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Post by river82 on Sept 11, 2017 6:44:50 GMT
...nothing would have helped peoples ridiculous expectations. The only fix for ME:A I could have seen was an extra 6 months of development time. And what ridiculous expectations were those? Competence. Obviously it's the fanbase's fault for expecting a game competently designed. We should have expected incompetence instead, then the product would have matched our expectations.
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Post by KaiserShep on Sept 11, 2017 6:46:41 GMT
Rogue One as a title works because it's set apart from an ongoing saga, but there is no ongoing saga in the Milky Way. But really, it doesn't matter. The universe is the same, even if the setting isn't. The only people who would really have their perceptions changed simply because of the arrangement of the words in the title might be a tad daft.
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Post by cribbian on Sept 11, 2017 7:16:35 GMT
Faces would have been just as tired, so no.
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Post by hulluliini on Sept 11, 2017 7:16:50 GMT
It wouldn't change the fact that the mouse cursor snaps to the center of the screen in nearly every cutscene and breaks immersion and I have to ctrl-alt-del and reload a save several times before I get a cutscene that doesn't have that f****ing cursor in the middle. And this will _never_ be fixed because they pulled support already. So, no.
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Post by zanephiri on Sept 11, 2017 9:38:52 GMT
Keeping the Mass Effect name in the title, no matter how it was used, would still immediately invite comparison with the OT. Which they knew it would. They were using the name to sell the game after all. (Which is also why the 'don't compare it to the trilogy!' arguments annoyed me so much, Bioware doesn't get to use the Mass Effect name to sell the game and then be shielded from unfavourable comparisons.)
But even if they got rid of the Mass Effect name and this was a new IP from Bioware, it would still have to live up to the quality we expect from them. Not just in the Mass Effect franchise, but any other games from them we might have played before. (Not that making this a new IP would have made sense, because it borrows too much from the OT to get away with being called something new.)
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Post by alanc9 on Sept 11, 2017 14:31:12 GMT
It wouldn't change the fact that the mouse cursor snaps to the center of the screen in nearly every cutscene and breaks immersion and I have to ctrl-alt-del and reload a save several times before I get a cutscene that doesn't have that f****ing cursor in the middle. And this will _never_ be fixed because they pulled support already. So, no. I suppose not freaking out over the cursor doesn't work for you. Have you tried not running other programs in the background?
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Post by Iakus on Sept 11, 2017 14:46:43 GMT
Keeping the Mass Effect name in the title, no matter how it was used, would still immediately invite comparison with the OT. Which they knew it would. They were using the name to sell the game after all. (Which is also why the 'don't compare it to the trilogy!' arguments annoyed me so much, Bioware doesn't get to use the Mass Effect name to sell the game and then be shielded from unfavourable comparisons.)But even if they got rid of the Mass Effect name and this was a new IP from Bioware, it would still have to live up to the quality we expect from them. Not just in the Mass Effect franchise, but any other games from them we might have played before. (Not that making this a new IP would have made sense, because it borrows too much from the OT to get away with being called something new.) QFT They should have left "Mass Effect" out of the title entirely.
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Post by abaris on Sept 11, 2017 15:58:34 GMT
QFT They should have left "Mass Effect" out of the title entirely. I don't see how that would have changed anything. Do you really think that people are that superficial that the homed in on the brand and wouldn't have called a mediocre game mediocre if only it had a different label slapped on it's cover? Still the same game going for 60 at release. If they'd charged 35 right from the get go, that might have changed expectations. Might ... I didn't understand that kind of reasoning with DA2 and it doesn't get any more credit by repetition.
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Post by Iakus on Sept 11, 2017 16:01:28 GMT
QFT They should have left "Mass Effect" out of the title entirely. I don't see how that would have changed anything. Do you really think that people are that superficial that the homed in on the brand and wouldn't have called a mediocre game mediocre if only it had a different label slapped on it's cover? Still the same game going for 60 at release. If they'd charged 35 right from the get go, that might have changed expectations. Might ... I didn't understand that kind of reasoning with DA2 and it doesn't get any more credit by repetition. Sure it wouldn't have changed the overall technical quality of the game. But with a new setting, new lore could be established, and the ridiculous folding, spindling, and mutilating of ME's lore could have been avoided. Similarly, people are more forgiving of first installments of a series, than sequels with baggage to carry over.
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Post by kino on Sept 11, 2017 16:08:07 GMT
Doubtful. As much as I love this game it wouldn't have changed the arguments of the detractors.
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Post by abaris on Sept 11, 2017 16:08:34 GMT
Sure it wouldn't have changed the overall technical quality of the game. But with a new setting, new lore could be established, and the ridiculous folding, spindling, and mutilating of ME's lore could have been avoided. Similarly, people are more forgiving of first installments of a series, than sequels with baggage to carry over. Seeing as the whole game is based on MEs races, what would have changed if they called it differently? Seeing as this was sold as a full fletched and full priced AAA+ title, what would have changed? Seeing as the story doesn't get any more exciting, the companions any more engaging and the lead any more interesting, what would have changed? If it was as easy as just calling something by some fancy name to make up for lacking quality, everyone would do it. But that's not a magic wand suddenly lowering expectations for something that goes for 60 over the table. Regardless of label, this was sold as an AAA+ title and it failed to be one.
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Post by Iakus on Sept 11, 2017 16:20:47 GMT
Sure it wouldn't have changed the overall technical quality of the game. But with a new setting, new lore could be established, and the ridiculous folding, spindling, and mutilating of ME's lore could have been avoided. Similarly, people are more forgiving of first installments of a series, than sequels with baggage to carry over. Seeing as the whole game is based on MEs races, what would have changed if they called it differently? Seeing as this was sold as a full fletched and full priced AAA+ title, what would have changed? Seeing as the story doesn't get any more exciting, the companions any more engaging and the lead any more interesting, what would have changed? It would not have been Mass Effect If it was not past of the Mass Effect series, it would not have changed the quality, no. But if it was the first of a new series, then yeah, the expectations would have been lower. There would not have been as many expectations. People probably would have been less p*ssed at the lack of SP support. For the simple reason that there would not have been as much invested into the game.
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Post by abaris on Sept 11, 2017 16:26:04 GMT
If it was not past of the Mass Effect series, it would not have changed the quality, no. But if it was the first of a new series, then yeah, the expectations would have been lower. There would not have been as many expectations. People probably would have been less p*ssed at the lack of SP support. For the simple reason that there would not have been as much invested into the game. Let me put it this way: If I pay for a porterhouse, I expect one and not a burger. Exepectations may have been lower if people had been charged for a burger.
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Post by Iakus on Sept 11, 2017 16:34:27 GMT
If it was not past of the Mass Effect series, it would not have changed the quality, no. But if it was the first of a new series, then yeah, the expectations would have been lower. There would not have been as many expectations. People probably would have been less p*ssed at the lack of SP support. For the simple reason that there would not have been as much invested into the game. Let me put it this way: If I pay for a porterhouse, I expect one and not a burger. Exepectations may have been lower if people had been charged for a burger. Sure, but put it this way. Are you more likely to be outraged if: The restaurant you are at, whom you have had porterhouse steaks before, changes their recipe so it's now crappy. Or You go to that same restaurant, and try something new on the menu, and it turns out to be crappy?
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Post by abaris on Sept 11, 2017 16:54:48 GMT
Sure, but put it this way. Are you more likely to be outraged if: The restaurant you are at, whom you have had porterhouse steaks before, changes their recipe so it's now crappy. Or You go to that same restaurant, and try something new on the menu, and it turns out to be crappy? The level of outrage and expectations depends entirely on what I paid. I never have been a die hard of Mass Effect anyway. But, as I said in my first post, there are certain key features I expect from Bioware. I for one would have been less annoyed if I hadn't been charged a 60. A 35 would have seen me in a more generous mood.
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Post by cypherj on Sept 11, 2017 17:18:50 GMT
A better question would be if Bioware hadn't made this game.
People come to expect certain things from Bioware games. Bioware has never really been great a level design, people play the games for story, characters, role-playing. Some people liked these things in ME:A, and some people didn't. This could have been a new IP, but i doubt people who didn't like Ryder, the crew, or the story would liked them under a different name. So if a Bioware game doesn't have those things, you're definitely not playing it for the open world, setting, or things like that.
It's like Bethesda, people expect an immersive, interactive world, with the ability to just be part of it and mod it. So if the next elder scrolls game lacked in this department, and say they didn't release a creation kit or modding tools there would be outrage on the level you saw for ME:A, probably worse. Because if their games don't have that, you're not playing them for the story. People expect different things from different studios.
But we need to stop this whole, it's the players fault stuff. They gave the game to a inexperienced team, poorly managed its production and ultimately released a unfinished product, that's the long and short of it.
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Post by nvanfleet on Sept 11, 2017 17:25:28 GMT
We used to see this argument about DA2. Supposedly, if it had been called "Dragon Age: Rise to Power" or some such it would have gone over better. I dunno. I'm usually willing to give the benefit of the doubt to any theory which has "gamers are idiots" as a premise, but the mechanism here seems highly speculative. Yeah I have seen a lot of people say that about DA 2 Surprisingly, I only played the game once a long time ago, but it seems like everyone also felt like that game should have been a side story or spin off I just made this same point in the 'Not Dead' thread - I think in terms of narrative scale in comparison to their predecessors, DA2 and ME:A suffer due to the sheer difference in scope of the story. Andromeda *could* have felt 'bigger', but they took a lot of the things that would have made things more epic completely out of the player's hands. In defense of DA2, they rushed that baby out the gate in what - about a year? - whereas ME:A took 5 years. It's not really an excuse.
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Post by abaris on Sept 11, 2017 17:28:54 GMT
A better question would be if Bioware hadn't made this game. Yeah, what if. Chances are I wouldn't have bought it. At least not for a 60. You see, if you expect people to pay top notch, you better deliver. Company or brand are entirely secondary in this calculation.
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Post by cypherj on Sept 11, 2017 17:53:56 GMT
A better question would be if Bioware hadn't made this game. Yeah, what if. Chances are I wouldn't have bought it. At least not for a 60. You see, if you expect people to pay top notch, you better deliver. Company or brand are entirely secondary in this calculation. Oh, I completely agree. That's why when people say stuff like if you take it for what it is, it's fine, I don't understand? Or like when DA:2 came out and people said for a game that only had 18 months development I think it's pretty good. I've never been one to handicap. It's either worth $60 or it's not, I use the same standards if the game had 10 years of development time or two.
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Post by KaiserShep on Sept 11, 2017 18:49:03 GMT
I don't see how that would have changed anything. Do you really think that people are that superficial that the homed in on the brand and wouldn't have called a mediocre game mediocre if only it had a different label slapped on it's cover? Still the same game going for 60 at release. If they'd charged 35 right from the get go, that might have changed expectations. Might ... I didn't understand that kind of reasoning with DA2 and it doesn't get any more credit by repetition. Sure it wouldn't have changed the overall technical quality of the game. But with a new setting, new lore could be established, and the ridiculous folding, spindling, and mutilating of ME's lore could have been avoided. Similarly, people are more forgiving of first installments of a series, than sequels with baggage to carry over. This would be a rewrite from the ground up in an entirely new universe with totally new everything, not a mere title change.
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Post by Iakus on Sept 11, 2017 19:21:50 GMT
Sure it wouldn't have changed the overall technical quality of the game. But with a new setting, new lore could be established, and the ridiculous folding, spindling, and mutilating of ME's lore could have been avoided. Similarly, people are more forgiving of first installments of a series, than sequels with baggage to carry over. This would be a rewrite from the ground up in an entirely new universe with totally new everything, not a mere title change. Eh, not really. Change the Rubber Forehead aliens into different Rubber Forehead aliens, alter some dialogue and terminology...
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Post by alanc9 on Sept 11, 2017 19:47:03 GMT
Yeah, what if. Chances are I wouldn't have bought it. At least not for a 60. You see, if you expect people to pay top notch, you better deliver. Company or brand are entirely secondary in this calculation. Oh, I completely agree. That's why when people say stuff like if you take it for what it is, it's fine, I don't understand? Or like when DA:2 came out and people said for a game that only had 18 months development I think it's pretty good. I've never been one to handicap. It's either worth $60 or it's not, I use the same standards if the game had 10 years of development time or two. Is the cash actually the right way to look at this? The difference between $60 or, say, $40 is pretty trivial. Games are so cheap relative to any other entertainment option except television that it's not really worthwhile to think too much about such things, even before we get into dollars per gameplay hour and so forth. DA2 looks good to me because the limiting factor for me isn't the cash to buy the games, it's how many releases exist which I actually want to buy. I liked DA2 and DAI both pretty much, and so I'd be better off if Bio made more DA2-scale products rather than fewer DAI-scale products. YMMV, of course. Of course, I'd be even better off with more DA2s that also cost $40 rather than $60, but that price point would likely cause an adverse-signalling problem and make sales worse, not better.
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Post by KaiserShep on Sept 11, 2017 19:55:07 GMT
This would be a rewrite from the ground up in an entirely new universe with totally new everything, not a mere title change. Eh, not really. Change the Rubber Forehead aliens into different Rubber Forehead aliens, alter some dialogue and terminology... But if we're talking about different lore and detaching from the MEU entirely, they could just go full on Firefly or BSG, as in forget aliens and the Andromeda galaxy and just keep the general space travel and combat stuff (aliens are overrated anyway ). A big part of this setting is getting away from ME3's story beats anyway, so why not go all the way?
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Post by zanephiri on Sept 12, 2017 1:11:08 GMT
Actually, the whole idea of marketing it as a 'mass effect story' *might* have worked, if they'd also kept the game smaller, not hinge the future of ME on it? If they'd marketed this product as a fun light hearted smaller one off space adventure, and then released it on N7 day to celebrate Mass Effect, maybe people would have taken to it. If it had been marketed as a small one off celebration experience and not a full ME title?
Once Bioware released they'd waisted 3 years (not saying it was intentional btw), they could have focused on just salvaging the best parts of what they had - rather than rush and try to create a full game. Keep the scope much smaller for this 'celebration experience' of course, maybe just focus on one planet and fill it with content. I'd also give it a different story, one smaller in scope as well and more fitting to the tone, maybe just about the discovery of a new Milky Way species (they could have still used the Angara, they wouldn't look out of place).
This could have salvaged some of the money/ resources lost and maybe even rebuilt some trust lost after me3 (and not eroded it even more), while Bioware worked on the next full release title?
Not that any of this would ever have happened... I can't see something like this bringing in as much money as me:a probably did. AND of course this would not have been able to be coupled to a mp, so that would have meant an even smaller profit.
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Post by rahavan on Sept 12, 2017 1:33:14 GMT
...nothing would have helped peoples ridiculous expectations. The only fix for ME:A I could have seen was an extra 6 months of development time. And what ridiculous expectations were those? A coherent story, companions I didn't want to put in an airlock, a viable protagonist etc, etc? It failed as a game and failed catastrophically as a continuation of the Mass Effect franchise. The only way this would have been well received is if it had been a first effort by a new studio, which I suppose it was considering the devs' experience. They had a much loved trilogy to use as a road map and apparently only took inspiration from the Citadel dlc. As a game ME:A did fine. People are seriously over playing how "bad" this game is. 7 or 8 out of ten certainly isn't bad. At worst you can say its average or underwhelming. Is the story not good? yes most assuredly. That doesnt make a game as a whole terrible. Games have many parts and people shit the bed when then dont get a good story and ignore the entire experience along the way. Want an example? ME3 when that ending debacle happened so many people ignored the wonderful gameplay they experienced because of a botched ending. To put it bluntly I feel the rpg community's expectations are very out of proportion as are game scores. When a game that receives a 7 out of 10 is called bad there's something wrong. When you throw an entire game out the window because it's story is sub-par you do the devs, yourself and the game an injustice. And on a slightly different note I loved the companions (save Liam who was not my tea).
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