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Post by hero11n7 on Oct 8, 2017 8:41:04 GMT
To quote Dorian: "This conversation has taken a turn for the moronic."
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Post by sageoflife on Oct 8, 2017 9:45:58 GMT
To quote Dorian: "This conversation has taken a turn for the moronic." I wouldn't call it a sharp turn.
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Post by isaidlunch on Oct 8, 2017 10:19:02 GMT
I think makes sense that, even as the leader, not every little thing is within our control. Something going wrong doesn't necessarily indicate our characters' incompetence.
Yet we are accused of incompetence. By the Exalted Council. By Solas. And we have no defense because apparently, off screen during two years in which we literally had NO CONTROL over our character or organization, SHIT HAPPENED. And we get blamed for it.
I don't mind being blamed for stuff that is my fault. Like DAO Teagan yelling at me for leaving Redcliffe to defend itself and everyone except him died as a result. Yep. My fault. But getting blamed for stuff that is creator fiat is infuriating.
Being blamed for not handing over the Crestwood keep was ridiculous. The advisors came out of Trespasser looking like clowns.
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Post by gervaise21 on Oct 8, 2017 13:23:04 GMT
It was a similar thing with the Qunari infiltration. Both Leliana and Varric ought to know that elves in Kirkwall had been recruited as sleeper agents, plus others elsewhere, because that was the whole point of the "list" that Tallis recovered. Then when the Arishok launched his attack there were loads of elves on the side of the Qunari. Yet apparently Leliana didn't bother sufficiently with background checks to elves she knew had originated in Kirkwall or anywhere considering what Gatt also tells us about Quanri agents. In fact her background checks seemed tardy all round. They didn't flag up Solas' story was bogus until after he had left. They may have flagged up Blackwall (which she ought to know was a bogus story anyway given her connection with the Wardens during the 5th Blight) but she failed to inform the Inquisitor until after the event. The only spy we knew about was Iron Bull because he told us, strangely enough because he thought otherwise Leliana would have found out (I very much doubt it).
Still if time was somewhat limited during the conflict with Corypheus she had two years to catch up on the background checks before the Exalted Council took place. We had a lot of occasions with enemy agents being able to get into Skyhold, which should have told her checks needed to be made and better systems introduced.
Also what organisation doesn't have a properly authorised requisition system that would flag up if someone was sneaking stuff in that shouldn't be there?
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Post by phoray on Oct 8, 2017 13:41:53 GMT
Nudity /=/ Good Story telling and immersive world building.
This topic is about the latter, not the former, and how brothels and such adult themes do and don't fit.
Tits and Ass aren't a narrative theme
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Post by rras1994 on Oct 8, 2017 13:43:57 GMT
It was a similar thing with the Qunari infiltration. Both Leliana and Varric ought to know that elves in Kirkwall had been recruited as sleeper agents, plus others elsewhere, because that was the whole point of the "list" that Tallis recovered. Then when the Arishok launched his attack there were loads of elves on the side of the Qunari. Yet apparently Leliana didn't bother sufficiently with background checks to elves she knew had originated in Kirkwall or anywhere considering what Gatt also tells us about Quanri agents. In fact her background checks seemed tardy all round. They didn't flag up Solas' story was bogus until after he had left. They may have flagged up Blackwall (which she ought to know was a bogus story anyway given her connection with the Wardens during the 5th Blight) but she failed to inform the Inquisitor until after the event. Still if time was somewhat limited during the conflict with Corypheus she had two years to catch up on the background checks before the Exalted Council took place. Also what organisation doesn't have a properly authorised requisition system that would flag up if someone was sneaking stuff in that shouldn't be there? An organisation that doesn't have computers perhaps? Heck, even with computer systems you still hear in the real world of people taking large sums of money from their companies and getting away with it for years. A large organisation is a behemouth and it's quite frankly impossible to figure out what each of your guys are doing or to have a thorough background check on each of them. Add in the fact that you are a society which largely doesn't keep records (passports, birth certificates), the majority is illiterate and you're having to record everything on paper which can be lost and not everyone in your organisations going to be able to see, it's not at all surprising you are going to get infiltrated. What should Lelianna done, keep all elves out? That wouldn't have worked. We can perhaps have a go about Solas and Blackwall but people not leaving a paper trail isn't unusual in this time period. Quite frankly Solas' story of being an apostate loner mage is the perfect cover story, it makes sense why there's no evidence of him because an apostate isn't going to want to attract the authorities notice. What happened to the Inquisition wasn't preventable, there wasn't any system that was going to be the perfect solution - that was the point. And it's the same point as why trying to use a large organisation against Solas wouldn't work either. There are benefits to having a large organisations but there are drawbacks as well. This is something that real world comapanies and organisations have to deal with in the real world as well. Usually, the stakes are some employies stealing too many pens rather than your former ally trying to bring back an ancient world while destroying the current one however...
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Post by phoray on Oct 8, 2017 13:44:35 GMT
Yet we are accused of incompetence. By the Exalted Council. By Solas. And we have no defense because apparently, off screen during two years in which we literally had NO CONTROL over our character or organization, SHIT HAPPENED. And we get blamed for it.
I don't mind being blamed for stuff that is my fault. Like DAO Teagan yelling at me for leaving Redcliffe to defend itself and everyone except him died as a result. Yep. My fault. But getting blamed for stuff that is creator fiat is infuriating.
Being blamed for not handing over the Crestwood keep was ridiculous. The advisors came out of Trespasser looking like clowns. Literally my reaction when I finally understood what the Council was being called for, I was like, "I'VE been doing WHAT?! " I mean, did Josephine hide the letters from me, because I would not have kept Occupying lands after I'd been asked to leave.
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Post by river82 on Oct 8, 2017 13:49:52 GMT
I know we're WAY off topic, but I remember back in 2011 that there were people in the DA wiki who complained about DA2 being too dark. A stupid complaint. The Dragon Age series was created to be dark. It's like complaining that speculative fiction is too speculative. And if you want to go back further people complained about Origins being too light and that it was essentially a heroic fantasy story in disguise (a valid complaint about a series that was meant to be dark, imo)
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Post by rras1994 on Oct 8, 2017 13:56:55 GMT
Being blamed for not handing over the Crestwood keep was ridiculous. The advisors came out of Trespasser looking like clowns. Literally my reaction when I finally understood what the Council was being called for, I was like, "I'VE been doing WHAT?! " I mean, did Josephine hide the letters from me, because I would not have kept Occupying lands after I'd been asked to leave. Actually I think Josephine had been putting off dealing with those sorts of issues. Afterall, she had also been trying to put off the Exalted Council as well for two whole years. Her whole job involves keeping the inquisition in a powerful position, giving away keeps that the inquisition currently uses would lesson their position. It's important to point out, that while the inquisitor is the head of the organisation the advisors have always had an important role in making the decisions and often do it without our input. Throughout the game I've always felt that even though I'm the leader I don't get to make all the decisions, that my power isn't as great as the image that is put out. Which makes sense as there is literally no organisation where one person gets to make all the decisions. I actually kinda liked that I wasn't the all powerfull PC that makes all the decisons and everything I do is right. I was put in a position of pwer but I had real limitaions that caused problems. While I accomplished my goal not everything went smoothly. And there was nothing I could do to prevent it and it wasn't even really my fault either
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Post by Gwydden on Oct 8, 2017 14:03:13 GMT
Nudity /=/ Good Story telling and immersive world building.
This topic is about the latter, not the former, and how brothels and such adult themes do and don't fit. Tits and Ass aren't a narrative theme What is your take on Hegel’s conception of the dialectic duality of well-shaped bosoms? In all seriousness, here’s my thing with brothels: they never seem to do much of anything beyond being a gimmick. Sure, you can have quests there, but you can have quests anywhere. Dropping some of my hard-earned gold on a prostitute to get a fade to black or janky pixel sex has always seemed a waste. Even if I want to role play a hedonistic character, I figure it’s better to headcanon his escapades rather than doing something so bare and self-contained. I’m not sure how to address those issues, to be honest. One idea I had was to make the brothel a quest hub, but more like they are in, say, Assassin’s Creed 2 (with an extra RPG sprinkling, of course). You help them keep the business running and protect their workers, and in return they might provide you with services like intelligence gathering and the like. That would give you a more honest look into the city’s underbelly, and allow you to interact with the prostitutes like actual characters. At that point, I might be even willing to drop those gold coins, if only to see if it would unlock more content for the hub. I would also like companions to have more interactions with this hypothetical brothel. For some, it might mean hanging around there often. For others, it may mean getting extremely judgmental if you try to take advantage of the services. The most fun I’ve had in a video game brothel in a while was in my current BG2 run, when I tried to talk with the madame only for Jaheira to immediately cut her off and say “No, he’s not interested in anything you have to offer.” God, was I laughing.
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Post by phoray on Oct 8, 2017 14:05:14 GMT
Literally my reaction when I finally understood what the Council was being called for, I was like, "I'VE been doing WHAT?! " I mean, did Josephine hide the letters from me, because I would not have kept Occupying lands after I'd been asked to leave. Actually I think Josephine had been putting off dealing with those sorts of issues. Afterall, she had also been trying to put off the Exalted Council as well for two whole years. Her whole job involves keeping the inquisition in a powerful position, giving away keeps that the inquisition currently uses would lesson their position. It's important to point out, that while the inquisitor is the head of the organisation the advisors have always had an important role in making the decisions and often do it without our input. Throughout the game I've always felt that even though I'm the leader I don't get to make all the decisions, that my power isn't as great as the image that is put out. Which makes sense as there is literally no organisation where one person gets to make all the decisions. I actually kinda liked that I wasn't the all powerfull PC that makes all the decisons and everything I do is right. I was put in a position of pwer but I had real limitaions that caused problems. While I accomplished my goal not everything went smoothly. And there was nothing I could do to prevent it and it wasn't even really my fault either Okay. That's cool, I get that. But Jose hid letters of actual dignataries asking my organization to Cease, Desist, and Leave. I only needed the Organization to Stop Corypheus. I cannot fathom a reason why I or any of my Inquisitors would ignore these letters, so this means Jose must have hid them. and WHY? by the way? Sometimes I feel like the Advisors get off more on maintaining the Inquisition than I ever did. And it puts Jose in a dark light. Except the Inquisitor can't be all like, "What the hell, this is the first time I've heard of this" even when, as the player, it literally IS the first time we've heard of it. So it makes it look like we've colluded with out advisors on some shady power grabbing, plain and simple. I find it amusing that everyone was so bent out of shape about Hawke being poorly misrepresented (I thought the way I played Hawke was pretty spot on) where I felt that way about my Quiz during the two year time jump.
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Post by midnight tea on Oct 8, 2017 14:30:07 GMT
Actually I think Josephine had been putting off dealing with those sorts of issues. Afterall, she had also been trying to put off the Exalted Council as well for two whole years. Her whole job involves keeping the inquisition in a powerful position, giving away keeps that the inquisition currently uses would lesson their position. It's important to point out, that while the inquisitor is the head of the organisation the advisors have always had an important role in making the decisions and often do it without our input. Throughout the game I've always felt that even though I'm the leader I don't get to make all the decisions, that my power isn't as great as the image that is put out. Which makes sense as there is literally no organisation where one person gets to make all the decisions. I actually kinda liked that I wasn't the all powerfull PC that makes all the decisons and everything I do is right. I was put in a position of pwer but I had real limitaions that caused problems. While I accomplished my goal not everything went smoothly. And there was nothing I could do to prevent it and it wasn't even really my fault either Okay. That's cool, I get that. But Jose hid letters of actual dignataries asking my organization to Cease, Desist, and Leave. I only needed the Organization to Stop Corypheus. I cannot fathom a reason why I or any of my Inquisitors would ignore these letters, so this means Jose must have hid them. and WHY? by the way? Sometimes I feel like the Advisors get off more on maintaining the Inquisition than I ever did. And it puts Jose in a dark light. Except the Inquisitor can't be all like, "What the hell, this is the first time I've heard of this" even when, as the player, it literally IS the first time we've heard of it. So it makes it look like we've colluded with out advisors on some shady power grabbing, plain and simple. I find it amusing that everyone was so bent out of shape about Hawke being poorly misrepresented (I thought the way I played Hawke was pretty spot on) where I felt that way about my Quiz during the two year time jump. Do we even know she hid anything? And the reason Inquisition stayed wasn't just "because Cory" - at some point in time Inquisition was the only stabilizing force in the region capable of restoring order. And considering that Ferelden STILL recovers from the Blight from a decade ago, it'd be preposterous to think that the land has recovered only 2 years after the defeat of Cory, what with all the rifts and demons and red lyrium or red templars and so on. Inquisition is likely still, by and large, the major stabilizing force - but the world is slowly crawling out of the ditch it swerved into, so naturally they'd start looking an Quizzy and be all "hmmmm... maybe it's time to pass the torch? Or share that pie with others?". And we don't know the details of the 'fight' over Caer Bronach. Maybe it was a more complicated issue we know of. Maybe Inquisition got Cease and Desist, only for Ferelden to go "actually, there's a problem, please stay for a while", or maybe local people asked for Inquisition's protection seeing that Fereldan forces care little for them (which is exactly what was presented in the game), or maybe Ferelden has soured on Inquisition after they've found out that the Keep is used predominantly by the organizations' spies, or maybe it was just a moment of realization that "hey... it's been 2 years since Cory got defeated, I think it's time to start asking what exactly Inquisition is doing on our territory". Either way, with Inquisition remaining as powerful as it was when it defeated Cory, a country which only has recently regained its independence would be a bit paranoid about a powerful entity able to fairly easily fit it under its shoe. I know - I live in such country.
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Post by phoray on Oct 8, 2017 14:52:21 GMT
midnight teaThe problem is, no explaination is given. We just start Trespasser already in the wrong. Why? Because Bioware took narrative control of our character for two in game years with no input from us the player. and starting already in the wrong is what melbella and I find so frustrating.
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Post by midnight tea on Oct 8, 2017 15:38:09 GMT
midnight tea The problem is, no explaination is given. We just start Trespasser already in the wrong. Why? Because Bioware took narrative control of our character for two in game years with no input from us the player. and starting already in the wrong is what melbella and I find so frustrating. Why is explanation even necessary? The crux of the argument of Teagan is clear "It's been 2 years since Corypheus, Inquisitor. What are you planning to do now?" Considering Ferelden's concern and Inquisition's power, this is a legitimate question dressed as a the complaint of holding some of Ferelden's territory. Besides - it's not like we start Trespassser and have Teagan yelling at us that we took the keep. Josie and the rest take their time to explain that Ferelden will want Inquisition disbanded and Orlais wants it muzzled and tell us multiple times that we should brace ourselves for aggressive negotiations and each side pushing their agenda, while we parry theirs with ours. Well, this is how this looks like. Heck, even Morrigan warns us in main game that this will happen, and Leliana expresses surprise that it took 2 years for Southern leadership to start pushing back. This isn't about "being in the wrong" - this is about the place of Inquisition in the larger fabric of the world. The Keep simply illustrates the point.
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Post by alanc9 on Oct 8, 2017 16:05:18 GMT
If the Inquisition had abandoned Crestwood and pulled everybody back to Orlais, Teagan would have been complaining that the Inquisition is obviously a military auxiliary of Orlais and should be disbanded on that basis. Crestwood is just a proxy for the larger issue, just like brothels are a proxy for the larger issues in this thread.
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Post by melbella on Oct 8, 2017 16:07:30 GMT
Too bad we never get the opportunity to "parry theirs with ours." We get one line about Caer Bronach and that's it before new shit hits the fan and we are once again *forced* into keeping everything quiet instead of telling them what's going on. Even the friggin' Divine is in on the secret, if it's Leliana, yet no one takes umbrage with her, just the Inquisitor. Easier target, yeah?
I hope no one comes to save them next time things get too hot. They can all die, for all I care. Ungrateful bastards.
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Post by cloud9 on Oct 9, 2017 1:41:56 GMT
Nudity /=/ Good Story telling and immersive world building.
This topic is about the latter, not the former, and how brothels and such adult themes do and don't fit. Tits and Ass aren't a narrative theme Hey! What if I want to be a prostitute in the game??? Making money by giving my clients pleasure, too? You can't beat that with a bat. You're no fun at all.....
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Post by naughtynomad on Oct 9, 2017 2:01:09 GMT
Nudity /=/ Good Story telling and immersive world building.
This topic is about the latter, not the former, and how brothels and such adult themes do and don't fit. Tits and Ass aren't a narrative theme They definitely can be. Depends on the story you want to tell imo.
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Post by phoray on Oct 9, 2017 2:02:19 GMT
Nudity /=/ Good Story telling and immersive world building.
This topic is about the latter, not the former, and how brothels and such adult themes do and don't fit. Tits and Ass aren't a narrative theme They definitely can be. Depends on the story you want to tell imo. I honestly ask you to present me a Dragon Age Game Idea where Nudity is the Theme.
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Post by alanc9 on Oct 9, 2017 2:05:19 GMT
... considering I believe Sera was not introduced as such. You raise an interesting point here. Sera is introduced with some goofy name because that is the name she volunteered when they arrived. I doubt Josephine would have come up with it. So why then was Solas introduced as a servant? IMO if you're going to have something like that for one elven follower, showing the Orlesian prejudice, it should apply to both elven followers. I took this as happening because Sera took an interest in the proceedings while Solas did not.
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Post by melbella on Oct 9, 2017 2:13:00 GMT
Sera is a prankster so she played a prank on the guy doing the intros. Solas likes to remain unnoticed, so being introduced as a servant is the best way to do that. Why is this so hard to figure out?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 9, 2017 2:23:08 GMT
You raise an interesting point here. Sera is introduced with some goofy name because that is the name she volunteered when they arrived. I doubt Josephine would have come up with it. So why then was Solas introduced as a servant? IMO if you're going to have something like that for one elven follower, showing the Orlesian prejudice, it should apply to both elven followers. I took this as happening because Sera took an interest in the proceedings while Solas did not. To quote Solas at Halamshiral: “I do adore the heady blend of power, intrigue, danger, and sex that permeates these events.” I think he's plenty interested, he's just keeping a low profile. Also, makes very clear certain things Solas likes, which imply a very different sort of person than just the scholarly hermit he initially pretends to be.
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Post by alanc9 on Oct 9, 2017 3:02:25 GMT
Yeah, I was being sloppy there. Not interested in his own presentation, I meant.
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Post by linksocarina on Oct 9, 2017 3:13:30 GMT
So this thread is now gone to questioning fans loyalty because the didn't like a certain quest in the game? And people wonder why I laugh at all of them for such notions..
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Post by Deleted on Oct 9, 2017 3:17:24 GMT
Yeah, I was being sloppy there. Not interested in his own presentation, I meant. I'll give you a pass, because of your awesome Marvin icon.
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