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Post by midnight tea on Oct 14, 2017 22:34:47 GMT
Yes, but pretending to be someone else in order to have sex with you/exploit you was virtually the whole point of the Envy impersonating Leli. None of this applies to Solas, so he's not even in same 'general group'. Solas totally uses and exploits the Inquisition to get rid of Corypheus and try to get his orb back so he can enact his plan. That's the whole reason the Qun thinks the Inquisition was working with/for him in Trespasser. Apples and oranges. Solas is still NOT exploiting/using Inquisitor's romantic feelings or attraction to him or friendship in order to achieve his goals, like Envy does - all his feelings towards Inquisitor are genuine, which we have confirmation of both in the game and from Weekes. And I don't think one can easily deem him helping Inquisition as malicious or wholly exploitative - he does tell us, explicitly, that he saw Inquisition as the last hope to stop Cory and save the world (he alone was unable to do so), hence he joined Inquisition and helped it, which included giving the budding organization his own castle of great importance. Then there's, naturally, the fact that even without his plans to destroy/change the world, he wouldn't be able to approach them and be all like "oh, hi, I'm the ancient elvhen god and this dude there that exploded the Conclave? Yea, he did this because he has something of mine". That'd either land him in prison being deemed as a loon, becoming Tranquil or killed on spot. You and I both know that Solas wouldn't be able to be wholly truthful, even if he wanted to. The fact that Solas can fairly comfortably pass as only a dreamer mage apostate without anybody getting suspicious (much) is because the truth is so unbelievable.
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Post by midnight tea on Oct 14, 2017 22:39:16 GMT
I don't know where you're getting "scared" from. The writer was not said to have been scared of anything, except perhaps almost releasing an incompetently written scene that wouldn't produce the intended effect in a significant portion of the audience. The point of the peer review was that the scene didn't work.Another thing that I think should also be noted is that there's also a world of difference between someone getting tricked and someone getting tricked and raped. The latter requires significantly more follow-up than the former because otherwise the character has a very atypical, to say the least reaction, to what they've suffered. o You'd have to repeatedly provide the player options on how their character would deal with this because unlike if the character had merely been tricked by Envy and nothing more, you can't just provide one or two lines after the fact. o The alternative is to write a streamlined follow-up and provide mandatory scenes like Shepard's dream sequences which might, amongst other things, clash with how some players have roleplayed their characters. Leaving the trauma unmentioned as a way of the character supposedly suppressing the trauma would be a poor streamline solution since it could easily be seen as shoving the whole thing off-screen like it never happened and making the whole rape unnecessary because there'd be no lasting impact. Yea, it's true. We'd have another "Lavellan just lost her whole clan, why is nobody reacting to this!?" moment.
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Post by LogicGunn on Oct 14, 2017 22:40:10 GMT
Solas totally uses and exploits the Inquisition to get rid of Corypheus and try to get his orb back so he can enact his plan. That's the whole reason the Qun thinks the Inquisition was working with/for him in Trespasser. Apples and oranges. Solas is still NOT exploiting/using Inquisitor's romantic feelings or attraction to him or friendship in order to achieve his goals, like Envy does - all his feelings towards Inquisitor are genuine, which we have confirmation of both in the game and from Weekes. And I don't think one can easily deem him helping Inquisition as malicious or wholly exploitative - he does tell us, explicitly, that he saw Inquisition as the last hope to stop Cory and save the world (he alone was unable to do so), hence he joined Inquisition and helped it, which included giving the budding organization his own castle of great importance. Then there's, naturally, the fact that even without his plans to destroy/change the world, he wouldn't be able to approach them and be all like "oh, hi, I'm the ancient elvhen god and this dude there that exploded the Conclave? Yea, he did this because he has something of mine". That'd either land him in prison being deemed as a loon, becoming Tranquil or killed on spot. You and I both know that Solas wouldn't be able to be wholly truthful, even if he wanted to. The fact that Solas can fairly comfortably pass as only a dreamer mage apostate without anybody getting suspicious (much) is because the truth is so unbelievable. I always felt like Solas joined the Inquisition to try to clean up his mistake, and becomes friends (or rivals or lovers or whatever) with the Inquisitor because he joined but not to further an agenda. I'm not a huge Solas romance fan, actually not a huge Solas fan in general, but I thought he was sincere when he said he didn't want to get her tangled up in his nonsense, and his regrets at the end of Trespasser regardless of romance.
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Post by midnight tea on Oct 14, 2017 22:49:04 GMT
How do you know that your Inquisitor hadn't fallen asleep and then talked to Solas? Are you always conscious that you're dreaming when you're dreaming? No, but I do know when I go to bed. You can't even get to the Inquisitor's bedroom before that scene (unless you first leave and come back to Skyhold) so unless talking with everyone else at Skyhold was also while asleep, I don't see how going to talk to Solas should be observed to be anything different.
The only difference is later. This is why I leave talking to him for last during that first round at Skyhold. It doesn't make sense that I would talk to char's A/B/C, go to bed, talk to Solas while believing I'm still awake only to find out - whoops, you're asleep in your very own bed you don't remember going to (because you didn't) - then go talk to D/E/F who are all still standing around the courtyard wondering wtf do we do know? They really spent the whole night there just because I haven't talked to them yet?
Suffice to say, I don't like my char being hijacked like that. Which was kind of the point of my comparison between the deleted/reworked scene and Solas' Fade Haven. We get hijacked and only find out about it later. When you dream are you even aware you went to bed? Did you never have a dream when you woke up and was convinced it was part of reality and don't even remember going to sleep, at least for a solid moment? Because I do, sometimes. I'm fairly sure that's what they wanted to convey - confusion and being caught by surprise that we were actually dreaming, as much as Solas was surprised that we've found him. But I can agree that the execution of it ain't exactly successful, considering how many people have missed it; it'd probably be better if we got a short cutscene when we approach Solas in the rotunda and something in the environment already felt off. But I wouldn't be surprised if it hadn't been done because resources and all. Either way, it is what it is. We come to Solas, not he to us.
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Post by alanc9 on Oct 15, 2017 0:04:29 GMT
How do you know that your Inquisitor hadn't fallen asleep and then talked to Solas? Are you always conscious that you're dreaming when you're dreaming? No, but I do know when I go to bed. You can't even get to the Inquisitor's bedroom before that scene (unless you first leave and come back to Skyhold) so unless talking with everyone else at Skyhold was also while asleep, I don't see how going to talk to Solas should be observed to be anything different.
Because doing it any other way would simply fail. The scene can't work if the dream conversation doesn't work like every other Solas conversation; the player would know something was up. Put another way, why should you know something your Inquisitor doesn't?
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Post by melbella on Oct 15, 2017 0:36:22 GMT
No, but I do know when I go to bed. You can't even get to the Inquisitor's bedroom before that scene (unless you first leave and come back to Skyhold) so unless talking with everyone else at Skyhold was also while asleep, I don't see how going to talk to Solas should be observed to be anything different.
Because doing it any other way would simply fail. The scene can't work if the dream conversation doesn't work like every other Solas conversation; the player would know something was up. Put another way, why should you know something your Inquisitor doesn't?
You mean like the entirety of Trespasser? No, I don't like that. In this case though, the opposite is true: my Inquisitor knows something I, the player, don't....namely that he/she at some point (apparently while I had them walking around talking to other people) went upstairs to get some shuteye. And yet, Inq still makes the comment of "wow, they really did a number with this place" the first time the player uses the stairs. Why make that comment if they've already been that way?
As I've said before, the way it's implemented just isn't good. And no, midnight tea, it isn't because I didn't "get" it. I just don't think much of it.
(The ironic thing is, in my first PT, cutscene was the only way I could get upstairs since the location wouldn't load properly if I tried to get there manually; new video card fixed that)
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Post by river82 on Oct 15, 2017 0:42:58 GMT
I don't know where you're getting "scared" from. The writer was not said to have been scared of anything, except perhaps almost releasing an incompetently written scene that wouldn't produce the intended effect in a significant portion of the audience. The point of the peer review was that the scene didn't work.At no point in the accounts of what went down did they say the scene "didn't work". In fact point me to where they said the scene was cut because "it didn't work". He had no problem with the content of the scene, if things went down as people say they did. He had a problem with "writing a rape story". If you're fine with certain content but baulk at what it's called, that's called being fearful of a word.
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Post by river82 on Oct 15, 2017 0:55:21 GMT
Another thing that I think should also be noted is that there's also a world of difference between how someone would react to getting tricked and how someone would react to getting tricked and raped. The latter requires significantly more follow-up than the former because otherwise the character has a very atypical, to say the least. reaction to what they've suffered. o You'd have to repeatedly provide the player options on how their character would deal with this because unlike if the character had merely been tricked by Envy and nothing more, you can't just provide one or two lines after the fact. o The alternative is to write a streamlined follow-up and provide mandatory scenes like Shepard's dream sequences which might, amongst other things, clash with how some players have roleplayed their characters. Leaving the trauma unmentioned as a way of the character supposedly suppressing the trauma would be a poor streamline solution since it could easily be seen as shoving the whole thing off-screen like it never happened and making the whole rape unnecessary because there'd be no lasting impact. Consequences to actions, a staple of storytelling. It would be swell if Bioware would include some ...
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Post by midnight tea on Oct 15, 2017 0:57:19 GMT
Because doing it any other way would simply fail. The scene can't work if the dream conversation doesn't work like every other Solas conversation; the player would know something was up. Put another way, why should you know something your Inquisitor doesn't? You mean like the entirety of Trespasser? No, I don't like that. In this case though, the opposite is true: my Inquisitor knows something I, the player, don't....namely that he/she at some point (apparently while I had them walking around talking to other people) went upstairs to get some shuteye. And yet, Inq still makes the comment of "wow, they really did a number with this place" the first time the player uses the stairs. Why make that comment if they've already been that way? If waking up after Fade scene with Solas is the first time a player can be there, then it's good enough reason for them to either not design it or switch the design so Inquisitor doesn't have to go to the bedroom in order to find the starting point to an interaction crucial for us to go through if we want to continue with Solas's friendship arc - plainly because too many people will miss it. Until Trespasser, when they added the dresser, the bedroom is there for decorative/cutscene scenery reasons, and who knows how persistent the bug was that has prevented people from entering bedroom in the first place? It'd be just like the small arcane library downstairs - it was designed for Morrigan to be there, but during playtests too many people missed the character. Ultimately the effort wasn't worth putting her there, so she landed in the garden instead. Where did I say anything about "getting" it? And I largely agreed that they might have perhaps made it more clear that we're dreaming at the start of the interaction at least...
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Post by 10k on Oct 15, 2017 0:57:59 GMT
Well I always thought DA was trying to hit that dark fantasy mark, especially with Origins. It just seems that the focus has shifted more and more towards high fantasy instead. But whatever. I just think it's weird that the next story is speculated to be in Tevinter, a place which was described of having dark themes such as slavery and the like. But brothels won't exist? Doesn't matter to me really (DA will be DOA as I see it). People get offended much more easier these days, especially when viewing graphic depictions of sex or violence. BW just wants everyone to enjoy their games. I don't see any other reasons they'd take out brothels in a place that is riddled with slavery, other than trying not to offend players. The older 2 games in the series had brothels, why not Inquisition or this next upcoming DA?
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Post by slimgrin727 on Oct 15, 2017 1:00:51 GMT
I don't get why people would be opposed to a brothel. I can think of valid reasons it wouldn't be a part of a high fantasy setting, but dark fantasy? This isn't Harry Potter. We can stab a kid to death in the first game, let a man be consumed by a demon, or a girl for that matter. And that's not even covering the larger moral quandaries. I've a hard time seeing how brothels don't belong in this setting.
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Post by midnight tea on Oct 15, 2017 1:05:35 GMT
Another thing that I think should also be noted is that there's also a world of difference between how someone would react to getting tricked and how someone would react to getting tricked and raped. The latter requires significantly more follow-up than the former because otherwise the character has a very atypical, to say the least. reaction to what they've suffered. o You'd have to repeatedly provide the player options on how their character would deal with this because unlike if the character had merely been tricked by Envy and nothing more, you can't just provide one or two lines after the fact. o The alternative is to write a streamlined follow-up and provide mandatory scenes like Shepard's dream sequences which might, amongst other things, clash with how some players have roleplayed their characters. Leaving the trauma unmentioned as a way of the character supposedly suppressing the trauma would be a poor streamline solution since it could easily be seen as shoving the whole thing off-screen like it never happened and making the whole rape unnecessary because there'd be no lasting impact. Consequences to actions, a staple of storytelling. It would be swell if Bioware would include some ... It certainly would be swell if they could include all, but designing a huge RPG with a word budget and a budget has its limits. It's not a book they're writing where they can use as many words as they like, or they do so in an entirely linear fashion. Cutting implications of rape because, among other things, they wouldn't be able to implement addressing it in a game with limits in terms of how much content they can put into it is an entirely valid reason to do so, without insinuating that they were 'afraid to do something' or 'were afraid to offend someone'.
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Post by majesticjazz on Oct 15, 2017 1:06:26 GMT
I don't get why people would be opposed to a brothel. I can think of valid reasons it wouldn't be a part of a high fantasy setting, but dark fantasy? This isn't Harry Potter. We can stab a kid to death in the first game, let a man be consumed by a demon, or a girl for that matter. And that's not even covering the larger moral quandaries. I've a hard time seeing how brothels don't belong in this setting. Preach
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Post by midnight tea on Oct 15, 2017 1:08:04 GMT
I don't get why people would be opposed to a brothel. I can think of valid reasons it wouldn't be a part of a high fantasy setting, but dark fantasy? This isn't Harry Potter. We can stab a kid to death in the first game, let a man be consumed by a demon, or a girl for that matter. And that's not even covering the larger moral quandaries. I've a hard time seeing how brothels don't belong in this setting. What I don't get is why you think people are opposed to a brothel? Most people I've seen here aren't - at best they don't think it's really that necessary. Precisely because "darkness" and "adult themes" can be expressed in different ways, like... stabbing kid to death, or letting a man be consumed by a demon and so on.
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Post by river82 on Oct 15, 2017 1:12:21 GMT
Consequences to actions, a staple of storytelling. It would be swell if Bioware would include some ... It certainly would be swell if they could include all, but designing a huge RPG with a word budget and a budget has its limits. It's not a book they're writing where they can use as many words as they like, or they do so in an entirely linear fashion. Cutting implications of rape because, among other things, they wouldn't be able to implement addressing it in a game with limits in terms of how much content they can put into it is an entirely valid reason to do so, without insinuating that they were 'afraid to do something' or 'were afraid to offend someone'. I completely agree with you when it comes to budget, but this comes back to my disappointment with Laidlaw as a creative director. Too much focus on exploring tons of big, open, empty areas in Inquisition IMO, which detracted from other important stuff. However, considering that the writer in question was fine with his content until someone mentioned it was a rape scene definitely signifies a fear of that word, yes. He is not a director, he does not manage the budgets, those are not his concerns, and when submitted for review someone said "rape scene" and he baulked. That is lack of courage in a writer
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Post by 10k on Oct 15, 2017 1:14:41 GMT
I don't get why people would be opposed to a brothel. I can think of valid reasons it wouldn't be a part of a high fantasy setting, but dark fantasy? This isn't Harry Potter. We can stab a kid to death in the first game, let a man be consumed by a demon, or a girl for that matter. And that's not even covering the larger moral quandaries. I've a hard time seeing how brothels don't belong in this setting. That's funny, I just remembered they also removed the original desire demons from DA. People who say this has nothing to do with PC culture is lying to themselves.
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Post by smilesja on Oct 15, 2017 1:15:47 GMT
Does anyone any proof of Bioware going PC?
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Post by melbella on Oct 15, 2017 1:22:09 GMT
I actually thought they were leaning more toward consoles....
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Oct 15, 2017 1:22:30 GMT
Does anyone any proof of Bioware going PC?
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Post by river82 on Oct 15, 2017 1:23:58 GMT
I actually thought they were leaning more toward consoles.... There's a reason people are upset about Bioware being more console focused though xD Being more console focused is sound business but you sacrifice certain things ...
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Post by melbella on Oct 15, 2017 1:25:13 GMT
Sigh. No one appreciates a good pun anymore.
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Post by slimgrin727 on Oct 15, 2017 1:34:09 GMT
I don't get why people would be opposed to a brothel. I can think of valid reasons it wouldn't be a part of a high fantasy setting, but dark fantasy? This isn't Harry Potter. We can stab a kid to death in the first game, let a man be consumed by a demon, or a girl for that matter. And that's not even covering the larger moral quandaries. I've a hard time seeing how brothels don't belong in this setting. What I don't get is why you think people are opposed to a brothel? Most people I've seen here aren't - at best they don't think it's really that necessary. Precisely because "darkness" and "adult themes" can be expressed in different ways, like... stabbing kid to death, or letting a man be consumed by a demon and so on. What are these different ways? Other than the ways they've expressed in DA:O. I'm trying to understand this sanitized yet somehow dark view of fantasy.
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Post by 10k on Oct 15, 2017 1:34:19 GMT
Does anyone any proof of Bioware going PC? Nope no evidence. But can you explain to me why they are taking out brothels in a series where they were already present, horribly depicting trans people in their games by having these characters basically exclaim they are trans like it has to be known (news flash: Trans people don't run around telling everyone their story about being trans. They are people like everyone else. Nothing special about them.), or getting rid of the original concept of the desire demon whom was a provocative female form? It's obvious they are either A: trying not to offend players; I.e. pandering. Or B: Pushing an agenda. So please explain to me what's going on.
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Post by midnight tea on Oct 15, 2017 1:48:44 GMT
It certainly would be swell if they could include all, but designing a huge RPG with a word budget and a budget has its limits. It's not a book they're writing where they can use as many words as they like, or they do so in an entirely linear fashion. Cutting implications of rape because, among other things, they wouldn't be able to implement addressing it in a game with limits in terms of how much content they can put into it is an entirely valid reason to do so, without insinuating that they were 'afraid to do something' or 'were afraid to offend someone'. I completely agree with you when it comes to budget, but this comes back to my disappointment with Laidlaw as a creative director. Too much focus on exploring tons of big, open, empty areas in Inquisition IMO, which detracted from other important stuff. We weren't there when they were creating DAI, but from what I've read, it wasn't smooth sailing. We know that many of their creative decisions were dictated by things like having to create RPG tools and assets from scratch, designing for 5 consoles at once and so on, so I think that just shifting all of the blame for all/most creative decisions on Laidlaw is oversimplifying things. We already know that Gaider said that cutting exploration content would NOT mean more cutscenes, or longer main quest and so on. Making a game of this scope is way more complicated and requires a team effort. And from the picture that emerges of DAI's development, the game actually turned out better than it had a right to be - all thanks to its experienced team. At this point this is bending over backwards to give this thing a negative spin. The writer has already explained it wasn't the fear of the rape per se, but that it wasn't intended to be a rape scene in the first place. So if there was fear, it was there only in a sense that they were afraid to do a sh*tty job at conveying the intent, or not creating a scenario which they wouldn't be able to properly address in the game. Seriously, people really need to stop (selectively) treating peer reviews or revisions like it's an interference, or that if creator modifies the work according to feedback it means that he/she chickens out. As professional artist who has her works reviewed on professional and personal level I can only shake my head at this. It's ultimately my decision to ask and listen to feedback and any revision I choose to implement based on feedback has little to do with 'lacking the courage', especially if it turns out that I borked something, but due to limited perspective, art-block, lack of time or just sheer creative fatigue I just don't see it until someone points this out to me (virtually every creator will tell you that this happens to them fairly frequently, I guarantee it to you). Given all that, silly accusations like the one above, merely comes across as thinly veiled passive aggressiveness.
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midnighttea
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Post by midnight tea on Oct 15, 2017 1:51:06 GMT
What I don't get is why you think people are opposed to a brothel? Most people I've seen here aren't - at best they don't think it's really that necessary. Precisely because "darkness" and "adult themes" can be expressed in different ways, like... stabbing kid to death, or letting a man be consumed by a demon and so on. What are these different ways? Other than the ways they've expressed in DA:O. I'm trying to understand this sanitized yet somehow dark view of fantasy. See, that's your problem. You don't see a brothel and you immediately think 'sanitized', while such assumption is silly in the first place - especially that brothels in previous DA titles have little to do with "darkness", but were in fact pretty silly themselves.
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