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Post by The Hype Himself on Nov 2, 2017 1:19:01 GMT
Speaking of TOS, I remember hearing the line "Mister Spock, the women on your planet are logical. That's the only planet in this galaxy that can make that claim" and laughing at just how casual they are about it considering just how badly any show today would be bashed for saying something like this. I agree with Hype that the show was well ahead of its time for civil rights(and that it had to start somewhere), but it's still interesting to see the sort of stuff that even a progressive show did back in the 60s from time to time that today we would consider completely out of line. Gene Roddenberry himself was an odd enigma of positive/negative traits. On one hand, he fought with producers to have women on his ship at all, made clear that they were socially equivalent peers with males, and even tried his damndest to have a female be first officer. On the other, he was well-known for sexually harassing female cast-members and crew (possibly even being the show higher-up who assaulted/raped Grace Lee Whitney, aka Yeoman Rand.) He wanted Earth culture to have an aspect of harem culture, and later in his increasingly senile and drugged out mind, particularly as TNG got going, he was seen as being obsessed with the concept of sex for all the characters. Also, on the subject of TOS, it was responsible for producing the rather sickeningly anti-feminist episode 'Turnabout Intruder.'
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Post by fiannawolf on Nov 2, 2017 3:37:29 GMT
I really liked the Major's character arcs.
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Post by Sifr on Nov 2, 2017 5:47:28 GMT
Also, on the subject of TOS, it was responsible for producing the rather sickeningly anti-feminist episode 'Turnabout Intruder.' "Turnabout Intruder" works a lot better if you go in under the assumption that Janice Lester is psychologically unstable (which she is) and that was the real reason why she was rejected for command of a starship. Because individuals with delusional/irrational beliefs don't ever really think anything is wrong with them, Janice became convinced that Starfleet rejected her because of her gender and that they don't want female captains. Kirk didn't correct her not because her assertions were true, but having dated her in the past, he's tired of this argument and knows there's no way to convince her otherwise. It's still a terrible episode, but that caveat does fix that contentious "women can't be captains" line and make it fit within context.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Shattered Steel, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Transcended One on Nov 2, 2017 8:32:46 GMT
Speaking of TOS, I remember hearing the line "Mister Spock, the women on your planet are logical. That's the only planet in this galaxy that can make that claim" and laughing at just how casual they are about it considering just how badly any show today would be bashed for saying something like this. I agree with Hype that the show was well ahead of its time for civil rights(and that it had to start somewhere), but it's still interesting to see the sort of stuff that even a progressive show did back in the 60s from time to time that today we would consider completely out of line. Well the handling of women in TOS is completely canon. So yet another thing they got totally wrong in Discovery... Though in defense of TOS, just a little bit: There were strong women in that show, being able to take care of themselves, and even being able to resist Kirk's super masculin looks, like this lovely woman: ![](https://i.pinimg.com/736x/ee/53/99/ee53995b0f940615ebd553568a531650--star-trek-cosplay-star-trek-original.jpg)
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Post by The Hype Himself on Nov 2, 2017 11:09:48 GMT
Speaking of TOS, I remember hearing the line "Mister Spock, the women on your planet are logical. That's the only planet in this galaxy that can make that claim" and laughing at just how casual they are about it considering just how badly any show today would be bashed for saying something like this. I agree with Hype that the show was well ahead of its time for civil rights(and that it had to start somewhere), but it's still interesting to see the sort of stuff that even a progressive show did back in the 60s from time to time that today we would consider completely out of line. Well the handling of women in TOS is completely canon. So yet another thing they got totally wrong in Discovery... Though in defense of TOS, just a little bit: There were strong women in that show, being able to take care of themselves, and even being able to resist Kirk's super masculin looks, like this lovely woman: To be honest, I have absolutely no problem with Discovery leaving out and ignoring any of the sexism from the 60's that bled into TOS. While I did technically defend its existence in the last page, I don't agree with it, and I wouldn't give Discovery the same excuse for lacking the Political Correctness (*uber-right wing blowhards, if you're here, feel free to gasp in terror*) simply because it's set in the same timeline as TOS. Only, and only, if it were to be played for a dramatic narrative purpose and show how said issues became resolved, would I accept that aspect in a modern show. Honestly, Kirk shouldn't be screwing around with any females who are in uniform at his rank. He's a senior command officer in charge of a starship. At his level, basically all of the crew barring maybe the XO would be off-limits.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Shattered Steel, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Transcended One on Nov 2, 2017 11:20:18 GMT
Well the handling of women in TOS is completely canon. So yet another thing they got totally wrong in Discovery... Though in defense of TOS, just a little bit: There were strong women in that show, being able to take care of themselves, and even being able to resist Kirk's super masculin looks, like this lovely woman: To be honest, I have absolutely no problem with Discovery leaving out and ignoring any of the sexism from the 60's that bled into TOS. While I did technically defend its existence in the last page, I don't agree with it, and I wouldn't give Discovery the same excuse for lacking the Political Correctness (*uber-right wing blowhards, if you're here, feel free to gasp in terror*) simply because it's set in the same timeline as TOS. Only, and only, if it were to be played for a dramatic narrative purpose and show how said issues became resolved, would I accept that aspect in a modern show. Honestly, Kirk shouldn't be screwing around with any females who are in uniform at his rank. He's a senior command officer in charge of a starship. At his level, basically all of the crew barring maybe the XO would be off-limits.Funny you should say that, since that was more or less exactly what Burnham said about relationships on the Shenzou for an officer of her rank. But I agree with you. After all, a captain shouldn't get distracted by his/her crew in that way.
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Post by The Hype Himself on Nov 2, 2017 11:38:33 GMT
Also, on the subject of TOS, it was responsible for producing the rather sickeningly anti-feminist episode 'Turnabout Intruder.' "Turnabout Intruder" works a lot better if you go in under the assumption that Janice Lester is psychologically unstable (which she is) and that was the real reason why she was rejected for command of a starship. Because individuals with delusional/irrational beliefs don't ever really think anything is wrong with them, Janice became convinced that Starfleet rejected her because of her gender and that they don't want female captains. Kirk didn't correct her not because her assertions were true, but having dated her in the past, he's tired of this argument and knows there's no way to convince her otherwise. It's still a terrible episode, but that caveat does fix that contentious "women can't be captains" line and make it fit within context. It's a decent assessment, though sadly, Gene admitted that the whole meaning of the line 'women can't be starship captains' was sexist, and the producers went over his head to put it in. Of course, you can set it aside, but there it is. Gene didn't like it much either.
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Post by The Hype Himself on Nov 3, 2017 8:05:27 GMT
What are thoughts on other long-lived minor characters appearing in Discovery? Not just Sarek, but say several famed Klingons, like Kor, Koloth, or Kang (who will be in other series), or T'Pau of Vulcan, one of the former hosts of Dax (given the timeline, it would likely be Emony or Audrid Dax, the 3rd/4th respective hosts), perhaps an appearance by Q, etc.
What species previously depicted (or previously mentioned but never really fleshed out) would you think would be interesting in DIS?
One species in particular that I'd like to see fleshed out a bit are the Saurians, a reptilian humanoid species that are noted as being excellent engineers and explorers, making particularly capable Starfleet officers.
I ask these questions because I have a rather sad predilection for thinking that DIS will abandon many of the elements of fleshing out alien races and doing cultural comparison that leads to the sort of understanding and diplomacy and cooperation that a show like TNG and TOS thrived on (and how VOY should have done more plots around.)
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Post by fchopin on Nov 4, 2017 19:10:43 GMT
Watched a few minutes of the new episode and that is about it from me. I can not take any more of the stupidity of this show so that is enough for me.
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Post by Sifr on Nov 5, 2017 5:15:11 GMT
What are thoughts on other long-lived minor characters appearing in Discovery? Not just Sarek, but say several famed Klingons, like Kor, Koloth, or Kang (who will be in other series), or T'Pau of Vulcan, one of the former hosts of Dax (given the timeline, it would likely be Emony or Audrid Dax, the 3rd/4th respective hosts), perhaps an appearance by Q, etc. What species previously depicted (or previously mentioned but never really fleshed out) would you think would be interesting in DIS? One species in particular that I'd like to see fleshed out a bit are the Saurians, a reptilian humanoid species that are noted as being excellent engineers and explorers, making particularly capable Starfleet officers. I ask these questions because I have a rather sad predilection for thinking that DIS will abandon many of the elements of fleshing out alien races and doing cultural comparison that leads to the sort of understanding and diplomacy and cooperation that a show like TNG and TOS thrived on (and how VOY should have done more plots around.) Wouldn't mind seeing some long-lived and/or minor species getting some more love in DIS. T'Pau would be a good character to have show up again, as we've previously seen her both in TOS and ENT. Actually wouldn't mind seeing T'Pol again either. I know that she's not the most popular character on Enterprise and the fans are a little divided on her, but she was a good character when written well (such as in "Twilight" for example) Now that makeup has improved, there's no reason Andorians and Tellarites can't get more screen-time, since they were part of the Big Four who helped found the Federation. Enterprise was the show that gave them the most exposure (particularly the Andorians), with S4 being largely about how these squabbling races managed to put aside centuries of mistrust and eventually banded together. Also they've said Shran would have become a member of the NX-01 crew if we'd gotten S5 of ENT. The Bolians are another race that's often been relegated to a background species. Has canon ever established when they first made contact with and joined the Federation? What about Betazoids? We've not really gotten much information about Betazed. (Unless we did and I simply missed it because it wasn't a "Good Troi Episode" or I tuned out during Deanna's psychobabble or Lwaxana doing her "Yadda yadda, Fifth House of Pancakes" spiel at somebody.) What about contemporary characters showing up? We know from TOS that something happened to Garth of Izar that lead him to suffer a mental breakdown and terrible injuries, doesn't it make sense to tie that into the Klingon-Federation war in Discovery somehow?
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Post by Sifr on Nov 5, 2017 5:25:35 GMT
Slightly off-topic, but has anyone seen the fantastic Prelude to Axanar fan-film? (Kinda wish this was the TOS-era Federation-Klingon war we'd gotten with Discovery)
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Post by House Targaryen on Nov 5, 2017 7:07:32 GMT
I really liked the Major's character arcs. That was one of the best DS9 episodes.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 6, 2017 15:15:58 GMT
Finally caught up on the latest Discovery Episode, the one with the time-loop. On one hand, I like it that Mudd reappeared, but I don’t like the time-loops and time travel/au in general, and was surprised by the sudden romantic comedy feel of it, plus the acting seemed almost amature particularly with Mudd’s family members and I just did not feel chemistry between Michael and Ash. Not sure what’s up.
I also haven’t watched TOS, so I am treating Mudd as a brand new character.
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Post by Transcended One on Nov 6, 2017 16:44:36 GMT
Finally caught up on the latest Discovery Episode, the one with the time-loop. It's no longer the latest since yesterday... Both of the Mudd episode are pretty much below average. They weren't the worst but certainly not among the best. I didn't see The Animated Series yet, but I believe he made an appearance there too. EDIT: I've just seen episode 8 which, after last week's filler episode people either loved or hated (I'm in the former group), finally continues the plotline concerning the Klingons. It ends on a cliffhanger and I'm curious about next week's mid-season-finale...
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Post by Deleted on Nov 6, 2017 20:44:20 GMT
Finally caught up on the latest Discovery Episode, the one with the time-loop. It's no longer the latest since yesterday... Heh, in my reality, it is! I think it broadcasts on Crave on Monday nights for Canada. Plus, well, life and the careful negotiations that involves the protesting kid who decided that it is not ST enough to watch as a family, and the kitten that chews on cables as well as miscellaneous events....
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Post by colfoley on Nov 6, 2017 21:05:27 GMT
The moment I fell in love with this show: So at least for now I am rating this show as Tier 1. And granted this may change in the future, but I really hope not. As a general thought though I really loved last night's episode. Best episode of the series thus far, and certainly the best since...Episode 3 (I am sorry but the one bad thing about this shows episode names is they are so hard to remember/spell/pronounce.) Anyways though the one bad thing about the episode. I am still kind of confused on what happened to the Admiral? I mean I love the plot twists and unpredictability of the narrative but the danger is I may getting excited about something that may not actually make sense. But as far as the good is concerned. Once again we get a twist on a classic Star Trek concept. Variations on the meaning of peace and how best to achieve it and what that concept means for the character. Hell the above scene in my spoilers is really the theme of the entire episode. The good of the many versus the needs of the few. The whole Klingon war plot went into an entirely different kind of high gear, stakes are continuing to rise, and honestly, the more i think about it the more of a mess it could potentially be but right now I am liking it. And yes, I do think this look at Klingon culture, with the differences and factions and styles is not like anything we've seen in Trek before. Not that I am complaining because we are getting a full spectrum of Klingon we have never seen before. Of course as I have learned from other Sci fi franchises but apparently people like their alien races uncomplicated and monotone. And as always there were some really great character moments in this episode. Mainly before the three on Pahvo. As I mentioned before this episode 'good of the many' was almost thematic to the entire Episode. All the characters wanted the same objective, again which is what this show has been really, really, good at, setting up dark mirrors for each other...characters who want the same ultimate objectives but go about it in very different ways. Saru wants peace, but because of his backgrounds and development up to this point what happened to him on the planet his want for peace was ultimatley self directed, and indeed, self destructive. He wanted peace so badly that he was willing to force it on others (a lot like progressivism 101). Burnham on the other hand, because of her background, was much more focused on peace for the wider Galaxy (though so is the planet, more on that later), but ultimatley the planet could not serve its own purpose, which forced Burnham to act.
Ultimatley even if the ultimate thematic message of the episode seems to contradict Burnham and Tyler's thoughts it still examines these issues in a way Star Trek hasn't quite managed. Instead of dealing with progressive moral accident all of these issues are being examined (and deconstructed) in a logical, thorough, dispassionate way. Saru wasn't exactly wrong and I really felt for him, but then again so was Burnham ultimatley and ultimaley the planet has its own ideas.
Speaking of which Pahvo really reminded me of Zenoma Sekhot from the SWs universe. (Which now that I think about it is the second big connection this show has made with Star Wars, not that I mind of course I actually have always found SWs more philosophically engaging then Trek) But this has some really interesting implications for the future. A sentient planet dedicated to peace. Its a neat concept... As far as next week I am super, super, hyped. With the big battle, Star Trek Discovery has proven time and again that the trailers are almost misleading. But, the next ep looks good.
Will this be the end of the war? Will the planet successfully force peace between the Federation and the Klingons (much like the Organians) or will it be more of a Zenoma situation? Will this be the beginning of a Klingon 'cold war'? Will the Klingons destroy the planet preventing peace? What about the Discovery and its Spore Drive? Will the episode show the Discovery's destructrion or that the Spore Drive is ultimatley untennable because of what is happening with Stamets? Will the Sarcaphogus ship be destroyed preventing the wide spread distribution of the cloaking technology to the rest of the Empire? Thus forcing them to go the Romulans later on in TOS? Its going to be really, really, cool.
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Post by Sifr on Nov 7, 2017 1:55:23 GMT
Finally caught up on the latest Discovery Episode, the one with the time-loop. On one hand, I like it that Mudd reappeared, but I don’t like the time-loops and time travel/au in general, and was surprised by the sudden romantic comedy feel of it, plus the acting seemed almost amature particularly with Mudd’s family members and I just did not feel chemistry between Michael and Ash. Not sure what’s up. I also haven’t watched TOS, so I am treating Mudd as a brand new character. Time travel is a Trek staple though and great when used in fun and inventive ways. TNG did some great episodes messing around with time, DS9 as well, although Voyager tended to lean more towards using it as an excuse to hit the reset button and make most of the previous 40 minutes completely meaningless. Also in-universe, frequent time travel/manipulation can be justified by the resident Time Police really sucking at their jobs. Seriously, maybe they might want to intervene when someone like Harry Mudd gets access to time travel? First Rasmussen in TNG, Henry Starling in VOY and now Mudd in DSC? How many opportunists and con-men are going to steal time machines before the Time Cops get off their backsides and stop them? I guess since money doesn't exist in the future... you really do get what you pay for? Totally get what you mean about Ash and Michael though. Even if it's true in war-time people do hook-up more from constant fear of death and/or needing to blow off some steam, these two seem to be entering a relationship way too fast based on very little interaction (or chemistry) between them. Although if you buy into the Voq is Ash theory, the rushed romance is more believable as part of some ploy or honey-trap.
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Post by colfoley on Nov 7, 2017 5:29:57 GMT
Actually another thing I realized I am loving about Discovery is its relatively small cast. Only really Michael, Ash, Lorca, Voq, Li'rell and Saru are a part of the main cast of characters. Compare that to Walking Dead and Game of Thrones where their huge casts feel like it stifles a lot of the character development for the rest of the cast.
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Post by Ruliya on Nov 7, 2017 5:34:42 GMT
Despite 99.9% of Discovery not matching anything Trek related ever? It's a far lower estimate than that. I have my problems with DIS (and we ought take it to the ST thread,) but you make it sound as if beyond Star Trek being in the title, it's 100% divorced from the rest of the franchise. Via reference, inclusion, and appearance of various things within the franchise to date, it's going to at most be about 70% unlike other shows. We can take it here and I can repeat the comment I made afterwards: "Awww come on, diverting a SW thread to a ST thread is the dream But I do need to sleep, and I'm being a little facetious. So apologies and do continue." Tho I have said in this many times that I cannot believe it can have anything to do with Prime Verse Trek. It could be an alt verse, Maybe Kelvin timeline, as I've stated before. But I just cannot see it being a Prime Verse show. No matter how writers now will try and include it.
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Post by The Hype Himself on Nov 7, 2017 5:40:26 GMT
Well, your belief isn't required. It's a fact of order for the franchise now.
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Post by colfoley on Nov 7, 2017 5:42:51 GMT
I've also come to the conclusion that I personally consider everything pre DS9 (at least as far as the shows) pretty crap and everything after DS9 was pretty solid. Though the movies have been, pretty inconsistent in terms of quality.
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The Hype Himself
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August 2016
hawkeyegod
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by The Hype Himself on Nov 7, 2017 5:44:58 GMT
Actually another thing I realized I am loving about Discovery is its relatively small cast. Only really Michael, Ash, Lorca, Voq, Li'rell and Saru are a part of the main cast of characters. Compare that to Walking Dead and Game of Thrones where their huge casts feel like it stifles a lot of the character development for the rest of the cast. That's something that sets it apart from other Star Trek shows, and not in a good way I think. I was actually thinking that for it to be a 'Star Trek', they ought to expand the 'main cast' by about 2-3 people, particularly bridge crew (although I understand that the writers are trying to move away from the 'bridge/command staff' dynamic.) Also, I don't think I'm a fan of focusing on too many characters separated by huge spaces and circumstances. I don't like the Klingon plots being unconnected with the Federation ones. I mean, I don't hate it, but I think of the Klingon plot along the same lines as say, Weyoun and the Founder - i.e., while important, they're never more than important side-characters.
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colfoley
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colfoley
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Post by colfoley on Nov 7, 2017 5:48:27 GMT
Actually another thing I realized I am loving about Discovery is its relatively small cast. Only really Michael, Ash, Lorca, Voq, Li'rell and Saru are a part of the main cast of characters. Compare that to Walking Dead and Game of Thrones where their huge casts feel like it stifles a lot of the character development for the rest of the cast. That's something that sets it apart from other Star Trek shows, and not in a good way I think. I was actually thinking that for it to be a 'Star Trek', they ought to expand the 'main cast' by about 2-3 people, particularly bridge crew (although I understand that the writers are trying to move away from the 'bridge/command staff' dynamic.) Also, I don't think I'm a fan of focusing on too many characters separated by huge spaces and circumstances. I don't like the Klingon plots being unconnected with the Federation ones. I mean, I don't hate it, but I think of the Klingon plot along the same lines as say, Weyoun and the Founder - i.e., while important, they're never more than important side-characters. I think this is something Enterprise, DS9, and Discovery are doing to great effect. Showing the viewpoint from the other side to develop their characters so we can sympathize with them and get to know them....well more or less at least because I just realized they really didn't try to make the Dominion characters in the Dominion War very sympathetic. Except for Damar but then he became a Pro Federation revolutionary.
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6,168
The Hype Himself
Proud Sponsor of Swingin' Seamen Charter Fishing: My Live Bait Will Catch Your Fish Every Time!
4,023
August 2016
hawkeyegod
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by The Hype Himself on Nov 7, 2017 6:01:29 GMT
That's something that sets it apart from other Star Trek shows, and not in a good way I think. I was actually thinking that for it to be a 'Star Trek', they ought to expand the 'main cast' by about 2-3 people, particularly bridge crew (although I understand that the writers are trying to move away from the 'bridge/command staff' dynamic.) Also, I don't think I'm a fan of focusing on too many characters separated by huge spaces and circumstances. I don't like the Klingon plots being unconnected with the Federation ones. I mean, I don't hate it, but I think of the Klingon plot along the same lines as say, Weyoun and the Founder - i.e., while important, they're never more than important side-characters. I think this is something Enterprise, DS9, and Discovery are doing to great effect. Showing the viewpoint from the other side to develop their characters so we can sympathize with them and get to know them....well more or less at least because I just realized they really didn't try to make the Dominion characters in the Dominion War very sympathetic. Except for Damar but then he became a Pro Federation revolutionary. I never really saw the Cardassians as really being 'Dominion' in culture or spirit: they joined out of the ego of one man (Dukat), and everyone else just lived and reacted with the consequences. Every 'true' Dominion operative force (the Jem'Hadar, the Vorta) were of course nigh-completely unsympathetic, sans a handful of Jem'Hadar officers (i.e., the one who spares Worf, the one who breaks free of his Ketracel White addiction), and there are a handful of said Jem'Hadar who have somewhat of an awareness of their race being trapped due to their addiction set by the Founders (though they're loyal nonetheless.) The Vorta on the other hand are almost entirely unsympathetic, being bred to be that way of course. And the Founders themselves (and any Changeling not named Odo) are simply too xenophobic towards all other species to have any kind of discourse with. You're either a solid to be controlled by them, or you're a Changeling like them. I do wonder how they would have fared against other species, particularly non-corporeal entities.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 7, 2017 12:41:03 GMT
That's something that sets it apart from other Star Trek shows, and not in a good way I think. I was actually thinking that for it to be a 'Star Trek', they ought to expand the 'main cast' by about 2-3 people, particularly bridge crew (although I understand that the writers are trying to move away from the 'bridge/command staff' dynamic.) Also, I don't think I'm a fan of focusing on too many characters separated by huge spaces and circumstances. I don't like the Klingon plots being unconnected with the Federation ones. I mean, I don't hate it, but I think of the Klingon plot along the same lines as say, Weyoun and the Founder - i.e., while important, they're never more than important side-characters. I think this is something Enterprise, DS9, and Discovery are doing to great effect. Showing the viewpoint from the other side to develop their characters so we can sympathize with them and get to know them....well more or less at least because I just realized they really didn't try to make the Dominion characters in the Dominion War very sympathetic. Except for Damar but then he became a Pro Federation revolutionary. I can’t say I perceived the Dominion as unsympathetic. It helps that Odo always have a wistful desire to be with the other changlings. And Cardasians despite their many flaws do have an advocate in Garak, and even Kira sometimes see some of them with fondness, and Dukat is likely one of the most human characters the ST produced imo. I dislike JemHadar as I am not in the warrior tribal cultures, but they are victimized by the dominion. And by some reason Vorta are just not unlikable to me. About the only unsympathetic faction to me in DS9 is the fundamentalist Bajor priests led by Kai Wynne....
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