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Post by thats1evildude on Sept 25, 2017 22:50:42 GMT
I sure did read The Masked Empire! That was Patrick's first DA book, so naturally the leads were ... two lesbians. Patrick Weekes is openly pansexual. I don't think it's all that surprising he'd make certain that his characters reflected the fact that not everyone is heterosexual. And yet, David Gaider is gay, but not every character he wrote is gay. Hmmm.
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Post by midnight tea on Sept 25, 2017 22:54:16 GMT
Patrick Weekes is openly pansexual. I don't think it's all that surprising he'd make certain that his characters reflected the fact that not everyone is heterosexual. And yet, David Gaider is gay, but not every character he wrote is gay. Hmmm. Neither is every character Weekes has written is gay. Besides - how did we travel from "Patrick Weekes would tear strips of flesh from his chest if a single gay person said they were offended by his writing", some pointing out that he's written his share of characters that are both gay and controversial and suddenly an issue being that 'all his characters are gay'?
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Post by shechinah on Sept 25, 2017 22:54:21 GMT
And yet, David Gaider is gay, but not every character he wrote is gay. Hmmm. And neither is every character Patrick Weekes has written unless you're of the persuasion that every character, such as in TME, is gay.
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Post by thats1evildude on Sept 25, 2017 22:56:09 GMT
And yet, David Gaider is gay, but not every character he wrote is gay. Hmmm. And neither is every character Patrick Weekes has written unless you're of the persuasion that every character, such as in TME, is gay. No! Absolutely true. Some of them are straight. You can usually identify them when they express really bigoted or evil views. Michel, for instance. And Gaspard.
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Post by midnight tea on Sept 25, 2017 22:57:31 GMT
And neither is every character Patrick Weekes has written unless you're of the persuasion that every character, such as in TME, is gay. No! Absolutely true. Some of them are straight. You can usually identify them when they express really bigoted or evil views. Which was already proved to be untrue.
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Post by shechinah on Sept 25, 2017 22:58:57 GMT
No! Absolutely true. Some of them are straight. You can usually identify them when they express really bigoted or evil views. Michel, for instance. And Gaspard. So you consider Celene to be a completely morally upstanding person?
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Sept 25, 2017 22:59:21 GMT
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Post by shechinah on Sept 25, 2017 22:59:59 GMT
And now I want popcorn with chocolate.
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Post by thats1evildude on Sept 25, 2017 23:00:03 GMT
No! Absolutely true. Some of them are straight. You can usually identify them when they express really bigoted or evil views. Which was already proved to be untrue. How ya figure? Because Celene had her hand forced by Gaspard into purging that alienage? So you consider Celene to be a completely morally upstanding person? Well, more so than Solas, the straightest and therefore most evil elf in Thedas.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 25, 2017 23:00:34 GMT
Patrick Weekes is openly pansexual. I don't think it's all that surprising he'd make certain that his characters reflected the fact that not everyone is heterosexual. And yet, David Gaider is gay, but not every character he wrote is gay. Hmmm. They could be, though. Maybe we should live in a world where if he wanted to, he could write a fully gay cast and no one would lose their shit about it. Or even all women! Who are also not straight! Shocking. I was writing lesbians into my stories before I even knew what sexuality was, so I'm not real sympathetic to the idea that they don't belong in the media.
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Post by shechinah on Sept 25, 2017 23:01:53 GMT
Which was already proved to be untrue. How ya figure? Because Celene had her hand forced by Gaspard into purging that alienage? So lying to Briala about Celene's part in the murder of her parents and keeping Briala as a lover?
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Post by midnight tea on Sept 25, 2017 23:02:18 GMT
No! Absolutely true. Some of them are straight. You can usually identify them when they express really bigoted or evil views. Michel, for instance. And Gaspard. So you think Celene is completely morally upstanding person? ... Are there really that many characters he's written that are completely morally upstanding people? His MO seems to be writing complex characters who are more in the grey rather than extreme sides of the moral spectrum.
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Post by midnight tea on Sept 25, 2017 23:05:43 GMT
Which was already proved to be untrue. How ya figure? Because Celene had her hand forced by Gaspard into purging that alienage? Yes, because that's the only questionable thing Celene has done. Or Briala for that matter. Seems you're twisting him to be most evil to fit your theory. Funny that the fandom doesn't necessarily agrees with you, neither does his author.
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Post by thats1evildude on Sept 25, 2017 23:33:19 GMT
In any case, I didn't intend an argument about the essence and visibility of gay people in media. My initial point was about whether Patrick had it in him to portray Tevinter as the snake pit we all know it to be.
Does he have the guts to depict slaves being purchased at market? To show them actually being used for sexual gratification as well as menial labour? What about their sacrifice in blood rituals?
Or will he, in all likelihood, bend to the will of people who are offended by even the negative depiction of rape, slavery and so forth? Will only the straightest and whitest (and therefore evilest) of magisters be opposed to reform in Tevinter? Will Maevaris own slaves, or will he chicken out and make her Saint Tilani, the purest and noblest soul in the Tevinter Imperium?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 25, 2017 23:51:13 GMT
What I don't get is why you're putting this all on Weekes. Mark and Mike have a lot of influence on what themes get explored in depth, too. In DA:I they decided to focus on themes of hope, faith, and compassion. Next game it'll probably be freedom vs security with a side dish of forgiveness.
As for Maevaris, Weekes never does any of his favorites any favors, in my opinion, except to make them interesting to learn more about. He's very good about making them flawed and making them suffer. The only one he wrote who didn't have a potential bad end, I think, was Cole and that depends on how you feel about Maryden.
Saint Tilani would make a cool t-shirt (with the caveat that to be a saint you kind of have to be dead, and I'd prefer that not to happen to her, unless justified by the story).
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Post by FireAndBlood on Sept 25, 2017 23:56:21 GMT
So you consider Celene to be a completely morally upstanding person? Well, more so than Solas, the straightest and therefore most evil elf in Thedas. You are absolutely right, Patrick Weekes is on a hellbent mission to vilify the heterosexual race! But as long as you and I are there to guard the realms of "no homo" then the fiendish SJWLGBTQLOL menace can never win! Come my straight brother, let us whip out our dicks and stand fast against all our enemies!!!!!!!!!!
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Post by midnight tea on Sept 26, 2017 0:03:14 GMT
In any case, I didn't intend an argument about the essence and visibility of gay people in media. My initial point was about whether Patrick had it in him to portray Tevinter as the snake pit we all know it to be. Does he have the guts to depict slaves being purchased at market? To show them actually being used for sexual gratification as well as menial labour? What about their sacrifice in blood rituals? Or will he, in all likelihood, bend to the will of people who are offended by even the negative depiction of rape, slavery and so forth? Will only the straightest and whitest (and therefore evilest) of magisters be opposed to reform in Tevinter? Will Maevaris own slaves, or will he chicken out and make her Saint Tilani, the purest and noblest soul in the Tevinter Imperium? I don't think anybody was making an argument about 'essence and visibility of gay people in media', but addressed the exact point you were making. Also - portraying every creative decision that isn't to your liking as 'bending to offended people' does everybody a disservice, if not uncovers an agenda to try and make the creators cave in another direction, by accusing them of the above. But not all creative decisions that don't do what someone likes is caving in to somebody else's demands. I myself have stories in which people deal with a lot of gruesome stuff and sometimes choose to tone it down. Why? Way more often than 'being afraid to offend someone' it's because a.) it's unnecessary b.) it's cheap c.) it doesn't really gets across what I want it to get across d.) it's been done approximately 19371863180308173 zillion times before.
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Post by thats1evildude on Sept 26, 2017 0:03:35 GMT
What I don't get is why you're putting this all on Weekes. Because he's now the lead writer. That does not give him ultimate control over DA's fate, but it does give him some power.
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Post by pinkjellybeans on Sept 26, 2017 11:14:59 GMT
I personally think the camera angle is partly to blame. Not that Bioware was ever great at facial expressions but the fact that so many conversations happen with the camera zoomed out at an angle where we can't see the face of the person we're talking to or our own character's face as they respond. We never get close ups on demons or the undead, or darkspawn. This is a great point and I remember this being discussed on the official forums around the time the game was released. I honestly never knew I was fighting darkspawn until I got real close to them or just click on them and read the label. I was honestly shocked when I googled "despair demons" and saw what they actually looked like. It's a shame really. A lot of the designs are amazing and really detailed and scary but we never see it up close because there's not a single cutscene outside of the main story. So everything ends up being forgettable and you stop caring about these cardboard cutouts NPCs that show no emotion and these creatures that don't look that scary because you can't actually see their faces.
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Post by gervaise21 on Sept 26, 2017 13:57:22 GMT
I would point out that I don't think there is a single character in Masked Empire that comes off well in terms of morality. All are flawed individuals to the extent that I really didn't care about any of them achieving their goals, except perhaps Briala because she was actually fighting for the elves.
What I objected to in the book was the portrayal of the Dalish clan as extreme bigots and actually holding views contrary to every clan we had encountered in game and in the codices regarding how they viewed their relationship to city elves. This was, of course, necessary from his plot point of view in order that Briala could safely condemned them as a consequence and all her group could leave them to be ripped apart by Imshael without seeming the villains of the piece.
I was actually more concerned about the direction the writing took with regard to the Dalish than whether or not particular characters are gay or straight.
With regard to the next game I hope they do portray Tevinter accurately according to the lore that has been established. It was noticeable than when Dorian was defending the institution of slavery in Tevinter that you were not allowed to really challenge him on this and in particular the aspect of "favoured slaves" when it came to what Tevinter society considers appropriate homosexual behaviour. So we don't have to see things explicitly portrayed but equally the issues surrounding slavery in Tevinter should not be skirted round altogether. They certainly weren't averse to showing how Templars can abuse their position of power so that should be equally true of Tevinter society.
I also hope we get the focus back on blood magic since its use is meant to be so widespread in Tevinter society but not simply the abuse of power that seems associated with it in their culture but also whether there is an inherent danger in its use (as suggested in the Last Flight) that has nothing to do with demon possession or mistreatment of slaves.
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Post by xeternalxdreams on Sept 26, 2017 15:32:53 GMT
I enjoyed all the novels of DA and DA (some more than others). The tone of the games always seemed somewhat "dark". DA:O was definitely persistent in its' darker plotline and quest. DA2 had its' dark moments but my snarky Hawke diffused those situations and made light of it.
DAI had a overall lighter tone but the situations (some major decisions) did present some darker tones.
I believe I would enjoy the darker tones of DA:O in the new DA but I would be fine either way. I'm really worried about how they will handle the open world as sometimes it would feel like a slog to get to the fun parts.
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Post by formerfiend on Sept 26, 2017 17:02:03 GMT
I personally think the camera angle is partly to blame. Not that Bioware was ever great at facial expressions but the fact that so many conversations happen with the camera zoomed out at an angle where we can't see the face of the person we're talking to or our own character's face as they respond. We never get close ups on demons or the undead, or darkspawn. This is a great point and I remember this being discussed on the official forums around the time the game was released. I honestly never knew I was fighting darkspawn until I got real close to them or just click on them and read the label. I was honestly shocked when I googled "despair demons" and saw what they actually looked like. It's a shame really. A lot of the designs are amazing and really detailed and scary but we never see it up close because there's not a single cutscene outside of the main story. So everything ends up being forgettable and you stop caring about these cardboard cutouts NPCs that show no emotion and these creatures that don't look that scary because you can't actually see their faces. Video games, like film, are a visual medium and so much of the impression we get, and so much of the information we get is visual and due to the framing. I don't want Bioware to go the route of modern shooters where the whole game is just a line we follow so the camera can look at the very impressive skyboxes that we can't go to, but it would behoove them to put some cutscenes outside of the main story so the whole world isn't shot at the same flat angle that doesn't convey or highlight any emotion and doesn't emphasize any specific tone.
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Post by midnight tea on Sept 26, 2017 18:27:55 GMT
This is a great point and I remember this being discussed on the official forums around the time the game was released. I honestly never knew I was fighting darkspawn until I got real close to them or just click on them and read the label. I was honestly shocked when I googled "despair demons" and saw what they actually looked like. It's a shame really. A lot of the designs are amazing and really detailed and scary but we never see it up close because there's not a single cutscene outside of the main story. So everything ends up being forgettable and you stop caring about these cardboard cutouts NPCs that show no emotion and these creatures that don't look that scary because you can't actually see their faces. Video games, like film, are a visual medium and so much of the impression we get, and so much of the information we get is visual and due to the framing. I don't want Bioware to go the route of modern shooters where the whole game is just a line we follow so the camera can look at the very impressive skyboxes that we can't go to, but it would behoove them to put some cutscenes outside of the main story so the whole world isn't shot at the same flat angle that doesn't convey or highlight any emotion and doesn't emphasize any specific tone. Video games are not just visual medium. Visual part is a big chunk of it, especially the more game designers can do with it now compared to before, but unlike movies games are a.) interactive and b.) we have influence on its pacing and c.) it can use way more devices to framing, setup up or exposition, like text, audio, path we take or variety of gameplay mechanics.
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Post by smilesja on Sept 26, 2017 18:34:38 GMT
Dragon Age 2 was possibly the darkest in the series, its not surprising that DAI became lighter as a result. I wouldn't be surprised if the next game is more darker due to Solas intentions.
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Post by hero11n7 on Sept 27, 2017 15:41:40 GMT
I'm not so concerned about it being dark as much as I am about it being morally complex.
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