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Post by Andrew Waples on Aug 20, 2017 22:38:49 GMT
What does Jessica Jones have to do with the way Bioware handles mature/dark themes and tones in their games? I didn't understand it either, maybe he wants you to watch it since it is very good? I'm saying it's dark in tone and Weekes liked Jones, so implying that you think BioWare is shifting their tone to be more light-hearted? I don't see it.
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Post by duskwanderer on Aug 21, 2017 1:26:26 GMT
What is dark?
Seriously, that's a question you should ask. What is dark? And why is it good? The 90s was full of grimdark-type stories that weren't all that great. In fact, Max Payne could almost be seen as a parody of it.
I don't want a dark story for the sake of it being dark. I want the story to be epic in scale. If it is set in Tevinter, let me decide the fate of the nation. However, I don't want my choices to be between eating babies and slaughtering captives any more than I want it to be eating babies and Mother Teresa.
I do, in the end, need characters to root for and deep, nuanced plots. Inquisition fell into this trap not because of a lack of darkness, but because things took a more superficial turn. Characters like Dorian, for instance, were so ridiculous I was expecting a laugh track, even more than Sera (who was supposedly the jokey type). Cassandra had a real depth of emotion and character, and every character should be as deep.
Frankly, the way they SHOULD do it is to tell me the story without going into preachy bullcrap.
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Post by luketrevelyan on Aug 21, 2017 1:30:50 GMT
I agree DAO was darker in tone. DAI seems the lightest to me with DA2 closer to DAO but with more humor. I've enjoyed every game though so I suppose I don't mind too much, but I think I'd prefer tilting back towards DAO tone.
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Post by themikefest on Aug 21, 2017 2:42:09 GMT
I can see a combination of both light and dark in the next game.
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Post by Fredward on Aug 21, 2017 6:08:04 GMT
He didn't like Daredevil for the torture bits and since he is the lead writer of DA, it should give you some idea. Well.....shit! Why is Bioware like this? Because they're human beings with preferences? If you were in charge would you walk into the writing pit, grab one of them by the skull and yell "WRITE THIS RAPE RIGHT NOW I COMMAND IT"? lol Personally my answer to the dilemma of "Write what you're willing to defend in front of a crowd" would be to try and find a way to handle contentious, difficult issues carefully and with nuance. Not simply to not write it. Different strokes I suppose.
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Post by Kabraxal on Aug 21, 2017 6:30:13 GMT
See the same roots throughout... but then DA never reveled in the gore and death to ellicit cheap emotional responses like most shit fantasy. It actually required an intelligent audience willing to engage on deeper levels to create a blend of high and dark fantasy unmatched by any game abd most other mediums. Kushiel's Kegacy is about the only franchise I'd put as DA's equal.
Dark fantasy authors should take lessons. Also, I'm with Weekes: JJ and LC are good but Daredevil and Ironfist relied too heavily on dark cliches. Daredevil was especially awful. It took great joy in its misery.
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Aug 21, 2017 6:42:02 GMT
Did you not watch Jessica Jones? What does Jessica Jones have to do with the way Bioware handles mature/dark themes and tones in their games? I think I remember someone on the last forum writing that Jessica Jones's version of The Purple Man was a pretty good template for a mind controlling villain, in that he did terrible things that a complete monster with complete control over someone might realistically do and it was all played completely seriously. I don't remember much more than that, and I can't judge for myself since I've never watched the show.
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Post by Andraste_Reborn on Aug 21, 2017 7:52:41 GMT
I don't know why Weekes didn't like the torture Daredevil, but most of the people I personally know who objected did so because they didn't like having a torturer for a hero, not because it contains torture per se. It didn't put me off personally, but I can see why someone would feel that way.
If he objected just because it was dark, presumably he wouldn't have liked Jessica Jones. (Or Luke Cage either, for that matter, which also has some pretty grim stuff in it.)
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Post by Sifr on Aug 21, 2017 8:04:19 GMT
I think I remember someone on the last forum writing that Jessica Jones's version of The Purple Man was a pretty good template for a mind controlling villain, in that he did terrible things that a complete monster with complete control over someone might realistically do and it was all played completely seriously. I don't remember much more than that, and I can't judge for myself since I've never watched the show. The Netflix incarnation of the Purple Man is very well handled, because they took some time to explore how his powers shaped his personality and psychology. Imagine a child that's grown up never being told no or facing any real consequences from their actions? That's Kilgrave in a nutshell, a spoiled man-child with the ability to make anyone do what he wants, who doesn't really understand what's good or bad (or if he does, doesn't really care), because society's rules and laws have never applied to him. Whereas in the original Alias comic series, even under the MAX imprint they were presumably worried about controversy so the Purple Man's violation of Jessica was limited only to mind-rape, the show incarnation of Kilgrave is explicitly confirmed to have raped Jessica during the time she was under his control. They play that aspect completely straight and seriously, making it clear that however charming and funny he may seem (mostly through David Tennant's excellent portrayal), Kilgrave is still a serial rapist and a complete monster. (Would definitely recommend the show for those who haven't watched it)
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Post by eriador117 on Aug 21, 2017 9:28:49 GMT
I think DAI is a combination of light and dark themes. I think the colour palette in DAI is lighter than it had been in DAO, but that might have been the devs playing around with the new engine to see what it could do Let's see: growing red lyrium using people as hosts, selling the villagers of Emprise to Lion into slavery with the red Templars, Crestwood being attacked by undead villagers and then the reveal that it was the mayor who killed them. Blood sacrifice in the the Wardens. Nightmare demon who feeds on everyone's fear. Those were all light, were they? Not to me.
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Post by tacsear on Aug 21, 2017 9:37:44 GMT
See the same roots throughout... but then DA never reveled in the gore and death to ellicit cheap emotional responses like most shit fantasy. It actually required an intelligent audience willing to engage on deeper levels to create a blend of high and dark fantasy unmatched by any game abd most other mediums. Kushiel's Kegacy is about the only franchise I'd put as DA's equal. Dark fantasy authors should take lessons. Also, I'm with Weekes: JJ and LC are good but Daredevil and Ironfist relied too heavily on dark cliches. Daredevil was especially awful. It took great joy in its misery. Daredevil is the greatest comic book TV adaptation ever
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Post by Wildfire on Aug 21, 2017 10:06:51 GMT
Personal opinion: Dragon Age Origins wasn't "dark". Dragon Age 2 was a LOT "darker". DAI on the other hand... well, DAI had all sorts of problems, and its lightness/darkness was not among the biggest ones I don't see any reason why Bioware should make their games "darker", especially because this supposed "darkness" is often just an euphemism for more explicit depictions of sex, violence, bigotry and sexism. I think "darkness" in videogames is like people going to the toilet - we all know it's happening, but it's unnecessary to show it because it doesn't add any value. Also, Bioware has its own niche. If I want to play "dark" games, I can play the Witcher. I like Bioware because they are inoffensive and because they know how to mix tragic events and serious themes with lighthearted humor. DA2 is a case in point. It doesn't make sense to start making "darker" games because CDPR and GoT already exists.However, if they go to Tevinter in DA4, I expect to see some gruesome blood magic rituals because that's plot relevant and canonic. But even that can be done in a tasteful manner.
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Post by naughtynomad on Aug 21, 2017 10:10:24 GMT
It doesn't make sense to start making "darker" games because CDPR and GoT already exists. Except GoT is the most watched show on television and the Witcher 3 is being touted as the best RPG ever made.... Clearly there is something to their success.
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Post by Wildfire on Aug 21, 2017 10:32:06 GMT
It doesn't make sense to start making "darker" games because CDPR and GoT already exists. Except GoT is the most watched show on television and the Witcher 3 is being touted as the best RPG ever made.... Clearly there is something to their success. Yes, but their respective successes may or may not to be related to their "darkness". I've never watched GoT, only like two episodes when the local national broadcaster ran it a few years back. So I can't say anything about it.
The Witcher 3 was obviously great, and if I try to be objective, I do consider it to be the best modern open-world RPG ever made. But it's not like TW3's biggest merit was the "darkness". I daresay that if DAI had had a similar storytelling structure and a combat system like TW3, it would have been very well received as well. TW3 had an epic and engrossing main plot, which was centered around an enigmatic yet well-developed character (the only good character in the whole franchise), and it was the innovativeness of the main storyline which set it apart from its competitors. Just compare the main plot of DAI and TW3... Which was better?
Also, there is no guarantee that the transition to "darker" storytelling would be a) successful or well-received. It's usually not a good idea to do something just to mimic the success of others And I think BW still has some artistic self-esteem left, despite all the blows it has suffered. So I don't think that they will stoop so low as to copy CDPR.
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Post by naughtynomad on Aug 21, 2017 10:42:27 GMT
Except GoT is the most watched show on television and the Witcher 3 is being touted as the best RPG ever made.... Clearly there is something to their success. Yes, but their respective successes may or may not to be related to their "darkness". I've never watched GoT, only like two episodes when the local national broadcaster ran it a few years back. So I can't say anything about it.
The Witcher 3 was obviously great, and if I try to be objective, I do consider it to be the best modern open-world RPG ever made. But it's not like TW3's biggest merit was the "darkness". I daresay that if DAI would have had a similar storytelling structure and a combat system like TW3, it would have been very well received as well. TW3 had an epic and engrossing main plot, which was centered around an enigmatic yet well-developed character (the only good character in the whole franchise), and it was the innovativeness of the main storyline which set it apart from its competitors. Just compare the main plot of DAI and TW3... Which was better?
Also, there is no guarantee that the transition to "darker" storytelling would be a) successful or well-received. It's usually not a good idea to do something just to mimic the success of others And I think BW still has some artistic self-esteem left, despite all the blows it has suffered. So I don't think that they will stoop so low as to copy CDPR.
True enough, but DA started as a dark fantasy in my opinion. I actually read the first few GoT novels a few years after playing through DAO, and I felt DA was heavily inspired by GoT. The Grey Wardens are basically the same as the Nights Watch. The political schemes and intrigue of Orzimmar and Ferelden seemed inspired by George RR Martin. And the human noble origin in many ways is similar to the story of the Stark family and Jon Snow rise to become the Lord Commander of the Nights Watch.
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Post by majesticjazz on Aug 21, 2017 11:04:05 GMT
Personal opinion: Dragon Age Origins wasn't "dark". Dragon Age 2 was a LOT "darker". DAI on the other hand... well, DAI had all sorts of problems, and its lightness/darkness was not among the biggest ones I don't see any reason why Bioware should make their games "darker", especially because this supposed "darkness" is often just an euphemism for more explicit depictions of sex, violence, bigotry and sexism. I think "darkness" in videogames is like people going to the toilet - we all know it's happening, but it's unnecessary to show it because it doesn't add any value. Also, Bioware has its own niche. If I want to play "dark" games, I can play the Witcher. I like Bioware because they are inoffensive and because they know how to mix tragic events and serious themes with lighthearted humor. DA2 is a case in point. It doesn't make sense to start making "darker" games because CDPR and GoT already exists.However, if they go to Tevinter in DA4, I expect to see some gruesome blood magic rituals because that's plot relevant and canonic. But even that can be done in a tasteful manner. Funny how you say Bioware has their own niche of being inoffensive when DA the franchise started out as a dark game that explored sex, violence, and bigotry. Only until DAI and the recent MEA did Bioware shift to this lighter, "inoffensive" stance. So I am not sure what you are trying to argue. DA4 being dark wouldnt be anything nee cause they did it with DAO and with DA2 to an extent. DAI was their only "light" DAI game.
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Post by tacsear on Aug 21, 2017 11:41:52 GMT
Personal opinion: Dragon Age Origins wasn't "dark". Dragon Age 2 was a LOT "darker". DAI on the other hand... well, DAI had all sorts of problems, and its lightness/darkness was not among the biggest ones I don't see any reason why Bioware should make their games "darker", especially because this supposed "darkness" is often just an euphemism for more explicit depictions of sex, violence, bigotry and sexism. I think "darkness" in videogames is like people going to the toilet - we all know it's happening, but it's unnecessary to show it because it doesn't add any value. Also, Bioware has its own niche. If I want to play "dark" games, I can play the Witcher. I like Bioware because they are inoffensive and because they know how to mix tragic events and serious themes with lighthearted humor. DA2 is a case in point. It doesn't make sense to start making "darker" games because CDPR and GoT already exists.However, if they go to Tevinter in DA4, I expect to see some gruesome blood magic rituals because that's plot relevant and canonic. But even that can be done in a tasteful manner. Funny how you say Bioware has their own niche of being inoffensive when DA the franchise started out as a dark game that explored sex, violence, and bigotry. Only until DAI and the recent MEA did Bioware shift to this lighter, "inoffensive" stance. So I am not sure what you are trying to argue. DA4 being dark wouldnt be anything nee cause they did it with DAO and with DA2 to an extent. DAI was their only "light" DAI game. It's funny the more they try to make their games less-offensive, more and more people get offended. You can't please everyone, it's better if you try to please absolutely nobody.
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Post by Wildfire on Aug 21, 2017 13:30:08 GMT
Funny how you say Bioware has their own niche of being inoffensive when DA the franchise started out as a dark game that explored sex, violence, and bigotry. Only until DAI and the recent MEA did Bioware shift to this lighter, "inoffensive" stance. So I am not sure what you are trying to argue. DA4 being dark wouldnt be anything nee cause they did it with DAO and with DA2 to an extent. DAI was their only "light" DAI game. I am trying to argue that BW shouldn't make any ill-considered moves just because some other "darker" franchises have enjoyed good receptions.
It seems we understand the term "dark" in a very different way. It's obviously hard to define such an inexact term. For me, the Witcher franchise is "dark". Bioware games are not. Or maybe DA2 was in patches. Also, I fail to see how DAI was so much "lighter" than its predecessors
In other words: I believe that BW honestly doesn't want to make witcheresque "dark fantasy" games. Therefore, they shouldn't do it. Simple as that.
Personally I think that if "dark" themes serve the purpose of the story at large, then sure, go ahead, but there's no point to decide to make a game "dark" without considering the details of the story, setting etc. Simply making a game darker does not make it better
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Post by Max Deltree on Aug 21, 2017 14:27:02 GMT
Dragon Age 2 was the darker game of all. In fact, there was a lot of backlash back in the day because of how grim it was. Everything around Hawke was doomed and Kirkwall was the worst place ever to live. (I love DA2)
I believe it was because of DA2's backlash that Inquisition was lighter. Also, Inquisition was more colorful, which contributed to it's tone.
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Post by Andrew Waples on Aug 21, 2017 14:59:48 GMT
It doesn't make sense to start making "darker" games because CDPR and GoT already exists. Except GoT is the most watched show on television and the Witcher 3 is being touted as the best RPG ever made.... Clearly there is something to their success. Being dark works in those worlds, I don't want a game, show, or whatever to be dark just to be dark, because that gets sales or eyeballs to watch.
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Post by majesticjazz on Aug 21, 2017 15:23:27 GMT
Funny how you say Bioware has their own niche of being inoffensive when DA the franchise started out as a dark game that explored sex, violence, and bigotry. Only until DAI and the recent MEA did Bioware shift to this lighter, "inoffensive" stance. So I am not sure what you are trying to argue. DA4 being dark wouldnt be anything nee cause they did it with DAO and with DA2 to an extent. DAI was their only "light" DAI game. I am trying to argue that BW shouldn't make any ill-considered moves just because some other "darker" franchises have enjoyed good receptions.
It seems we understand the term "dark" in a very different way. It's obviously hard to define such an inexact term. For me, the Witcher franchise is "dark". Bioware games are not. Or maybe DA2 was in patches. Also, I fail to see how DAI was so much "lighter" than its predecessors
In other words: I believe that BW honestly doesn't want to make witcheresque "dark fantasy" games. Therefore, they shouldn't do it. Simple as that.
Personally I think that if "dark" themes serve the purpose of the story at large, then sure, go ahead, but there's no point to decide to make a game "dark" without considering the details of the story, setting etc. Simply making a game darker does not make it better
My point is that Bioware should make a DA game that had similar tone/darkness as DAO, not TW3. You are acting like Bioware has never made a dark game when in fact, DAO was very dark and in a lot of ways, DA2 was as well if not darker in many areas. It was with DAI when they changed course and went the lighter route. So what I am suggesting isnt something Bioware never did before but something they used to do.
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Post by majesticjazz on Aug 21, 2017 15:25:28 GMT
Except GoT is the most watched show on television and the Witcher 3 is being touted as the best RPG ever made.... Clearly there is something to their success. Being dark works in those worlds, I don't want a game, show, or whatever to be dark just to be dark, because that gets sales or eyeballs to watch. I guess you never played DAO and DA2 cause compared to DAI, those games were pretty dark in terms of tone and visuals.
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Post by Andrew Waples on Aug 21, 2017 15:26:33 GMT
Being dark works in those worlds, I don't want a game, show, or whatever to be dark just to be dark, because that gets sales or eyeballs to watch. I guess you never played DAO and DA2 cause compared to DAI, those games were pretty dark in terms of tone and visuals. I did actually play DAO and DA2.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 21, 2017 15:35:45 GMT
I know I have seen Patrick and Mike imply grimdark storytelling as being overrated and, as others have pointed out, Patrick has also said on more than one occasion that he believes heroes shouldn't torture. This doesn't mean there will be no torture in DA4, just no torture committed by anyone Patrick considers a hero.
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Post by majesticjazz on Aug 21, 2017 15:38:32 GMT
I guess you never played DAO and DA2 cause compared to DAI, those games were pretty dark in terms of tone and visuals. I did actually play DAO and DA2. And did they suffer from being dark?
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