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Post by smilesja on Oct 15, 2017 2:03:07 GMT
Does anyone any proof of Bioware going PC? Nope no evidence. But can you explain to me why they are taking out brothels in a series where they were already present, horribly depicting trans people in their games by having these characters basically exclaim they are trans like it has to be known (news flash: Trans people don't run around telling everyone their story about being trans. They are people like everyone else. Nothing special about them.), or getting rid of the original concept of the desire demon whom was a provocative female form? It's obvious they are either A: trying not to offend players; I.e. pandering. Or B: Pushing an agenda. So please explain to me what's going on. That there was no need for a Desire Demon in this game?
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Post by river82 on Oct 15, 2017 2:03:30 GMT
At this point this is bending over backwards to give this thing a negative spin. The writer has already explained it wasn't the fear of the rape per se, but that it wasn't intended to be a rape scene in the first place. So if there was fear, it was there only in a sense that they were afraid to do a sh*tty job at conveying the intent, or not creating a scenario which they wouldn't be able to properly address in the game. Seriously, people really need to stop (selectively) treating peer reviews or revisions like it's an interference, or that if creator modifies the work according to feedback it means that he/she chickens out. As professional artist who has her works reviewed on professional and personal level I can only shake my head at this. It's ultimately my decision to ask and listen to feedback and any revision I choose to implement based on feedback has little to do with 'lacking the courage', especially if it turns out that I borked something, but due to limited perspective, art-block, lack of time or just sheer creative fatigue I just don't see it until someone points this out to me (virtually every creator will tell you that this happens to them fairly frequently, I guarantee it to you). Given all that, silly accusations like the one above, merely comes across as thinly veiled passive aggressiveness. The writer never explained it wasn't fear of rape, but otherwise this is exactly my point. He never set out to write a "rape scene". and when it was explained to him that it was he changed the content because he didn't want to write rape. His entire intent (as far as he stated) was not to write rape. He didn't change the content because the content was nasty, but rather he didn't want that label on his work. This is fear of the word rape, nothing you have said has changed that. I never said if a writer (or artist) changes his work that he chickened out, I said if a writer changed his work because of the label attached to it then he chickened out. And I stand by that 100%, if you, as a writer or an artist, change your work because it was labelled a certain way, then you were scared. As a professional writer beholden to a studio or a publisher there is feedback they very much DO have to listen to, remembering of course that writers are at the very BOTTOM of the totem pole in game design, and if you don't it's your arse. But that depends on who's giving the feedback of course.
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Post by alanc9 on Oct 15, 2017 2:08:04 GMT
Because doing it any other way would simply fail. The scene can't work if the dream conversation doesn't work like every other Solas conversation; the player would know something was up. Put another way, why should you know something your Inquisitor doesn't?
You mean like the entirety of Trespasser? No, I don't like that. In this case though, the opposite is true: my Inquisitor knows something I, the player, don't....namely that he/she at some point (apparently while I had them walking around talking to other people) went upstairs to get some shuteye. And yet, Inq still makes the comment of "wow, they really did a number with this place" the first time the player uses the stairs. Why make that comment if they've already been that way?
As I've said before, the way it's implemented just isn't good. And no, midnight tea, it isn't because I didn't "get" it. I just don't think much of it.
(The ironic thing is, in my first PT, cutscene was the only way I could get upstairs since the location wouldn't load properly if I tried to get there manually; new video card fixed that)
I don't see what you're asking for. Surely your Inquisitors sleep at some point in their lives. How would you start the scene in a way that wouldn't immediately tell the player that it was likely a dream?
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Post by 10k on Oct 15, 2017 2:11:07 GMT
Nope no evidence. But can you explain to me why they are taking out brothels in a series where they were already present, horribly depicting trans people in their games by having these characters basically exclaim they are trans like it has to be known (news flash: Trans people don't run around telling everyone their story about being trans. They are people like everyone else. Nothing special about them.), or getting rid of the original concept of the desire demon whom was a provocative female form? It's obvious they are either A: trying not to offend players; I.e. pandering. Or B: Pushing an agenda. So please explain to me what's going on. That there was no need for a Desire Demon in this game? If there was no need why did Inquisition have a desire demon; Imshael? Also what about my other questions?
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Post by alanc9 on Oct 15, 2017 2:17:25 GMT
The writer never explained it wasn't fear of rape, but otherwise this is exactly my point. He never set out to write a "rape scene". and when it was explained to him that it was he changed the content because he didn't want to write rape. His entire intent (as far as he stated) was not to write rape. He didn't change the content because the content was nasty, but rather he didn't want that label on his work. This is fear of the word rape, nothing you have said has changed that. This is seriously confused. The problem is that people were perceiving the content as rape. Labels don't change that; they came up with that reading before the label came along. That's why they put the rape label on the content.
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Post by river82 on Oct 15, 2017 2:22:07 GMT
The writer never explained it wasn't fear of rape, but otherwise this is exactly my point. He never set out to write a "rape scene". and when it was explained to him that it was he changed the content because he didn't want to write rape. His entire intent (as far as he stated) was not to write rape. He didn't change the content because the content was nasty, but rather he didn't want that label on his work. This is fear of the word rape, nothing you have said has changed that. This is seriously confused. The problem is that people were perceiving the content as rape. Labels don't change that; they came up with that reading without seeing the label. That's why they put the rape label on the content. The bolded part is the important bit. People have this tendency to take a complex situation and compartmentalise it down to a 1 word label, makes things easier to file away because of it. The problem is that those words tend to have feelings, emotions, connotations attached to it that may be undesirable for you. So when someone creates a piece of content they are happy with, and others (because of people's tendency to take complex situations and attaching 1 word labels to it) labels it with something undesirable to you, and you change your work because of how it's being labelled and not because of the content, that is everything I've mentioned above. If they had a problem with the content then they would have addressed the content, instead the explanation only addressed the label attached to it. Big giveaway IMO
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Post by alanc9 on Oct 15, 2017 2:26:36 GMT
Does anyone any proof of Bioware going PC? Nope no evidence. But can you explain to me why they are taking out brothels in a series where they were already present, "Taking out" is a silly way to phrase this. No brothel ever existed in DAI to take out. Should DAI have had one added? If so, why?
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Post by alanc9 on Oct 15, 2017 2:33:06 GMT
This is seriously confused. The problem is that people were perceiving the content as rape. Labels don't change that; they came up with that reading without seeing the label. That's why they put the rape label on the content. The bolded part is the important bit. People have this tendency to take a complex situation and compartmentalise it down to a 1 word label, makes things easier to file away because of it. The problem is that those words tend to have feelings, emotions, connotations attached to it that may be undesirable for you. So when someone creates a piece of content they are happy with, and others (because of people's tendency to take complex situations and attaching 1 word labels to it) labels it with something undesirable to you, and you change your work because of how it's being labelled and not because of the content, that is everything I've mentioned above. If they had a problem with the content then they would have addressed the content, instead the explanation only addressed the label attached to it. Big giveaway IMO Do labels control your thinking too? Or is this something that only happens to other people? It's also just a little bit presumptuous to assume that your reaction is correct and the other reactions are not. Anyway, what are you saying should have happened? The content, as written, didn't work. Firing the audience and appointing a new one isn't practical.
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Post by river82 on Oct 15, 2017 2:37:54 GMT
The bolded part is the important bit. People have this tendency to take a complex situation and compartmentalise it down to a 1 word label, makes things easier to file away because of it. The problem is that those words tend to have feelings, emotions, connotations attached to it that may be undesirable for you. So when someone creates a piece of content they are happy with, and others (because of people's tendency to take complex situations and attaching 1 word labels to it) labels it with something undesirable to you, and you change your work because of how it's being labelled and not because of the content, that is everything I've mentioned above. If they had a problem with the content then they would have addressed the content, instead the explanation only addressed the label attached to it. Big giveaway IMO Do labels control your thinking too? Or is this something that only happens to other people? It's also just a little bit presumptuous to assume that your reaction is correct and the other reactions are not. Anyway, what are you saying should have happened? The content, as written, didn't work. Once again, show me where they said the "content didn't work". You're also getting confused. Explain to me how labels control my thinking. Also explain to me how I assumed my reaction is correct and others' are not, others' haven't assumed their reaction is correct mine is not, and exactly why this isn't a standard you've pulled out of your arse to attach solely to me.
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Post by 10k on Oct 15, 2017 2:39:18 GMT
Nope no evidence. But can you explain to me why they are taking out brothels in a series where they were already present, "Taking out" is a silly way to phrase this. No brothel ever existed in DAI to take out. Should DAI have had one added? If so, why? Sure there were no brothels in Inquisition but there were in the previous games The Pearl and The Blooming Rose. So BW did remove them, it all started with Inquisition. Which is the one game in the series that is held for being PC.
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Post by river82 on Oct 15, 2017 2:41:46 GMT
The bolded part is the important bit. People have this tendency to take a complex situation and compartmentalise it down to a 1 word label, makes things easier to file away because of it. The problem is that those words tend to have feelings, emotions, connotations attached to it that may be undesirable for you. So when someone creates a piece of content they are happy with, and others (because of people's tendency to take complex situations and attaching 1 word labels to it) labels it with something undesirable to you, and you change your work because of how it's being labelled and not because of the content, that is everything I've mentioned above. If they had a problem with the content then they would have addressed the content, instead the explanation only addressed the label attached to it. Big giveaway IMO Do labels control your thinking too? Or is this something that only happens to other people? "The tendency to classify and categorize objects is a deeply ingrained aspect of human nature. In many cases, this is a good thing. Without this ability, we'd quickly get overwhelmed in every new encounter. Nevertheless, this fundamental skill can also be extremely damaging, especially when it comes to categorizing people. As Ronit Baras puts it, we can all too easily get "trapped by labels"." www.psychologytoday.com/blog/beautiful-minds/201210/the-pesky-persistence-labelsPS: It's psychology 101
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Post by midnight tea on Oct 15, 2017 2:55:35 GMT
At this point this is bending over backwards to give this thing a negative spin. The writer has already explained it wasn't the fear of the rape per se, but that it wasn't intended to be a rape scene in the first place. So if there was fear, it was there only in a sense that they were afraid to do a sh*tty job at conveying the intent, or not creating a scenario which they wouldn't be able to properly address in the game. Seriously, people really need to stop (selectively) treating peer reviews or revisions like it's an interference, or that if creator modifies the work according to feedback it means that he/she chickens out. As professional artist who has her works reviewed on professional and personal level I can only shake my head at this. It's ultimately my decision to ask and listen to feedback and any revision I choose to implement based on feedback has little to do with 'lacking the courage', especially if it turns out that I borked something, but due to limited perspective, art-block, lack of time or just sheer creative fatigue I just don't see it until someone points this out to me (virtually every creator will tell you that this happens to them fairly frequently, I guarantee it to you). Given all that, silly accusations like the one above, merely comes across as thinly veiled passive aggressiveness. The writer never explained it wasn't fear of rape, but otherwise this is exactly my point. He never set out to write a "rape scene". and when it was explained to him that it was he changed the content because he didn't want to write rape. His entire intent (as far as he stated) was not to write rape. He didn't change the content because the content was nasty, but rather he didn't want that label on his work. This is fear of the word rape, nothing you have said has changed that. No, this is - yet again - completely bending over backwards trying to prove a point that just falls apart the second you look at it. They were talking about very specific scenario where a very specific mini-plot didn't come across as it was intended to illustrate that diversity of points of views let them avoid making a potentially very heavy implication that they wouldn't be able to just sweep under the rug or leave in the game unaddressed - and you've just spun it as if the snowflake writer was just scared of writing or implying rape, ever. Which is just Plain. Effing. Untrue. In fact, we have a whole romance in the game in which, at the very least, the character can use Inquisitor OR Dorian and exploit their trust to serve their agenda and therefore has similar implications - the Iron Bull who wasn't made Tal-Vashoth. As a loyal Qunari he's only intimate with either Inquisitor or Dorian in order to spy and ultimately betrays their lovers with no remorse. But this isn't a thing that is easily swept under the rug, it plays a bigger role in a bigger picture and we see exactly the consequences of our actions, or lack of actions. I'm not going to mince words here, this is just...
Sorry, but it just is. You've just created a separate category for a "label" and deemed "changing because of label attached" just to try and push through a point about BW writer 'chickening out' because 'oh my, someone said it's rape!'. Labels aren't any more scary than any other feedback and if we choose to avoid or change something, be it to avoid a label, an implication, an unintended message or whatever it is, there could be thousands of reasons to do so that have very little to do with being scared. A great deal of time it means "making my work better or closer to what I want it to be" or what I actually intended for it, rather than being borked by various factors that can range from carelessness to sheer burnout. Creating things is oftentimes a messy process and mistakes are unavoidable and there's abso-effing-lutely NO reason to separate 'attaching labels' from it, other than trying to twist facts to fit a theory. In this specific case it was clearly a review made by a peer, not a case of a writer being beholden to a studio or a publisher.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Oct 15, 2017 3:03:28 GMT
That there was no need for a Desire Demon in this game? If there was no need why did Inquisition have a desire demon; Imshael? Also what about my other questions? "Oh, for... Choice! Spirit!"
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Post by midnight tea on Oct 15, 2017 3:09:32 GMT
"Taking out" is a silly way to phrase this. No brothel ever existed in DAI to take out. Should DAI have had one added? If so, why? Sure there were no brothels in Inquisition but there were in the previous games The Pearl and The Blooming Rose. So BW did remove them, it all started with Inquisition. Which is the one game in the series that is held for being PC. There were no brothels in Inquisition because unlike DAO and DA2 Inquisition didn't have an extensive city. They never "removed" brothels, because there was nowhere to put them in the first place. And no, DAI is 'not held for being PC'. A portion of gamers choose to label the game as PC, regardless of all the nudity, sex, dismemberments and whatever can be labeled as 'dark' or 'adult' or whatever - never-mind that the throwing of PC label at this point is almost Godwin's Law 2. "Oh, the game doesn't have one or two features that were never really significant from narrative or RP standpoint in the first place! It must be PC!"
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Post by river82 on Oct 15, 2017 3:20:06 GMT
The writer never explained it wasn't fear of rape, but otherwise this is exactly my point. He never set out to write a "rape scene". and when it was explained to him that it was he changed the content because he didn't want to write rape. His entire intent (as far as he stated) was not to write rape. He didn't change the content because the content was nasty, but rather he didn't want that label on his work. This is fear of the word rape, nothing you have said has changed that. No, this is - yet again - completely bending over backwards trying to prove a point that just falls apart the second you look at it. They were talking about very specific scenario where a very specific mini-plot didn't come across as it was intended to illustrate that diversity of points of views let them avoid making a potentially very heavy implication that they wouldn't be able to just sweep under the rug or leave in the game unaddressed - and you've just spun it as if the snowflake writer was just scared of writing or implying rape, ever. Which is just Plain. Effing. Untrue. In fact, we have a whole romance in the game in which, at the very least, the character can use Inquisitor OR Dorian and exploit their trust to serve their agenda and therefore has similar implications - the Iron Bull who wasn't made Tal-Vashoth. As a loyal Qunari he's only intimate with either Inquisitor or Dorian in order to spy and ultimately betrays their lovers with no remorse. But this isn't a thing that is easily swept under the rug, it plays a bigger role in a bigger picture and we see exactly the consequences of our actions, or lack of actions. I'm not going to mince words here, this is just...
Sorry, but it just is. You've just created a separate category for a "label" and deemed "changing because of label attached" just to try and push through a point about BW writer 'chickening out' because 'oh my, someone said it's rape!'. Labels aren't any more scary than any other feedback and if we choose to avoid or change something, be it to avoid a label, an implication, an unintended message or whatever it is, there could be thousands of reasons to do so that have very little to do with being scared. A great deal of time it means "making my work better or closer to what I want it to be" or what I actually intended for it, rather than being borked by various factors that can range from carelessness to sheer burnout. Creating things is oftentimes a messy process and mistakes are unavoidable and there's abso-effing-lutely NO reason to separate 'attaching labels' from it, other than trying to twist facts to fit a theory. In this specific case it was clearly a review made by a peer, not a case of a writer being beholden to a studio or a publisher. 1) It doesn’t matter that they were talking about a very specific scenario, what matters is the reason they changed it. “Didn’t come off as intended” is very vague, and is virtually worthless, the other comments about not wanting to write a rape story are far more telling. 2) The writer in question would not be the one making the determination that it would be something they couldn’t follow up on. I did not say “snowflake writer” and I did not say “scared of ever writing rape”. You’re fishing here. What I said was he lacked courage in this instance and I’ve seen nothing to suggest otherwise. I'm really not interested in how vehemently you protest that it isn't true, the facts suggest otherwise. 3) There are many writers in a game, comparing the writing of one part of a game to another to try and show how my accusations against “one writer” are untrue doesn’t work. 4) I have not created a separate category for “label”, it’s basic language used in psychology. Both you and Alanc9 have questioned this, and I’m telling you it’s common psychological knowledge. If you have no knowledge of it, it’s because of ignorance not anything to do with me. 5) Depends which label you use. Without judging one way or the other, do you want to know why there’s a movement going across America that says “there’s no such thing as reverse racism”? “Discrimination can’t be racism if against white people.” But the act is the same, right? Why bicker so much over what something is called if labels don’t have power? It has everything to do with the label because some labels have power due to the amount of emotion that gets attached to them. Claiming and reclaiming words are a thing because of the power behind words. Denying that labels have power just means you have your head in the sand. 6) Labels aren’t scary? What if your work is sexist, is that a scary label? What about misogynist, what about that label? If you don’t think labels are scary then good for you, others find them terrifying. 7) There are indeed thousands of reasons to change something. In this instance what we got was “he didn’t want to write a rape scene” even though what he wrote could clearly be construed as such. Not a problem with the content, but rather a problem of appearance and how it got labelled. 8) Indeed, a peer review. Which means there’s no excuse. He was scared.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Oct 15, 2017 3:23:36 GMT
I doubt that section of the mission was dropped just because of that. For example it would have also made the mission very repetitive, since it would have involved defeating the Envy Demon, recruiting the Templars, and going back to Haven and talking with everyone twice one right after the other.
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Post by river82 on Oct 15, 2017 3:27:35 GMT
I doubt that section of the mission was dropped just because of that. For example it would have also made the mission very repetitive, since it would have involved defeating the Envy Demon, recruiting the Templars, and going back to Haven and talking with everyone twice one right after the other. Possibly. However whether something comes off as interesting or entertaining is often more to do with "how" than "what". Anyway if that were the reason it was dropped than they should have just said so, rather than "didn't want to write a rape story", you know? Communication is important *shrugs*
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Post by 10k on Oct 15, 2017 3:37:59 GMT
Sure there were no brothels in Inquisition but there were in the previous games The Pearl and The Blooming Rose. So BW did remove them, it all started with Inquisition. Which is the one game in the series that is held for being PC. There were no brothels in Inquisition because unlike DAO and DA2 Inquisition didn't have an extensive city. They never "removed" brothels, because there was nowhere to put them in the first place. And no, DAI is 'not held for being PC'. A portion of gamers choose to label the game as PC, regardless of all the nudity, sex, dismemberments and whatever can be labeled as 'dark' or 'adult' or whatever - never-mind that the throwing of PC label at this point is almost Godwin's Law 2. "Oh, the game doesn't have one or two features that were never really significant from narrative or RP standpoint in the first place! It must be PC!" Orlais was pretty extensive could have added one there. So there was a place. A portion of gamers chose to label it PC because of many different reasons. One of the many is the terrible depiction of a trans-person, which unsurprising showed up in MEA as well, and was clearly added as a diversity tactic. Also re-writing the Qunari lore so that person could fit into the story. here's Sten relaying his views, which were ultimately the views of the Qun given how close he was to them. But since Inquisition the Qun views have changed.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Oct 15, 2017 3:43:22 GMT
They did not rewrite the Qunari lore. The Qun does not think woman can be warriors. Any woman who fights in the military is seen and sees themselves as a man. Sten's confusion stems from the female Warden fighting and yet still seeing herself as a woman. I think it was a stupid thing to add(would have preferred it being a case where The Iron Bull's two personalities mixed together in his head), but it doesn't contradict the lore or what Sten said. And really, if we are going to bring this up then the culprit is DA2 not DAI since that had Tallis as a female member of the Qun who also fights as part of the Ben-Hassrath who have male and female members.
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Post by river82 on Oct 15, 2017 3:48:16 GMT
The most disturbing thing about the Qunari continues to be how Sten has no horns. Some would call him impotent because of it, but not me because I'm nice xD
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Oct 15, 2017 3:51:08 GMT
The most disturbing thing about the Qunari continues to be how Sten has no horns. Some would call him impotent because of it, but not me because I'm nice xDIt's important, not impotent. lol Hornlessness is a rare genetic variation in Qunari, akin to red hair in humans. Those born without horns are considered special and are often given prestigious roles in Qunari society such as a Ben-Hassrath or an envoy to the other races. Sten, who became a companion of the Warden as a soldier of the Beresaad, falls into this category. Culturally, Qunari associate not having horns with being imposing or scary, and because of this Tal-Vashoth often decide to remove their own horns. Likewise, Saarebas, the Qunari mages, have their horns removed to warn of their danger.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Origin: melbella
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Post by melbella on Oct 15, 2017 4:10:51 GMT
You mean like the entirety of Trespasser? No, I don't like that. In this case though, the opposite is true: my Inquisitor knows something I, the player, don't....namely that he/she at some point (apparently while I had them walking around talking to other people) went upstairs to get some shuteye. And yet, Inq still makes the comment of "wow, they really did a number with this place" the first time the player uses the stairs. Why make that comment if they've already been that way?
As I've said before, the way it's implemented just isn't good. And no, midnight tea, it isn't because I didn't "get" it. I just don't think much of it.
(The ironic thing is, in my first PT, cutscene was the only way I could get upstairs since the location wouldn't load properly if I tried to get there manually; new video card fixed that)
I don't see what you're asking for. Surely your Inquisitors sleep at some point in their lives. How would you start the scene in a way that wouldn't immediately tell the player that it was likely a dream? I'm not sure but one thing I do know: I like how when you go talk to Iron Bull, you don't get pulled immediately into a cutscene. He says, "Hey, when you have a minute, I want to show you something," or "Let's have drinks some time." So, you can chitchat OR you can do the bonding scenes, your choice. Maybe something similar with Solas would have worked better. Or maybe make a big deal out of showing the Inquisitor their new quarters and you have the option to immediately go to sleep. Then you "wake up" and go talk to Solas and get the scenes we have in the game.
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by sageoflife on Oct 15, 2017 4:15:06 GMT
Wow. Apparently people think that writers should be forced to write rape scenes even if they want to do something else.
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Post by river82 on Oct 15, 2017 4:24:54 GMT
Wow. Apparently people think that writers should be forced to write rape scenes even if they want to do something else. Nice strawman
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sageoflife
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by sageoflife on Oct 15, 2017 4:27:49 GMT
Wow. Apparently people think that writers should be forced to write rape scenes even if they want to do something else. Nice strawman You're the one that keeps saying that the fact that Champions of the Just was rewritten is "proof" that things are becoming too "PC". So if we go by your logic, writers who don't want to write rape scenes should just be forced to do so regardless of what they intend.
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