melbella
N7
Trouble-shooting Space Diva
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Origin: melbella
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Post by melbella on Oct 15, 2017 16:18:28 GMT
The way I understand it the demon just took the form of Leliana, not actually possess her? Even if it was the latter, what is the problem of showing something wrong and label it as such? If there were going to be (negative) consequences for giving in to the seduction, it's not even particularly controversial. I think the implied "rape" was that of the player. Not Leliana. They got scared the whiny feminazis would scream that their game raped them and cut the scene. 
Except, they left that part in? The Inquisitor is still violated by Envy, so taking this out because they didn't want that to happen wouldn't make sense. Taking it out because it unintentionally involves a third party with weird repercussions in the "real" world does. However, they still show Envy-Leliana killing Cullen and doing all sorts of other horrific shit so I really don't see the problem with how it was set up originally either.
I would not have wanted to then go back and finish up Therinfal "for realsies" though, so maybe it's better they took the fake resolution out just for that reason.
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Exile Isan
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You must gather your party before venturing forth.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
XBL Gamertag: ExileIsan
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Post by Exile Isan on Oct 15, 2017 17:36:06 GMT
I wouldn't call Champions of the Just sanitized or Disney. We had templars being forced by the pain to use Red Lyrium, forcing them to become abonimations with crystals protruding out of the body. The fighting starts with an unarmed noble getting an arrow through his head and templars getting stabbed through the back. The dream sequence had a creepy atmosphere and your advisors stabbing each other or phantom versions of you. And the Envy demon was disturbing body horror. Yeah no kidding. I would say it's on par with anything in DAO or DA2. I mean the Envy demon itself, Envy in Leliana's form slitting Cullen's throat? Of Envy!Cullen stabbing the player? Several uncorrupted templars getting shot in the head in full view of the camera with blood spurting everywhere? The creepy body horror of the Red Templars, exspecially the Red Templer Horrors (hence the name) and red lyrium itself? People have seen that kind of stuff in Disney movies? That's news to me. |
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Post by midnight tea on Oct 15, 2017 18:19:01 GMT
Heh, on topic for a moment (shocking I know) and with 40 pages filled to the brim with with hundreds of thousands of people begging, pleading, imploring Bioware to include brothels in the upcoming game, it looks like the public has spoken :3 Good job people  Okay, I just got back and I'm not really in a mood to pick up when all was left, but... we just spend 4 or 5 pages discussing something else entirely and nowhere across the thread there were 'thousands of folks begging and pleading for brothels'? Not something to "get angry over", but certainly a quote that raises eyebrows abut its intent. Is that supposed to rile people or were you just joking...? |
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Post by sageoflife on Oct 15, 2017 18:19:41 GMT
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Post by river82 on Oct 15, 2017 19:10:30 GMT
Heh, on topic for a moment (shocking I know) and with 40 pages filled to the brim with with hundreds of thousands of people begging, pleading, imploring Bioware to include brothels in the upcoming game, it looks like the public has spoken :3 Good job people Okay, I just got back and I'm not really in a mood to pick up when all was left, but... we just spend 4 or 5 pages discussing something else entirely and nowhere across the thread there were 'thousands of folks begging and pleading for brothels'? Not something to "get angry over", but certainly a quote that raises eyebrows abut its intent. Is that supposed to rile people or were you just joking...? You know, you were probably the only person to get riled up over such an obviously false remark. I included the "hundreds of thousands" of people (not thousands) specifically to take the comment so far out of the realm of possibility that it landed in the realm of the absurd, Why would people get riled up over a comment that's obviously absurd? :S |
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Post by midnight tea on Oct 15, 2017 19:17:01 GMT
Okay, I just got back and I'm not really in a mood to pick up when all was left, but... we just spend 4 or 5 pages discussing something else entirely and nowhere across the thread there were 'thousands of folks begging and pleading for brothels'? Not something to "get angry over", but certainly a quote that raises eyebrows abut its intent. Is that supposed to rile people or were you just joking...? You know, you were probably the only person to get riled up over such an obviously false remark. I included the "hundreds of thousands" of people (not thousands) specifically to take the comment so far out of the realm of possibility that it landed in the realm of the absurd, Why would people get riled up over a comment that's obviously absurd? :S I'm not really riled up over it, rather than curious what was its purpose? |
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Post by river82 on Oct 15, 2017 19:21:18 GMT
You know, you were probably the only person to get riled up over such an obviously false remark. I included the "hundreds of thousands" of people (not thousands) specifically to take the comment so far out of the realm of possibility that it landed in the realm of the absurd, Why would people get riled up over a comment that's obviously absurd? :S I'm not really riled up over it, rather than curious what was its purpose? To throw a little bit of joviality and ridiculousness into a thread that had grown far too tense over recent pages. |
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Post by midnight tea on Oct 15, 2017 19:24:50 GMT
I'm not really riled up over it, rather than curious what was its purpose? To throw a little bit of joviality and ridiculousness into a thread that had grown far too tense over recent pages. That's true. I'm for more joviality. |
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Post by alanc9 on Oct 15, 2017 21:02:03 GMT
I'm not really riled up over it, rather than curious what was its purpose? To throw a little bit of joviality and ridiculousness into a thread that had grown far too tense over recent pages. The problem with executing that strategy is that so many people here say bizarre untrue things and really mean them |
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Oct 15, 2017 21:04:22 GMT
To throw a little bit of joviality and ridiculousness into a thread that had grown far too tense over recent pages. The problem with executing that strategy is that so many people here say bizarre untrue things and really mean them Not to mention that text often doesn't convey tone well, so a sentence written as a joke could be read as meant to be genuine. |
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Post by midnight tea on Oct 15, 2017 21:09:20 GMT
The problem with executing that strategy is that so many people here say bizarre untrue things and really mean them Not to mention that text often doesn't convey tone well, so a sentence written as a joke could be read as meant to be genuine. Poe's Law. Poe's Law everywhere. |
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Post by cloud9 on Oct 15, 2017 21:13:01 GMT
What about roleplay, and the concept of player choice? In reference to brothels? There are lots of ways for devs to let us make choices about our characters. Having sex with prostitutes or not isn't a choice I find particularly interesting. When I made the choice to in DAO, it was more for a laugh than to define my character. It's called freedom of choice. And why brothels and sex is such a big deal? If players want to see sex scenes that's their choice and no one is forcing anyone to watch. |
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Post by majesticjazz on Oct 15, 2017 21:47:23 GMT
In reference to brothels? There are lots of ways for devs to let us make choices about our characters. Having sex with prostitutes or not isn't a choice I find particularly interesting. When I made the choice to in DAO, it was more for a laugh than to define my character. It's called freedom of choice. And why brothels and sex is such a big deal? If players want to see sex scenes that's their choice and no one is forcing anyone to watch. Well, some people may see brothels as a way to depict women as sex objects. |
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Post by OhDaniGirl on Oct 15, 2017 21:55:05 GMT
If sex scenes are the only thing a person is looking for, I'm pretty sure there are websites for that....  |
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formerfiend
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, Mass Effect Andromeda
PSN: Former_Fiend
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Post by formerfiend on Oct 15, 2017 22:01:29 GMT
It's called freedom of choice. And why brothels and sex is such a big deal? If players want to see sex scenes that's their choice and no one is forcing anyone to watch. Well, some people may see brothels as a way to depict women as sex objects. Okay so I've been trying to stay out of this thread because when I was in it earlier I allowed myself to get overly heated in my arguments and it got to the point where it wasn't constructive or good for anyone. But I've got to interject here, because this is utter and complete nonsense. Both the Pearl in DAO and the Blooming Rose in DA2 had both male and female prostitutes and catered to both men and women clients. |
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Post by Zatche on Oct 15, 2017 22:06:25 GMT
In reference to brothels? There are lots of ways for devs to let us make choices about our characters. Having sex with prostitutes or not isn't a choice I find particularly interesting. When I made the choice to in DAO, it was more for a laugh than to define my character. It's called freedom of choice. And why brothels and sex is such a big deal? If players want to see sex scenes that's their choice and no one is forcing anyone to watch. My whole point is that I don't see the big deal. I'm not arguing that brothels and sex inherently make games worse. They're just not something I think needs to be a high priority. |
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Post by DragonKingReborn on Oct 15, 2017 22:07:34 GMT
To throw a little bit of joviality and ridiculousness into a thread that had grown far too tense over recent pages. The problem with executing that strategy is that so many people here say bizarre untrue things and really mean them You've read the Politics thread too? |
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Post by midnight tea on Oct 15, 2017 22:14:15 GMT
It's called freedom of choice. And why brothels and sex is such a big deal? If players want to see sex scenes that's their choice and no one is forcing anyone to watch. My whole point is that I don't see the big deal. I'm not arguing that brothels and sex inherently make games worse. They're just not something I think needs to be a high priority. And was never high priority in DA games, or any BW game for that matter, in the first place. Nobody plays Bioware games for their brothels. |
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Post by smilesja on Oct 15, 2017 22:20:11 GMT
It's called freedom of choice. And why brothels and sex is such a big deal? If players want to see sex scenes that's their choice and no one is forcing anyone to watch. Well, some people may see brothels as a way to depict women as sex objects. There were men in brothels in DA: O and DA2. |
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Oct 15, 2017 22:22:10 GMT
In reference to brothels? There are lots of ways for devs to let us make choices about our characters. Having sex with prostitutes or not isn't a choice I find particularly interesting. When I made the choice to in DAO, it was more for a laugh than to define my character. It's called freedom of choice. And why brothels and sex is such a big deal? If players want to see sex scenes that's their choice and no one is forcing anyone to watch. The only people I see making a big deal of brothels are those who are upset they aren't going to be in DA4. |
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Post by majesticjazz on Oct 15, 2017 22:24:55 GMT
Well, some people may see brothels as a way to depict women as sex objects. Okay so I've been trying to stay out of this thread because when I was in it earlier I allowed myself to get overly heated in my arguments and it got to the point where it wasn't constructive or good for anyone. But I've got to interject here, because this is utter and complete nonsense. Both the Pearl in DAO and the Blooming Rose in DA2 had both male and female prostitutes and catered to both men and women clients. My point exactly! But there seems to be some double standard where men could be "objectified" and nobody really cares, but once women in games become objectified sex objects, it is a big deal. Notice how no one ever complains about Kratos or any other main game character and how their proportions are not realistic and how they are being sexualized etc. But once it comes to a female character with unreal proportions and being sexualized, then the gaming industry is sexist. So for some, they were willing to ignore the fact that men were also prostitutes in those brothels and somehow just focus on the females. |
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Post by themikefest on Oct 15, 2017 22:26:50 GMT
The fighting starts with an unarmed noble getting an arrow through his head and templars getting stabbed through the back. That noble can live depending on if the Herald sides with the noble to avoid dealing with the flag thing. |
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Post by smilesja on Oct 15, 2017 22:30:05 GMT
Okay so I've been trying to stay out of this thread because when I was in it earlier I allowed myself to get overly heated in my arguments and it got to the point where it wasn't constructive or good for anyone. But I've got to interject here, because this is utter and complete nonsense. Both the Pearl in DAO and the Blooming Rose in DA2 had both male and female prostitutes and catered to both men and women clients. My point exactly! But there seems to be some double standard where men could be "objectified" and nobody really cares, but once women in games become objectified sex objects, it is a big deal. Notice how no one ever complains about Kratos or any other main game character and how their proportions are not realistic and how they are being sexualized etc. But once it comes to a female character with unreal proportions and being sexualized, then the gaming industry is sexist. So for some, they were willing to ignore the fact that men were also prostitutes in those brothels and somehow just focus on the females. What are you even talking about? Has anyone on this thread, even mentioned female objectification as a reason for the Brothel's removal. |
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midnight tea
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Post by midnight tea on Oct 15, 2017 22:43:05 GMT
Okay so I've been trying to stay out of this thread because when I was in it earlier I allowed myself to get overly heated in my arguments and it got to the point where it wasn't constructive or good for anyone. But I've got to interject here, because this is utter and complete nonsense. Both the Pearl in DAO and the Blooming Rose in DA2 had both male and female prostitutes and catered to both men and women clients. My point exactly! But there seems to be some double standard where men could be "objectified" and nobody really cares, but once women in games become objectified sex objects, it is a big deal. Notice how no one ever complains about Kratos or any other main game character and how their proportions are not realistic and how they are being sexualized etc. But once it comes to a female character with unreal proportions and being sexualized, then the gaming industry is sexist. Problem with your argument is that Kratos' major reason of design or existence isn't to titillate the viewer. Not many would have much of an objection if the only issue was that a character had unreal or stylized or ideal proportions - a great deal of characters do regardless. But Kratos doesn't exist to be leered over and in fact his bulky physique is to attract the male audience, as it's not there to sexualize him, but to underline his masculinity and all the manly stuff he can do. The issue aren't proportions. The issue is how character is framed or what purpose they serve in the story - or what their design serves in the story. An in that regard sorry, but there is a serious disproportion between males and females across medias. Nevermind the whole history of treating women like literal objects to be there to please and serve. And sorry, but gaming industry still has problems with sexistm. Again, this isn't just about unrealistic proportions - that is small potatoes. The issue is how those proportions are utilized, or how characters of given gender are utilized across the game. And we still have games in which females exist is to be predominantly objects or prize or... well, this, to give a glaring example: So far you were the only one I recall that intentionally ignored the fact that men were also prostitutes in order to try and steer the thread into this direction. None of the stuff you do is subtle, Jazz. None. |
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formerfiend
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, Mass Effect Andromeda
PSN: Former_Fiend
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Post by formerfiend on Oct 15, 2017 22:46:52 GMT
Since it's been, I don't even know, twenty pages or more since I've posted in this thread, I'm going to try and convey my original point as calmly and clearly as I can.
I want, as always, a wider array of options with which to play my character and convey that character's personality. I do not want another game where the developers declare, absent my input, that my character cares about the societal expectations placed on them by their position that they won't stray from them, however much they may complain about them.
If the reason that brothels weren't included in DAI is that as the Herald of Andraste/Inquisitor, it would be a PR nightmare for our character to be caught in a brothel, I would have preferred that they include that option and allow us to deal with the consequences of our actions rather than dictating that our character just isn't the type of person to even consider visiting a brothel.
And regardless of intent on the part of Bioware, I do believe that that is the effective statement. As it stands in DAI I'm not allowed to express that my character is a free loving sex maniac. The only way I have to play my character as such is to, paradoxically, have them abstain from all sexual relationships available to them in game.
And I am concerned that this is going to repeat itself in DA4.
Maybe these concerns are unfounded. Maybe my character will be able to voice their desire to visit a brothel or hit on every tavern girl they come across only to be blocked by a party member reminding them that they don't have time for such distractions. Maybe they'll make up for the lack of brothels by having more casual encounters outside of the romances, or maybe one of the romances will be built around a healthy casual sex relationship instead of an ultra romantic lovestory for a change.
However, I have no faith in Bioware to actually deliver on any of that. There trend has been towards less choice, less expression, more defined characters with more narrow moral, ethical spectrum. I have no reason to believe that they'll deliver on something I'll enjoy in this department come DA4, I have no reason to give them the benefit of the doubt. The onus is on them to prove me wrong, not on me to have faith in them to do so.
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