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Post by naughtynomad on Oct 12, 2017 5:54:13 GMT
Oh wow, look at that... guy on youtube. Truly, with such significant voices in the gaming or storytelling community laying it out how it is, we've been shown the error of our ways See this right here is your problem. Instead of ever actually addressing an argument, you just try to dismiss it. This is actually what is wrong with society in general these days. You've lost the ability to counter an argument with logic and reason, and instead rely on your internet echo chambers to validate your beliefs. The facts are that the point made by myself and majestic jazz are also held by a large number of other fans as well. I was here on the forums when Inquisition came out. The amount of hate and rage over these same points was everywhere. Most of the angry fans left, leaving the blind loyalist like yourself who shut off all reason to defend your sinking franchise. Others of us actually want to save it. Just wait. Once DA4 is announced officially, these boards will get renewed interest from the fans who left again. And then you'll see how much a minority you are. DAI fell short. Insisting it didnt won't get you anywhere without a valid argument to support otherwise.
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Post by smilesja on Oct 12, 2017 5:58:45 GMT
Oh wow, look at that... guy on youtube. Truly, with such significant voices in the gaming or storytelling community laying it out how it is, we've been shown the error of our ways It is plainly obvious that while DAI has its dark moments, it is generally a "lighter" game than the previous 2.People already know that.
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Post by smilesja on Oct 12, 2017 6:00:13 GMT
I feel that people rely way too much on Youtubers now. Most of them aren't really that well informed and rely on emotion. Unfortunately, I often find them more reliable than games "media."
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Post by alanc9 on Oct 12, 2017 6:55:02 GMT
I sometimes think it's a problem with video itself. People seem to swallow nonsense in a video that they'd never swallow if the same argument as presented as text.
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Post by river82 on Oct 12, 2017 7:20:21 GMT
I sometimes think it's a problem with video itself. People seem to swallow nonsense in a video that they'd never swallow if the same argument as presented as text. I'm quite certain you've just pulled this thought bubble straight from your arse. Especially considering there's a correlation observed between reading comprehension in a person and listening comprehension in a person, that those who understands written material well also understands listening material well, which would lead people to the exact same conclusions regardless of how that material was presented. There is a reason why audiobooks are booming. Possibly you see more people swayed by a video than in a piece of text media which says the same thing, but it's also possible that many of those watching the video would have never have read it in text form which may account for the disparity in numbers. But that doesn't really matter. What does matter is I've seen nothing to suggest anywhere that people are more easily swayed by video than text.
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Post by gervaise21 on Oct 12, 2017 9:22:38 GMT
It is not just the fact they could be slave brothels. They could be ordinary ones and it could still be an awful existence for those who work in them. Dorian makes a big issue of how it is better to be a house slave in Tevinter than living free in the slums. Since Alexius originally rescued him from a brothel in the elven slums he actually does have some idea of what those condition are like. So, particularly if we are going to be forced into defending the status quo (as happened in DAI) instead of radically challenging it, we at least need to see and appreciate why Dorian may have had some justification for his views. If the elven slums have "houses of ill repute" then even if we can't go inside them, they at least need to make it clear they are there and workers may be propositioning you on the street or advertising their wares in the window or something like that, to immerse you in the setting.
That is just part of the overall setting for Tevinter though and has nothing to do with whether the game is "dark" or not. The principle indicator that DAI became less "dark" overall in its development can be seen if you compare the first ever trailer in 2013 (and the alpha playthrough) with later trailers and what we ultimately received. That first trailer had a definite sense of dark foreboding that the maker of the video was talking about. Morrigan says at the end "will you stand against the darkness or lead this world to its bitter end?" That gave you a real sense of impending doom that to be honest the game never equalled. The worst part was after you had been to the Arbor Wilds and everyone was talking of what they were going to do next as though defeating Corypheus was a done deal. It took all the suspense out of what followed, particularly as they had already "spoilered" the intervention of your own dragon ally in the final confrontation in their trailer.
For me in DAO the Battle of Denerim was a fitting climax to all my efforts in the rest of the game. It was a hard fought slog across the city against the darkspawn horde, with the added touch on my first run that I had turned down Morrigan so I thought I was fighting my way to my doom. Everything built to that final confrontation with the arch-demon and no matter who took the final dive (Alistair or me) the victory was tempered with a sense of sadness at the genuine sacrifice that someone had had to make to defeat it. That game still gave me the biggest emotional clout at the end of it of the entire series that had nothing to do with whether my LI had left me or not. And because of all the things we had witnessed during our journey, some of which were very horrific (Hespith being the highlight) you knew the sacrifice was worth it. That is what was missing from DAI.
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Post by midnight tea on Oct 12, 2017 13:32:01 GMT
Oh wow, look at that... guy on youtube. Truly, with such significant voices in the gaming or storytelling community laying it out how it is, we've been shown the error of our ways Same can be said about Biofan videos.... There was an obvious shift in tone from DAO to DAI. But please, go ahead feign ignorance just so you can continue to rebuttal It is plainly obvious that while DAI has its dark moments, it is generally a "lighter" game than the previous 2. Only nobody has brought Biofan into this, while you're trying to use the voice of a fan with some following as a crutch for your argument. And no - there was no 'obvious tone shift' from DAO to DAI, or at least theyr'e neither drastic or ones that can support your conspiracy theory about Bioware. The tone follows the theme and story of each installment, and each installment of DA happens to tell a somewhat different story with a different aim.
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Post by midnight tea on Oct 12, 2017 13:36:16 GMT
I want to drink a shot every time someone claims that inquisition isn't a dark game. If you want to drink a shot every time somebody speaks the truth, that's your prerogative I'd take a shot every time someone conflates their opinion with truth, but that'd mean I'd drown.
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Post by river82 on Oct 12, 2017 13:41:35 GMT
There was an obvious shift in tone from DAO to DAI. It is plainly obvious that while DAI has its dark moments, it is generally a "lighter" game than the previous 2. There are very many dark moments in DAI but the way it was presented may make it seem lighter but the darkness is there as much as DA2 and DAO. In DAO and DA2 our character was there for many quests or were shown and walked through the aftermath which made the impact more personal, immediate and emotional. For instance Ostagar battle when Duncan and Cailan died, we watched that happen, the Dailish elves we watched while the Keeper was showing and telling us what happened. First Sacrifice in, Act of Mercy, Magisters Orders in DA2. I'd like to see a return to that, or a mix of both. 2 examples in DAI is the Corruption of Sahrnia and the Blackwall deception. Both are excellent and dark, sad, emotional. But Blackwall we find out from Cole first instead of talking to Blackwall or having a quest such as Adamant and having one of the Wardens call him out "hey your not Blackwall I know him" or meeting a former soldier in his unit and being called out. That would have made an emotional impact and make my character be involved. Sahrnia is incredibly dark and sad but the the emotional connection is lost by the design of the quest which left the character removed emotionally from the event and its aftermath. Oh, I'll point out I love DAI and still playing it. You've accurately described one of the ways in which Inquisition isn't as dark as its predecessors. It doesn't matter whether the world itself has dark things going on, it matters what and how this is presented to the reader. Dark stories may not necessarily take place in darker worlds than our own but an atmosphere is built through what is shown to the audience that builds a dark atmosphere. It doesn't matter that there are "dark moments" in Inquisition if those moments are glossed over and not examined in detail. In Origins those moments are shown and detailed far more than in Inquisition and that's one of the ways Origin managed to present a darker atmosphere. Spot on
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Post by Zatche on Oct 12, 2017 13:59:34 GMT
Zatche's comment is about atmosphere, not sex. Your post is another example of why a new thread should be made for discussing atmosphere. But the brothel is part of sex and nudity in a mature game. But some are arguing that the brothels add to the atmosphere and that DAI's lack of brothel is indicative of a lighter tone. I'm arguing this is is silly, because the brothels in DAO/DA2 are jokey. If your argument is that you want your character to have more sex, then I appreciate the honesty. And if you want more nude scenes, I'll point out the brothels don't have any. DAI does.
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Post by Gwydden on Oct 12, 2017 14:06:56 GMT
Tone and mood definitely shift from game to game, but that is hardly a Dragon Age only thing. Mass Effect has the same problem, if you want to call it that. Even The Series which Shall Not Be Named has some pretty significant tonal shifts throughout. Making games is a long and expensive process which involves many people, and many changes in the service of gameplay and other practical matters.
I am somewhat of a Romantic myself, so I do miss the moodiness and melancholy of Origins. Just seeing the main menu and listening to the theme song makes me want to play the game again. Even so, I dislike to describe its tone as "dark" because that word has been co-opted by the whole grimdark movement in fantasy, which as I believe I've said elsewhere strikes me as so much adolescent posturing.
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Post by majesticjazz on Oct 12, 2017 15:07:37 GMT
It is plainly obvious that while DAI has its dark moments, it is generally a "lighter" game than the previous 2. People already know that. Ummm.....not really. The push back in this thread is a prime example. Not just DAI, but MEA as well. Both MEA and DAI feature protagonists who the player cannot make evil/brutal/renegade like past Bioware games. Both Ryder and the IQ seems to have limits on how...."renegade" they can be but the sky is the limit for how "paragon" they can be. When you compare how brutal or renegade Shepard, Hawke, and The Warden could be, you will see just how tame the IQ and Ryder are. Dont get me wrong, both Ryder and the IQ had their fair share of dark/renegade moments, again, when compared to theie previous counterparts, there is an apparent limit on just how far you can take them. There are many theories as to why this is and I have my own theory, but until Bioware comes out and addresses this or has some employee confirm something, all we have is speculation.
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Post by auu on Oct 12, 2017 15:13:36 GMT
Anyone else remember the marketing for DAO and how Bioware was all about the blooood? The big puddles of blood. No serious. Every article I remember reading, previewing the game, talked about how NPCs would react to you differently if you were bathed in blood from a previous encounter. What happened to that? I'd say Dragon Age Origins was a pretty dark fantasy for those young enough to have played it when it first came out and hadn't experience anything like it before. It could be about the sex, the general mood, the blooooood in the game, but I'm thinking it was more than that. I was going to compare it to the LotR movies by arguing that LotR isn't dark, but I'd say the LotR has dark themes, they're just different. LotR was a baseline for a lot of us. It was a PG13 affair. It had violence and a somber mood because war, but sex was never explored and violence was always treated as almost IMPERSONAL and necessity of war to conquer evil. I'm sure someone who has thought about LotR a lot more than I have will type a half page response how I got the series all wrong. Save your keystrokes. I can't say I'm interested and I read a few articles at one point of another about Tolkien experience in WWI and how it inspired his fantasy world. Again the important part of all this is that the LotR movies acted as a baseline for us yungings expectations of fantasy, so when we booted up Dragon Age Origins and we experienced the dark PERSONAL themes of the game it surprised us, which is why we associate it with it being DARK fantasy. Is it juvenile? Sure. Somewhat. Sex is there. Sex isn't in LotR. Brothels are there. No brothels in LotR (that I know of). Characters walk around covered in blood, I don't remember blood in LotR besides maybe a mouth trickle, most of it was black gloop. There is disease in Dragon Age Origins, where you can be infected and killed by coming into contact with Dark Spawn blood, I don't recall anything wide spreading in LotR. And then there is player choice. You can be a total asshole. You can make decisions that go against the hero trope that has been beaten into our brains (those who grew up watching LotR) through swaths of media. You can let an elf get raped, you can let a slaver keep a bunch of slaves, you can betray your companions, you can decide not to save villagers from a demon attack, you can let a demon posses children. Those are some personal DARK themes that you can't find LotR or most fantasy literature centered around playing to the goody-goody tropes. To make it clear I'm not arguing why Dragon Age Origins is better than LotR. And likewise you can't really make those decisions in Inquisition or DAII. Sure. They have dark themes, like LotR, but not PERSONAL dark themes. So that's why I think some of us associate Dragon Age Origins as dark fantasy because when we first played it, we were comparing it to LotR. And yeah. I'm older now. I've read some pretty abbhorrent dark fantasy that makes Dragon Age Origins look like puppies and blueberry pie. I guess it's an important note that "dark fantasy" can be somewhat subjective when considering an individual's experience. FINALLY. It's kind of a letdown that there won't be brothels in DA4. NotthatIwouldeverdouseoneinavideogamebecauseihavestandardsands It stands as just another warning that the game will lack some of those more polarizing choices that were in DAO that made the game such a fun RPing experience.
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Post by naughtynomad on Oct 12, 2017 15:43:35 GMT
If you want to drink a shot every time somebody speaks the truth, that's your prerogative I'd take a shot every time someone conflates their opinion with truth, but that'd mean I'd drown. That's probably true, because that's what you literally do every time you post.
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Post by hero11n7 on Oct 12, 2017 15:46:59 GMT
I'd take a shot every time someone conflates their opinion with truth, but that'd mean I'd drown. That's probably true, because that's what you literally do every time you post. pot, meet kettle.
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Post by krighaur on Oct 12, 2017 15:50:58 GMT
Strange world where a game is good if : - It includes a brothel - It has renegade choice - It has dark moments Don't you think you are cutting hair in four ? What will be the next indication that the last Bioware game were bad ? The NPC women have no cleavage, or the male can't rape, or they don't include a toilet or XXX (next Bioware hero) can't pee as far as Shep, or he has a smaller sex, or smaller boobs ?
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Post by auu on Oct 12, 2017 16:17:57 GMT
Strange world where a game is good if : - It includes a brothel - It has renegade choice - It has dark moments Don't you think you are cutting hair in four ? What will be the next indication that the last Bioware game were bad ? The NPC women have no cleavage, or the male can't rape, or they don't include a toilet or XXX (next Bioware hero) can't pee as far as Shep, or he has a smaller sex, or smaller boobs ? Is this in response to me?
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Post by Kappa Neko on Oct 12, 2017 16:22:53 GMT
It is not just the fact they could be slave brothels. They could be ordinary ones and it could still be an awful existence for those who work in them. Dorian makes a big issue of how it is better to be a house slave in Tevinter than living free in the slums. Since Alexius originally rescued him from a brothel in the elven slums he actually does have some idea of what those condition are like. So, particularly if we are going to be forced into defending the status quo (as happened in DAI) instead of radically challenging it, we at least need to see and appreciate why Dorian may have had some justification for his views. If the elven slums have "houses of ill repute" then even if we can't go inside them, they at least need to make it clear they are there and workers may be propositioning you on the street or advertising their wares in the window or something like that, to immerse you in the setting. That is just part of the overall setting for Tevinter though and has nothing to do with whether the game is "dark" or not. The principle indicator that DAI became less "dark" overall in its development can be seen if you compare the first ever trailer in 2013 (and the alpha playthrough) with later trailers and what we ultimately received. That first trailer had a definite sense of dark foreboding that the maker of the video was talking about. Morrigan says at the end "will you stand against the darkness or lead this world to its bitter end?" That gave you a real sense of impending doom that to be honest the game never equalled. The worst part was after you had been to the Arbor Wilds and everyone was talking of what they were going to do next as though defeating Corypheus was a done deal. It took all the suspense out of what followed, particularly as they had already "spoilered" the intervention of your own dragon ally in the final confrontation in their trailer. For me in DAO the Battle of Denerim was a fitting climax to all my efforts in the rest of the game. It was a hard fought slog across the city against the darkspawn horde, with the added touch on my first run that I had turned down Morrigan so I thought I was fighting my way to my doom. Everything built to that final confrontation with the arch-demon and no matter who took the final dive (Alistair or me) the victory was tempered with a sense of sadness at the genuine sacrifice that someone had had to make to defeat it. That game still gave me the biggest emotional clout at the end of it of the entire series that had nothing to do with whether my LI had left me or not. And because of all the things we had witnessed during our journey, some of which were very horrific (Hespith being the highlight) you knew the sacrifice was worth it. That is what was missing from DAI. This. Well said. IF DA4 features at least one fairly big and detailed city, it makes only sense that one establishment among many others like regular taverns, blacksmiths and so on would be a brothel. Because that's just one more immersive thing that a believable city has. Especially if we're going to Tevinter and hopefully get to experience its capital. It adds to the immersion. What kind of quests or atmosphere are tied to it is beside the point right now. A brothel is not an indicator of how dark a setting is but the topic has implications for the reason of its omission. The question is why Bioware would decide not to have one in DA4. DAI had no real cities in the first place so I couldn't care less. But IF Bioware were to recreate an entire city with all kinds of shops but exclude a brothel because somebody might be offended by its presentation, that would suck. But it wouldn't really surprise me anymore tbh. The other thing that you touch upon is the importance of sacrifice in storytelling. Every great story is about loss and sacrifice. And this might be one of the reasons why DAI seems not as dark. Unless I completely forgot something vital to the plot (I haven't replayed since release) there is little to no sacrifice required to defeat Corypheus. Not from the protagonist, companions or important NPCs anyway. I have the same issue only a hundred times magnified with MEA. I too found the ending of DAO to be one of the most devastating I ever played because Alistair sacrificed himself for my elf mage he loved. I sat there slack-jawed. It was supposed to be my warden who takes the fall! I was prepared for that but not sweet Alistair... Yeah yeah I should have seen this coming. But somehow I didn't. Even if you do the ritual (a highly morally gray choice), somebody does die in any case. Just not somebody you care about. But it's not an effortless victory. The worst thing that happened in DAI is a scary glowing hand that the inquisitor loses in the DLC. Sure this sucks. But it doesn't even compare to what the wardens went through. Or Hawke for that matter. There is ZERO drama in the Corypheus fight even though there could have been since Morrigan potentially fights his lyrium dragon. Don't get me wrong, I liked DAI a lot. The game is for the most part appropriately serious and dramatic and does have very emotional moments. One such being an elf inquisitor learning the true meaning of her face markings. The game has a number of really well scripted emotionally impactful scenes. But few have to do with actual sacrifice. Part of the problem with that is the lack of back-story for the inquisitor who just comes along and saves the day almost effortless. No terrifying initiation ritual. No family that dies on screen. No mandatory companion death. Just this "really terrifying" anchor. Heck, even Ryder loses their dad at least. The inquisitor has no past whatsoever. No real suffering goes along with the role of inquisitor compared to previous games. Imo a true hero has to suffer or it doesn't feel "real". I didn't feel like DAI portrayed this properly. Many terrifying things happen but they don't have grave consequences. It's not THAT big a deal in DAI. MEA is a complete failure in that respect to me. But that has been argued to death already. DAI did FINE overall. Just trying to add to the theory as to why DAI seemed less dark even when on paper the plot was pretty dark.
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Post by krighaur on Oct 12, 2017 16:36:15 GMT
Strange world where a game is good if : - It includes a brothel - It has renegade choice - It has dark moments Don't you think you are cutting hair in four ? What will be the next indication that the last Bioware game were bad ? The NPC women have no cleavage, or the male can't rape, or they don't include a toilet or XXX (next Bioware hero) can't pee as far as Shep, or he has a smaller sex, or smaller boobs ? Is this in response to me? If it was specifically you, I would have quoted you ... it's directed at all 'pseudo' Bioware fans who search every tiny bits they can find to tell ad libidum how bad Bioware's games are. It's boring and tiring, and prevent all serious discussions about the game.
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Post by alanc9 on Oct 12, 2017 16:43:16 GMT
The principle indicator that DAI became less "dark" overall in its development can be seen if you compare the first ever trailer in 2013 (and the alpha playthrough) with later trailers and what we ultimately received. That first trailer had a definite sense of dark foreboding that the maker of the video was talking about. Morrigan says at the end "will you stand against the darkness or lead this world to its bitter end?" That gave you a real sense of impending doom that to be honest the game never equalled. I don't think this argument can prove what you think it proves. By the time that trailer was released DAI would have already in feature lock, based on the schedule before multiple PC races were added. All I think you've got there is a game/marketing mismatch. What was bad about that? Cory did look like he was on the ropes at that point, didn't he?
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Post by naughtynomad on Oct 12, 2017 16:50:13 GMT
Is this in response to me? If it was specifically you, I would have quoted you ... it's directed at all 'pseudo' Bioware fans who search every tiny bits they can find to tell ad libidum how bad Bioware's games are. It's boring and tiring, and prevent all serious discussions about the game. Assuming this is directed at me and others who voice criticism of franchises we enjoy. What you should try to understand is that blind fanatacism is not healthy for anyone. Any artist or writer out there will tell you they welcome criticism because it pushes them to make better works and not fall into routines. Fanboyism is actually more annoying to them than people who voice logical criticism. I like the Dragon Age franchise for the world building you can do across the series. That is why I continue to play it. But I'm not such a sucker for it that I can't see the flaws and demand better from the people I'm supporting financially. It is becuase I enjoy the series that I want it to do better. So you might consider that before you reach for your jar of fanatical loyalty.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Oct 12, 2017 16:53:04 GMT
What was bad about that? Cory did look like he was on the ropes at that point, didn't he? Yeah. If anything them doing that was to give them extra motivation to see this final fight through. We see similar things in plenty of other media, including other Bioware games including the dark ones.
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Post by midnight tea on Oct 12, 2017 17:15:58 GMT
IF DA4 features at least one fairly big and detailed city, it makes only sense that one establishment among many others like regular taverns, blacksmiths and so on would be a brothel. Because that's just one more immersive thing that a believable city has. Especially if we're going to Tevinter and hopefully get to experience its capital. It adds to the immersion. What kind of quests or atmosphere are tied to it is beside the point right now. A brothel is not an indicator of how dark a setting is but the topic has implications for the reason of its omission. We don't even know whether DA4 will feature a city, much less whether we'll see all of it (Minrathous is the biggest city on Thedas with a million people living there. Even if they do some scaling trickery, it's unlikely we're going to see all of it), so why are we even discussing 'reasons for it omission'? We don't even know why or what is going to be omitted or implemented yet, and the reasons for it could be story-related. We are, after all, gearing towards travelling to an already unstable Imperium with Qunari invasion looming on the horizon and who knows what else. The whole theme of Inquisition was how much we sacrifice when we're trying to rouse people around an organization that is the last hope of restoring order. This isn't just about easily understandable personal sacrifices on the battlefield, but sacrifice of identity, principles, lives of people we lead and - eventually or potentially - loss of direction, and ultimately - Inquisitor laying everything he/she has to try and save the world, actually saving it, only the world to start forgetting their contributions in meager years. ... ah yes, the 'scary glowing hand' that has enabled Inquisitor attain their illustrious position in the first place. Never mind that it's about so much more than this. The whole DLC was about way more than this. Yes, no terrifying events at all. It's not like they survived devastating explosion that has wiped all of the Conclave, coincidentally obtained unknown power that is eating them from inside, only to have it symbolically erase everything else they ever were before, yanked at the position of power and hoisted a ginormous responsibility on their back, where they didn't even know where and how to start fixing that mess, because Thedas has never experienced stuff like this before. And all that while knowing, 100%, that if they fail at any step of the way, Corypheus may not yet become god, but will destroy the world nonetheless, while people are expecting for them to sacrifice everything they are, even though they didn't, ultimately, were even given any opportunity to choose, go through any ritual or swear an oath. And after that, when they managed to actually save the world, the world just keeps demanding more of them, while at the same time robbing them of their power, their hand, their position and put in the situation that they have to scramble to save the world... again.
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Post by smilesja on Oct 12, 2017 17:20:50 GMT
The brothels weren’t really that controversial at all.
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midnight tea
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Post by midnight tea on Oct 12, 2017 17:36:56 GMT
The brothels weren’t really that controversial at all. I don't see how they would be. Bioware doesn't seem to be against sex workers or sex in general. But with all the talk about 'darkness' and 'adult themes' I think some people forgot that brothels in DAI and DA2 were there mostly for not-really-dark reasons... so it baffles me why some people link potential lack of brothels with BW avoiding telling us how awful Tevinter is? I mean, if Bioware "goes back to its roots" and includes a brothel and does it in a way they did in previous games, one would expect that it's not going to be a place where we go to 'explore darker aspects of Tevinter', but where we can have Bioware poking fun at us.
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