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Post by Vortex13 on Oct 5, 2017 18:43:17 GMT
I suppose it's never been a part of the series to begin with, but for being the more 'scientific' out of the two sci-fi juggernauts that are Star Wars and Star Trek, I've always been a tad disappointed in the overall lack of appreciable 'alien' elements to the franchise. Obviously show budgets are an issue, but would be interesting to see more aliens like the Tholians rather than yet more variations on space elves, or green-blue space people. Well, there are plenty of non-corporeal gaseous entities. So far as space elves go, it's more along the lines of rubber-forehead aliens that have a humanoid appearance. Eh, rubber foreheads, and pointy ears, are about 99.9998% of the galaxy's population. I mean, I get the in-universe reason for it (Precursors Yo!) but that still doesn't change the fact that it makes nearly every alien civilization we come across completely interchangeable and bland as a result, with the noted exception of a few minorities of course. EDIT: Also, how unimaginative was the precursor race that seeded the Milky Way to only opt for a single body type for everyone? If I came from a civilization that could make sapient life on a whim I would have at least added some diversity to my creations. A silicon based life form for this one, non bipedal movement for this one, etc. |
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Post by The Hype Himself on Oct 5, 2017 18:46:28 GMT
Jadzia isn't that level of sue-ish. Don't put traits on her that she doesn't have just because you don't like them. She misses the ball more than once, and you have no basis for saying that she'd be able to outborg Seven just because she's very good at what she does (and is more or less unrelated to the Borg.) This is what I mean by unreasonable - you're ascribing negative values to a character where they don't exist. The way you describe it, she should have been such a sue-character that she could summon the Prophets to protect her from the Pah-Wraiths, only to get told by the Prophets that she's so good that they're transferring the Emissary role to her and teleporting her to live with them in the Celestial Temple because she's too good for the sinful universe. In the end, how you react is up to you of course. It is up to you to chose to miss these treats in her as well, and/or like her despite it. This is how she comes across to me. You are obviously very fond of the character, and I have no quarrel with it. You are the one that keep asking questions, and then exclaim that the answers you get are unsatisfactory and feel hurt by it somehow. Just, stop asking, will you? You enjoy writing out your thoughts on why she is a great character and an actress for this role etc, well, you go for it. Enjoy loving her. But do no feel bad if someone else, like me, does not and feel the need to argue about it to prove something either to me, or to discredit my feelings somehow. It's fine. We are all free to feel. I am rather happy with the Discovery characters so far, none of them rubs me the wrong way, though the bubbly Cadet might get trying if she gets too many scenes. But her last conversation with Michael started to feel better. If it's what you see out of the character, fine. But you're making several claims about the narrative nature of the character (claims that don't subject themselves to perspective) that simply don't hold up under inspection. Just saying, it's no more personal than that. You're saying something exists where it factually does not. I'll trouble you no further on it, but there it is. |
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Post by The Hype Himself on Oct 5, 2017 22:53:02 GMT
Well, there are plenty of non-corporeal gaseous entities. So far as space elves go, it's more along the lines of rubber-forehead aliens that have a humanoid appearance. Eh, rubber foreheads, and pointy ears, are about 99.9998% of the galaxy's population. I mean, I get the in-universe reason for it (Precursors Yo!) but that still doesn't change the fact that it makes nearly every alien civilization we come across completely interchangeable and bland as a result, with the noted exception of a few minorities of course. EDIT: Also, how unimaginative was the precursor race that seeded the Milky Way to only opt for a single body type for everyone? If I came from a civilization that could make sapient life on a whim I would have at least added some diversity to my creations. A silicon based life form for this one, non bipedal movement for this one, etc. Not every race was seeded by the Preservers you know. And from an exobiological perspective, for planets with make-ups similar to ours, similar mass, etc. our design makes sense. There are plenty of species that don't meet a humanoid form, but logically, it does work. I think it's interesting that Star Trek was farsighted enough to include a possible explanation for why so many species looked so similar to ours, and that there was a common design theme for the Preservers - as for why they chose a humanoid form? Simple - it was familiar. They weren't necessarily able to make life on a whim, but they were able to tailor its emergence and have it follow a general design comparable to their own. I mean, it's what I'd do - we know it works, and it's a good frame of reference. |
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Post by Vortex13 on Oct 5, 2017 23:52:14 GMT
Eh, rubber foreheads, and pointy ears, are about 99.9998% of the galaxy's population. I mean, I get the in-universe reason for it (Precursors Yo!) but that still doesn't change the fact that it makes nearly every alien civilization we come across completely interchangeable and bland as a result, with the noted exception of a few minorities of course. EDIT: Also, how unimaginative was the precursor race that seeded the Milky Way to only opt for a single body type for everyone? If I came from a civilization that could make sapient life on a whim I would have at least added some diversity to my creations. A silicon based life form for this one, non bipedal movement for this one, etc. Not every race was seeded by the Preservers you know. And from an exobiological perspective, for planets with make-ups similar to ours, similar mass, etc. our design makes sense. There are plenty of species that don't meet a humanoid form, but logically, it does work. I think it's interesting that Star Trek was farsighted enough to include a possible explanation for why so many species looked so similar to ours, and that there was a common design theme for the Preservers - as for why they chose a humanoid form? Simple - it was familiar. They weren't necessarily able to make life on a whim, but they were able to tailor its emergence and have it follow a general design comparable to their own. I mean, it's what I'd do - we know it works, and it's a good frame of reference. Indeed not all did, and on average I think those species tend to be more initially interesting for the simple fact of being different than the same old same old. And I'll agree, the idea of a precursor species was novel for the time, but seeing as how overused it has become now, often being used as a crutch for lazy writing/design I feel the Preservers are now a bit bland for the setting. |
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Post by The Hype Himself on Oct 6, 2017 0:18:49 GMT
Not every race was seeded by the Preservers you know. And from an exobiological perspective, for planets with make-ups similar to ours, similar mass, etc. our design makes sense. There are plenty of species that don't meet a humanoid form, but logically, it does work. I think it's interesting that Star Trek was farsighted enough to include a possible explanation for why so many species looked so similar to ours, and that there was a common design theme for the Preservers - as for why they chose a humanoid form? Simple - it was familiar. They weren't necessarily able to make life on a whim, but they were able to tailor its emergence and have it follow a general design comparable to their own. I mean, it's what I'd do - we know it works, and it's a good frame of reference. Indeed not all did, and on average I think those species tend to be more initially interesting for the simple fact of being different than the same old same old. And I'll agree, the idea of a precursor species was novel for the time, but seeing as how overused it has become now, often being used as a crutch for lazy writing/design I feel the Preservers are now a bit bland for the setting. Perhaps, but being the first to do something gives them a pass in my book - it's like the Clark Kent-exemption rule. Even though it wouldn't fly with any other hero these days, Superman gets a pass because he's Superman, and he predates the cliche. Same with 007: any other spy fiction such as his would be seen as hopelessly sexist and fantastic, but 007 gets grandfathered in because it's 007. It's the same here, in my estimation. While it's probably not the first example, it's the first that got enough exposure to inspire the cliche, without being subject to criticism for it. But that's just my view on that particular matter. Star Trek's real issue comes from wondering just who the first real race was: You have the Q of course (omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient masters of space and time), the Preservers themselves, the aliens from 'Return to Tomorrow' (a separate species from the Preservers who had their precursor aspects transferred over to the Preservers, though I think it was explained that that race was one of the older races created by the Preservers themselves who ended up creating other species using the Preservers as inspiration,) the Borg (they're quite ancient, on the scale of billions of years) and whoever/whatever initially created them (they're given a backstory in the novels, but they're not officially canon,) whoever built the Guardian of Forever, and a whole host of other non-corporeal energy beings (like the Prophets and the Pah-Wraiths for example, the former of which the Q acknowledge as peers in some sense.) |
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Post by Sweet FA on Oct 6, 2017 2:52:43 GMT
There is only one Star Trek episode that truly outraged me, I was absolutely livid and I would class it as the worst Star Trek episode ever. That was the disgraceful series finale of Enterprise "These Are the Voyages". Parachuting Jonathan Frakes and Marina Sirtis in was extremely insensitive and disrespectful to the Enterprise cast, this was their moment and it was taken away from them. At a 2009 Star Trek convention, Jonathan Frakes simply said this episode "stinks." "The final episode of Enterprise was an idiotic move on my part. I thought it would be cool to do a valentine to all of Star Trek. To me there was something really post-modern about the idea of saying this was an episode of Next Generation you have never seen – where they go on the holodeck with their heroes aboard Enterprise. It sounded good in my head – what ended up airing was really bad and not successful completely. It should have been Enterprise's finale – it was a misstep," having added, "The Enterprise actors? They hated it. It was the only time Scott Bakula got pissed off at me." Brannon Braga, 2014. For me, Jeffrey Combs as Commander Shran was excellent in this series. He was also great as the impeccably polite but Machiavellian Weyoun and the malicious Brunt in DS9. Quotes taken from Memory Alpha. Yeah, the last episode of Enterprise killed a lot of the goodwill it had managed to scrape together from fans for its last couple of seasons. That was when it started to develop into its own and come together. Sadly, given the high-stakes nature of modern television, few network executives will have the patience (if any) to sit through the teething problems of a series in order to wait for it to click. It has to hit the ground running, or it's out. Enterprise was a victim of that. If DS9 is the 'Black Sheep' of the Star Trek family, I wonder often what that makes Enterprise. The adopted second cousin who lives on the other side of the world? Enterprise is often the most forgotten of the Treks, and sadly, for good reason in a lot of ways. Whether it be the awful theme (it does grow on you eventually, but you have to admit that a more traditional, symphonic theme would have worked better than a rock-ballad,) the fact that it's separated so far in time from any other recognizable Trek, or having most episodes of the first couple of seasons usually be, at best, no better than a 'meh' run-of-the-mill Voyager episode (a series that itself had issues of producing episodes that weren't more or less completely forgettable at times,), or, most of all, the intriguing-in-another-show-but-completely-awful-for-Enterprise Temporal Cold War arc (Star Trek Online salvaged that story for me, but it still stands as crap that helped kill interest in Enterprise,) though to be fair to the writers on this last one, that was foisted on them by the executives. There's a lot, lot more to say about Enterprise. To me, it's a deeply flawed show that was seriously wonky on quality and continuity (in all honesty, if there is such a thing as being 'too' hindered by keeping to canon, Enterprise was it.) Captain Archer had even more of an inconsistent personality than Janeway, which is saying something - I do actually wonder how he got to command the Enterprise, and I do believe in the fan-theory that it was his father who got him the ship. Eventually, he grew into the role, but there were times were you didn't know if he was going to ram the space anomaly with the ship, or break down in tears and put Porthos in charge. Enterprise, was flawed, maybe miscast and tired. The writing seems jaded as if the production team had run out of ideas. I still watched every episode, as I have watched every Star Trek episode and movie, even though they were sub par it was still recognisable Trek something which cannot be said for more recent productions. I just don't feel it, I never had this problem with any Trek until now, each incarnation was different and unique but it still felt like Star Trek. There was an underlying continuity, they all had a recognisable Star Trek quality which currently is sorely lacking. You can stitch a designer lable on a cheap polyester suit but it doesn't make it Armani. Just because something says it is doesn't mean it is. My major problem with the Enterprise finale is the fundamental lack of human decency, courtesy and respect given to the Enterprise actors. Any person with a sense of decency would have done the right thing by the cast after they had their show cancelled, but instead the show runners were more concerned with their own intellectual vanity. |
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Post by Sweet FA on Oct 6, 2017 13:17:33 GMT
DS9: The Visitor. Another stellar Star Trek episode that dealt with sacrifice, love and the family. This is not just great sci-fi but great storytelling, dramatic writing and acting. It is an exceptional piece of drama.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Shattered Steel, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
Origin: TranscendedOne
PSN: Cornughon
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Post by Transcended One on Oct 6, 2017 16:54:12 GMT
Indeed not all did, and on average I think those species tend to be more initially interesting for the simple fact of being different than the same old same old. And I'll agree, the idea of a precursor species was novel for the time, but seeing as how overused it has become now, often being used as a crutch for lazy writing/design I feel the Preservers are now a bit bland for the setting. Perhaps, but being the first to do something gives them a pass in my book - it's like the Clark Kent-exemption rule. Even though it wouldn't fly with any other hero these days, Superman gets a pass because he's Superman, and he predates the cliche. Same with 007: any other spy fiction such as his would be seen as hopelessly sexist and fantastic, but 007 gets grandfathered in because it's 007. It's the same here, in my estimation. While it's probably not the first example, it's the first that got enough exposure to inspire the cliche, without being subject to criticism for it. But that's just my view on that particular matter. Star Trek's real issue comes from wondering just who the first real race was: You have the Q of course (omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient masters of space and time), the Preservers themselves, the aliens from 'Return to Tomorrow' (a separate species from the Preservers who had their precursor aspects transferred over to the Preservers, though I think it was explained that that race was one of the older races created by the Preservers themselves who ended up creating other species using the Preservers as inspiration,) the Borg (they're quite ancient, on the scale of billions of years) and whoever/whatever initially created them (they're given a backstory in the novels, but they're not officially canon,) whoever built the Guardian of Forever, and a whole host of other non-corporeal energy beings (like the Prophets and the Pah-Wraiths for example, the former of which the Q acknowledge as peers in some sense.) There were also the T'Kon Empire (The Last Outpost), Iconians (Contagion), and the aliens that built the Dyson Sphere in "Relics". But they 'left' only hundreds of thousands of years ago, so I guess they don't count as much. |
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Post by The Hype Himself on Oct 6, 2017 18:38:03 GMT
Perhaps, but being the first to do something gives them a pass in my book - it's like the Clark Kent-exemption rule. Even though it wouldn't fly with any other hero these days, Superman gets a pass because he's Superman, and he predates the cliche. Same with 007: any other spy fiction such as his would be seen as hopelessly sexist and fantastic, but 007 gets grandfathered in because it's 007. It's the same here, in my estimation. While it's probably not the first example, it's the first that got enough exposure to inspire the cliche, without being subject to criticism for it. But that's just my view on that particular matter. Star Trek's real issue comes from wondering just who the first real race was: You have the Q of course (omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient masters of space and time), the Preservers themselves, the aliens from 'Return to Tomorrow' (a separate species from the Preservers who had their precursor aspects transferred over to the Preservers, though I think it was explained that that race was one of the older races created by the Preservers themselves who ended up creating other species using the Preservers as inspiration,) the Borg (they're quite ancient, on the scale of billions of years) and whoever/whatever initially created them (they're given a backstory in the novels, but they're not officially canon,) whoever built the Guardian of Forever, and a whole host of other non-corporeal energy beings (like the Prophets and the Pah-Wraiths for example, the former of which the Q acknowledge as peers in some sense.) There were also the T'Kon Empire (The Last Outpost), Iconians (Contagion), and the aliens that built the Dyson Sphere in "Relics". But they 'left' only hundreds of thousands of years ago, so I guess they don't count as much. The T'Kon were quite powerful, but they had preceding races prior to them. Basically, yeah, they left 'only' a few hundred thousand years prior (hell Bajoran civilization goes back almost 1 million years, and the Borg are estimated to be millions of years old as well.) The Iconians are fleshed out quite a bit in Star Trek Online (you fight a war with them in which they utterly crush a Federation/Klingon/Romulan/Dominion/Delta Quadrant alliance, and you only save the Federation by going back in time during the final battle over Earth and convince the Iconians that not every lesser being is a threat to them: the Iconians are portrayed as a more powerful, xenophobic version of the Founders, and they run an intergalactic/interdimensional empire reminiscent of the Dominion - they were once persecuted by less developed races and nearly wiped out, and they in-turn developed a grudge against all non-Iconian lifeforms (including the Preservers, who acknowledge the Iconians as their 'first' children) and thus plotted vengeance against all lesser races. As for the dyson spheres, those were built by subject races of the Iconians on the Iconians orders (the Solanae, the Elachi, etc.) The Iconians are so powerful that they have Species 8472 (the Undine) under their influence, and are regarded as one of the very first species the Borg ever encountered (and who were considered so advanced and powerful that not even the Borg believed they could be assimilated.) |
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Transcended One
N4
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Shattered Steel, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
Origin: TranscendedOne
PSN: Cornughon
Posts: 1,557 Likes: 2,641
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Post by Transcended One on Oct 6, 2017 19:13:12 GMT
There were also the T'Kon Empire (The Last Outpost), Iconians (Contagion), and the aliens that built the Dyson Sphere in "Relics". But they 'left' only hundreds of thousands of years ago, so I guess they don't count as much. The T'Kon were quite powerful, but they had preceding races prior to them. Basically, yeah, they left 'only' a few hundred thousand years prior (hell Bajoran civilization goes back almost 1 million years, and the Borg are estimated to be millions of years old as well.) The Iconians are fleshed out quite a bit in Star Trek Online (you fight a war with them in which they utterly crush a Federation/Klingon/Romulan/Dominion/Delta Quadrant alliance, and you only save the Federation by going back in time during the final battle over Earth and convince the Iconians that not every lesser being is a threat to them: the Iconians are portrayed as a more powerful, xenophobic version of the Founders, and they run an intergalactic/interdimensional empire reminiscent of the Dominion - they were once persecuted by less developed races and nearly wiped out, and they in-turn developed a grudge against all non-Iconian lifeforms (including the Preservers, who acknowledge the Iconians as their 'first' children) and thus plotted vengeance against all lesser races. As for the dyson spheres, those were built by subject races of the Iconians on the Iconians orders (the Solanae, the Elachi, etc.) The Iconians are so powerful that they have Species 8472 (the Undine) under their influence, and are regarded as one of the very first species the Borg ever encountered (and who were considered so advanced and powerful that not even the Borg believed they could be assimilated.) Interesting. Maybe I'll give ST:O a go in the near future. As for Bajorans: it's hard to believe their civilization goes back so many years, but still got themselves occupied and oppressed by the relatively weak Cardassians. What went so wrong that they got kicked back to the stone age, probably several times? |
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Post by The Hype Himself on Oct 6, 2017 19:36:59 GMT
Yeah, the last episode of Enterprise killed a lot of the goodwill it had managed to scrape together from fans for its last couple of seasons. That was when it started to develop into its own and come together. Sadly, given the high-stakes nature of modern television, few network executives will have the patience (if any) to sit through the teething problems of a series in order to wait for it to click. It has to hit the ground running, or it's out. Enterprise was a victim of that. If DS9 is the 'Black Sheep' of the Star Trek family, I wonder often what that makes Enterprise. The adopted second cousin who lives on the other side of the world? Enterprise is often the most forgotten of the Treks, and sadly, for good reason in a lot of ways. Whether it be the awful theme (it does grow on you eventually, but you have to admit that a more traditional, symphonic theme would have worked better than a rock-ballad,) the fact that it's separated so far in time from any other recognizable Trek, or having most episodes of the first couple of seasons usually be, at best, no better than a 'meh' run-of-the-mill Voyager episode (a series that itself had issues of producing episodes that weren't more or less completely forgettable at times,), or, most of all, the intriguing-in-another-show-but-completely-awful-for-Enterprise Temporal Cold War arc (Star Trek Online salvaged that story for me, but it still stands as crap that helped kill interest in Enterprise,) though to be fair to the writers on this last one, that was foisted on them by the executives. There's a lot, lot more to say about Enterprise. To me, it's a deeply flawed show that was seriously wonky on quality and continuity (in all honesty, if there is such a thing as being 'too' hindered by keeping to canon, Enterprise was it.) Captain Archer had even more of an inconsistent personality than Janeway, which is saying something - I do actually wonder how he got to command the Enterprise, and I do believe in the fan-theory that it was his father who got him the ship. Eventually, he grew into the role, but there were times were you didn't know if he was going to ram the space anomaly with the ship, or break down in tears and put Porthos in charge. Enterprise, was flawed, maybe miscast and tired. The writing seems jaded as if the production team had run out of ideas. I still watched every episode, as I have watched every Star Trek episode and movie, even though they were sub par it was still recognisable Trek something which cannot be said for more recent productions. I just don't feel it, I never had this problem with any Trek until now, each incarnation was different and unique but it still felt like Star Trek. There was an underlying continuity, they all had a recognisable Star Trek quality which currently is sorely lacking. You can stitch a designer lable on a cheap polyester suit but it doesn't make it Armani. Just because something says it is doesn't mean it is. My major problem with the Enterprise finale is the fundamental lack of human decency, courtesy and respect given to the Enterprise actors. Any person with a sense of decency would have done the right thing by the cast after they had their show cancelled, but instead the show runners were more concerned with their own intellectual vanity. Deeply flawed. Miscast? Perhaps not miscast so much as not written well. Jolene Blalock as T'Pol was the weakest Vulcan of the big three (Spock, Tuvok, and T'Pol), and had issues portraying a Vulcan in the logical mindset that we've come to expect. Of course, word of god is that it would have been revealed that she is half-Romulan to explain her emotional outbursts and difficulty with self-control, but overall she had troubled issues. Scott Bakula is an eminently admirable actor, but he didn't bring the particular nuance that you'd expect to Captain Archer. Granted, much of it was the inconsistent writing, but it seems that Archer was often the opposite of whatever he was intended to be, possibly from the disconnect between writer to actor. Malcolm, Hoshi, Travis, and especially Tripp were a lot more consistent, and I thoroughly enjoyed each of them, particularly Hoshi and Tripp. Dr. Phlox seemed like an odd-combination of the Doctor (EMH) and Neelix for some reason. More often than not, it turned out alright, but he's just kind of there for me. It's a shame, because they tried to give him his own identity and make him stand-out from the other Doctors (he faced moral quandaries in a different manner and wasn't as compassionate as McCoy, idealistic as Bashir, or charasmatic as the EMH.) Only Doctor Crusher had less personality, in my opinion. However, for the most part, the crew of Enterprise is completely forgettable. Archer is only known because Scott Bakula played him, and T'Pol is only known because she (seemingly) constantly got down in her underwear and satisfied many a nerd's dream of having a hot Vulcan woman in the franchise. Nobody else stands out in any meaningful way. And you're right, nearly everyone (not named Rick Berman, see the issue?) involved with 'These Are The Voyages...' hated that episode. Jolene Blalock openly disparaged it even before it aired, Brannon Braga recalled it was the only time Scott Bakula ever got seriously pissed that he saw, the head writer for S4, Manny Coto, stated that he doesn't view it as the finale for Enterprise, and Jonathan Frakes put it simply, "It stinks," and that he personally apologized to each major actor in the series for his role in it. Marina Sirtis refuses to talk about it, since it's so shameful for her. Plus, it just missed the mark in so many ways - Blueballing the fans who wanted to see Archer's big speech at the formation of the UFP, something that had been built up for the whole season and then not depicting it. And as I said, the only person who defends it? Rick Berman. After I told you about his issues with Terry Farrell, I actually looked up some of the other stuff in the show that he and Brannon Braga pulled, and found that a lot of behind-the-scenes problems across the different series' were grounded in their actions and behavior. Lastly, on the issue of Enterprise not feeling like Trek... I can somewhat see it (I'm into the TNG-era), but Star Trek has been around long-enough that it has distinctly different eras and atmospheres for each series (which is what they were going for.) To me, Discovery still doesn't quite yet register as a 'Star Trek' series for example, and I don't really take into account what happens in the show yet and its relation to the larger universe. |
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Post by Sweet FA on Oct 6, 2017 21:48:24 GMT
Enterprise
Enterprise comes across as confused, patchy and all over the place, although I did enjoy it in places. I agree with the sexy Vulcan thing, it seemed that T'Pol was either in her underwear, nude or wearing a sprayed on catsuit and fake tan in every episode. In contrast I thought a young fully clothed Kirstie Alley as Saavik in TWOK displayed a subtler charasmatic attractiveness that was more appropriate for a mixed species Vulcan/Romulan character. Sometimes I didn't know if I was watching Star Trek or Catwoman from the Batman franchise, It looked like a sad desperate move.
Scott Bakula was strangely stiff and wooden at times or seemed like he was trying too hard, I don't know if that's completely down to him or the dialogue, writing and direction. The rest of the cast were professionally solid putting in decent somewhat unspectacular workmanlike performances. Maybe we were spoiled by having all those great character actors in previous series eg DS9 and this show suffered in comparison. Interesting how they dropped Star Trek from the titles in the early seasons only to belatedly add it when it was nearly all over. That choice alone displays a certain level of confusion as if they didn't know what they wanted this show to be, did they want it to be Star Trek or not. The least said about the "theme" the better.
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Post by Iakus on Oct 6, 2017 22:11:22 GMT
Enterprise was the first Star Trek show that I didn't watch all the way through. I think I only lasted as long as I did (through the first two seasons) because I was secretly hoping for a Quantum leap-crossover  |
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Post by The Hype Himself on Oct 6, 2017 22:22:06 GMT
The T'Kon were quite powerful, but they had preceding races prior to them. Basically, yeah, they left 'only' a few hundred thousand years prior (hell Bajoran civilization goes back almost 1 million years, and the Borg are estimated to be millions of years old as well.) The Iconians are fleshed out quite a bit in Star Trek Online (you fight a war with them in which they utterly crush a Federation/Klingon/Romulan/Dominion/Delta Quadrant alliance, and you only save the Federation by going back in time during the final battle over Earth and convince the Iconians that not every lesser being is a threat to them: the Iconians are portrayed as a more powerful, xenophobic version of the Founders, and they run an intergalactic/interdimensional empire reminiscent of the Dominion - they were once persecuted by less developed races and nearly wiped out, and they in-turn developed a grudge against all non-Iconian lifeforms (including the Preservers, who acknowledge the Iconians as their 'first' children) and thus plotted vengeance against all lesser races. As for the dyson spheres, those were built by subject races of the Iconians on the Iconians orders (the Solanae, the Elachi, etc.) The Iconians are so powerful that they have Species 8472 (the Undine) under their influence, and are regarded as one of the very first species the Borg ever encountered (and who were considered so advanced and powerful that not even the Borg believed they could be assimilated.) Interesting. Maybe I'll give ST:O a go in the near future. As for Bajorans: it's hard to believe their civilization goes back so many years, but still got themselves occupied and oppressed by the relatively weak Cardassians. What went so wrong that they got kicked back to the stone age, probably several times? I very highly recommend it, and it's F2P. And not like the crummy version of F2P that a lot of other MMO's out there - everything is accessible within the story. The only thing a subscription gives you is a daily allowance of zen-currency that you'd otherwise have to grind (or pay with actual money for... which is still what you're doing, but you get the point.) There is a crap-ton of stuff to do, although admittedly, if you're not really a lore junkie or invested in really building your character, a lot of it can feel repetitive. Still, the fact that you can realistically attain everything you need/want without paying a dime is very appetizing. As for Bajor: Their civilization is incredibly ancient (Bajorans had a written language and cities before homo sapiens technically evolved,) but they never 'developed' as fast as humans, particularly in regards to technology. They're a very wise, enlightened people, but they put most of their efforts into the pursuit philosophy, the arts, etc. They took their time, had their share of societal regressions, and lived more peaceably with what they had (compared to the relentless pursuit of innovation that humans and several other species are known for.) It wasn't until about the mid-17th century (in regards to Earth's own time) that they started to explore their solar neighborhood. At the heart of it all was their dedication to the Prophets, their occasional communion with them, and simply keeping things on the low-down. The Bajorans were also never a particularly militaristic race. The Cardassians on the other hand were quite expansionist and colonial, probably the closest of any actual races to being an interstellar Nazi regime (barring the Ecosians in TOS: 'Patterns of Force', since they were, well, actual Nazis.) The Cardassians are also rather strong, considering that they fought a war against the Federation single-handedly without being overwhelmed or put into a demonstrably weak position (though of course, they got their asses kicked by the Klingons before the Dominion came into the picture.) Given the Cardassians predilection for conquest and the lack of martial might or philosophy among Bajorans, it was pretty easy for them to be subjugated by Cardassia. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 6, 2017 22:36:10 GMT
Enterprise had a moment, at the beginning of the Xindi War, when it could've improved. It took on a very different feeling from the previous seasons, had a hook. Had the potential for a campaign of sorts. The chance for depth and perspective; a renewed onslaught of arguably justifiable xenophobia, a torn character that I thought was well acted in Degra/Randy Oglesby, and the simple fear of the unknown again. Metaphorically, I'd liken it to the beginning of a pen and paper RPG campaign I'd be willing to GM or play. I appreciated some of the nods to getting the technologies we'd grow used to in later time-periods working smoothly as well. (Ie. teleporters/phasors) I liked Dominic Keating in his role, and his banter with Connor Trinneer. I didn't particularly like T'Poledancer. Scott Bakula was... okay, as a captain. Problem is okay doesn't really cut it for that chair. You need something more. To personify the perspective your character has taken, but also to have a distinct perspective for that character. Patrick Stewart has specifically said he wanted to exemplify the renaissance virtues in Picard. (Can't remember where, old interview.) Sisko was a brawler (*literally) and despite being half "god" felt more human to me for his failures. I didn't like Janeway but I will admit she had her specific style, regardless of if I liked it or not. Bakula just, didn't. I didn't really like the fluent tiny asian lady officer who's name I forget. The doctor was, okay at times but just too over the top at other times. * |
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Post by The Hype Himself on Oct 6, 2017 22:55:59 GMT
Warp Speed comparison, in case anyone wants to know:
NX-01 Enterprise (NX-class)
NCC-1701 USS Enterprise (Constitution-class)
NCC-1701-D USS Enterprise (Galaxy-class)
NX-74205 USS Defiant (Defiant-class)
NCC-74656 USS Voyager (Intrepid-class)
NCC-1701-E USS Enterprise (Sovereign-class)
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Post by Sweet FA on Oct 7, 2017 0:37:27 GMT
I weary of my pedantic over analysis...time to change the tone, here's some space silliness......
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Post by Ruliya on Oct 7, 2017 2:49:07 GMT
Speaking of Star Trek silliness, I love this song
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Post by The Hype Himself on Oct 7, 2017 3:19:48 GMT
That's fine, Enterprise isn't something I really focused a lot on or analyzed. I'm not interested in prequels or looking back. I want to look forward, to new horizons, and move past the old safe grounds.
I'd personally want them to push the franchise forward. Set it some time in the early-mid 25th century. Bring back some fresh faces, sure. Have Admiral Tom Paris or Ambassador Worf come in to provide a sense of continuity, but otherwise move forward and don't look back.
I like how ST:O handled it - every so often, you'd get a mission or arc with various characters from the TNG-era (and a few from other eras like Captain Chekov and Ambassador Spock) to pop in and help you out - You have Tuvok, Harry Kim, Seven, Neelix, the Doctor, Tom Paris, Worf, and more than a few other characters from throughout the franchise to bring stuff forward.
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Post by Lady Artifice on Oct 7, 2017 6:36:21 GMT
ST:D is bad. It's really bad.
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Post by Transcended One on Oct 7, 2017 8:25:30 GMT
ST:D is bad. It's really bad. Well, that's kind of your opinion. But I'll bite: Why do you think it's bad? |
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Post by The Hype Himself on Oct 7, 2017 12:38:13 GMT
You know, 'Q Who' is still the best episode with Q in my estimation. So much goes right with it, from the introduction of the Borg, to Q being his usual trickster self who is also trying to make a point about humanity expanding too fast.
And it's not about the crummy justifications given in a series like Mass Effect, nor is he really trying to hold humanity (or the Federation, though at times it can seem like a hew-mon's only club) back - he's showing them that there are some threats out there that, plain and simple, they're just not ready to face yet (technically, it's also a warning, since the Federation's expansion has already caught the attention of the Borg.) Q's just giving them some tough love to prepare them for the reality that will very soon be on the Federation's doorstep. By putting the Enterpise, the pride of Starfleet with the best captain since James Kirk himself against a single Borg cube, Q show's just how out of depth the Federation is when no amount of boldness, genius, technical talent, or the other usual skills and factors counts for squat. Only Q's own intervention get's them out of it. And of course, when Picard tries to rebuke Q that his actions have now informed the Borg about the Federation's existence, Q simply retorts that the Cube was already on its way towards the Federation, had been implied to have already assimilated several colonies along the Neutral Zone, and were already well prepared to face Starfleet. Q's actions simply gave the Federation warning of what was coming.
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Post by The Hype Himself on Oct 7, 2017 12:40:19 GMT
ST:D is bad. It's really bad. Well, that's kind of your opinion. But I'll bite: Why do you think it's bad? If I know Artifice (don't quote me on it, because in all honesty, I really don't), I believe that it's well within her sense of humor to say that ST:D is bad. ST:D. Gettit? In retrospect, it's an unfortunate acronym. |
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Post by mousestalker on Oct 7, 2017 14:07:13 GMT
There's still room for improvement with both ST:D and the Orville. The last two episodes of The Orville were rather good. Wouldn't it be cool if both network Sci-fi shows wound up being stellar?
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Post by The Hype Himself on Oct 7, 2017 14:56:17 GMT
I just use the intended DIS. As for the Orville, I'm not invested in that show at all, and it doesn't sound like something I'd want to watch. Seth MacFarlane's comedic sense doesn't jive with mine so much anymore, and since I have the real deal with Discovery, I just don't see the point with a parody. If it does well, power to it. I'm not against it, it's just not something I see myself getting into.
As for Discovery, my hopes for the series are that I want to see it re-establish a niche role for sci-fi on network television, and to make Star Trek commercially viable. I'm not truly invested in the show itself, due to canonical determinism (it's set in the Prime universe, so we already know what the ultimate endpoint for all the plots will be), and along that same line, I'm not into constantly revisiting the past. Michael Burnham isn't very compelling to me as a lead (I wish they'd instead focus on a crew with the Captain at the forefront, as every other Trek before it had,) and I still see the issues of modern tastes being applied to Trek (I have a feeling it will be too... gritty for its own sake, since that's what sells.)
Ultimately, I want it to succeed so that it paves the way for a clear continuation of the franchise in the mainstream.
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