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Post by majesticjazz on Oct 7, 2017 0:40:24 GMT
The need to protect the delicate wimminz. Oh great, we're going back to the PC debate again? Ridiculous. Im not saying that, just simply asking why were they ok with it in the first two games and nobody complained about the addition of Brothels only for them to jist take them out in DAI and now possibly DA4. What would be their reason?
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Post by vonuber on Oct 7, 2017 0:42:02 GMT
Im not saying that, just simply asking why were they ok with it in the first two games and nobody complained about the addition of Brothels only for them to jist take them out in DAI and now possibly DA4. What would be their reason? Purely just to piss you off, obviously. Why do they need a reason? It's their game, they can do what they want.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Oct 7, 2017 0:54:47 GMT
Oh great, we're going back to the PC debate again? Ridiculous. Im not saying that, just simply asking why were they ok with it in the first two games and nobody complained about the addition of Brothels only for them to jist take them out in DAI and now possibly DA4. What would be their reason? First of all, there were complaints about the brothels way back when. Second, to answer your question they could have any number of reasons. The resources were seen as better spent elsewhere, it didn't fit the story, we don't go to the parts of town that have it, they simply didn't want to, and so on and so forth. None of those are a conspiracy against anyone or has some underlying mentality or agenda, it's simply a decision.
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Post by majesticjazz on Oct 7, 2017 1:00:21 GMT
True, but it is something about Brothels that clearly triggers Bioware in a way they werent with DAO and DA2. The question is, why? All I see being triggered by this issue are a handful of fans. True, there are a lot of fans who are triggered by the lack of brothels not so much for brothels, but how it is a primer for more content to be cut/toned down in order to have a much lighter and less offensive gaming world. Again, I ask.....why the sudden change by Bioware given the fact that the fans never complained after DAO and DA2 about brothels....
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Post by majesticjazz on Oct 7, 2017 1:04:07 GMT
Im not saying that, just simply asking why were they ok with it in the first two games and nobody complained about the addition of Brothels only for them to jist take them out in DAI and now possibly DA4. What would be their reason? Purely just to piss you off, obviously. Why do they need a reason? It's their game, they can do what they want. But there was a reason. We may never know, but obviously they came to the conclusion to take out brothels and there is a reason why. The same reason there was no blood magic and the same reason there were no healing spells.
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Post by phoray on Oct 7, 2017 1:11:58 GMT
Regarding PC: I don't think the people of Thedas were racist enough against a Kossith/Elf/Dwarven Protag. Only Orlais got snooty, as if they're the only Country to have an alienage.
Regarding Sexual Themes: I also felt the writers of DAI required me to play a monogamist or a single person with little wiggle room in between. In real life, I have to be so gosh darn careful or catch something uncomfortable or permanently affecting my health. When you really learn about what all is out there, you realize it's not even safe to kiss a person. How freeing, then, that I can RP a character who happily sleeps with all their friends. Either because they're super poly and don't believe in "ownership of partners" or because they're a HUGE HORNY SLEAZEBALL.
Unlike DAO and DA2, however, they friggen introduced soft locks and hard locks and I feel like I'm having to try hard to get around these things to RP promiscuous characters. That bothers me. I don't want video game people to declare a kiss or a couple of wanton looks in the direction of Character C MUST MEAN that to do anything with character B makes me a cheating sleazeball. That's not reality.
And then you add the deadpan and dismissive "nah" Cat I quoted in OP to the very idea of a building with a couple NPCs in getups ever existing in the next DA game and I jsut feel even more forced to conform to Monogamist views.
I thought Thedas was supposed to be this really cool Medieval place with forward thinking views on sex. Sex for pleasure with whomever you want so long as some babies eventually come out of the women has been kinda the vibe since DAO, with World of Thedas to support that idea. Yay! Sex for pleasure and society doesn't care!
Just for them to rein in it in DAI. With most of you supporting that idea with the premise that the Herald of Andraste doesn't fuck around.
Seriously? There was a Cult of Andraste that Drakon wiped out, called the Sisters of Song? and they got drunk and screwed all day? and had a lovey hippie time? Even Cullen implies that Templars taking vows of Chastity is hardly a main proportion of the Organization. Some people just do that. And the Templars are the main customers of the Blooming Rose in DA2
There is no Lore support for the Society of Thedas to look down on who you fuck or that you fuck. Only on who you marry- and only if you're of the notice of nobles.
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Post by alanc9 on Oct 7, 2017 1:13:57 GMT
The need to protect the delicate wimminz. Oh great, we're going back to the PC debate again? Ridiculous. Weren't we always there? What else is this thread about?
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Post by alanc9 on Oct 7, 2017 1:19:13 GMT
Oh great, we're going back to the PC debate again? Ridiculous. Im not saying that, just simply asking why were they ok with it in the first two games and nobody complained about the addition of Brothels only for them to jist take them out in DAI and now possibly DA4. What would be their reason? "Take them out" is a profoundly silly way to think about this topic. It's not like there was ever a brothel in DAI at any point. What Bio actually did was nothing. They didn't bother to shoehorn a brothel into DAI.
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Post by majesticjazz on Oct 7, 2017 1:26:20 GMT
Im not saying that, just simply asking why were they ok with it in the first two games and nobody complained about the addition of Brothels only for them to jist take them out in DAI and now possibly DA4. What would be their reason? "Take them out" is a profoundly silly way to think about this topic. It's not like there was ever a brothel in DAI at any point. What Bio actually did was nothing. They didn't bother to shoehorn a brothel into DAI. Take them out as in no longer include them in the game. There is a reason why. Just like if they took out romances, a race, or other stuff. There is a reason, especially since they were in the 1st two games. But hey, we have like 18 months to speculate. Lets just hope this frees them up to make better side quest and an emergent open world.
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Post by alanc9 on Oct 7, 2017 1:50:59 GMT
Unlike DAO and DA2, however, they friggen introduced soft locks and hard locks and I feel like I'm having to try hard to get around these things to RP promiscuous characters. That bothers me. I don't want video game people to declare a kiss or a couple of wanton looks in the direction of Character C MUST MEAN that to do anything with character B makes me a cheating sleazeball. That's not reality. No, but surely you see why they have the locks. You could burn a ton of wordcount handing this stuff otherwise.
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Post by Zatche on Oct 7, 2017 1:52:15 GMT
Sometimes it feels as if it can't be "mature" without "gritty" Uh... I don't recall people calling Lord Of The Rings 'sanitized' or 'disneyified' even without sexual content in it - and that's the book the partial inspiration for which was Tolkien's own experience of horrors of WWI... I have to admit, that I've had the biggest laugh at the expense of people who had very arbitrary definition of 'dark and mature' after TW3 was released. Before that, the frequent argument for Inquisitions 'disneyification' I heard was the bright color palette and beautiful lighting effects, instead of the muddied color of DAO (something that stemmed more from technical limitations and was a bit at odds with its design) or many other games which at that points had fashionably muted color palette or ran everything through yellowish filter, which some confused as a sign that the given game is supposedly mature. And then Witcher 3 comes out. Witcher 3: *amazing, bright, saturated colors* mature-games-need-to-have-muted-colors! crowd: *circkets* Yup, you can have a "mature" story without going all "dark and gritty" Game of Thrones and the Witcher have become a cancer. I love GoT, and I like the Witcher. That being said, I enjoy it for other reasons than "it's dark." For all this talk about dark themes, characters, and plot, I don't feel like I'm defending DAI by insistinng that they exist in the game. I wonder why we're not talking about how well the game explores its themes, the quality of the character development, why the narrative is compelling (or not). And unless the game has something new to say about prostitution that makes the inclusion of a brothel more than an uninspired trope, shoehorned to put a checkmark on what seems to be an oddly specific "darkness" checklist, its inclusion or exclusion has no bearing on the questions above.
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Post by slimgrin727 on Oct 7, 2017 1:53:53 GMT
Im not saying that, just simply asking why were they ok with it in the first two games and nobody complained about the addition of Brothels only for them to jist take them out in DAI and now possibly DA4. What would be their reason? First of all, there were complaints about the brothels way back when. Second, to answer your question they could have any number of reasons. The resources were seen as better spent elsewhere, it didn't fit the story, we don't go to the parts of town that have it, they simply didn't want to, and so on and so forth. None of those are a conspiracy against anyone or has some underlying mentality or agenda, it's simply a decision. Complaints about what exactly? How didn't it fit the story? Don't we first meet Isabella in a seedy establishment?
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Post by phoray on Oct 7, 2017 1:54:04 GMT
smilesja I actually never used the buzz words of "Political Correctness", "Social Justice", or ever implied a conspiracy. It could just plain be that the writers themselves are very monogamous and a lot of monogamous people have problems wrapping their minds around the idea of Ethical Polyamory and/or Ethical non monogamy. Also a poly relationship is very complex, I'm not sure it would even be possible to program. What I'm actually talking about is Ethical Mon Monogamy. The conversation with Peebee when she says, "how about some casual sex, no strings?" and the protag can either agree with NSA sex, or disgree about the lack of strings, or simply not have sex with her at all. That was a perfect conversation for two people practicing consensual non romantic sex. Liam's was a bit messy with it coming AFTER the sex, but sometimes in the heat of the moment, maybe it comes up after instead of before. Conveniently for the timing of this conversation, Liam honestly doesn't seem to care either way, leaving the power to make it more entirely in the protag's hands. So it's not messy- for the player, nor for Liam. I will give MEA that much, which is they that brought a couple of scenarios of consensual casual sex (ethical non monogamy) into RP. However, I am unaware if two timing is something that is recognized by your LI in the game, as I considered myself to be in a budding relationship with Jaal by the time I was making out with Reyes on the roof. But I don't think that was Jaal being understanding of my roaming eyes. as regardless of where I thought we were at, we weren't an item until we had an awkward as fuck conversation about his dead bug collection. But if I had had the bug discussion, would the flirt options have still been available? Or were they available but rebuffed? (because obviously Reyes would have heard I was a thing with my squad mate and totally respected that. He's a very solidly moral guy). Maybe it was purely convenience to lock you out of romances because they couldn't be bothered to, immaturely? (sarcasm), include the same Romantic Exclusion Discussions in DAI as they did in DAO? Maybe people thought it demeaned Leliana and Morrigan to get jealous, but that's LIFE. And people shouldn't assume Romantic Exclusion just because you've been physical. It's especially odd coming from Morrigan, who implies that she and the Warden were casual from the get go. The jealousy, in a way, is actually part of her character arc of developing feelings for someone she had meant only to use. But then they would have had to have let you have conversations (as in, paid to have them voiced, MAYBE with cinematic scenes, but not necessarily considering a lot of touchy conversations that are just voiced while two characters are near each other) with the people you were kissing and banging. And they wanted their resources to go elsewhere. The DAI writers didn't want to spend resources on immersive relationship complications of a promiscuous Inquisitor, plain and simple. but we gotta recognize that removes the ability to RP a couple of different kind of characters. But that also has to mean the writers didn't find adding the support for such a variety of characters to be important. My theory being, that they're very monogamous themselves and/or have a lot of Strict Sexual Christian values, or they somehow got numbers that their fanbase is similarly made up of veyr monogamous people and/or having strict sexual christian values. So only players like me were even seeing the content that involved romancing multiple people at once. And considering, at least in Cullen's case, he NOTICES and REBUFFS a quiz soft locked (ugh soft locks) with another, I do wonder a little bit if there was intent for this content to be there and they simply had to cut it. This has already gone on a long bit. I wanted to add, somewhat connected, that a Hawke that slept with Fenris and then rebounded to Anders... his line about "Anders better take care of Hawke". THAT LINE made me super intrigued about Fenris. Now he's my favorite LI, possibly out of the entire pile. And it's only because the DA2 writers decided to put resources into tracking HAwke's current and past partners and include Jealousy conversation that I now have Fenris in that spot. This stuff I want is not just so I can "bang them all and in the darkness use them". It immerses me, let's me see more of my companions thinking, and makes me love them as narrative characters MORE. Edit Add: So while some people argue the lack of ability to cheat and the lack of brothels is FORWARD and PC and SJW or whatever the Fudge, I actually consider it BACKWARD and weakening game media support for equal sexual rights and freedoms. It's immature/over simplification to brush a relationship as either "together" or "not". And no, I'm not implying that Bioware is ruinign the world with the lack of a brothel. But they gave me an awesome world where I could have shameless sex and then they took it back. And the Relationships are becoming shallower and more similar to a grade school kid's idea of romance. "Some day I will meet ONE PERSON and we'll be TOGETHER FOREVER."
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Post by alanc9 on Oct 7, 2017 1:56:18 GMT
"Take them out" is a profoundly silly way to think about this topic. It's not like there was ever a brothel in DAI at any point. What Bio actually did was nothing. They didn't bother to shoehorn a brothel into DAI. Take them out as in no longer include them in the game. There is a reason why. Just like if they took out romances, a race, or other stuff. There is a reason, especially since they were in the 1st two games. But hey, we have like 18 months to speculate. Lets just hope this frees them up to make better side quest and an emergent open world. Wouldn't putting something into a game be the thing that needed "a reason why"?
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Oct 7, 2017 1:59:22 GMT
Unlike DAO and DA2, however, they friggen introduced soft locks and hard locks and I feel like I'm having to try hard to get around these things to RP promiscuous characters. That bothers me. I don't want video game people to declare a kiss or a couple of wanton looks in the direction of Character C MUST MEAN that to do anything with character B makes me a cheating sleazeball. That's not reality. No, but surely you see why they have the locks. You could burn a ton of wordcount handing this stuff otherwise. Yeah, I remember when asked about it Bioware said making a poly romance is a nightmare between all the programming, writing, voice work, etc needed for all the variations. The only way it could work is if there were two characters already together and the PC can join them in a poly relationship.
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Post by melbella on Oct 7, 2017 2:01:30 GMT
Yeah, it's all there, it's just that the presentation and pacing were off. I mean I was pretty pissed that they let us jump around on big spikes of red lyrium, unharmed. That's the sort of thing that I don't like getting glossed over. Not to mention all the "S/he's already dead," fetch quests. Yet there's a lot that got to me, like having to put down Carroll, the boatman Templar from DAO, and the persistent buzzing noise in the Exalted Plains that made it nerve-wracking to stay there for long. There is also the hunter witnessing and killing the templar attempting to rape a woman who's been badly burned and the little girl in the chateau who had a desire demon prey upon her loneliness and was left traumatized by whatever it did to her family and their guests. Also, Mistress Poulin having to sacrifice citizens of Sahmia to protect the rest. This is just to name a few. I consider Dragon Age: Inquisition to have as much dark content as the previous games in the series. One of Inquisition's flaws, however, is that it often has problems properly presenting its contents in a way that invokes the right atmosphere and presence. This is not exclusive to its dark content either. It does many things right that I hope will be remembered for future installments but this is one I think it has trouble with and should be improved upon. The things that are portrayed are indeed terrible, but the way they are portrayed is sanitized, and that's the issue.
Instead of walking into the house to see said ex-Templar attacking the half dead burnt mage, we read about it. Second hand.
Instead of finding the girl in the middle of a battle of wills against a desire demon, we read about it. After everyone (except the demon) already died.
It's the difference between reading history and living it. The first can be powerful but never as powerful. They aren't the same thing by a long shot.
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Post by smilesja on Oct 7, 2017 2:04:11 GMT
phoray Or like @carefull suggests, that it's difficult to program so many relationships. Bioware is pretty liberal on relationships considering that you can be polygamous in the first two games I believe. One could argue that we don't get into too many relationships in DAI because they struggled with the engine and since as mentioned before you can be in multiple relationships in ME: A, I can see this being a possiblity in DA 4.
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Post by melbella on Oct 7, 2017 2:06:27 GMT
First of all, there were complaints about the brothels way back when. Second, to answer your question they could have any number of reasons. The resources were seen as better spent elsewhere, it didn't fit the story, we don't go to the parts of town that have it, they simply didn't want to, and so on and so forth. None of those are a conspiracy against anyone or has some underlying mentality or agenda, it's simply a decision. Complaints about what exactly? How didn't it fit the story? Don't we first meet Isabella in a seedy establishment? The Hanged Man a "seedy establishment"?!
Varric would be so proud.
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Post by midnight tea on Oct 7, 2017 2:07:41 GMT
Take them out as in no longer include them in the game. There is a reason why. Just like if they took out romances, a race, or other stuff. There is a reason, especially since they were in the 1st two games. But hey, we have like 18 months to speculate. Lets just hope this frees them up to make better side quest and an emergent open world. Wouldn't putting something into a game be the thing that needed "a reason why"? Oh, but don't you know? All things in the game come pre-programmed and devs just make a decision what to leave in the game based on what they like/don't like!
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Post by phoray on Oct 7, 2017 2:08:29 GMT
There is also the hunter witnessing and killing the templar attempting to rape a woman who's been badly burned and the little girl in the chateau who had a desire demon prey upon her loneliness and was left traumatized by whatever it did to her family and their guests. Also, Mistress Poulin having to sacrifice citizens of Sahmia to protect the rest. This is just to name a few. I consider Dragon Age: Inquisition to have as much dark content as the previous games in the series. One of Inquisition's flaws, however, is that it often has problems properly presenting its contents in a way that invokes the right atmosphere and presence. This is not exclusive to its dark content either. It does many things right that I hope will be remembered for future installments but this is one I think it has trouble with and should be improved upon. The things that are portrayed are indeed terrible, but the way they are portrayed is sanitized, and that's the issue.
Instead of walking into the house to see said ex-Templar attacking the half dead burnt mage, we read about it. Second hand.
Instead of finding the girl in the middle of a battle of wills against a desire demon, we read about it. After everyone (except the demon) already died.
It's the difference between reading history and living it. The first can be powerful but never as powerful. They aren't the same thing by a long shot.
Oh yeah, and what about that Quest where the Templar leaning brother writes a letter to his mage brother about how he's going to "stop him" ? And we follow the clues to a place where... wait, there was just a demon there? I mean, we missed some serious steps there. It was like Point A to Point F. When it could have been so cool if we'd actually gotten to side with one brother or the other. Like the dalish vs werewolf encounter in DA2. Imagine if we'd supported the Mage brother in his freedom. And we had to kill his templar brother for he wouldn't stand down. Alternatively, we could support the Templar brother and watch the MAge brother give into a Rage demon. And we had to kill the abomination of his former brother. Or if we had the right perk, we could save them both. Uh, way better right? three ways to RP= AWESOME SAUCE, As it was, it was just a follow the map symbols, kill a demon, scratch my head as I filled in the narrative gap and move on with life. Let's go get that Druffalo.
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Post by majesticjazz on Oct 7, 2017 2:10:30 GMT
Take them out as in no longer include them in the game. There is a reason why. Just like if they took out romances, a race, or other stuff. There is a reason, especially since they were in the 1st two games. But hey, we have like 18 months to speculate. Lets just hope this frees them up to make better side quest and an emergent open world. Wouldn't putting something into a game be the thing that needed "a reason why"? Not sure what you are implying but between DA2 and the development of DAI and now DA4, Bioware had a reason to no longer include brothels despite not being something that a large portion of gamers complained about.
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Post by melbella on Oct 7, 2017 2:10:58 GMT
Wouldn't putting something into a game be the thing that needed "a reason why"? Oh, but don't you know? All things in the game come pre-programmed and devs just make a decision what to leave in the game based what they like/don't like! The lost wax method of game design?
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Post by smilesja on Oct 7, 2017 2:13:53 GMT
There is also the hunter witnessing and killing the templar attempting to rape a woman who's been badly burned and the little girl in the chateau who had a desire demon prey upon her loneliness and was left traumatized by whatever it did to her family and their guests. Also, Mistress Poulin having to sacrifice citizens of Sahmia to protect the rest. This is just to name a few. I consider Dragon Age: Inquisition to have as much dark content as the previous games in the series. One of Inquisition's flaws, however, is that it often has problems properly presenting its contents in a way that invokes the right atmosphere and presence. This is not exclusive to its dark content either. It does many things right that I hope will be remembered for future installments but this is one I think it has trouble with and should be improved upon. The things that are portrayed are indeed terrible, but the way they are portrayed is sanitized, and that's the issue.
Instead of walking into the house to see said ex-Templar attacking the half dead burnt mage, we read about it. Second hand.
Instead of finding the girl in the middle of a battle of wills against a desire demon, we read about it. After everyone (except the demon) already died.
It's the difference between reading history and living it. The first can be powerful but never as powerful. They aren't the same thing by a long shot.
Well at least some of them.
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ღ I am a golem. Obviously.
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Post by phoray on Oct 7, 2017 2:14:08 GMT
For all this talk about dark themes, characters, and plot, I don't feel like I'm defending DAI by insistinng that they exist in the game. I wonder why we're not talking about how well the game explores its themes, the quality of the character development, why the narrative is compelling (or not). The strength of RP in DAI is teh exploration of Faith and maintaining Appearances for Morale. I've enjoyed a lot out of the game, expressing myself as Laidback Agnostic, Rabid angry Atheist, Devout Dalish, and now a Devout Andrastian. I would love to have explored a Kossith who still tried to follow the Qun or a merc Dwarf that believed in the Ancestors even as they were excluded from them, but I assume, probably correctly, that there is literally no support for the latter two. So the faith bit is cool, but as I think formerfiend ? stated, I am forced to merely acknowledge a dislike for Morale Appearance Keeping, but I can't hardly RP someone who is actually awful at the job of being Inquisitor. Watch the Quiz give all the worst Judgement decisions, and only Varric takes you aside to maybe discuss that you should be making different decisions. But there aren't war table missions to make up for the mess you created with your suckiness, for example.
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Post by smilesja on Oct 7, 2017 2:16:03 GMT
Yeah, I feel like discussing DAI's strengths because they are often overlooked.
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