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Post by Ieldra on Sept 23, 2016 11:09:59 GMT
I'm making this thread to discuss the ethics and meta-ethics around, and relevant to, the Collector base decision in ME2 and preserving and using Maelon's genophage data to produce a reversing agent for the genophage in ME3 and ME2. This is an offshoot of a debate in the "Unpopular opinions" thread, which I think deserves its own space.
I'm using the title "Unclean resources" because whatever decision we make in the end, most of us likely share a certain discomfort about keeping the Collector base and preserving Maelon's data, and you can identify this discomfort as the same intuition that brings people from specific cultures to label something "unclean", "impure" or "tainted", a sort of unreflected, intuitive rejection that results in the desire to keep away of the element in question, regardless of whether they end up condemning contact with it or use of it as immoral.
The essence of condemning use of the CB/Maelon's data on this basis lies in Mirandas statement that the idea of using "anything from" the CB "feels like a betrayal" (which I really hate, for reasons very much relevant to this debate). The plain fact is: there is no one who would be betrayed by, say, deciphering the methods of Reaper construction, so why does she say this? In a debate about Maelon's data on another thread, someone said that not using them is "a matter of principle" for them. Which moral principle would be violated by using those data? It is none that I recognize, but people use different principles, so I ask: which one is it for you, if you condemn use of those data?
At the other extreme, there are those like me, for whom keeping the CB is, well, almost a moral obligation - which is, I'm quite sure, as incomprehensible to those at the other end of the scale as their position is to me. Why do we think like that, and on which intuition is this based? I have a strong desire not to condemn the action. I can give a number of good reasons for keeping those data, but I don't really know where that desire not to condemn it comes from. It's most certainly not because don't care about the Reaperized people, or the people killed by Maelon, as a few people at the other extreme of the scale have accused me. Meanwhile, my side has accused the other of being guided by sentimentality.
Between those extremes are a number of commonly held opinions, such as "I don't want to support Cerberus and their atrocities" (of course, now we all know it didn't matter because Cerberus got enough from the CB debris anyway, but back then we didn't know), "We can't destroy a resource that may be the deciding factor between extinction and survival" (of course, now we all know it was not relevant, but back then we didn't know).
The objective of this thread is to explore, not to find who is right or wrong, and if I descend into that kind of thinking I'll apologize in advance - I feel passionately about this, my reasoning is as much influenced by my passion as everyone else's, and after all we are talking about morality, where we are all predisposed to being judgmental.
I would like to stress that according to most current research on the subject, our morality is intuitive at its base, and reasoning comes after it. So, if you have perfectly good reasons for your decision, that hold up to rational inquiry, I would still like you to think about where the desire to use them - the desire to condemn or not to condemn, comes from.
------
With that out of the way, I'll describe how I react to situations like this, with a focus on the emotional component. In short, I'll always try to find reasons to keep the resource. I don't know if I describe this appropriately, since I have little data to compare it to, but destroying those resources feels like sacrilege to me, comparable to burning books (that scene in Raiders of the Lost Ark sometimes makes me cry), only stronger. I can give a number of reasons for my decision to keep them, which I think hold up to scrutiny if you use strategic reasoning and consequentialist ethics (this is an enemy HQ and we're in a war for survival, as the most relevant IMO, or for the genophage data "I don't know if I'd cure the genophage, but surely it's better to keep the options open"), but, while those are perfectly valid, in the end it would probably be more to the point to say "I desperately don't want to destroy them". I have played one or the other game where I destroyed those resources. The effect: for the rest of those games, I felt like I had betrayed myself.
Why that? I can only speculate. One of the reasons may be that I'm a techno-progressivist. Anything that furthers understanding of something is of great value, and you don't destroy it without a pressing necessity. It would probably be correct to say that for me, understanding, knowledge and technological capability have a moral weight. They are, not just in a practical but in a moral sense, a good, because advancement is fundamentally desirable. Another reason is very likely that I don't believe in intangible evils and victimless crimes. I have always experienced any claim for their relevance as arbitrary. Of course, destroying those resources comes across as a sacrilege to me, and neither does that have victims, so I'm basically using the same category myself, in order to explain my own actions if not to condemn others. Not that I don't *desire* to condemn others who destroy those resources, but I don't want to be a hypocrite and so I won't.
Oddly enough, the main argument I end up using for keeping the CB has little to do with all that: Survival is more important than morality. This is a fundamental assertion. On the individual level, it can be countered by the assertion that some things are worth dying for, which I do not contest. Things are a little more difficult if it comes to survival of the species. On that level, it can only be countered by the claim "If we keep that resource, humanity will become something not worth existing". This position, while I don't agree that it applies here strongly enough to be compelling, has some merit, if we consider what TIM does to the Cerberus troopers in ME3. I've never seen anyone use that as an argument, but is the only one I could use without feeling as if I betrayed myself.....
So, that was my part. Imagine my surprise about finding an argument against keeping the CB that I can actually use, by my own reasoning, 6 years after ME2. I still prefer to keep it, and I don't find the new argument compelling enough to apply with necessity, but at least I can now envision a Shepard who destroys it who I could play. Of course, it uses consequentialist reasoning, so my meta-ethics have stayed intact.
Now it's everyone else's turn.
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Post by TopTrog on Sept 23, 2016 17:19:13 GMT
You make some interesting points here, so I will happily throw in my 5 cents . I destroyed the CB every time and I also kept Maelon´s data every time in the game. So for me the issue that connects these two events is not one that has a single, universally applicable solution. I agree with you that knowledge and understanding has value in and by itself, that is not even a point that I find debatable. I also agree that the means by which the knowledge has been obtained is not by default a sufficient reason to automatically erase it. But I also think that both the means by which the knowledge has been obtained and the immediately foreseeable consequences of preserving or destroying it clearly factors into such a decision, and sometimes decisively so. Let´s start with the first one, which is Maelon´s data. Obtained by unspeakable experiments, it has potentially high value to counter a possible extinction-level threat that may arise in the future. This is what made me save it. This does not by any means imply that the possible value of the data mitigates the method used to obtain it, let alone that the ends justify the means in this case. Without the potential extinction-level threat, erasing it would have been my choice. In this case, the value of the data is outweighed by the immediate dangers posed by it. Yes, the Illusive Man resurrected me (thanks, buddy) and unlike the ineffective council he got the importance of the Collector and Reaper threat dead right and went on to counter it, but he´s still a dangerous megalomaniac who can not be trusted and whom I am not going to provide with a potential weapon of mass destruction unless there is an overriding or mitigating reason. Had the option existed to give him a deliberately sabotaged version of it, I would have chosen that. That it was not there made the decision to keep it harder, but the implied (and later actualized) possibility of also using the data otherwise influenced my call here. Still quite a reckless decision. The collector base was the easier choice for me. It has potentially high value to counter a possible extinction-level threat that may arise in the future. But I have to give it to the Illusive Man for his exclusive use, thereby creating an immediate threat. I think that Miranda´s objection that "keeping it feels like betrayal" can not be dismissed automatically, but is not sufficient to destroy it. Shepard´s own objection is sufficient ("Human domination or Cerberus ?"). It would not even have taken the Illusive Man for me to make this choice, anyone arguing to obtain something like that for the purpose of dominating the world was not going to get it. Ironically, the morality of keeping the "unclean resource" did not play into my decisions here, because the extinction-level threat and immediate dangerous consequences dominated them for me. Can it be justified to erase knowledge due to the means by which it was obtained ? Absolutely. It involves weighing the specific value of the knowledge against the value of morality and more specifically clearly and openly sanctioning gross violations of it. To give an example from a video game, openly destroying the data and knowledge from something like the "Hyron Project" from Deus Ex Human Revolution (disregarding how well or badly that one was written) in order to make the point is something that I would regard to be a correct decision.
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Post by straykat on Sept 23, 2016 17:53:46 GMT
I'm not very utilitarian. Nuff said, I guess. I try to be mindful of principles first.
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Post by Ieldra on Sept 23, 2016 18:15:41 GMT
I'm not very utilitarian. Nuff said, I guess. I try to be mindful of principles first. Which principles?
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Post by straykat on Sept 23, 2016 18:27:44 GMT
I'm not very utilitarian. Nuff said, I guess. I try to be mindful of principles first. Which principles? The first principles. It doesn't matter what they are. It's utilitarianism that make room for a second order. I'm not one of them. That's kind of my point.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 23, 2016 18:31:54 GMT
There is an inherent difference between Maelon's data and the Collector Base.
The issue surrounding Maelon's data... as I was pointing out on the other thread is that it is not immediately apparent how the "motive" of the scientist who displayed the unethical behavior (by doing brutal experiments) tainted the observation and recording of the data... leading to several of possible factors you clearly listed as being able to taint data enough to render it unusable - forging of results, biased samples, etc. Since the game presents no option for Maelon's data to fail Mordin (i.e. cause him to generate an "harmful" cure), the question of the data possibly being tainted is really just made irrelevant by the game... the data ultimately are just "assumed" to be good data since saving Eve is only contingent upon whether or not (in a quick decision), Shepard (who isn't a scientist) decides to keep it... just in case. To me, the only logical solution to Mordin's loyalty quest is to keep the data... keeping it does nothing since there is no immediate intent to use it. Why not give Mordin the time to study it to see if he can sort out where specifically Maelon's motives may have tainted his recording of experimental result.
The Collector Base is an object, not data. The data on the object can only be acquired by studying the object. The moral question with the Collector Base issue is not whether or not it should be kept, but whether it should be turned over to TIM. Since Shepard doesn't have an option to keep the base and still keep it out of TIM's hands, Shepard has to decide whether to destroy the base and forfeit the potential study of it in order to keep it out of TIM's hands. The convo does provide Shepard with an opportunity to indicate to TIM, the level of mistrust he/she has for him "Next thing I know you'll be trying to grow your own Reaper." It's not a question of tainted data... it whether or not a "tainted" scientist or the "enemy" should be given access to objects for study... or is a "scorched earth" policy safer? When Shepard says "I won't let fear compromise who I am." He/she is saying... I can't trust the people I would have to turn this "goldmine" over to, I have no way not to turn it over to them if I can't, so I'm going to have faith that "we" can fight the Reapers and win without that knowledge. Shepard knows that destroying the base will make it tougher to fight the Reapers. However, not destroying the base could make it even tougher - making it necessary to also fight a "Cerberus Reaper." His/her focus Reaper-wise is on stopping the Reapers from getting back into the galaxy. He/she doesn't want Cerberus making one inside the Galaxy that could pick up the process where Sovereign left off.
I essentially always save Maelon's data. Whether or not I save the base depends on how deeply that Shepard mistrusts TIM.
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Post by straykat on Sept 23, 2016 18:38:21 GMT
The Collector Base is an object, not data. The data on the object can only be acquired by studying the object. The moral question with the Collector Base issue is not whether or not it should be kept, but whether it should be turned over to TIM. Since Shepard doesn't have an option to keep the base and still keep it out of TIM's hands, Shepard has to decide whether to destroy the base and forfeit the potential study of it in order to keep it out of TIM's hands. The convo does provide Shepard with an opportunity to indicate to TIM, the level of mistrust he/she has for him "Next thing I know you'll be trying to grow your own Reaper." It's not a question of tainted data... it whether or not a "tainted" scientist or the "enemy" should be given access to objects for study... or is a "scorched earth" policy safer? When Shepard says "I won't let fear compromise who I am." He/she is saying... I can't trust the people I would have to turn this "goldmine" over to, I have no way not to turn it over to them if I can't, so I'm going to have faith that "we" can fight the Reapers and win without that knowledge. That isn't the only reason why Shepard refuses the Collector Base. He laces his opinions with words like "soul of humanity" and "abomination". It is abhorrent in and of itself.
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Post by Ieldra on Sept 23, 2016 18:42:19 GMT
The first principles. It doesn't matter what they are. It's utilitarianism that make room for a second order. I'm not one of them. That's kind of my point. I get that you reject any kind of utilitarianism. I conclude your meta-ethics are deontological. Still, there are various principles that have been used to construct deontological systems of morality in human history. I am curious about which ones you consider relevant. What do you consider a "first" principle? The statement alone that you use one tells me exactly nothing. There is no consent about what first principles are.
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Post by Ieldra on Sept 23, 2016 18:52:29 GMT
The Collector Base is an object, not data. The data on the object can only be acquired by studying the object. The moral question with the Collector Base issue is not whether or not it should be kept, but whether it should be turned over to TIM. Since Shepard doesn't have an option to keep the base and still keep it out of TIM's hands, Shepard has to decide whether to destroy the base and forfeit the potential study of it in order to keep it out of TIM's hands. The convo does provide Shepard with an opportunity to indicate to TIM, the level of mistrust he/she has for him "Next thing I know you'll be trying to grow your own Reaper." It's not a question of tainted data... it whether or not a "tainted" scientist or the "enemy" should be given access to objects for study... or is a "scorched earth" policy safer? When Shepard says "I won't let fear compromise who I am." He/she is saying... I can't trust the people I would have to turn this "goldmine" over to, I have no way not to turn it over to them if I can't, so I'm going to have faith that "we" can fight the Reapers and win without that knowledge. That isn't the only reason why Shepard refuses the Collector Base. He laces his opinions with words like "soul of humanity" and "abomination". It is abhorrent in and of itself. Indeed so. If you follow the paragon conversation options, Shepard speaks in terms of a spiritual taint. The base is regarded as something that fundamentally should not exist because of what was done there. I think that this indicates that regarding the base as an unclean resource is the intended interpretation of the scene, no matter that you can also construct utilitarian reasons to destroy it. This is different from the situation with Maelon's data, where there are no comparable statements as far as I recall.
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Post by straykat on Sept 23, 2016 18:54:28 GMT
The first principles. It doesn't matter what they are. It's utilitarianism that make room for a second order. I'm not one of them. That's kind of my point. I get that you reject any kind of utilitarianism. I conclude your meta-ethics are deontological. Still, there are various principles that have been used to construct deontological systems of morality in human history. I am curious about which ones you consider relevant. What do you consider a "first" principle? The statement alone that you use one tells me exactly nothing. You're opening up a can of worms. You just need to know I don't take a situational approach. Morals aren't fluid to everyone. This isn't unique. If you want me to really get into my specific philosophy, this thread will spiral downwards. We'll have to start talking about religion. I'd rather not. Besides that, play how you want. I'm not here to challenge or change you. I just wanted to write a short post.
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Post by Ieldra on Sept 23, 2016 18:59:03 GMT
I get that you reject any kind of utilitarianism. I conclude your meta-ethics are deontological. Still, there are various principles that have been used to construct deontological systems of morality in human history. I am curious about which ones you consider relevant. What do you consider a "first" principle? The statement alone that you use one tells me exactly nothing. You're opening up a can of worms. You just need to know I don't take a situational approach. Morals aren't fluid to everyone. This isn't unique. If you want me to really get into my specific philosophy, this thread will spiral downwards. We'll have to start talking about religion. I'd rather not. Besides that, play how you want. I'm not here to challenge or change you. I just wanted to write a short post. All right, all right. I did not ask in order to challenge you aftewards, I was just curious. So you use principles derived from religion. OK. I can leave it at that.
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Post by straykat on Sept 23, 2016 19:01:54 GMT
You're opening up a can of worms. You just need to know I don't take a situational approach. Morals aren't fluid to everyone. This isn't unique. If you want me to really get into my specific philosophy, this thread will spiral downwards. We'll have to start talking about religion. I'd rather not. Besides that, play how you want. I'm not here to challenge or change you. I just wanted to write a short post. All right, all right. I did not ask in order to challenge you aftewards, I was just curious. So you use principles derived from religion. OK. I can leave it at that. Cool. I still like the thread btw. Don't mean to come off too dismissive or anything.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 23, 2016 22:00:01 GMT
The Collector Base is an object, not data. The data on the object can only be acquired by studying the object. The moral question with the Collector Base issue is not whether or not it should be kept, but whether it should be turned over to TIM. Since Shepard doesn't have an option to keep the base and still keep it out of TIM's hands, Shepard has to decide whether to destroy the base and forfeit the potential study of it in order to keep it out of TIM's hands. The convo does provide Shepard with an opportunity to indicate to TIM, the level of mistrust he/she has for him "Next thing I know you'll be trying to grow your own Reaper." It's not a question of tainted data... it whether or not a "tainted" scientist or the "enemy" should be given access to objects for study... or is a "scorched earth" policy safer? When Shepard says "I won't let fear compromise who I am." He/she is saying... I can't trust the people I would have to turn this "goldmine" over to, I have no way not to turn it over to them if I can't, so I'm going to have faith that "we" can fight the Reapers and win without that knowledge. That isn't the only reason why Shepard refuses the Collector Base. He laces his opinions with words like "soul of humanity" and "abomination". It is abhorrent in and of itself. He/she can say that the base is an abomination... it's a visceral reaction to what he/she has seen... and that reaction makes it more likely that he/she "wants" to destroy it as well. Can't remember the context of the "soul of humanity" line right now... I'll have to go back to play that part to see where it comes in. I almost suspect it's a line I'm not getting because I'm selecting something else at that time. (Which sort of goes back to the point I was making on yet another thread... Some people playing may want to add in a religious element to their characterization of Shepard, so the line is there so that different players can attach different levels of importance to it or just ignore it completely when interpreting what it is that Shepard is doing. If the game were not constructed in this way, player "options" for characterization would be even further diminished.) In ME3, he/she can confirm that the based was destroyed because he/she couldn't trust TIM with the information. I think my point still stands though... Scientific ethics about "unclean data" are generally applied to researched data, not as yet "unresearched objects." They are also generally applied to decisions made by scientists... not to decisions made by soldiers. Similarly, when deciding to keep or destroy Maelon's data, Shepard's decision to destroy Maelon's data can be based on simple distrust of Mordin (although the conversation doesn't directly go at it that way - i.e. Shepard can lie and blow smoke up someone's arse). This would then parallel the Collector Base decision - posing the question, should unethical scientists be given access to information if you suspect they'll just misuse it. In general, the loyalty missions in ME2 sort of suffer because none of them (except Zaeed's - which is DLC) really give Shepard the option to come to the conclusion that he can't trust his squad member (i.e. perhaps Bioware should have inserted more options to boot squaddies off the team at the end of their loyalty missions).
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Sept 24, 2016 0:17:31 GMT
Why is this an issue?
Information is information no matter how it was created. Maelon's data might have been based on brutal experiments but you ended them. Throwing away the data is stupid.
Collector Base how ever is another story. That kind of technology being allowed into the hands of TIM doesn't make any sense or have any logic short of a Shepard being a Human Supremacist like TIM. Shared among the races of the galaxy yes. Shared with a single group that has very questionable motives and questionable ethics. Not so much.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 24, 2016 2:18:36 GMT
Why is this an issue? Information is information no matter how it was created. Maelon's data might have been based on brutal experiments but you ended them. Throwing away the data is stupid. Collector Base how ever is another story. That kind of technology being allowed into the hands of TIM doesn't make any sense or have any logic short of a Shepard being a Human Supremacist like TIM. Shared among the races of the galaxy yes. Shared with a single group that has very questionable motives and questionable ethics. Not so much. Scientific ethicists disagree with that concept as scientific history has shown that data created with a bias built into the experiments frequently yields unreliable data. The problem then for subsequent researchers building upon that data is how to sort out what individual pieces of the data have been inordinately influenced by the biases of the previous researcher. Researchers that also have their own agenda to fulfill can also tend towards things like falsification of data when experiment results don't match their preconceived expectations. I agree that just throwing it away would be "stupid" but Mordin basically just picking it up and trusting it to produce a cure quickly is, in many ways, even more stupid... even scientifically unethical in its own right.
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Sept 24, 2016 2:32:02 GMT
Why is this an issue? Information is information no matter how it was created. Maelon's data might have been based on brutal experiments but you ended them. Throwing away the data is stupid. Collector Base how ever is another story. That kind of technology being allowed into the hands of TIM doesn't make any sense or have any logic short of a Shepard being a Human Supremacist like TIM. Shared among the races of the galaxy yes. Shared with a single group that has very questionable motives and questionable ethics. Not so much. Scientific ethicists disagree with that concept as scientific history has shown that data created with a bias built into the experiments frequently yields unreliable data. The problem then for subsequent researchers building upon that data is how to sort out what individual pieces of the data have been inordinately influenced by the biases of the previous researcher. Researchers that also have their own agenda to fulfill can also tend towards things like falsification of data when experiment results don't match their preconceived expectations. I agree that just throwing it away would be "stupid" but Mordin basically just picking it up and trusting it to produce a cure quickly is, in many ways, even more stupid... even scientifically unethical in its own right. You can't bias research a cure to a sterility plague. Particularly true when you have a clan full of heavily armed and pissed off Krogan right behind your back. Telling them you haven't found a cure yet might piss them off even more but you would still be alive. Telling them you found a cure and then it not working would make them kill you. You would want to be very unbias to ensure you have the best chance to survive.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 24, 2016 2:50:31 GMT
Scientific ethicists disagree with that concept as scientific history has shown that data created with a bias built into the experiments frequently yields unreliable data. The problem then for subsequent researchers building upon that data is how to sort out what individual pieces of the data have been inordinately influenced by the biases of the previous researcher. Researchers that also have their own agenda to fulfill can also tend towards things like falsification of data when experiment results don't match their preconceived expectations. I agree that just throwing it away would be "stupid" but Mordin basically just picking it up and trusting it to produce a cure quickly is, in many ways, even more stupid... even scientifically unethical in its own right. You can't bias research a cure to a sterility plague. Particularly true when you have a clan full of heavily armed and pissed off Krogan right behind your back. Telling them you haven't found a cure yet might piss them off even more but you would still be alive. Telling them you found a cure and then it not working would make them kill you. You would want to be very unbias to ensure you have the best chance to survive. Oh yes you can. The autism/vaccination research scandal... case in point.
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Sept 24, 2016 2:53:09 GMT
You can't bias research a cure to a sterility plague. Particularly true when you have a clan full of heavily armed and pissed off Krogan right behind your back. Telling them you haven't found a cure yet might piss them off even more but you would still be alive. Telling them you found a cure and then it not working would make them kill you. You would want to be very unbias to ensure you have the best chance to survive. Oh yes you can. The autism/vaccination research scandal... case in point. Yea did they have a 400 LBS fully armored Krogan with a shot gun capable of turning their body into a fine pink mist standing behind them?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 24, 2016 2:58:28 GMT
Oh yes you can. The autism/vaccination research scandal... case in point. Yea did they have a 400 LBS fully armored Krogan with a shot gun capable of turning their body into a fine pink mist standing behind them? They had Jenny McCarthy and Autism "warrior moms" on one side (just as intimidating as fully armored Krogan) along with a formerly credible researcher (later shown to be less than credible - and I'm being kind there) vs. research sponsored by big vaccine companies on the other (publicly mistrusted as being biased). Children paid the price. It took many years and several less biased studies to sort out the mess... and some still don't consider it to be settled.
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Post by Harnette on Sept 24, 2016 4:14:34 GMT
I recently went through the Collector Base again and the thing I regretted the most was that ME2 was definitely the beginning of Mass Effect's leaning more towards a drama first storyline.
Between the two events, it never really bothered me that these resources were unclean. Like Mordin said, "Not my methods" and I don't condone what was done obviously. But in real life, I wouldn't be willing to ignore these advances if it could help me or others I care about. I feel similar about Blood Magic in Dragon Age; its a tool that can be used or misused.
I always save the genophage data because I trust Mordin and keeping it doesn't immediately commit me to anything I might disagree with (I can still sabotage the genopahge if I choose). And I enjoy preserving and earning knowledge.
Which brings me to the Collector Base. I have no idea what I'm preserving or how useful it will be. The only thing I knew it did was build Reapers. Whereas in ME1, the prothean ciper was a testament to how knowledge was our greatest weapon, ME2 always felt like knowledge was the enemy.
TIM had all the knowledge and never entrusted me with it so why would I trust him to use the base? Every other Cerberus project, while mildly successful, tends to end in disaster.
Saving the base makes the most sense in the long run but the story makes it really hard to take that at face value when Miranda and Jacob are ready to resign over the decision and TIM only gives vague suggestions to the possibilities.
So I blow the base most of the time. But not because I believe its an "unclean" resource. I do it because I don't trust TIM. If I could've been running Cerberus myself or some other powerful organization that had the capabilities, I would be way more likely to keep it.
Also, sidenote to OP: Do you feel that the House Divided quest with the Geth virus would fit into this category of debate? I ask only because it presents a somewhat similar dilemma: use your enemy's weapon against them when its creation can be perceived as unclean by human ethics?
But then again, Legion destroys it after the fact anyways.
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Post by Ieldra on Sept 24, 2016 5:22:30 GMT
Why is this an issue? Information is information no matter how it was created. Maelon's data might have been based on brutal experiments but you ended them. Throwing away the data is stupid. Collector Base how ever is another story. That kind of technology being allowed into the hands of TIM doesn't make any sense or have any logic short of a Shepard being a Human Supremacist like TIM. Shared among the races of the galaxy yes. Shared with a single group that has very questionable motives and questionable ethics. Not so much. Personally, I agree with you that destroying information because of how it was created is stupid, but many people recognize that "spiritual taint" I spoke of in my answer to straycat as morally relevant, and if you follow the paragon dialogue at the CB, that - and not possible bad effects of giving the CB to TIM - is exactly what the decision is intended to be about if you take the full paragon path (as opposed to following the neutral path and then destroying the base, IIRC). You and I may not recognize that as relevant, but studies appear to indicate that people not from western cultures, and many conservatives, tend to do so. People like you and me are an exception, worldwide, even though we may be the majority among players of Bioware games. Why is that so? I think it's because a descriptive account of human morality would show us that it is about more than promoting fairness and avoidance of harm in a society of autonomous individuals. It's about creating and sustaining functional communities. Naturally, that function loses importance as a society gets more individualistic, but it has, so far, never become irrelevant. Oh yes you can. The autism/vaccination research scandal... The scientific validity of the data is never the issue in these decisions. If it were, there would be a decision to keep the data for further testing. For instance, all we have in Maelon's case is "keep it in case we need it". The decision to to destroy it (on the full paragon path in case of the CB) is about the moral validity of the resource itself. Both in the case of Maelon's data and the CB, the relevant moral offense precedes any tangible adverse effects of using the resource. In the autism example, there is no preceding offense that results in the perception of "uncleanness". Of course, you can also destroy Maelon's data because you don't want the genophage cured, but I don't recall anyone who said they did it for that reason. I guess pragmatists mostly want to keep their options open.
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wright1978
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Post by wright1978 on Sept 24, 2016 7:35:18 GMT
Uncleanness of the data or resource never came into my decision making process.
The collector base i would say that i would be tempted to keep it given i generally feel i'm techno progressive. However my experience was spending the entire game getting to know TIM and coming away feeling there's no way i could trust him to use it safely or reasonably.
I kept the genophage cure data not so much out of moral reasoning but from a very pragmatic stance. This research shouldn't be wasted despite the ethical issues with its accumulation because there may very well come a time where we will need to cure the genophage.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 24, 2016 7:57:36 GMT
Why is this an issue? Information is information no matter how it was created. Maelon's data might have been based on brutal experiments but you ended them. Throwing away the data is stupid. Collector Base how ever is another story. That kind of technology being allowed into the hands of TIM doesn't make any sense or have any logic short of a Shepard being a Human Supremacist like TIM. Shared among the races of the galaxy yes. Shared with a single group that has very questionable motives and questionable ethics. Not so much. Personally, I agree with you that destroying information because of how it was created is stupid, but many people recognize that "spiritual taint" I spoke of in my answer to straycat as morally relevant, and if you follow the paragon dialogue at the CB, that - and not possible bad effects of giving the CB to TIM - is exactly what the decision is intended to be about if you take the full paragon path (as opposed to following the neutral path and then destroying the base, IIRC). You and I may not recognize that as relevant, but studies appear to indicate that people not from western cultures, and many conservatives, tend to do so. People like you and me are an exception, worldwide, even though we may be the majority among players of Bioware games. Why is that so? I think it's because a descriptive account of human morality would show us that it is about more than promoting fairness and avoidance of harm in a society of autonomous individuals. It's about creating and sustaining functional communities. Naturally, that function loses importance as a society gets more individualistic, but it has, so far, never become irrelevant. Oh yes you can. The autism/vaccination research scandal... The scientific validity of the data is never the issue in these decisions. If it were, there would be a decision to keep the data for further testing. For instance, all we have in Maelon's case is "keep it in case we need it". The decision to to destroy it (on the full paragon path in case of the CB) is about the moral validity of the resource itself. Both in the case of Maelon's data and the CB, the relevant moral offense precedes any tangible adverse effects of using the resource. In the autism example, there is no preceding offense that results in the perception of "uncleanness". Of course, you can also destroy Maelon's data because you don't want the genophage cured, but I don't recall anyone who said they did it for that reason. I guess pragmatists mostly want to keep their options open. As I mentioned on the other thread... those scientist who intentionally hurt their experimental subjects, more often than not, have an agenda behind their research. Their agenda can bias the research (did in the case of the Nazis) and it's that bias that makes the research potentially unreliable. An ethical scientist picking up the research would not just use it. They would have to replicate experimental results using ethical methods before they could trust the data. The mistreatment of animals and humans is now described as being an unethical part of science... and these ethics have been in the state of refinement over the centuries with the goal of making scientific data more and more reliable so that it can be more reliably shared among scientists in order to allow research to progress without "damage" to the populations it serves. courses.washington.edu/bethics/Homepage/What%20is%20Ethics%20in%20Research%20%26%20Why%20is%20it%20Important_.pdfThe game does "assume" the data Maelon generated were "good" but you're trying to "put off" all decisions to destroy the data as being due to some sort of "spiritual" prejudice. I'm saying it is possible for individual players to interpret this scenario to involve 1) a mistrust of Maelon, making the reliability of the data suspect 2) a mistrust of Mordin, leading to a suspicious that he might misuse the data; and 3) as well as a visceral reaction (since Shepard is not a scientist) to how the data were generated. Note that I've included your interpretation as to why some Shepard's might destroy the data in this list. People are entitled to characterize their Shepard differently than others... the unscientific soldier reacting only with his gut or his "religion" are valid ways for people to interpret their own Shepard's state of mind from time to time. If the game did not offer this sort of "flexibility" it would diminish player agency. However, I wouldn't call the individuals who do decide to characterize their Shepard's in this way "stupid." You made an assumption in paragraph 2 of your OP that I object to that assumption. Heck, you even try to put a cultural spin on it. I personally experience no discomfort in preserving Maelon's data even though I do consider it to be possibly unreliable because of the methods Maelon resorted to in order to generate it. I don't trust Maelon to have not gone to the further steps of falsifying it, say, in order to show Weryloc Guld that he was making better progress than he may have been because of well represented Krogan impatience. I'm trusting Mordin to handle the data appropriately and to "verify" the data appropriately if it becomes necessary. I'm disappointed when ME3 gives little indication of Mordin doing this replicative work ethically and would have liked to see a scenario where the genophage cure fails because he rashly accepted the data at face value rather than verifying it correctly before using it.
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Post by thepiebaker on Sept 24, 2016 9:07:12 GMT
My outlook
People died to make that tech/get that research. Make their death meaningful by using that resource. If you destroy it they died for nothing.
And what better revenge than to use the philosopher stone made from the souls of a sacrificed civilization to obliterate the abomination that made it?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 24, 2016 9:36:40 GMT
My outlook People died to make that tech/get that research. Make their death meaningful by using that resource. If you destroy it they died for nothing. And what better revenge than to use the philosopher stone made from the souls of a sacrificed civilization to obliterate the abomination that made it? In a way, this whole line of thought could be extended to the Reapers themselves. They are all a "collection" of data from innumerable past civilizations. Why not control and "use that data" to the benefit of the current cycle rather than outright destroy it?
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