like a whiny toddler in front of it. This isn't role-playing anymore. This is a p*ssed off player trying to vent frustration and anger. This is about player who were taken right out of the story. |
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Post by themikefest on Sept 14, 2017 0:37:24 GMT
This isn't role-playing anymore. This is a p*ssed off player trying to vent frustration and anger. This is about player who were taken right out of the story. Why not create a thread in the trilogy section for folks who want to vent their frustration and anger? |
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Post by alanc9 on Sept 14, 2017 1:00:04 GMT
This isn't role-playing anymore. This is a p*ssed off player trying to vent frustration and anger. This is about player who were taken right out of the story. Why not create a thread in the trilogy section for folks who want to vent their frustration and anger? Or mock those who are venting their frustration and anger, in my case. It's a fair point. Let's give it a rest. |
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Post by dutchsghost7 on Sept 29, 2017 4:42:12 GMT
Bump
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Post by Deleted on Sept 29, 2017 14:41:22 GMT
The ending is only broken if taken from a literal perspective (eg. what you see and hear is what you get).
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“We are the beginning, you are the end.”
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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PSN: Cynthe
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Post by Eshaye on Sept 29, 2017 14:51:22 GMT
Given that they've said the future of Andromeda is books and comics, it sounds very much like no MEA2 is happening. ^ This. We are not getting a sequel. If there's another Mass effect you can bet it will be back in the Milky Way or something totally different. IF and that's a big IF. I hope you all like Anthem.... |
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Post by wright1978 on Sept 29, 2017 15:09:26 GMT
I don't think Hudson or Walters set out to write an ending that people loathed. If you see the "Last Hours" app, there was a mock-up of the Citadel scene with the Catalyst and Shepard and it was quite obvious, at least from what they were allowing us to see anyway, that what we got was their intention all along. So, how does it go so wrong? I know that there was a message board post attributed to Patrick Weakes (though later denied by him, so who knows) where he detailed the ending was all Walters and Hudson and was not subjected to the same peer review as the other parts of the game. If indeed it was, that's some serious hubris, so, you better get it right. Personally, I remember the game ending and thinking "so, we are getting another game?" because it felt like a cliff hanger. Obviously, that wasn't the case. Afterwards, it appeared the criticism caught them off guard as it took them several months to supplement their original endings with the EC and it wasn't like ME:A where they already had patches in the pipeline. Now, they could have just packed it in and "what you see is what you get" but they put development money into making a satisfying conclusion for three separate endings, adding a fourth ending, all while trying not to undo the narrative they had established to that point. Some fans thought it was like spraying perfume on cow patty but, personally, I appreciated the effort and was fine with the results as I pick "Destroy" almost every time and, to me, the original plus EC works with "Destroy". Again, it's not a great ending, or even a good ending, and not one I would have personally done but I can live with it and have played the OT numerous times since then. I'm still of the view that it is a complete trainwreck of an ending with no redeeming features pre or post the EC. The only way i can play the trilogy now is to do the metaphorical equivalent of bloodily hacking off my arm with a blunt hatchet via modding the ending(EC at least gave some material for that) into something that doesn't make me want burst into hysterical angry laughter. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 29, 2017 15:28:42 GMT
I think going back to the Milky Way would simply stagnate the franchise, but that's just me.
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Post by samhain444 on Sept 29, 2017 15:35:29 GMT
I don't think Hudson or Walters set out to write an ending that people loathed. If you see the "Last Hours" app, there was a mock-up of the Citadel scene with the Catalyst and Shepard and it was quite obvious, at least from what they were allowing us to see anyway, that what we got was their intention all along. So, how does it go so wrong? I know that there was a message board post attributed to Patrick Weakes (though later denied by him, so who knows) where he detailed the ending was all Walters and Hudson and was not subjected to the same peer review as the other parts of the game. If indeed it was, that's some serious hubris, so, you better get it right. Personally, I remember the game ending and thinking "so, we are getting another game?" because it felt like a cliff hanger. Obviously, that wasn't the case. Afterwards, it appeared the criticism caught them off guard as it took them several months to supplement their original endings with the EC and it wasn't like ME:A where they already had patches in the pipeline. Now, they could have just packed it in and "what you see is what you get" but they put development money into making a satisfying conclusion for three separate endings, adding a fourth ending, all while trying not to undo the narrative they had established to that point. Some fans thought it was like spraying perfume on cow patty but, personally, I appreciated the effort and was fine with the results as I pick "Destroy" almost every time and, to me, the original plus EC works with "Destroy". Again, it's not a great ending, or even a good ending, and not one I would have personally done but I can live with it and have played the OT numerous times since then. I'm still of the view that it is a complete trainwreck of an ending with no redeeming features pre or post the EC. The only way i can play the trilogy now is to do the metaphorical equivalent of bloodily hacking off my arm with a blunt hatchet via modding the ending(EC at least gave some material for that) into something that doesn't make me want burst into hysterical angry laughter. ok... Like I posted, I can live with it and have played the entire trilogy multiple since 2012. Although, in general, I don't have extreme reactions to entertainment, certainly not enough to laugh hysterically, weep, send cupcakes, "hold the line", file a BBB claim, threaten devs... |
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Post by alanc9 on Sept 29, 2017 15:51:13 GMT
FWIW, the Russian script outline leak supports the "Weekes leak," at least to some extent. There was always going to be some kind of conversation between Shepard and some sort of Reaper intelligence on the Citadel -- called the GUARDIAN in the leak, not the Catalyst -- and then the same three final choices we actually got in the initial release. But in the outline, the content of the conversation isn't there; it's just blank. The team hadn't decided exactly what the Reapers were about yet.
I've never been too upset with what they came up with. The Reapers were so dopey from the get-go that I don't consider this a soluble problem.
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Post by wright1978 on Sept 29, 2017 16:06:25 GMT
Like I posted, I can live with it and have played the entire trilogy multiple since 2012. Although, in general, I don't have extreme reactions to entertainment, certainly not enough to laugh hysterically, weep, send cupcakes, "hold the line", file a BBB claim, threaten devs... I'd find it odd either not to care about anything to have an extreme reaction or to care about something but not be willing to express extreme emotions to it, whether that's protest/criticism or praise. As with anything there is always a line to acceptable behaviour. Threatening devs is well over that line. Posting them cupcakes isn't. |
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1,669
April 2017
samhain444
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by samhain444 on Sept 29, 2017 16:22:44 GMT
Like I posted, I can live with it and have played the entire trilogy multiple since 2012. Although, in general, I don't have extreme reactions to entertainment, certainly not enough to laugh hysterically, weep, send cupcakes, "hold the line", file a BBB claim, threaten devs... I'd find it odd either not to care about anything to have an extreme reaction or to care about something but not be willing to express extreme emotions to it, whether that's protest/criticism or praise. As with anything there is always a line to acceptable behaviour. Threatening devs is well over that line. Posting them cupcakes isn't. I didn't say I didn't care about "anything", I just don't have extreme reactions to entertainment and I have yet to play video games that "make me want burst into hysterical angry laughter". Agree to disagree on the cupcakes...but, when I don't enjoy something I move on so the mentality is lost on me. |
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