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Post by Sifr on Oct 31, 2017 0:43:46 GMT
Same Sifr, I think many of the better scripts from TNG came from the ideas submitted from various sources, and it was one way in which they increased longevity in the show. When the practice was cut around Season 7, you could tell the normal writing staff was running out of steam. Personally, I think a lot of fan works are quite good, even more so than what many professional writers could come up with. Not every fan-writer is a superfan of course, but fans tend to be the ones most devoted to something, enough so that they'll account for the canon almost perfectly while also being a nigh boundless source of ideas and passion. Man, now that I think about it, I wish more shows were written by fans.Tagging my thoughts for length; For all the flack Moffatt gets from the Doctor Who fandom these days, the main reason everyone was so jazzed when they announced him as headwriter for S5 was because from the episodes he'd written up until then it was obvious he was a passionate fan.
He'd even proposed the theory that the Doctor didn't reveal his name because it has a "terrible secret" behind it, way back in the mid-90's on an early forum. And the affectionate parody "The Curse of the Fatal Death" he wrote for Comic Relief in '99 even had him mess around with the nature of time, causality and some jokes he'd later recycle (like why would Daleks even have chairs lying around?)
Granted, you can tell he ran dry of ideas by the end of his run with Eleventh and didn't really know what to do with the Twelfth Doctor at all. Then there was Clara, who was not so much a character as a plot-device (with a lacklustre payoff) in S7, then overstayed her welcome throughout S8 and 9 despite several solid (false) exits, because even killing her off couldn't make Moff let go of his creator's pet.
Shows can be great when written by the fans, but sometimes it can lead to them running the asylum. Especially when they fail to realise that the rest of the fandom might not enjoy the same things about the show that they do. Then again, creators aren't exactly exempt from this too and it can lead to "Death of the Author".
For all he's lauded as the creator of the franchise... Roddenberry's ideas of what Star Trek should be kinda sucked and were largely out of step with what fans actually liked about Trek in the first place. If S1 and 2 of TNG was meant to be "his" idea of what Star Trek was, he imagined a group of smug, self-satisfied Yuppies running around space, who's main strategy consisted of surrendering, acquiescing or needlessly capitulating to any alien life they come across.
Then there was the infamous "Roddenberry box" that strangled the life out of the writing staff. He demanded zero interpersonal conflict could occur between the main characters, because everyone was meant to get along in the future. A nice sentiment, but that takes what can make good drama and beams it into space... especially when you recall that interpersonal conflicts and (friendly) rivalries made for great character drama in TOS.
And we all know George Lucas had the same thing occur when he made the Star Wars prequels. Some of the hate and criticism was overblown, but I think it stemmed largely from frustration fans felt that George didn't understand what they liked about Star Wars and that he seemed to consider "his vision" more important. This lead him to make changes that many fans didn't like or felt were unnecessary, that he was taking something they loved and trying to fix what wasn't broken.
Sometimes fans or creators burn out if they work on something to long. Nothing wrong with that, it happens to everyone. But it sucks when they don't realise it or refuse to let others come in to provide fresh ideas and perspectives. That's why sometimes Voyager and Enterprise feels like TNG-storytelling, because the old guard under Berman didn't seem to realise telly had moved on and evolved since 1987.
TL;DR,
Having fans and creative people come on to write shows is good. Having them stay on those shows to long or after they've ran out of ideas, tends to be bad. Apologies for going off on a bit of a tangent there. New Question: What are some of the ideas for a prospective new Star Trek show? Where would it be, what would it do, etc. What aspects would you want to focus on, themes, ideas, etc. Would it have connections to prior series (more than just the tangential ties that link all the shows together?) Would it bring back past characters for a few parts? A series, a special, a movie? Would you reference events from STO or the books, or would it be something totally separate? Would it be Prime Timeline, or a new timeline? Hmm... what about a long-term deep space mission in the early part of the 25th Century, who's goal is to make contact with a recently-discovered, but still relatively-unknown, alliance of species who exist far on the outskirts of the Beta Quadrant? The first seasons arc would involve the ship attempting to gain trust with members of the alliance to establish diplomatic channels and be allowed to venture further into their space, a task made more difficult because past conflicts with Klingons and Romulans have made them wary of outsiders from our part of the galaxy. The aftermath of the destruction of Romulus would be recurring subplot. Following the annexation of most of their former territory by the Klingons, many Romulan refugees/colonists have embarked into this region of space, some hoping to rebuild their civilisation, some wanting to start over free from the oppressive, authoritarian regimes of the past, while others simply don't want to be around in case the Klingons make another land grab. Would also have the show deal with the problems that can result from the Federation's principles, particularly holding their non-interference policy to the fire. What if their (dogmatic) adherence to the Prime Directive and refusal to save a pre-Warp species from being wiped out earns them scorn from other races in the Alliance? What if some detractors launch a smear campaign against the crew for their inaction? Or even attempt to put the crew on trial, arguing that by letting a race die out from their inaction, that makes them as culpable of genocide as if they had wiped out the species themselves? (As you can guess, I'm not a fan of the PD and feel that it's used far too often to justify morally bankrupt decisions in the franchise) Would also throw in some continuity nods and callbacks. The Borg presence in the Beta Quadrant, the other end of the "Harry Kim wormhole", the ice planet from "Timeless", the fate of the Hera and Geordi's mother, discovering another one of infant Changelings sent out with Odo etc.
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Post by Sifr on Oct 31, 2017 1:21:23 GMT
As many have said, Episode 7 really felt like the most "Trek" episode of the show thus far. I really enjoyed the premise, the way the characters interacted and worked through the problem, Stamets' various roles as matchmaker, character developer, Big Damn Hero and all-around MVP of the episode, along with some of the clever use of montages. Also liked the line from Lorca about not wanting to lose the crew of the Discovery in the same way he lost the Buran. I suppose he could have been using this to better sell the plan, but it felt like a rather genuine admission. He already implied in a previous episode that the "real" reason he refuses to get his eyes fixed is because the pain is his "hair shirt" to remind him of what he did. However one thing that I didn't like about the episode was; That Harry Mudd got off a little too easy for a man technically guilty of having committed mass-murder 50+ times, as guilty of treason with his intention to sell the Discovery and crew to the Klingons.
Also that Harry Mudd in general seems far too villainous.
Don't get me wrong, he definitely showed himself to be a con-man, trickster and scoundrel in TOS. Attempting to exchange the entire Enterprise crew for his own freedom in "I, Mudd" was definitely not the act of an upstanding bloke. But still, the original Mudd was always portrayed more-so as an opportunist, someone who'd sell his own mother if it benefited him, not because he was actively malevolent.
This Mudd clearly enjoys murdering Lorca countless times as revenge for leaving him to rot in a Klingon prison. And while I can't blame him for being hugely pissed off (so would I in that circumstance), it seems out of character for him to be that vicious in his revenge.
Maybe even Mudd dropping a line about how the Klingons punished him for the others escape and that he only narrowly escaped before they paid back all the pain he passed onto Ash with interest. That's why he would chose to vindictively melt him with a Dark Matter weapon.
Or maybe have a line from Stamets explaining that Mudd (and his) increasingly erratic actions are a side-effect of the loops. That even though their bodies are reset with each new loop, they somehow still retain the fatigue from being awake for almost 28 hours straight (assuming it ended with Loop 55). Aside from that, it was a solid episode.
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Post by phoray on Oct 31, 2017 4:26:06 GMT
Wtf
They not only let Mudd live they let him go FREE??!
Plot armor! They want to use his character again. Lame. Should at least imprisoned him and then took him out on loaners for a reduced sentence
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Post by The Hype Himself on Oct 31, 2017 17:25:02 GMT
Wtf They not only let Mudd live they let him go FREE??! Plot armor! They want to use his character again. Lame. Should at least imprisoned him and then took him out on loaners for a reduced sentence Someone's never watched The Original Series... Spoilers removed for obvious reasons.
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Post by The Hype Himself on Oct 31, 2017 18:01:52 GMT
Same Sifr, I think many of the better scripts from TNG came from the ideas submitted from various sources, and it was one way in which they increased longevity in the show. When the practice was cut around Season 7, you could tell the normal writing staff was running out of steam. Personally, I think a lot of fan works are quite good, even more so than what many professional writers could come up with. Not every fan-writer is a superfan of course, but fans tend to be the ones most devoted to something, enough so that they'll account for the canon almost perfectly while also being a nigh boundless source of ideas and passion. Man, now that I think about it, I wish more shows were written by fans.Tagging my thoughts for length; For all the flack Moffatt gets from the Doctor Who fandom these days, the main reason everyone was so jazzed when they announced him as headwriter for S5 was because from the episodes he'd written up until then it was obvious he was a passionate fan.
He'd even proposed the theory that the Doctor didn't reveal his name because it has a "terrible secret" behind it, way back in the mid-90's on an early forum. And the affectionate parody "The Curse of the Fatal Death" he wrote for Comic Relief in '99 even had him mess around with the nature of time, causality and some jokes he'd later recycle (like why would Daleks even have chairs lying around?)
Granted, you can tell he ran dry of ideas by the end of his run with Eleventh and didn't really know what to do with the Twelfth Doctor at all. Then there was Clara, who was not so much a character as a plot-device (with a lacklustre payoff) in S7, then overstayed her welcome throughout S8 and 9 despite several solid (false) exits, because even killing her off couldn't make Moff let go of his creator's pet.
Shows can be great when written by the fans, but sometimes it can lead to them running the asylum. Especially when they fail to realise that the rest of the fandom might not enjoy the same things about the show that they do. Then again, creators aren't exactly exempt from this too and it can lead to "Death of the Author".
For all he's lauded as the creator of the franchise... Roddenberry's ideas of what Star Trek should be kinda sucked and were largely out of step with what fans actually liked about Trek in the first place. If S1 and 2 of TNG was meant to be "his" idea of what Star Trek was, he imagined a group of smug, self-satisfied Yuppies running around space, who's main strategy consisted of surrendering, acquiescing or needlessly capitulating to any alien life they come across.
Then there was the infamous "Roddenberry box" that strangled the life out of the writing staff. He demanded zero interpersonal conflict could occur between the main characters, because everyone was meant to get along in the future. A nice sentiment, but that takes what can make good drama and beams it into space... especially when you recall that interpersonal conflicts and (friendly) rivalries made for great character drama in TOS.
And we all know George Lucas had the same thing occur when he made the Star Wars prequels. Some of the hate and criticism was overblown, but I think it stemmed largely from frustration fans felt that George didn't understand what they liked about Star Wars and that he seemed to consider "his vision" more important. This lead him to make changes that many fans didn't like or felt were unnecessary, that he was taking something they loved and trying to fix what wasn't broken.
Sometimes fans or creators burn out if they work on something to long. Nothing wrong with that, it happens to everyone. But it sucks when they don't realise it or refuse to let others come in to provide fresh ideas and perspectives. That's why sometimes Voyager and Enterprise feels like TNG-storytelling, because the old guard under Berman didn't seem to realise telly had moved on and evolved since 1987.
TL;DR,
Having fans and creative people come on to write shows is good. Having them stay on those shows to long or after they've ran out of ideas, tends to be bad. Apologies for going off on a bit of a tangent there. New Question: What are some of the ideas for a prospective new Star Trek show? Where would it be, what would it do, etc. What aspects would you want to focus on, themes, ideas, etc. Would it have connections to prior series (more than just the tangential ties that link all the shows together?) Would it bring back past characters for a few parts? A series, a special, a movie? Would you reference events from STO or the books, or would it be something totally separate? Would it be Prime Timeline, or a new timeline? Hmm... what about a long-term deep space mission in the early part of the 25th Century, who's goal is to make contact with a recently-discovered, but still relatively-unknown, alliance of species who exist far on the outskirts of the Beta Quadrant? The first seasons arc would involve the ship attempting to gain trust with members of the alliance to establish diplomatic channels and be allowed to venture further into their space, a task made more difficult because past conflicts with Klingons and Romulans have made them wary of outsiders from our part of the galaxy. The aftermath of the destruction of Romulus would be recurring subplot. Following the annexation of most of their former territory by the Klingons, many Romulan refugees/colonists have embarked into this region of space, some hoping to rebuild their civilisation, some wanting to start over free from the oppressive, authoritarian regimes of the past, while others simply don't want to be around in case the Klingons make another land grab. Would also have the show deal with the problems that can result from the Federation's principles, particularly holding their non-interference policy to the fire. What if their (dogmatic) adherence to the Prime Directive and refusal to save a pre-Warp species from being wiped out earns them scorn from other races in the Alliance? What if some detractors launch a smear campaign against the crew for their inaction? Or even attempt to put the crew on trial, arguing that by letting a race die out from their inaction, that makes them as culpable of genocide as if they had wiped out the species themselves? (As you can guess, I'm not a fan of the PD and feel that it's used far too often to justify morally bankrupt decisions in the franchise) Would also throw in some continuity nods and callbacks. The Borg presence in the Beta Quadrant, the other end of the "Harry Kim wormhole", the ice planet from "Timeless", the fate of the Hera and Geordi's mother, discovering another one of infant Changelings sent out with Odo etc. Well that's a decent idea, to say the least, so far as the Beta Quadrant goes. The BQ is an area often left out of discussions since it's been proportionately 'well-mapped' (compared to the GQ and DQ at least,) but also exists largely outside the purview of the Federation (after all, the BQ is the Klingons' playground, even though they're considered an AQ power.) Sources on the BQ are harder to come by - it's often omitted from a lot of the plots, and it's hard to find non-apocryphal sources detailing the extent of BQ exploration/expansion. One thing I would like to keep/implement from Star Trek Online over your idea for the Romulans is the Romulan civil war, the breakaway factions of Taris and Empress Sela that try to reignite the Romulan Star Empire, the Tal Shiar doing what they always do, and the rise of the Romulan Republic on New Romulus. Personally, I'm actually a huge proponent for the Prime Directive, and I think the crew adhering to it, even in the case of genocide, is the right thing to do. Is it truly our place to get involved with another groups internal affairs and be seen as a potential meddler? What if by acting, we end up alienating ourselves just as much as non-action by inserting ourselves into the context of another civilizations problems? Also, your example leaves a lot of room for wiggle-room - the Prime Directive doesn't really apply to the extent of sitting by and watching as an asteroid slams into a pre-warp species' homeworld. At it's core, the Prime Directive is non-interference in the affairs of other species, not the rejection of all action and contact with them. Within reasonable limits, the crew would be perfectly justified in redirecting or destroying said asteroid. Also, the PD is not necessarily a policy of non-communication - simply that you aren't going to share advanced technology or information with a pre-warp species that is sufficiently advanced to comprehend your nature as aliens, and that you aren't going to involve yourselves in any internal disputes for outside civilizations (unless specifically invited to do so in a diplomatic matter, i.e. mediating diplomatic talks, hosting a neutral meeting ground, holding a neutral conference, etc.) While I admit the PD can be limiting in some aspects, if applied correctly, it's really the way to go in just about every situation. As I've oft-stated at this point, I think some of the other big things for me are the inclusion of some story aspects from non-canon sources like the novels and STO - one idea is the fracturing of the Great Link: what happened in the books is that the Great Link (the Changelings) have spent a great amount of time searching for their mythological creator being, the 'Progenitor' changeling that created them, in the hopes of it returning to the link and rejuvenating the number of changelings (Changelings technically can't reproduce, and the loss/death of a changeling is a permanent reduction in their numbers.) They find it, but unfortunately, it had been long since killed by the radiation from a supernova. This causes the Great Link to fall apart in despair, with all the changelings separating and going their separate ways into the stars until only Odo is left. Now, Odo had been able to convince the GL and greater Dominion to have a less... colonial approach to non-Dominion species, but his views, while taken into account were also somewhat marginalized. With the GL dissolved, Odo is the sole founder left in the Dominions (which is more or less unaffected, given that the day-to-day affairs and governance were handled by the Vorta and other races.) Odo experiments with the idea of sending Vorta and Jem'Hadar emissaries to the AQ in the hopes of building a bridge between the Dominion and the Federation, while also working to change Vorta and Jem'Hadar culture for the better. Given that, for the time being, he is the only Founder left in the Dominion, he even returns to the Alpha Quadrant for a time. However, he has to contend with Laas and a few changelings returning, all of whom hold the same xenophobic attitudes towards solids that changelings have always had.
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mousestalker
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Post by mousestalker on Nov 1, 2017 0:38:44 GMT
What the current iteration of Star Trek sorely lacks:
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Post by The Hype Himself on Nov 1, 2017 0:58:50 GMT
What the current iteration of Star Trek sorely lacks: I suppose Stamets being with Dr. Culber doesn't count, lol? We'll put it up there with the other great homoerotic stories that never were: Geordi/Data, Garak/Bashir, Paris/Kim, Picard/Q...
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Post by colfoley on Nov 1, 2017 3:16:02 GMT
Wtf
They not only let Mudd live they let him go FREE??!
Plot armor! They want to use his character again. Lame. Should at least imprisoned him and then took him out on loaners for a reduced sentence
well technically they did imprison him.
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Post by phoray on Nov 1, 2017 3:26:32 GMT
Wtf
They not only let Mudd live they let him go FREE??!
Plot armor! They want to use his character again. Lame. Should at least imprisoned him and then took him out on loaners for a reduced sentence
well technically they did imprison him. A loving wife is not a prison.
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Post by colfoley on Nov 1, 2017 3:51:30 GMT
well technically they did imprison him. A loving wife is not a prison. her dad is though. And trust me she doesn't stay 'loving' for long.
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Post by Ruliya on Nov 1, 2017 4:01:00 GMT
well technically they did imprison him. A loving wife is not a prison. When she's a controlling cunt, it is xD She's not loving in any meaning of the word. I know it's trying to tie in to TOS, but i don't believe it can, I hope she's even more of a controlling cunt xD be funnier considering this Mudd is apparently a super genius asshole
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Post by fiannawolf on Nov 1, 2017 4:11:41 GMT
Sisko yelling at everyone is always fun:
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Post by phoray on Nov 1, 2017 4:19:31 GMT
I guess I don't know some hidden story involving the wife. Sounds like a book. I like Star Trek, not enough to read it.
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Post by The Hype Himself on Nov 1, 2017 11:09:44 GMT
I guess I don't know some hidden story involving the wife. Sounds like a book. I like Star Trek, not enough to read it. ... Someone hasn't seen The Original Series.
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Post by The Hype Himself on Nov 1, 2017 11:10:48 GMT
well technically they did imprison him. A loving wife is not a prison. It's much worse in this case.
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mousestalker
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ღ The Untitled
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Post by mousestalker on Nov 1, 2017 11:24:55 GMT
Harcourt Fenton Mudd
No spoilers. There's more of Mr and Mrs Mudd later on in the episode.
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Post by The Hype Himself on Nov 1, 2017 11:43:59 GMT
Harcourt Fenton Mudd No spoilers. There's more of Mr and Mrs Mudd later on in the episode. Man, Roger C. Carmel is just so much better than Rainn Wilson. Wilson does alright, but he's lacks that loveable-rogue aspect that made the otherwise terrible 'Mudd' episodes eminently watchable.
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Post by phoray on Nov 1, 2017 15:01:03 GMT
I guess I don't know some hidden story involving the wife. Sounds like a book. I like Star Trek, not enough to read it. ... Someone hasn't seen The Original Series. You are correct. I quit in disgust when Kirk randomly glared down a female officer for accidentally bumping into him on the bridge.
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Post by Cyonan on Nov 1, 2017 15:47:35 GMT
... Someone hasn't seen The Original Series. You are correct. I quit in disgust when Kirk randomly glared down a female officer for accidentally bumping into him on the bridge. There isn't a whole lot to his exploits in TOS other than continuing his life as a con man, although given that he's a character in the series which takes place 10 years after Discovery I wouldn't expect anything to happen to him that he can't get out of. It's a problem of the show's timeframe whenever they bring in characters as references to the original series. They get plot armour of the highest degree because we know they're alive 10 years down the line. When it comes to Stella she'd be considered his "prison" so to speak because he's a con man that was really only saw her as a mark for a quick profit before going back out there to con more people. The fact that her father is a wealthy arms dealer and the lengths to which he went in the latest Discovery episode suggest that him simply leaving isn't really an option he's allowed to take.
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by The Hype Himself on Nov 1, 2017 19:01:32 GMT
... Someone hasn't seen The Original Series. You are correct. I quit in disgust when Kirk randomly glared down a female officer for accidentally bumping into him on the bridge. Then don't express exasperation with the plot's necessary continuity while expressing willful ignorance of the source material. Also, sexism or no (it was written before the women's movement was in full swing, and, for it's time was completely unheard of in it's positive portrayal of women and minorities), try giving some of the better episodes a chance. They're not going to be TNG-levels of woke, but they're definitely making the first steps towards portraying things the way they should be.
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August 2016
phoray
Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition
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Post by phoray on Nov 1, 2017 19:36:01 GMT
I will be exasperated. bringing in characters from other series is cheap and creates issues. Issues like, "willfully destroying a ship 55 times and then getting off Scot free." There was no need to bring him in at all to make the show enjoyable, they just felt like reusing a character to cash in on some nostalgia.
Well guess what, I can be a trek fan and not watch the disgusting blatant sexism that is Kirk brow beating his subordinates with glares. And this episode didn't cash in on any nostalgia for me, it just annoyed me with the entire lack of common Sense there is in letting a man like Mudd go free. A man who has proven he can get time resetting wrist watches TWICE and is blatantly okay with murdering the same man 55 times, they just send off with a little inner chuckle and a wave. To be supposedly imprisoned by a woman and man who have already proven to be poor prison keepers.
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Proud Sponsor of Swingin' Seamen Charter Fishing: My Live Bait Will Catch Your Fish Every Time!
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August 2016
hawkeyegod
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by The Hype Himself on Nov 1, 2017 20:24:03 GMT
I will be exasperated. bringing in characters from other series is cheap and creates issues. Issues like, "willfully destroying a ship 55 times and then getting off Scot free." There was no need to bring him in at all to make the show enjoyable, they just felt like reusing a character to cash in on some nostalgia. Well guess what, I can be a trek fan and not watch the disgusting blatant sexism that is Kirk brow beating his subordinates with glares. And this episode didn't cash in on any nostalgia for me, it just annoyed me with the entire lack of common Sense there is in letting a man like Mudd go free. A man who has proven he can get time resetting wrist watches TWICE and is blatantly okay with murdering the same man 55 times, they just send off with a little inner chuckle and a wave. To be supposedly imprisoned by a woman and man who have already proven to be poor prison keepers. Technically, Mudd didn't 'do' anything beyond illegally board a Federation starship (which was immediately 'surrendered' to him upon reaching the bridge.) Legally, unless you could detect chroniton radiation (i.e. timey-wimey particles) which the Starfleet of the mid-23rd century most assuredly could not, you had no technical proof of wrongdoing. Plus, everyone that 'died' never actually died with the reset button. It's pretty difficult to create a conviction over time-travel related issues, particularly when there is little detectable evidence beyond one man's recollection and the rest of the crew who take his word for it. And as has been stated, no matter how you want to see it, Mudd facing imprisonment with Stella and her father is much more of a punishment for a man like him than any normal prison. Whether you agree or not is irrelevant. It's the way it is. As for cashing in on nostalgia, I agree, DIS shouldn't rely on that, and it's frustrating for a hardcore fan such as myself to see the state of the franchise that is stuck in the same era, not bothering to push the boundaries or move forward any longer. By your modern standards that have had 50 years to move on from where we were? Yeah, TOS could be shockingly sexist or backwards. But 50 years ago? As I said, it was unheard of in its progressivism and rationalism for a show on television: The show had women, black's, Asian's, and other at-the-time maligned minorities in positions of responsibility, and respected by their white-male peers. You had women in positions of responsibility and authority on a starship, you had blacks as both specially trained physicians and as high-ranking flag officers and brilliant scientists (who had character flaws unrelated to their race.) And the best part? No one made a big deal about it in the setting - as they shouldn't have. It was totally natural. And of course, people still had their differences in culture, and these differences were celebrated: Chekov was a Russian proud of his heritage, but not an evil Commie. Scottie established a proud tradition of Scotsmen gaining a reputation for having technological and engineering prowess. Dr. Martin Luther King greatly respected and admired the show in portraying society the way it should be - where anyone and everyone matters and are equally and fairly worthy of greatness. This is one of those cases where it's really not so wise to place your standards for today onto the past. And it's not apologism either - the progressivism had to start somewhere. And Star Trek pushed it further than most on depicting what would be a better society, even if it was several steps behind where we are now. You can't just hold that positive history starts with just us, right now, with our modern sensibilities. Star Trek was quite fair for its day, and honestly, you probably should remember that it was a show created to address social issues and show a better future. You can thank TOS (among many other factors) for helping make feminism, progressivism, and other socially liberal aspects more acceptable today. For his part, Kirk was indeed a womanizer, and he did occasionally force himself on a woman (of course, she always secretly wanted it.) But he was also quite respectful to his female crewmen, and he explicitly never attempted any kind of relationship with any given the course of his responsibility as their commanding officer. He never boasted about grabbing women by the pussy, for example. I'm not trying justify any negative aspects of the character - I'm just informing you again of the differences in time and changes in perspective as society marches on. This was the 60's, and things don't just spontaneously get woke. Try to keep that in mind.
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colfoley
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August 2016
colfoley
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Post by colfoley on Nov 1, 2017 23:15:18 GMT
I will be exasperated. bringing in characters from other series is cheap and creates issues. Issues like, "willfully destroying a ship 55 times and then getting off Scot free." There was no need to bring him in at all to make the show enjoyable, they just felt like reusing a character to cash in on some nostalgia. Well guess what, I can be a trek fan and not watch the disgusting blatant sexism that is Kirk brow beating his subordinates with glares. And this episode didn't cash in on any nostalgia for me, it just annoyed me with the entire lack of common Sense there is in letting a man like Mudd go free. A man who has proven he can get time resetting wrist watches TWICE and is blatantly okay with murdering the same man 55 times, they just send off with a little inner chuckle and a wave. To be supposedly imprisoned by a woman and man who have already proven to be poor prison keepers. Technically, Mudd didn't 'do' anything beyond illegally board a Federation starship (which was immediately 'surrendered' to him upon reaching the bridge.) Legally, unless you could detect chroniton radiation (i.e. timey-wimey particles) which the Starfleet of the mid-23rd century most assuredly could not, you had no technical proof of wrongdoing. Plus, everyone that 'died' never actually died with the reset button. It's pretty difficult to create a conviction over time-travel related issues, particularly when there is little detectable evidence beyond one man's recollection and the rest of the crew who take his word for it. And as has been stated, no matter how you want to see it, Mudd facing imprisonment with Stella and her father is much more of a punishment for a man like him than any normal prison. Whether you agree or not is irrelevant. It's the way it is. As for cashing in on nostalgia, I agree, DIS shouldn't rely on that, and it's frustrating for a hardcore fan such as myself to see the state of the franchise that is stuck in the same era, not bothering to push the boundaries or move forward any longer. By your modern standards that have had 50 years to move on from where we were? Yeah, TOS could be shockingly sexist or backwards. But 50 years ago? As I said, it was unheard of in its progressivism and rationalism for a show on television: The show had women, black's, Asian's, and other at-the-time maligned minorities in positions of responsibility, and respected by their white-male peers. You had women in positions of responsibility and authority on a starship, you had blacks as both specially trained physicians and as high-ranking flag officers and brilliant scientists (who had character flaws unrelated to their race.) And the best part? No one made a big deal about it in the setting - as they shouldn't have. It was totally natural. And of course, people still had their differences in culture, and these differences were celebrated: Chekov was a Russian proud of his heritage, but not an evil Commie. Scottie established a proud tradition of Scotsmen gaining a reputation for having technological and engineering prowess. Dr. Martin Luther King greatly respected and admired the show in portraying society the way it should be - where anyone and everyone matters and are equally and fairly worthy of greatness. This is one of those cases where it's really not so wise to place your standards for today onto the past. And it's not apologism either - the progressivism had to start somewhere. And Star Trek pushed it further than most on depicting what would be a better society, even if it was several steps behind where we are now. You can't just hold that positive history starts with just us, right now, with our modern sensibilities. Star Trek was quite fair for its day, and honestly, you probably should remember that it was a show created to address social issues and show a better future. You can thank TOS (among many other factors) for helping make feminism, progressivism, and other socially liberal aspects more acceptable today. For his part, Kirk was indeed a womanizer, and he did occasionally force himself on a woman (of course, she always secretly wanted it.) But he was also quite respectful to his female crewmen, and he explicitly never attempted any kind of relationship with any given the course of his responsibility as their commanding officer. He never boasted about grabbing women by the pussy, for example. I'm not trying justify any negative aspects of the character - I'm just informing you again of the differences in time and changes in perspective as society marches on. This was the 60's, and things don't just spontaneously get woke. Try to keep that in mind. aside from that incident where he grabbed Yeoman Rand as they were about to be torpedoed by Romulans in Balance of Terror.
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July 2016
admin
Cyonan
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
Cyonan
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Post by Cyonan on Nov 2, 2017 0:29:44 GMT
Speaking of TOS, I remember hearing the line "Mister Spock, the women on your planet are logical. That's the only planet in this galaxy that can make that claim" and laughing at just how casual they are about it considering just how badly any show today would be bashed for saying something like this.
I agree with Hype that the show was well ahead of its time for civil rights(and that it had to start somewhere), but it's still interesting to see the sort of stuff that even a progressive show did back in the 60s from time to time that today we would consider completely out of line.
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The Hype Himself
Proud Sponsor of Swingin' Seamen Charter Fishing: My Live Bait Will Catch Your Fish Every Time!
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August 2016
hawkeyegod
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by The Hype Himself on Nov 2, 2017 1:11:51 GMT
Technically, Mudd didn't 'do' anything beyond illegally board a Federation starship (which was immediately 'surrendered' to him upon reaching the bridge.) Legally, unless you could detect chroniton radiation (i.e. timey-wimey particles) which the Starfleet of the mid-23rd century most assuredly could not, you had no technical proof of wrongdoing. Plus, everyone that 'died' never actually died with the reset button. It's pretty difficult to create a conviction over time-travel related issues, particularly when there is little detectable evidence beyond one man's recollection and the rest of the crew who take his word for it. And as has been stated, no matter how you want to see it, Mudd facing imprisonment with Stella and her father is much more of a punishment for a man like him than any normal prison. Whether you agree or not is irrelevant. It's the way it is. As for cashing in on nostalgia, I agree, DIS shouldn't rely on that, and it's frustrating for a hardcore fan such as myself to see the state of the franchise that is stuck in the same era, not bothering to push the boundaries or move forward any longer. By your modern standards that have had 50 years to move on from where we were? Yeah, TOS could be shockingly sexist or backwards. But 50 years ago? As I said, it was unheard of in its progressivism and rationalism for a show on television: The show had women, black's, Asian's, and other at-the-time maligned minorities in positions of responsibility, and respected by their white-male peers. You had women in positions of responsibility and authority on a starship, you had blacks as both specially trained physicians and as high-ranking flag officers and brilliant scientists (who had character flaws unrelated to their race.) And the best part? No one made a big deal about it in the setting - as they shouldn't have. It was totally natural. And of course, people still had their differences in culture, and these differences were celebrated: Chekov was a Russian proud of his heritage, but not an evil Commie. Scottie established a proud tradition of Scotsmen gaining a reputation for having technological and engineering prowess. Dr. Martin Luther King greatly respected and admired the show in portraying society the way it should be - where anyone and everyone matters and are equally and fairly worthy of greatness. This is one of those cases where it's really not so wise to place your standards for today onto the past. And it's not apologism either - the progressivism had to start somewhere. And Star Trek pushed it far further than most on depicting what would be a better society, even if it was several steps behind where we are now. You can't just hold that positive history starts with just us, right now, with our modern sensibilities. Star Trek was quite fair for its day, and honestly, you probably should remember that it was a show created to address social issues and show a better future. You can thank TOS (among many other factors) for helping make feminism, progressivism, and other socially liberal aspects more acceptable today. For his part, Kirk was indeed a womanizer, and he did occasionally force himself on a woman (of course, she always secretly wanted it.) But he was also quite respectful to his female crewmen, and he explicitly never attempted any kind of relationship with any given the course of his responsibility as their commanding officer. He never boasted about grabbing women by the pussy, for example. I'm not trying justify any negative aspects of the character - I'm just informing you again of the differences in time and changes in perspective as society marches on. This was the 60's, and things don't just spontaneously get woke. Try to keep that in mind. aside from that incident where he grabbed Yeoman Rand as they were about to be torpedoed by Romulans in Balance of Terror. Fair enough, though I think that a case could be made in that particular circumstance where he was attempting to comfort/protect Yeoman Rand rather than do anything with her. Of course, I never said that I would try to justify any of the negative aspects of the character.
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