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Post by midnight tea on Oct 15, 2017 6:03:52 GMT
He didn't want to write a rape scene and never intended to. Yet you keep saying he should have done so despite his intent. Ergo, you think he should have been forced to write a rape scene that he didn't want to. He was fine with it initially because he didn't realize what he wrote. Sexual violence generally affects men differently than women, so men are conditioned to have a different perspective. He wrote something that he didn't intend, so he changed it to better fit what he originally intended. The only reason you're obsessing over this specific instance over all the other times this happened is because sex is involved. He wrote a rape scene and changed it based on how it was labelled. He changed it because of outside perceptions, ergo he's a coward. LOL, "he didn't realise what he wrote"? LOL, he knew what he wrote, he didn't know what it was called. I'll let you in on a little secret, every time I'm involved in one of these arguments on the DA forum, it's because someone picks an argument with me over something I said. It's not me that's obsessing with it, it's the people who keep angsting over what I say. Well yeah... because what you sometimes say is either bizarre or unwarranted or strange and people have hard time understanding why you keep saying it And yes "LOL" - people totally may not realize what they wrote. I know that. Every creator worth their salt knows that. It happens to the best of us. I had to point out stupid things to friends and peers, including the one when two people talking in a plot-important scene technically can't do so... because they're supposed to speak two different languages! Stupid things happen and stay unnoticed. Especially in drafts and scenes where we're just throwing ideas or there's a lot to do, fast. And the scenario Gaider has brought seems to have happened in brainstorming phase early in quest's development, considering that the final result doesn't resemble anything he described. Neither the scene or scenario worked in the end - and Gaider makes it a point to mention that they didn't just drop the idea like a hot potato, but actually tried to brainstorm around it, only to realize that it's not going anywhere. A very common problem, actually.
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Post by sageoflife on Oct 15, 2017 6:04:24 GMT
He changed it because he wrote something he didn't intend to. This happens all the time in the writing process and is one of the purposes of editors. The only reason you're obsessing over this specific instance is because sex is involved. No, he didn't know what he wrote, because men are not typically conditioned to perceive sexual violence the way women are. Right, that's because you keep making bizarre excuses for how it's "cowardly" to rewrite something to better fit the writer's intent. Because people call you out on your bullshit. Clearly everyone is at fault except you. He knew exactly what he wrote, he didn't know how it would be perceived. While editing does happen all the time, self-censorship tends to happen a lot with scaredy cats. His intent is perfectly clear for all of us with more than one eye to see. People don't call me out at all, they like to whinge at me for what I say but they don't call me out. Well, obviously he didn't notice that he wrote in the option for the Inquisitor to sexually violate Leliana. So we're back to you wanting to force people to write rape scenes even if they don't want to. The writer's intent doesn't remove the unfortunate implications he unintentionally added. Yes, people are calling you out on accusing someone of cowardice because he dared not to write something that he didn't want to write in the first place. You just keep making excuses because you can't handle criticism.
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Post by river82 on Oct 15, 2017 6:08:11 GMT
He wrote a rape scene and changed it based on how it was labelled. He changed it because of outside perceptions, ergo he's a coward. LOL, "he didn't realise what he wrote"? LOL, he knew what he wrote, he didn't know what it was called. I'll let you in on a little secret, every time I'm involved in one of these arguments on the DA forum, it's because someone picks an argument with me over something I said. It's not me that's obsessing with it, it's the people who keep angsting over what I say. Well yeah... because what you sometimes say is either bizarre or unwarranted or strange and people have hard time understanding why you keep saying it And yes "LOL" - people totally may not realize what they wrote. I know that. Every creator worth their salt knows that. It happens to the best of us. I had to point out stupid things to friends and peers, including the one when two people talking in a plot-important scene technically can't do so... because they're supposed to speak two different languages! Stupid things happen and stay unnoticed. Especially in drafts and scenes where we're just throwing ideas or there's a lot to do, fast. And the scenario Gaider has brought seems to have happened in brainstorming phase early in quest's development, considering that the final result doesn't resemble anything he described. Neither the scene or scenario worked in the end - and Gaider makes it a point to mention that they didn't just drop the idea like a hot potato, but actually tried to brainstorm around it, only to realize that it's not going anywhere. A very common problem, actually. I refuse to conform My thoughts are original in every aspect xD I am totes weird :3 I understand when you're so exhausted all you see are words or lines or things and people have trouble connecting the dots. There's just, I dunno, I've never woken up the next day though and go "oh, silly rape scene, how did that get in there." I just can't relate to that. But you're right, I'm probably being far too harsh on him That's what tends to happen on forums I guess. I'll stop posting here, but I'm still kinda suspicious. Just me though, other people will have different experiences
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Oct 15, 2017 6:12:05 GMT
Since I saw someone asking for the original quote from Gaider(technically not the original quote but copied from his Tumblr before it was closed): Q: A while back you talked about how there was a scenario in the game that came off as ‘Rape-like’ and needed to be rewritten, I was just curious and wanted to know how it panned out differently and how you made it better for all your fans. A: "The post in question was this one, where I mentioned a peer review of a plot with a situation that “could easily be interpreted as a form of rape”. During the review, the female members of the peer group mentioned how uncomfortable it made them feel…and because that wasn’t the writer’s intention, he ended up changing it. Some people took that to mean the writer had actually put a rape into the story, and just didn’t realize it until the female writers pointed it out—which wasn’t the case at all, but since I couldn’t go into detail of the specifics, there wasn’t really any way to clarify. But Dragon Age: Inquisition is out now, so I’ll clarify. For those wishing to avoid spoilers, this is the point at which you bow out. Still here? Okay then. The plot in question was “Champions of the Just”, the one you get if you go to Therinfal Redoubt after the templars and the Lord Seeker. You’ll recall there is a section where Envy has taken the form of Leliana, and is poking and prodding at the Inquisitor’s psyche in order to determine what makes him/her tick. If I recall correctly, this early version of the plot had it so that the player wasn’t aware they were inside their head. The fight with the Lord Seeker was quickly ended, the templars wrapped up and the player heads back to Haven…almost too easily. Haven is too quiet, and Leliana is there asking odd questions and testing the player’s responses. One of these things had Envy-Leliana attempting to seduce you. It was creepy and weird, and one of the places where the player was allowed to go, “Woah! This definitely isn’t right!” But the player also had the opportunity to accept. There were going to be severe consequences for accepting, but regardless of that the thing that was pointed out was how the creepiness of the situation went beyond the demon-seduction itself and more how it seemed to be a sexual violation of Leliana by-proxy. Never mind that it was Envy initiating it, you thought (or seemingly thought) you were sleeping with Leliana, and it made for uncomfortable follow-up trying to imagine whether that was something we could just let slide and/or whether it should be something you could address with the real Leliana…or whether it should be allowed at all. The circumstances could have been changed, perhaps, and while the peer group discussed it, the fact remained that it wasn’t an element the writer wanted to introduce—it was supposed to be about Envy and its creepy probing only, so he elected to take it out (and, ultimately, the entire set-up of that part of the plot changed anyhow). I normally wouldn’t discuss an early form of a plot (all of them went through similar revisions on a constant basis), or bring up a plot point which got dropped (which happens a lot), except that in this specific case it felt telling that none of us guys really thought much beyond the author’s intention, and the introduction of an alternate interpretation (gender-based, or at least it seemed such) proved to be an incredibly valuable discussion point that we might have missed if the dynamics on the team had been different…which made me think how much of it might get missed elsewhere. Thus I believed it worth mentioning." https://www.reddit.com/r/dragonage/comments/2rcnmj/david_gaider_answers_some_more_questions_asexual/
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Post by river82 on Oct 15, 2017 6:17:19 GMT
Thank you, Hanako. That's why I wanted the full quote by Gaider. I again apologise and retract my statement against the writer in question. It makes much more sense now, this is the sort of nuance stuff you can easily miss (dragging Leliana into a situation that was only meant to be about 2) but the original quote where it was like "he included rape by accident", I keep thinking that's really hard to do unintentionally xD
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Post by sageoflife on Oct 15, 2017 6:24:05 GMT
Thank you, Hanako. That's why I wanted the full quote by Gaider. I again apologise and retract my statement against the writer in question. It makes much more sense now, this is the sort of nuance stuff you can easily miss but the original quote where it was like "he included rape by accident", I keep thinking that's really hard to do unintentionally xD Oh, yes. "He's a coward because he refined what he wrote to better show what he intended," is such a nuanced position.
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Post by river82 on Oct 15, 2017 6:25:24 GMT
Thank you, Hanako. That's why I wanted the full quote by Gaider. I again apologise and retract my statement against the writer in question. It makes much more sense now, this is the sort of nuance stuff you can easily miss but the original quote where it was like "he included rape by accident", I keep thinking that's really hard to do unintentionally xD Oh, yes. "He's a coward because he refined what he wrote to better show what he intended," is such a nuanced position. If a scene is written about 2 people and the consequences extend accidentally to a third, that is something that can easily be missed and addressed. "Accidentally including rape so I removed it" is, imo, still quite stupid
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Post by sageoflife on Oct 15, 2017 6:27:25 GMT
Oh, yes. "He's a coward because he refined what he wrote to better show what he intended," is such a nuanced position. If a scene is written about 2 people and the consequences extend accidentally to a third, that is something that can easily be missed and addressed. "Accidentally including rape so I removed it" is, imo, still quite stupid So you're acknowledging that he was being perfectly reasonable in not noticing what he wrote and refining it in response to criticism.
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Post by river82 on Oct 15, 2017 6:31:32 GMT
If a scene is written about 2 people and the consequences extend accidentally to a third, that is something that can easily be missed and addressed. "Accidentally including rape so I removed it" is, imo, still quite stupid So you're acknowledging that he was being perfectly reasonable in not noticing what he wrote and refining it in response to criticism. Remember the above post where I said I based my criticism on RRas' paraphrasing, and that was wrong of me, and how I apologise (I'm sorry) and retract my criticism to the Bioware writer in general? I reiterate that, and I should base my criticism solely on only direct lengthy quotes and not people paraphrasing on forums. It was entirely reasonable to refine that piece. I got lazy and I should have tracked down the full quote by Gaider. My mistake.
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Post by naughtynomad on Oct 15, 2017 7:00:48 GMT
Too bad. It sounds like that scene was a lot like the old BW we used to know and love. Not the sanitized Disney version we played in Inquisition.
Just look at the early concept art for the game if you want to see how far away from its conceptualization the release version was.
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Post by Kappa Neko on Oct 15, 2017 8:43:50 GMT
While I do agree that it's a valid and normal process to review scenes and change them if not everyone agrees on it, I actually don't see the problem with that particular example.
The way I understand it the demon just took the form of Leliana, not actually possess her? Even if it was the latter, what is the problem of showing something wrong and label it as such? If there were going to be (negative) consequences for giving in to the seduction, it's not even particularly controversial.
Of course it's difficult to judge how it would actually have come across and whether that scene would have been too dark in comparison to the rest of the game. Doesn't matter if DAI wasn't dark enough overall to some people, you can't just have one scene go really dark out of the blue when the rest is not.
But just in terms of "uncomfortable" regardless of context it actually sounds to me exactly like modern entertainment shunning away from things that could seem too offensive when imo at least they are not. But we all have a different threshold for that...
Art (even in entertainment) should be about being interesting, emotionally and morally stimulating (shock and disgust is part of it), not about comfortable. Comfortable is boring.
But like I said, it's my personal opinion. And I DO agree that overall tonality matters in determining what goes too far. And from a business perspective I can understand avoiding things that make too many people uncomfortable.
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midnight tea
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Post by midnight tea on Oct 15, 2017 10:14:58 GMT
1) In what way is the "when" and the "where" the whole point of the issue? The WHY is all that matters here, the reason it was changed deals with the motivations behind the change which is precisely what we're talking about. In what way is "when" and "where" relevant? The why is entirely dependent on when and where. A case of a demon impersonating a high-ranking adviser and problems that it brings on multiple fronts stemming from that particular case to the rest of the story or game - not just the vague notion of rape itself.
You're not just implying, you're downright saying it. What they did was 'cowardly', they were 'scared', they did so because someone labeled it 'rape' and any other reason is irrelevant. The language itself is clear. And if you're not trying to imply it consciously, you're doing a very good job of not realizing that you're doing so... something feedback is good for, you know.
And I keep stating precisely what I mean and been doing so for a while now, but sadly I just keep being ignored or strawmaned to oblivion.
Okay, we're getting to a point when you're trying to argue that it's not even an issue of labeling, but that he adjusted his content based on a reaction to it in the first place. I really think you need to step back and take a long, hard look what you're doing right now, because we're reaching some seriously wacky territory here...
But it's not the sole reason why they've changed it. It simply didn't work. It took away from original intent - not just in a sense that the author didn't intend it. And the final product differs greatly from scenario that was described, meaning that the whole quest was extensively rewritten multiple times - which is entirely normal for games, especially this large and encompasses way more reasons for it than "look out! I've labeled it a rape!".
I certainly didn't invent you going on an pointless tangent about labels, nor I am the one who is so extremely set in trying to prove that Bioware writers are supposed cowards that - by implication - you're making some really unwarranted claims not just about Biowareans themselves, but creators in general.
All the time we're talking about labels in context of actual feedback, not just some random act of labeling you're now trying to separate and label (sic!) as 'not-feedback'.
And right now it seems that you want to dismiss remarks of fellow Bioware writers as some sort of nefarious/damaging labelling, instead of what it actually was: a professional peer review session that dealt specifically with what was there and encompassed way more than a few female writers voicing their concern. It's almost like you're trying to say that their initial criticism is invalid because... what? They're women? They hold certain views? What exactly is making their professional review held in professional setting among professionals NOT professional and just meant to 'attach a label'? And how exactly a feedback is supposed to look when they spot an issue, but they can't say it looks like rape or has consent issues without - according to you - it being 'not labeling'?
This is some serious attempt at hair splitting made with a blunt axe.
Sorry, but... what do you think feedback/critique is other than how other people perceive your work? It literally is a matter of hearing the different perspective and guess what - a different perspective won't happen without someone perceiving your work in their way. Everybody will always be subjective and everybody, to some degree, will use some some labels or generalizations, even if as a staring point, rather than end of discussion.
At this point I choose to believe that you're just either confused or there's some serious miscommunication going on here - because somehow I can't believe we're getting to a point that you're starting to sound like you're ready to deem ANY change based on ANY external reaction to presented content as a mark of cowardice - or whatever number of obviously negative things you want to call it and it just blows my mind.
You don't even have to be involved with any creative field to know that even well-established creators, or even whole teams of them, screw royally from time to time - you just need to open Google. I know and experienced enough to be aware that screw ups happen for zillion reasons that have little to do with incompetence or malice. We're just people and art is how we express ourselves and sometimes it's not easy to express ourselves without some mishaps.
I mean... its' a good thing that it's art, ey? That we can have drafts and experiments and things we sometimes push the limits of to see if it maybe work and we can later review and gain some feedback and adjust and iterate and refine in case we feel we need it, before we send it into the world and potentially end with an egg on our face or a stupid thing that wrecks something we worked really hard for or is just an unnecessary problem we have an opportunity to address? So... because someone didn't know or didn't notice that some situations could be viewed as problematic they are NOT supposed to change anything, because 'changing content based on how it's labeled' is a sign of cowardice or creative weakness? I'm really losing plot here.
You're free to keep all the details of your private or creative life to yourself, but if I am to judge based on what you've argued so far I reserve the right to remain skeptical.
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Post by river82 on Oct 15, 2017 10:36:19 GMT
1) In what way is the "when" and the "where" the whole point of the issue? The WHY is all that matters here, the reason it was changed deals with the motivations behind the change which is precisely what we're talking about. In what way is "when" and "where" relevant? The why is entirely dependent on when and where. A case of a demon impersonating a high-ranking adviser and problems that it brings on multiple fronts stemming from that particular case to the rest of the story or game - not just the vague notion of rape itself.
You're not just implying, you're downright saying it. What they did was 'cowardly', they were 'scared', they did so because someone labeled it 'rape' and any other reason is irrelevant. The language itself is clear. And if you're not trying to imply it consciously, you're doing a very good job of not realizing that you're doing so... something feedback is good for, you know.
And I keep stating precisely what I mean and been doing so for a while now, but sadly I just keep being ignored or strawmaned to oblivion.
Okay, we're getting to a point when you're trying to argue that it's not even an issue of labeling, but that he adjusted his content based on a reaction to it in the first place. I really think you need to step back and take a long, hard look what you're doing right now, because we're reaching some seriously wacky territory here...
But it's not the sole reason why they've changed it. It simply didn't work. It took away from original intent - not just in a sense that the author didn't intend it. And the final product differs greatly from scenario that was described, meaning that the whole quest was extensively rewritten multiple times - which is entirely normal for games, especially this large and encompasses way more reasons for it than "look out! I've labeled it a rape!".
I certainly didn't invent you going on an pointless tangent about labels, nor I am the one who is so extremely set in trying to prove that Bioware writers are supposed cowards that - by implication - you're making some really unwarranted claims not just about Biowareans themselves, but creators in general.
All the time we're talking about labels in context of actual feedback, not just some random act of labeling you're now trying to separate and label (sic!) as 'not-feedback'.
And right now it seems that you want to dismiss remarks of fellow Bioware writers as some sort of nefarious/damaging labelling, instead of what it actually was: a professional peer review session that dealt specifically with what was there and encompassed way more than a few female writers voicing their concern. It's almost like you're trying to say that their initial criticism is invalid because... what? They're women? They hold certain views? What exactly is making their professional review held in professional setting among professionals NOT professional and just meant to 'attach a label'? And how exactly a feedback is supposed to look when they spot an issue, but they can't say it looks like rape or has consent issues without - according to you - it being 'not labeling'?
This is some serious attempt at hair splitting made with a blunt axe.
Sorry, but... what do you think feedback/critique is other than how other people perceive your work? It literally is a matter of hearing the different perspective and guess what - a different perspective won't happen without someone perceiving your work in their way. Everybody will always be subjective and everybody, to some degree, will use some some labels or generalizations, even if as a staring point, rather than end of discussion.
At this point I choose to believe that you're just either confused or there's some serious miscommunication going on here - because somehow I can't believe we're getting to a point that you're starting to sound like you're ready to deem ANY change based on ANY external reaction to presented content as a mark of cowardice - or whatever number of obviously negative things you want to call it and it just blows my mind.
You don't even have to be involved with any creative field to know that even well-established creators, or even whole teams of them, screw royally from time to time - you just need to open Google. I know and experienced enough to be aware that screw ups happen for zillion reasons that have little to do with incompetence or malice. We're just people and art is how we express ourselves and sometimes it's not easy to express ourselves without some mishaps.
I mean... its' a good thing that it's art, ey? That we can have drafts and experiments and things we sometimes push the limits of to see if it maybe work and we can later review and gain some feedback and adjust and iterate and refine in case we feel we need it, before we send it into the world and potentially end with an egg on our face or a stupid thing that wrecks something we worked really hard for or is just an unnecessary problem we have an opportunity to address? So... because someone didn't know or didn't notice that some situations could be viewed as problematic they are NOT supposed to change anything, because 'changing content based on how it's labeled' is a sign of cowardice or creative weakness? I'm really losing plot here.
You're free to keep all the details of your private or creative life to yourself, but if I am to judge based on what you've argued so far I reserve the right to remain skeptical.
1) Those problems of when and where were not a part of the original quote I was addressing. Nowhere did it mention the problems associated with the when and the where in the response to why the scene was deleted that I was referencing. You can't include stuff that isn't in the response because you think that might be the case, you can only deal with directly what was stated. The original quote I referenced only mentioned the scene being deleted because of rape, and that is all that I addressed. That was a mistake yes, the original comment turned out to be wrong, but if hypothetically it wasn't and that's all Gaider's response contained then I'm not going to make up stuff to add to his response so that it fits into my worldview. I'd address solely what's there because communicating is his responsibility if he's commenting about a game in the capacity of an employee. 2) What you said was (and I can quote it if you want) that I implied the writer was a snowflake and that he would always be to cowardly to include rape. Both of which I never said. Both of which I never implied. 3)The reaction to it was a label, that's part of how people digest something, and if he had responded purely to that reaction, purely to that label, then I stand by everything I previously said. But it wasn't so I retracted my comment. 4) Yes, that was my mistake. I said before I took a comment on the forum as gospel and that was foolish of me. Gaider's long response is much more telling. I should have hunted it down to begin with. If I'm reading Gaider's quote right the scene could easily have worked. They didn't change it because it "didn't work". 5) There was no pointless tangent about labels, and I stand by the general comments I made. I'm really not interested about the hurt feelings of creators in general. 6) Labelling something isn't "actual feedback". Well, it's "feedback" just not "quality feedback". If you take people labelling stuff as "quality feedback" you need to learn how to evaluate feedback better. Did I say they're invalidated because they're women? I said "labels" carry negative connotations attached to that word which tarnishes a work with qualities it may or may not have. You should stop inferring things that aren't there. 7) Part of being a "creator" is learning to separate quality feedback from useless feedback. It's a very important skill. Treating everything like it's quality feedback is a laughable path to head down. And no, it's a misunderstanding. I've constantly stated that if you change your work SOLELY due to outside perceptions then you're scared. 8) Not even in my first drafts, those drafts that a writer never shows anybody they're that terrible, not even in those have I ever included a rape scene "unintentionally." Like I said if you do incompetent or lying is my impression. 9) I'm very uninterested in your skepticism.
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Post by mikeymoonshine on Oct 15, 2017 10:47:32 GMT
I don't understand what is so hard for some people to grasp. Social factors typically mean different demographics end up with different perspectives. White people have a different perspective than black people, which can result in something well-intentioned ending up looking rather racist. See what happened to Jacob Taylor in ME3 Men have a different perspective than women, so something well-intentioned can end up looking sexist or creepy instead. See the original plan for Champions of the Just. Straight people have a different perspective than gay people, so something well-intentioned can end up with homophobic undertones. See Gil Brodie's baby subplot. Getting diverse opinions isn't about cowardness or "political correctness". It's about empathy and covering as many bases as possible so the writer's intent can properly show itself. I actually disagree with this, I didn't like the Gil Brodie baby nonsense but I know several other gay people who did. I think whether or not it has homophobic undertones should be determined based on whether or not there is a decent argument that it does and not simply that some gay people feel it does. Consulting members of a specific group as a writer when writing about that group is of course valuable because they are going to know a lot more about what being a member of that group is like but an individual member of that group or even a select few members are not the grand arbiters of what you can and can't write in relation to that group. The idea that the scene in question implied rape is a contentious issue, some people feel it did others feel it did not and some people feel it may have but that this does not mean it needed to change just based on that. I felt that the Iron Bull was a massive walking talking sex object. I know women who agree with me on that, women who disagree with me on that, men who agree with me on that and men who disagree ect ect. Women and minority groups are not collectives like the borg.
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Post by naughtynomad on Oct 15, 2017 10:53:20 GMT
The way I understand it the demon just took the form of Leliana, not actually possess her? Even if it was the latter, what is the problem of showing something wrong and label it as such? If there were going to be (negative) consequences for giving in to the seduction, it's not even particularly controversial. I think the implied "rape" was that of the player. Not Leliana. They got scared the whiny feminazis would scream that their game raped them and cut the scene.
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Post by river82 on Oct 15, 2017 11:14:09 GMT
They got scared the whiny feminazis would scream that their game raped them and cut the scene. Goody, an actual quote for Midnight Tea to get angry over. Maybe now there's a real and distinct quote to target she can stop attributing stuff to me that I didn't say.
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Post by Kappa Neko on Oct 15, 2017 11:14:44 GMT
The way I understand it the demon just took the form of Leliana, not actually possess her? Even if it was the latter, what is the problem of showing something wrong and label it as such? If there were going to be (negative) consequences for giving in to the seduction, it's not even particularly controversial. I think the implied "rape" was that of the player. Not Leliana. They got scared the whiny feminazis would scream that their game raped them and cut the scene. No, it was about "violating Leliana by proxy". I would even sort of agree on that but I don't quite understand the consequence of that thought being we cannot have that sort of topic. Showing is not endorsing something. I feel like these days just showing something is offensive. I wildly disagree. It would be offensive if the game implied that this was a cool thing to do. I can however see how giving the option to the inquisitor to do that sort of thing is not in line with the general characterization. I honestly think giving Fenris back to his master is equally dark and evil. But Hawke could overall be a much darker character. So if this was about being out of character for the inquisitor, I get the point. I would then say this is exactly why the inquisitor was a weak protagonist if these sort of morally questionable choices don't make sense, but that's a different topic. I'm in no way saying Bioware shouldn't write whatever they want. I'm simply stating that I would personally have found this scene interesting, in theory, and perfectly in line with other creepy shit in Thedas.
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Post by naughtynomad on Oct 15, 2017 11:48:41 GMT
They got scared the whiny feminazis would scream that their game raped them and cut the scene. Goody, an actual quote for Midnight Tea to get angry over. Maybe now there's a real and distinct quote to target she can stop attributing stuff to me that I didn't say. Hah, she mostly learned her lesson when it comes to debating with me I think.
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Post by river82 on Oct 15, 2017 12:09:20 GMT
Heh, on topic for a moment (shocking I know) and with 40 pages filled to the brim with with hundreds of thousands of people begging, pleading, imploring Bioware to include brothels in the upcoming game, it looks like the public has spoken :3 Good job people
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Post by Fredward on Oct 15, 2017 12:14:14 GMT
I also thought the rapeyness of the scene was at the player. I have never taken that route in Inquistion but it happens when the PC is possessed or controlled or manipulated or something, right? So the image of Leliana is used to seduce the player (I'm assuming, it might be different since we never saw it) and the player sleeps with 'Leliana' not knowing she's a sockpuppet for a demon ie the consent/capacity to consent aspect is absent there.
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Post by river82 on Oct 15, 2017 12:21:55 GMT
I also thought the rapeyness of the scene was at the player. I have never taken that route in Inquistion but it happens when the PC is possessed or controlled or manipulated or something, right? So the image of Leliana is used to seduce the player (I'm assuming, it might be different since we never saw it) and the player sleeps with 'Leliana' not knowing she's a sockpuppet for a demon ie the consent/capacity to consent aspect is absent there. *Sigh* this is the problem with trying to reduce everything down to 1 word descriptors, they're vague, they're inaccurate, and quite a bit of the time people's image of what that word entails doesn't fit the reality. It's part of what I've been trying to say the whole damn time xD
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Post by Fredward on Oct 15, 2017 13:10:35 GMT
I also thought the rapeyness of the scene was at the player. I have never taken that route in Inquistion but it happens when the PC is possessed or controlled or manipulated or something, right? So the image of Leliana is used to seduce the player (I'm assuming, it might be different since we never saw it) and the player sleeps with 'Leliana' not knowing she's a sockpuppet for a demon ie the consent/capacity to consent aspect is absent there. *Sigh* this is the problem with trying to reduce everything down to 1 word descriptors, they're vague, they're inaccurate, and quite a bit of the time people's image of what that word entails doesn't fit the reality. It's part of what I've been trying to say the whole damn time xD I haven't really been following the back and forth but 1. If a writer is writing one thing, like say a discomfiting dialogue with a demon whose trying to figure out all your squishy bits so it can kill you and steal your identity and 2. not a scene that's supposed to give rapey vibes and 3. they don't realize it gives rapey vibes because 4. they come from a context where that consideration or perspective doesn't really signify and 5. when they're offered an additional way of reading a scene from a respected co-worker and 6. they realize the way they wrote the scene could indeed be interpreted in a way they never intended for it to be communicated then 7. it doesn't seem all that weird to alter what they wrote. IIRC the initial context for this being raised was to highlight the importance of different views and experiences in the writing room. No single writer is gonna be able to intuit every conceivable interpretation of their text. All this was from my perspective is someone bringing in an encounter, someone with a different read on it going "Hey, did you intend to give this rapey undertones?" and the other person going "Nooot really?" If I wrote a character and I wanted them to have a red handkerchief in their right back pocket for ~flair~ and someone told me "Hey, is your character into being anally fisted?" it wouldn't be an example of political correctness or whatevethefuck agenda, it would be a information I did not have access to that could conceivably influence the way a broader audience would interpret that character that I did not intend. Anyway, regardless of whether the rapey vibes were emanating from Leliana or the Inquisitor it definitely seems like rapey vibes were a missed consideration.
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Post by river82 on Oct 15, 2017 13:18:30 GMT
*Sigh* this is the problem with trying to reduce everything down to 1 word descriptors, they're vague, they're inaccurate, and quite a bit of the time people's image of what that word entails doesn't fit the reality. It's part of what I've been trying to say the whole damn time xD I haven't really been following the back and forth but 1. If a writer is writing one thing, like say a discomfiting dialogue with a demon whose trying to figure out all your squishy bits so it can kill you and steal your identity and 2. not a scene that's supposed to give rapey vibes and 3. they don't realize it gives rapey vibes because 4. they come from a context where that consideration or perspective doesn't really signify and 5. when they're offered an additional way of reading a scene from a respected co-worker and 6. they realize the way they wrote the scene could indeed be interpreted in a way they never intended for it to be communicated then 7. it doesn't seem all that weird to alter what they wrote. IIRC the initial context for this being raised was to highlight the importance of different views and experiences in the writing room. No single writer is gonna be able to intuit every conceivable interpretation of their text. All this was from my perspective is someone bringing in an encounter, someone with a different read on it going "Hey, did you intend to give this rapey undertones?" and the other person going "Nooot really?" If I wrote a character and I wanted them to have a red handkerchief in their right back pocket for ~flair~ and someone told me "Hey, is your character into being anally fisted?" it wouldn't be an example of political correctness or whatevethefuck agenda, it would be a information I did not have access to that could conceivably influence the way a broader audience would interpret that character that I did not intend. Anyway, regardless of whether the rapey vibes were emanating from Leliana or the Inquisitor it definitely seems like rapey vibes were a missed consideration. According to the quote of Gaider's interview by Hanako on the previous page, the scene wasn't changed because of rapey undertones but rather the scene being between two people and the writer not wanting consequences to extend further than those 2 people. It wasn't changed because of the presence of "rapey undertones" and I'd be annoyed if it was, to be frank.
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Post by river82 on Oct 15, 2017 13:39:51 GMT
If I wrote a character and I wanted them to have a red handkerchief in their right back pocket for ~flair~ and someone told me "Hey, is your character into being anally fisted?" it wouldn't be an example of political correctness or whatevethefuck agenda, it would be a information I did not have access to that could conceivably influence the way a broader audience would interpret that character that I did not intend. Anyway, regardless of whether the rapey vibes were emanating from Leliana or the Inquisitor it definitely seems like rapey vibes were a missed consideration. The idea that "rapey undertones" is brought to someones attention is feasible. Mainly because "rapey undertones" is so fucking vague it can mean many different things to many different people. Yes, that is something you'd fish around different perspectives for. The original quote I responded to said the writer was made aware to the fact that what he wrote was rape. Not "rapey undertones" but accidentally inserted rape. That turned out to be wrong (there was no rape against Leliana. it cannot be construed as rape, even if it did have "rapey undertones" and some people say she was violated.) But if you're a writer and you "accidentally inserted rape" into your novel, and you need a fucking committee to tell you that, you have problems, and I don't care who the fuck you are. Alas I replied based on incorrect information so I was way off base. It happens, I guess. Should've been more careful though, no question.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion
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Post by Zatche on Oct 15, 2017 14:00:06 GMT
Too bad. It sounds like that scene was a lot like the old BW we used to know and love. Not the sanitized Disney version we played in Inquisition. Just look at the early concept art for the game if you want to see how far away from its conceptualization the release version was. I wouldn't call Champions of the Just sanitized or Disney. We had templars being forced by the sword to use Red Lyrium, forcing them to become abonimations with crystals protruding out of the body. The fighting starts with an unarmed noble getting an arrow through his head and templars getting stabbed through the back. The dream sequence had a creepy atmosphere and your advisors stabbing each other or phantom versions of you. And the Envy demon was disturbing body horror.
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