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Post by Deleted on Aug 21, 2017 15:58:38 GMT
I'll be honest, I'm not real clear on what specifically the OP thinks of as "dark". You mention bigotry, sex, and violence, but all three of those things were in Inquisition. For instance, when you say sex, are you referring to the love scenes or what?
I would also like to know if the OP played as anything other than human in Inquisition, because you get plenty of racism in Inquisition if you play as a dalish or qunari.
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Post by majesticjazz on Aug 21, 2017 16:14:56 GMT
I'll be honest, I'm not real clear on what specifically the OP thinks of as "dark". You mention bigotry, sex, and violence, but all three of those things were in Inquisition. For instance, when you say sex, are you referring to the love scenes or what? I would also like to know if the OP played as anything other than human in Inquisition, because you get plenty of racism in Inquisition if you play as a delish or qunari. I mean dark as in DAO and DA2 levels of dark. While DAI has its dark spots, in comparison to the first 2 games, DAI is very sterile and safe.
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Post by eriador117 on Aug 21, 2017 16:35:22 GMT
I'll be honest, I'm not real clear on what specifically the OP thinks of as "dark". You mention bigotry, sex, and violence, but all three of those things were in Inquisition. For instance, when you say sex, are you referring to the love scenes or what? I would also like to know if the OP played as anything other than human in Inquisition, because you get plenty of racism in Inquisition if you play as a delish or qunari. I mean dark as in DAO and DA2 levels of dark. While DAI has its dark spots, in comparison to the first 2 games, DAI is very sterile and safe. A lot of the dark stuff in DAI was in codexes and exploration, rather than a game mechanic as such. There are a lot of dark themes in some of those codexes: rape, mutilation and plenty more. It's there, but it is not shoved straight in your face, I suppose.
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Post by naughtynomad on Aug 21, 2017 16:54:43 GMT
Dragon Age 2 was the darker game of all. In fact, there was a lot of backlash back in the day because of how grim it was. Everything around Hawke was doomed and Kirkwall was the worst place ever to live. (I love DA2) I believe it was because of DA2's backlash that Inquisition was lighter. Also, Inquisition was more colorful, which contributed to it's tone. True, DA2 was sufficiently dark for my tastes, but it mainly suffered from a smaller, less grand scope, and awful design shortcuts that detracted from what could have been a masterpiece of role playing. BioWare does have the tendency to over correct on things it perceives as mistakes, so Inquisition might have just focused on the wrong things.
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Post by majesticjazz on Aug 21, 2017 17:09:41 GMT
I mean dark as in DAO and DA2 levels of dark. While DAI has its dark spots, in comparison to the first 2 games, DAI is very sterile and safe. A lot of the dark stuff in DAI was in codexes and exploration, rather than a game mechanic as such. There are a lot of dark themes in some of those codexes: rape, mutilation and plenty more. It's there, but it is not shoved straight in your face, I suppose. Thats the problem with DAI, it was "tell but not show" which is a very annoying way to handle a narrative. We were told that the world was a terrible place but rarely saw any of it. Also Bioware needs to move away from the cartoon character villians like Cory and Archon and create complex villains like Loghain.
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Post by Andrew Waples on Aug 21, 2017 17:11:59 GMT
I did actually play DAO and DA2. And did they suffer from being dark? Well I don't look at DAO as being "dark" because it's larger purpose is setting up the rules of its universe, like this is how it is. DA2 is dark game because it expands upon what was setup in DAO, they decided to go that path of being "dark". DAI is the same level of darkness that DA2 setup. The possible assassination of the Empress, Breach, Divine's death, Cory, and most importantly the setup of Solas. So, I don't see how DAI is more lighter in tone then DA2 where a lot of DAI's plot stems from DA2.
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Post by Catilina on Aug 21, 2017 17:42:38 GMT
And did they suffer from being dark? Well I don't look at DAO as being "dark" because it's larger purpose is setting up the rules of its universe, like this is how it is. DA2 is dark game because it expands upon what was setup in DAO, they decided to go that path of being "dark". DAI is the same level of darkness that DA2 setup. The possible assassination of the Empress, Breach, Divine's death, Cory, and most importantly the setup of Solas. So, I don't see how DAI is more lighter in tone then DA2 where a lot of DAI's plot stems from DA2. The Inquisition was a world savior game, and the Inquisitor succeed. The game's arc was positive. The DA2's arc was darker: Losing the home, a part of the family, escaping (bad), ascension (good), everythin getting worse, exile (bad)
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Post by shechinah on Aug 21, 2017 17:53:36 GMT
Also Bioware needs to move away from the cartoon character villians like Cory and Archon and create complex villains like Loghain. Complex villains have always been present in Dragon Age. This includes Inquisition where we had one called Solas. I'd argue the lack of complex villains applies more to Mass Effect after the death of Saren.
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Post by majesticjazz on Aug 21, 2017 17:56:37 GMT
And did they suffer from being dark? Well I don't look at DAO as being "dark" because it's larger purpose is setting up the rules of its universe, like this is how it is. DA2 is dark game because it expands upon what was setup in DAO, they decided to go that path of being "dark". DAI is the same level of darkness that DA2 setup. The possible assassination of the Empress, Breach, Divine's death, Cory, and most importantly the setup of Solas. So, I don't see how DAI is more lighter in tone then DA2 where a lot of DAI's plot stems from DA2. In no way was DAI on the same level of "darkness" as DA2. In that game Hawke lost familiy members, dabbed in blood magic, gave a party member back into slavery, and saw/committed many evil deeds. DA2 was a rough game. DAI was softer and the IQ didnt face half of what Hawke did.
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Post by majesticjazz on Aug 21, 2017 17:57:57 GMT
Also Bioware needs to move away from the cartoon character villians like Cory and Archon and create complex villains like Loghain. Complex villains have always been present in Dragon Age. This includes Inquisition where we had one called Solas. I'd argue the lack of complex villains applies more to Mass Effect after the death of Saren. Well we will see how complex they keep him in DA4 when he is the central villain and not the "ninja villain"
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Post by shechinah on Aug 21, 2017 18:02:40 GMT
Complex villains have always been present in Dragon Age. This includes Inquisition where we had one called Solas. I'd argue the lack of complex villains applies more to Mass Effect after the death of Saren. Well we will see how complex they keep him in DA4 when he is the central villain and not the "ninja villain" Given what we've seen so far, I consider him to be very promising and I'm very curious as to where they'll take his story. But regardless of where that'll be in the future, Solas is a complex villain that was introduced in Inquisition. Furthermore, we have Anders in Dragon Age II. I know others may disagree but I'd add the Arishok to that list as well. Again, complex villains have always been present in Dragon Age. There's not been an installment in the series where we haven't had a villain of some complexity.
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Post by Andrew Waples on Aug 21, 2017 18:07:04 GMT
Well I don't look at DAO as being "dark" because it's larger purpose is setting up the rules of its universe, like this is how it is. DA2 is dark game because it expands upon what was setup in DAO, they decided to go that path of being "dark". DAI is the same level of darkness that DA2 setup. The possible assassination of the Empress, Breach, Divine's death, Cory, and most importantly the setup of Solas. So, I don't see how DAI is more lighter in tone then DA2 where a lot of DAI's plot stems from DA2. In no way was DAI on the same level of "darkness" as DA2. In that game Hawke lost familiy members, dabbed in blood magic, gave a party member back into slavery, and saw/committed many evil deeds. DA2 was a rough game. DAI was softer and the IQ didnt face half of what Hawke did. So, you think the destruction of the Conclave and the opening of the Breach (that no doubt caused more death then in anything DA2) is lighter then anything in DA2? i would disagree, as that story is focused on a family as opposed to Thedas, but agree to disagree I guess.
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Post by Catilina on Aug 21, 2017 18:18:30 GMT
In no way was DAI on the same level of "darkness" as DA2. In that game Hawke lost familiy members, dabbed in blood magic, gave a party member back into slavery, and saw/committed many evil deeds. DA2 was a rough game. DAI was softer and the IQ didnt face half of what Hawke did. So, you think the destruction of the Conclave and the opening of the Breach (that no doubt caused more death then in anything DA2) is lighter then anything in DA2? i would disagree, as that story is focused on a family as opposed to Thedas, but agree to disagree I guess. That was only the beginning. The end was much more promising. The Inqusitor solved the problems, almost every (despite s/he only was a hand). Hawke fought with a hydra, and not really won. Hawke's story was a greek drama, the Inquisitor's story was a usual fantasy story, with a (more or less) positive hero.
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Post by Zemgus on Aug 21, 2017 18:50:16 GMT
I know I have seen Patrick and Mike imply grimdark storytelling as being overrated and, as others have pointed out, Patrick has also said on more than one occasion that he believes heroes shouldn't torture. I hope that doesn't mean there won't be any choices at all soon. I've seen his tweets where he basically says he won't allow the player character do this or that and I don't like it.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 21, 2017 19:22:29 GMT
A lot of the dark stuff in DAI was in codexes and exploration, rather than a game mechanic as such. There are a lot of dark themes in some of those codexes: rape, mutilation and plenty more. It's there, but it is not shoved straight in your face, I suppose. Thats the problem with DAI, it was "tell but not show" which is a very annoying way to handle a narrative. We were told that the world was a terrible place but rarely saw any of it. Also Bioware needs to move away from the cartoon character villians like Cory and Archon and create complex villains like Loghain. I agree with you on Cory and the Archon/Kett but I think Solas has the potential to be as good if not better than Loghain (and Loghain is my favorite antagonist). I think the next DA game is going to be their best ever, and I was very disappointed in MEA, but the DA team leads have been making DA for a long time and I think they're listening to feedback and getting better every time. I'm super excited to see where the story goes.
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Post by majesticjazz on Aug 21, 2017 19:33:29 GMT
In no way was DAI on the same level of "darkness" as DA2. In that game Hawke lost familiy members, dabbed in blood magic, gave a party member back into slavery, and saw/committed many evil deeds. DA2 was a rough game. DAI was softer and the IQ didnt face half of what Hawke did. So, you think the destruction of the Conclave and the opening of the Breach (that no doubt caused more death then in anything DA2) is lighter then anything in DA2? i would disagree, as that story is focused on a family as opposed to Thedas, but agree to disagree I guess. Lol those are tame compared to the things seen in DAO and DA2. The focus is irrelevent, the point is that as the player, we were exposed to more tragic and depressing events in DAO and DA2 compared to DAI where most of the tragic stuff was done off camera (like the destruction of the conclave). You are in the extreme minority of people who think DAI is on the same level of tone as DAO and DA2.
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Post by majesticjazz on Aug 21, 2017 20:32:50 GMT
Thats the problem with DAI, it was "tell but not show" which is a very annoying way to handle a narrative. We were told that the world was a terrible place but rarely saw any of it. Also Bioware needs to move away from the cartoon character villians like Cory and Archon and create complex villains like Loghain. I agree with you on Cory and the Archon/Kett but I think Solas has the potential to be as good if not better than Loghain (and Loghain is my favorite antagonist). I think the next DA game is going to be their best ever, and I was very disappointed in MEA, but the DA team leads have been making DA for a long time and I think they're listening to feedback and getting better every time. I'm super excited to see where the story goes. Yeah I am really excited for DA4. But then again, I was REALLY excited for MEA as well. With the feedback from DAI and observing the meltdown that was MEA, I think there is no excuse for why DA4 should be a bad game. My concern is that considering the potential setting of the game and how Bioware has hyped it up as being a Renegade's paradise, I fear they will go out of their way to tone Tevinter down and show a less hardened sidr of the place. Tevinter is ripe to tell some dark stories and give us some shady characters like Canderous and HK47 but I doubt Bioware will go that far.
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Post by Kabraxal on Aug 21, 2017 20:45:13 GMT
A lot of the dark stuff in DAI was in codexes and exploration, rather than a game mechanic as such. There are a lot of dark themes in some of those codexes: rape, mutilation and plenty more. It's there, but it is not shoved straight in your face, I suppose. Thats the problem with DAI, it was "tell but not show" which is a very annoying way to handle a narrative. We were told that the world was a terrible place but rarely saw any of it. Also Bioware needs to move away from the cartoon character villians like Cory and Archon and create complex villains like Loghain. Corypheus was quite complex... or did you miss the man out of time, lost and confused while losing his faith arc?
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Post by majesticjazz on Aug 21, 2017 20:55:03 GMT
Thats the problem with DAI, it was "tell but not show" which is a very annoying way to handle a narrative. We were told that the world was a terrible place but rarely saw any of it. Also Bioware needs to move away from the cartoon character villians like Cory and Archon and create complex villains like Loghain. Corypheus was quite complex... or did you miss the man out of time, lost and confused while losing his faith arc? Cory was your standard cartoon/power rangers villain who wanted to just destroy/take over the world because of power.
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Post by shechinah on Aug 21, 2017 21:13:30 GMT
Corypheus was quite complex... or did you miss the man out of time, lost and confused while losing his faith arc? Cory was your standard cartoon/power rangers villain who wanted to just destroy/take over the world because of power. Actually, he was motivated by his crisis of faith more than any lust for power. Due to what he experienced with what he believes to be the Black City, Corypheus thinks that the world is godless and that thought shook him so badly that he resolved to becoming a god himself whose existence was undeniable and whose presence was felt in the world. It ties into Inquisition's theme of faith. Now I do think that Corypheus should have had more dialogue (and a few more victories) to better explore this motivation but even as it is, his motivation is presented including in the conversation with him at Haven.
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Post by linksocarina on Aug 21, 2017 21:31:50 GMT
DAO came across as a true dark fantasy and with DA2 things got lighter and even more lighter with DAI in terms of overall tone. Assuming that DA4 takes place in Tevinter, will/should DA4 have a darker tone and feel like Origins/Awakening or will/should it have a lighter "play it safe" tone like DAI and MEA? Hmm... Dragon Age 2, if you really break it down, was a better representation of doing dark right in the game id argue. Mostly because of the lack of happy endings. Dead family, things uncontrollable beyond the skill of the player, dynamic personalities clashing and honestly, a downer of an ending that was kind of deserved despite the hope for something better. It was a difficult game with a lot of highs and lows attached to it, but it was earned, id say, due to the strength of the overall narrative. More like a tragedy vs a heros journey. Origins had a lot of dark moments but it always had little ray of sunshine at the end of it to grasp on, it was a lot more predictable in that way but for what it was, as a standard BioWare hero story, it did the job. What you imply to be "play it safe" seems to imply you think Inquisition did so? To a certain degree maybe but it was a pretty rough sailings at times, including the fact that you can more or less have an Empress murdered if you chose to do it for a power play in one instance. What is your definition of dark in this case?
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Post by rras1994 on Aug 21, 2017 21:33:03 GMT
Cory was your standard cartoon/power rangers villain who wanted to just destroy/take over the world because of power. Actually, he was motivated by his crisis of faith more than any lust for power. Due to what he experienced with what he believes to be the Black City, Corypheus thinks that the world is godless and that thought shook him so badly that he resolved to becoming a god himself whose existence was undeniable and whose presence was felt in the world. It ties into Inquisition's theme of faith. Now I do think that Corypheus should have had more dialogue (and a few more victories) to better explore this motivation but even as it is, his motivation is presented including in the conversation with him at Haven. I actually thought he was really interesting as well and it annoyed me so much that they didn't expand on it! There was that really cool codex from in the fade with the nightmare demon that I thought really showed into Corypheus as a person. I felt like they had everything set up but didn't quite push it through. If they even had a few cutaways to Corypheus during the game like they did with Loghain to see his point of view I think it would have worked. But then this is just another part of the wider issue that DAI had was they focused too much in the codexes and didn't show it to us. I loved the game but felt sometimes they missed with the build up of emotions and pushing themes because most of the stuff is in the background and can get really easily lost. Part of this I think was cus it was firsttime on frostbyte engine so more things got cut.
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Post by majesticjazz on Aug 22, 2017 0:25:45 GMT
DAO came across as a true dark fantasy and with DA2 things got lighter and even more lighter with DAI in terms of overall tone. Assuming that DA4 takes place in Tevinter, will/should DA4 have a darker tone and feel like Origins/Awakening or will/should it have a lighter "play it safe" tone like DAI and MEA? Hmm... Dragon Age 2, if you really break it down, was a better representation of doing dark right in the game id argue. Mostly because of the lack of happy endings. Dead family, things uncontrollable beyond the skill of the player, dynamic personalities clashing and honestly, a downer of an ending that was kind of deserved despite the hope for something better. It was a difficult game with a lot of highs and lows attached to it, but it was earned, id say, due to the strength of the overall narrative. More like a tragedy vs a heros journey. Origins had a lot of dark moments but it always had little ray of sunshine at the end of it to grasp on, it was a lot more predictable in that way but for what it was, as a standard BioWare hero story, it did the job. What you imply to be "play it safe" seems to imply you think Inquisition did so? To a certain degree maybe but it was a pretty rough sailings at times, including the fact that you can more or less have an Empress murdered if you chose to do it for a power play in one instance. What is your definition of dark in this case? When I mean dark, I mean not being afraid to expose the player to the dangers of the world that the player reads in notes and journals but never actually sees or experiences. Its sort of like swimming in a pool with a life jacket as opposed to swimming without one. Yes, we see a few moments in DAI anf can even order the execution of a few people, but the game never really "goes there". Then there is the visual side of things where DAI was more colorful and sterile compared to the dark and grimy grit of DAO. Then finally was the dialog choices. In DAO and DA2 we had the opportunity shape our Hawke and Warden through many tones of choices, many of them mean/renegade/borderline evil. With DAI, the IQ was a monotone goody2shoe who had a low range or personalities compared to previous DA heros. MEA's Ryder suffered the same.
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Post by theblackadder13 on Aug 22, 2017 2:45:17 GMT
I found a tweet of Patrick Weeks "I enjoyed Jessica Jones and Luke Cage, noped out on Daredevil for torture and Iron Fist for tropes I dislike. Defenders worth watching?" He didn't like Daredevil for the torture bits and since he is the lead writer of DA, it should give you some idea. Ok, I really like Patrick as a writer but this bothers me A LOT. It reminds me of a tweet he made during DAI's development in which he said "we are firmly against torture as something that heroes do" and it does make me worry that future DA titles will go in a more sanitized direction than DA:O and DA2. (Whoever thinks that DA2 isn't dark, I want some of what you're smoking.) Having your own reasons for not wanting to depict torture in a game is one thing (though it's particularly rich coming from a franchise where the first game included monsters forcibly raping a dwarf then having cannibalize her friends and comrades to become a brood mother), but if the reason is "that's not what the good guy should be doing," it's a 100% completely inadequate reason that basically amounts to bad writing. The reason why I play Bioware games isn't to "be the hero" -- although some of my protagonists are the arch typical goody-two shoes hero types, the point imo of an RPG is to play any type of protagonist you want, which is why I'm drawn to Bioware games in the first place as they're ostensibly committed to giving you that sort of choice. In addition to moving away from the dark themes in DAO and DA2, Patrick's statement seems to imply more limited choices that will rail road your protagonist into being an arch typical "good guy." This is especially bad timing as we're heading to Tevinter, which basically necessitates darker themes considering what we know about how fucked up Tevinter society is with all the blood magic and slavery run amuck. Also, on torture specifically, I find his aversion to torture in Daredevil particularly odd because I think the torture element came from the Punisher arch? Daredevil was in no way glorifying torture or the Punisher -- the whole first half of season 2's plot arch was between Daredevil being strongly routed in Catholic morals (IE: being anti-torture) versus ruthlessly seeking revenge like the Punisher. That's an important and interesting and entirely appropriate theme to explore. That's the sort of theme I LIKE to explore in games, movies, books, etc, particularly in Dragon Age and Patrick seems driven to avoid giving us the opportunity to explore those darker themes in DA (regardless of whether the context is torture or something else). Also, the torture in Jessica Jones is much more brazen -- it's probably the darkest (and simultaneously the best) Marvel show. Most of the torture just happens to be psychological but there's even physical torture that Kilgrave inflicts upon others (IE: forcing the man to dismember and put his husband through a food processor in the final episode). I would imagine that Jessica Jones would be a lot more triggering to most people than Daredevil so I'm also concerned that Patrick doesn't seem to have a very nuanced grasp of what torture entails... But anyway, back to DA, my Inquisitor absolutely would have tortured someone not because she's a mustache-twirling psychopath but because she's an intolerant anti-mage ideologue to stamp out magic and anyone who opposes her politically at all costs. (I decided to model her off the real world inquisition, in which torture was an unfortunately common occurrence.) Conversely, my warden would never have entertained the notion of torturing another living being. And my Hawke probably wouldn't opt for torture unless you fucked with his friends/family. (IE: Killing Leandra.) And it's not like you'd have to graphically depict torture on screen -- just have the option and then later the Inquisitor or whoever else can face the repercussions of those actions. (IE: You torutre someone but since torture isn't reliable you get bad intel and that fucks the inquisitor over -- meaningful consequences like that.) I don't mean to root this all in torture, bu that's the context it came up in. I guess my long-winded point is that I think Bioware should give us the opportunity to RP several types of protagonists while exploring multiple themes -- no matter how dark or uncomfortable -- and that includes giving us some pretty dark options and story lines and NPCs. I don't want a sanitized product like DAI that strips a lot of this away because it usually makes the story a lot more boring and less intellectually challenging for the player. I WANT to be challenged with the decisions I make and the story I consume just like DAO and Jessica Jones. DAO was first marketed (and in many ways was) a dark fantasy RPG. That's one of the reasons I started playing and that's the sort of game I want to play. I don't want the DA team to shy away from exploring those themes and I definitely don't want them to curtail options for my character because they have a certain view of how a protagonist should behave. But I fear from Patrick Weakes' comments that he'll be taking DA in the more sanitized direction we saw in DAI. Also, we really need to stop using buzz words like "politically correct." That's a virtually meaningless phrase now fyi. And no, I don't want a story to be dark just for the sake of being dark. But when you're dealing with themes like you deal with in DA a lot of the time it's unavoidable and they shouldn't shy away from that. (I also did enjoy the horror elements in DAO though.)
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Post by isaidlunch on Aug 22, 2017 3:59:59 GMT
Heroes shouldn't torture? Tevinter is going to be a very boring place if that's his attitude, but I can't say I'm surprised after his "Tali is a racist!" remarks.
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