xMissWoox
N2
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda
Origin: XMissWooX
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Post by xMissWoox on Oct 16, 2017 19:50:11 GMT
Never saw much point to the brothels in DAO and DA2. Outside of the quests that required you to go there, I forgot they even existed. I'd prefer a larger and more dynamic tavern instead. Drunkards, singers, dancers, servers, customers, gamblers, thugs, etc. which make the place feel more alive.
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Post by DragonKingReborn on Oct 16, 2017 19:53:38 GMT
Never saw much point to the brothels in DAO and DA2. Outside of the quests that required you to go there, I forgot they even existed. I'd prefer a larger and more dynamic tavern instead. Drunkards, singers, dancers, servers, customers, gamblers, thugs, etc. which make the place feel more alive. That's actually a reasonable point. Not that Thedas is 'set' in any real time period of our world, but back in a time analogous of Thedas the tavern seems to have often been a 'multi-purpose' "adult entertainment" location. So yes - a living breathing tavern with all that that entails would be good, even if there isn't a story reason to go there. Now that I say it, though, I can just imagine that Wicked Grace becomes a playable mini-game....
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xMissWoox
N2
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda
Origin: XMissWooX
Posts: 135 Likes: 473
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Post by xMissWoox on Oct 16, 2017 20:09:47 GMT
Never saw much point to the brothels in DAO and DA2. Outside of the quests that required you to go there, I forgot they even existed. I'd prefer a larger and more dynamic tavern instead. Drunkards, singers, dancers, servers, customers, gamblers, thugs, etc. which make the place feel more alive. That's actually a reasonable point. Not that Thedas is 'set' in any real time period of our world, but back in a time analogous of Thedas the tavern seems to have often been a 'multi-purpose' "adult entertainment" location. So yes - a living breathing tavern with all that that entails would be good, even if there isn't a story reason to go there. Now that I say it, though, I can just imagine that Wicked Grace becomes a playable mini-game.... That was actually something I was thinking of when I wrote that. Those gamblers invited you to a game of Wicked Grace, they promise you could double your money if you play your cards right... That barmaid over there has been giving you bedroom eyes all night, why not go over and have a flirt? That shady bunch in the corner have a smuggling job they want you to do, could make some good money... The rowdy group by the fire have had a bit too much to drink and start a barfight, feel free to pick a side and jump right in...
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Post by DragonKingReborn on Oct 16, 2017 20:13:01 GMT
That's actually a reasonable point. Not that Thedas is 'set' in any real time period of our world, but back in a time analogous of Thedas the tavern seems to have often been a 'multi-purpose' "adult entertainment" location. So yes - a living breathing tavern with all that that entails would be good, even if there isn't a story reason to go there. Now that I say it, though, I can just imagine that Wicked Grace becomes a playable mini-game.... That was actually something I was thinking of when I wrote that. Those gamblers invited you to a game of Wicked Grace, they promise you could double your money if you play your cards right... That barmaid over there has been giving you bedroom eyes all night, why not go over and have a flirt? That shady bunch in the corner have a smuggling job they want you to do, could make some good money... The rowdy group by the fire have had a bit too much to drink and start a barfight, feel free to pick a side and jump right in... Yep - content that some players might never see. That is what makes an 'open world' feel real. None of it necessarily important to the plot of the game, it's just...there.
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formerfiend
N3
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, Mass Effect Andromeda
PSN: Former_Fiend
Posts: 547 Likes: 956
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Post by formerfiend on Oct 16, 2017 20:15:00 GMT
Does it allow me to play my character as a sleezy whore monger or loveable sex maniac? Then it serves a purpose. I guess I have a hard time understanding why that is so important (relative to any other choice you could theoretically make). Your example, a couple pages ago, poses theoretical repurcussions for a sex maniac Inquisitor who doesn't listen to the counsel of his advisors and visits a brothel. That specific instance could be intriguing. But, for DAO and DA2, the brothels and your choice to use them are isolated from the rest of the game. It doesn't provoke any consequence from the narrative. Any reaction from your companions for sexual promiscuity are, at the most, an eye roll or a joke. And I believe that's only designated to non-prostitute activities. Theoretically, you could give your PC any number of traits that the narrative doesn't react to. And the devs can only give us so many scenarios in which we can showcase those traits. Why is "sex maniac" so much more important than "card player" or "avid reader" that you can't just head-canon it? Spite's a large part of it, if I'm honest. I hate the image that they force us to conform to in Inquisition and would have appreciated more active ways to rebel against it. It's also why I would have liked a "Slap everyone who calls you the Herald of Andraste" mod like how they had a slap Morrigan mod back in the day. Or I would if I played on PC and mods were an option. But yeah, I brought up head-canon'ing like thirty pages ago, pointing out that the only option for playing a hedonistic straight-male Inquisitor is to flirt with Harding and headcanon that every time you go to the Black Emporium to buy something you pop over to the Blooming Rose while you're in town. Which is all well and good but as far as the game is concerned my character may as well be taking a vow of celibacy. And I find something wrong when the actions to roleplay "hedonistic lovable sex maniac" and "vow of chastity" are the same thing. But that's just me. On that note I would actually like them to put in a Wicked Grace mini-game that you can play whenever you want instead of just having the one cutscene game that we're destined to lose unless we're cuddling Josephine and she lets us win. And "avid reader" is pretty much covered and borderline non-optional given all the codex entries our character reads, and outside of that having the option to - along with everyone and their mothers - have read Varric's books, and it being the best explanation for a few of the knowledge perks.
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Post by river82 on Oct 16, 2017 20:30:35 GMT
Not that Thedas is 'set' in any real time period of our world, but back in a time analogous of Thedas the tavern seems to have often been a 'multi-purpose' "adult entertainment" location. So yes - a living breathing tavern with all that that entails would be good, even if there isn't a story reason to go there. I'm pretty sure this isn't the case. Taverns were always dangerous and disgusting places offering their beds to lower class people (I'm pretty sure they were only allowed to serve foods to paying guests) and the nobles would always stay at a friends house when travelling. The idea of a huge food hall with plenty of merriment is, I'm pretty sure, a fantasy thing
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Post by cloud9 on Oct 16, 2017 21:28:51 GMT
Here's the thing. They served the purpose of showing what kind of world DA takes place it. Brothels, prostitution, and probably bed slaves are a part of this dark, twisted fantasy we enjoy exploring. If those things weren't there, it takes some of the mystery, the bizzare, and grotesque out of the world. And I believe the world is lesser for it. Dont expect game or movie renditions of sex workers to mirror your own personal experience with them. Just like nothing else in DA directly mirrors the real world. I live in Asia and have seen and met my fair share of prositutes as well. When they're on the job, they are actually pretty close to the DA2 representation. DA2 and DA:O prostitution wasn't dark, though. Nope they're boring, have no imagination, and bland.
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Post by cloud9 on Oct 16, 2017 21:33:07 GMT
The brothels in Origins and 2 served no purpose . They're a waste of resources, and as someone who has known sex workers in real life, I consider their portrayal of sex workers and the industry to be reductive and offensive. If BioWare is not capable of tackling the subject matter in a respectful and nuanced way, then I'm glad that they aren't coming back. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean that people should not like it because you don't like it. And prostitutes get PAID for sex so it's a win win situation for the client and the prostitute. People give sex for free but paying for sex is a no-no??? 😕😟
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Iakus
N7
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
Posts: 21,290 Likes: 50,647
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Post by Iakus on Oct 16, 2017 21:46:45 GMT
Okay, I'm starting to get the feeling some people are putting WAY too much thought into brothels in video games...
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Post by vallixas on Oct 16, 2017 23:16:31 GMT
Expecting brothels in North American productions in 2017. Especially from a Canadian one? Literally the most sjw country, in the most sjw city in the continent? Uwotm8. Only westerners who have the balls to do that in 2017 are in Europe or are all indie. I actually just got done playing an rpg that had prostitutes and a legit portrayal of life in the slums from a French developer I believe. Don't ever expect that from a triple A American/Canadian studio though. Bethesda also has gotten a lot more PC since the likes of Morrowind. Inb4 Rockstar, spoiler alert they're British. Times are different, the culture and what's acceptable is different.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Oct 17, 2017 1:05:45 GMT
The brothels in Origins and 2 served no purpose . They're a waste of resources, and as someone who has known sex workers in real life, I consider their portrayal of sex workers and the industry to be reductive and offensive. If BioWare is not capable of tackling the subject matter in a respectful and nuanced way, then I'm glad that they aren't coming back. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean that people should not like it because you don't like it. And prostitutes get PAID for sex so it's a win win situation for the client and the prostitute. People give sex for free but paying for sex is a no-no??? 😕😟 None of this has anything to do with what I said.
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Post by smilesja on Oct 17, 2017 1:10:41 GMT
With some people, you would think Bioware is doing this:
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Post by pessimistpanda on Oct 17, 2017 1:12:40 GMT
Does it allow me to play my character as a sleezy whore monger or loveable sex maniac? Then it serves a purpose. By that logic, BioWare should implement a near-infinite number of other features and environments so that everyone can play precisely the character they want to.
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Post by phoray on Oct 17, 2017 2:27:15 GMT
In Flotsom, Witcher 2, the Tavern had a second floor that was rented out to a Brothel Madam for use. the main floor was for drinking. The basement was for Gambling on Fist Fights and a few more rooms for the Brothel ladies to rent.
I think when actual guests wanted to stay and pay for a whole room, they would just repurpose a brothel room for temporary hotel type use.
In this way, we have a multipurpose building offering lots of role play opportunities and frankly, it was the liveliest building in the whole town. the rest of the buildings, most you couldn't enter, were where Merchants and Nobles/Leaders lived.
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Post by Gwydden on Oct 17, 2017 2:54:06 GMT
Not that Thedas is 'set' in any real time period of our world, but back in a time analogous of Thedas the tavern seems to have often been a 'multi-purpose' "adult entertainment" location. So yes - a living breathing tavern with all that that entails would be good, even if there isn't a story reason to go there. I'm pretty sure this isn't the case. Taverns were always dangerous and disgusting places offering their beds to lower class people (I'm pretty sure they were only allowed to serve foods to paying guests) and the nobles would always stay at a friends house when travelling. The idea of a huge food hall with plenty of merriment is, I'm pretty sure, a fantasy thing But taverns are not for staying in. Medieval taverns would just be the house of some well-to-do person which would provide entertainment in the form of drinks, food, music, and yes, prostitutes. People didn't sleep there, any more than today someone would go to a bar and ask for a bed to crash in. Now, the Middle Ages were a long period and things varied from place to place, but broadly speaking 1. brothels were not a thing, because it was a much sounder business decision to provide more than one form of entertainment at a time, and 2. inns were not a thing; travelers would have to stay with someone able and willing to invite them into their house. The fantasy inn is based on The Green Dragon and The Prancing Pony from TLotR, but the Shire and Bree are not medieval at all. They are based on the British countryside around the turn of the nineteenth to twentieth centuries, the sort of environment where Tolkien grew up in. Chances are he knew better than to include inns in his more medieval settings, such as Rohan and Gondor. His imitators obviously don't. And I would like to stress that the Middle Ages were neither particularly dirty nor especially grim. People went to taverns and had fun. They washed their teeth and changed their clothes. Medieval times might seem awful from a modern perspective, but no more so than pretty much any historical period prior to the twentieth century. The "Grimdark Middle Ages" is a myth created by Renaissance snobs and perpetuated by edgy fantasy authors. It is no more real than the Utopian Middle Ages created by Victorian snobs and perpetuated by naive fantasy authors.
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Post by river82 on Oct 17, 2017 3:25:13 GMT
I'm pretty sure this isn't the case. Taverns were always dangerous and disgusting places offering their beds to lower class people (I'm pretty sure they were only allowed to serve foods to paying guests) and the nobles would always stay at a friends house when travelling. The idea of a huge food hall with plenty of merriment is, I'm pretty sure, a fantasy thing But taverns are not for staying in. Medieval taverns would just be the house of some well-to-do person which would provide entertainment in the form of drinks, food, music, and yes, prostitutes. People didn't sleep there, any more than today someone would go to a bar and ask for a bed to crash in. Now, the Middle Ages were a long period and things varied from place to place, but broadly speaking 1. brothels were not a thing, because it was a much sounder business decision to provide more than one form of entertainment at a time, and 2. inns were not a thing; travelers would have to stay with someone able and willing to invite them into their house. The fantasy inn is based on The Green Dragon and The Prancing Pony from TLotR, but the Shire and Bree are not medieval at all. They are based on the British countryside around the turn of the nineteenth to twentieth centuries, the sort of environment where Tolkien grew up in. Chances are he knew better than to include inns in his more medieval settings, such as Rohan and Gondor. His imitators obviously don't. And I would like to stress that the Middle Ages were neither particularly dirty nor especially grim. People went to taverns and had fun. They washed their teeth and changed their clothes. Medieval times might seem awful from a modern perspective, but no more so than pretty much any historical period prior to the twentieth century. The "Grimdark Middle Ages" is a myth created by Renaissance snobs and perpetuated by edgy fantasy authors. It is no more real than the Utopian Middle Ages created by Victorian snobs and perpetuated by naive fantasy authors. Ah, I took "tavern" to mean "inn", my mistake. The Middle Ages were actually quite dirty and grim. Towns in particular were quite, quite fragrant cities especially. Think of it this way, the only form of transportation other than by foot was by horse, horses have to shit, that shit has very little places to go. There was shit everywhere in the middle ages, which gets trekked in to houses, and stuck to clothes. It was not allowed to empty chamber pots out of windows, yet people did. Rotten food and animal tidbits were left to rot in the street. That's not mentioning hygiene (which was poor) and that some people thought bathing was unhealthy for you (which to be fair if you saw the state of the Thames at the time, for example, you'd probably think so too.) And yeah, it was grim. Let's forget crime for a second and talk about health and food. People of the Middle Ages relied entirely on nature. A few seasons of poor harvest could mean famine with multitudes dying. Shit everywhere means disease and no sophisticated medicine meant no defense against airborne diseases which result in multitudes dying. You were lucky if your child reached the age of 7. Then you get to violence of which there was plenty, and if you get caught punishments were horrible. It's a modern conception that "jail" is used as a punishment, back in the "old days" jail was used as a place to store people until they were punished which often ended up being some form of torturous activity. There's a romanticism of the Middle Ages because people of today, who live in comparative luxury, have difficulty conceiving the day to day struggle life was back then and how bad it actually was.
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Post by river82 on Oct 17, 2017 3:30:36 GMT
I'm pretty sure this isn't the case. Taverns were always dangerous and disgusting places offering their beds to lower class people (I'm pretty sure they were only allowed to serve foods to paying guests) and the nobles would always stay at a friends house when travelling. The idea of a huge food hall with plenty of merriment is, I'm pretty sure, a fantasy thing But taverns are not for staying in. Medieval taverns would just be the house of some well-to-do person which would provide entertainment in the form of drinks, food, music, and yes, prostitutes. People didn't sleep there, any more than today someone would go to a bar and ask for a bed to crash in. Now, the Middle Ages were a long period and things varied from place to place, but broadly speaking 1. brothels were not a thing, because it was a much sounder business decision to provide more than one form of entertainment at a time, and 2. inns were not a thing; travelers would have to stay with someone able and willing to invite them into their house. The fantasy inn is based on The Green Dragon and The Prancing Pony from TLotR, but the Shire and Bree are not medieval at all. They are based on the British countryside around the turn of the nineteenth to twentieth centuries, the sort of environment where Tolkien grew up in. Chances are he knew better than to include inns in his more medieval settings, such as Rohan and Gondor. His imitators obviously don't. And I would like to stress that the Middle Ages were neither particularly dirty nor especially grim. People went to taverns and had fun. They washed their teeth and changed their clothes. Medieval times might seem awful from a modern perspective, but no more so than pretty much any historical period prior to the twentieth century. The "Grimdark Middle Ages" is a myth created by Renaissance snobs and perpetuated by edgy fantasy authors. It is no more real than the Utopian Middle Ages created by Victorian snobs and perpetuated by naive fantasy authors. Also brothels and inns were both things in the Middle Ages. There's plenty of documentation of those places, and I really have no idea where you got ... well, this idea. It's quite false.
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Post by river82 on Oct 17, 2017 3:40:22 GMT
I'm pretty sure this isn't the case. Taverns were always dangerous and disgusting places offering their beds to lower class people (I'm pretty sure they were only allowed to serve foods to paying guests) and the nobles would always stay at a friends house when travelling. The idea of a huge food hall with plenty of merriment is, I'm pretty sure, a fantasy thing 1. brothels were not a thing, because it was a much sounder business decision to provide more than one form of entertainment at a time, and 2. inns were not a thing; travelers would have to stay with someone able and willing to invite them into their house. The fantasy inn is based on The Green Dragon and The Prancing Pony from TLotR, but the Shire and Bree are not medieval at all. They are based on the British countryside around the turn of the nineteenth to twentieth centuries, the sort of environment where Tolkien grew up in. Chances are he knew better than to include inns in his more medieval settings, such as Rohan and Gondor. His imitators obviously don't. And I would like to stress that the Middle Ages were neither particularly dirty nor especially grim. People went to taverns and had fun. They washed their teeth and changed their clothes. Medieval times might seem awful from a modern perspective, but no more so than pretty much any historical period prior to the twentieth century. The "Grimdark Middle Ages" is a myth created by Renaissance snobs and perpetuated by edgy fantasy authors. It is no more real than the Utopian Middle Ages created by Victorian snobs and perpetuated by naive fantasy authors. The Bankside Stews, for example, were notorious in the Middle Ages. Stews were, of course, what brothels were called back in the day. And in 1161 Henry the 2nd would regulate that industry: - stewholders were to be married and the premises to be used as brothels only - it was forbidden to sell food and drink - pregnant and married women and women of religion were forbidden to offer their services at stewhouse - the wife of a stewholder was not allowed to offer herself or to entice customers - stewholders were not allowed to hold a customer against his will or to seize his goods - the women of the stews were forbidden to wear an apron which was considered a sign of respectability - they were forbidden to grab a man or his clothing as he passed or to obstruct him in any way. This restricted soliciting, the woman was supposed to sit passively by the door or by the window and to wait for the customer take the initiative - a prostitute was not allowed a paramour. This would limit the practice of pimping - a woman was to be evicted from the stewhouse if she was pregnant, suffered from ”the burning sickness”, married or a woman of religious orders - there was to be a quarterly inspection by officials and if it was discovered a woman was held there under duress, she would be free to leave. These regulations would be pointless if brothels were not a thing. And while travel boomed in the renaissance and inns exploded in popularity during that time, they most certainly existed during the Middle Ages.
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Post by river82 on Oct 17, 2017 3:56:55 GMT
2. inns were not a thing; travelers would have to stay with someone able and willing to invite them into their house. The warm welcome generally extended to travelers comes with some unwritten rules. Firstly, you must respect the property of your host. Secondly, your host is legally responsible for you during your stay. Therefore at a monastery, manor house, or inn you will be expected to surrender your sword and any other weapons you are carrying. When staying at a private home, it is simply courteous to offer your sword to the master of the house. Thirdly, if you die in someone else’s house, the goods with you automatically become his property. The last rule is to avoid outstaying your welcome. As the old saying goes, after three days, two things begin to smell: fish and uninvited guests.Inns Inns are perhaps the most obvious places to seek accommodation, but that does not mean they are all welcoming, homely establishments. They are businesses built on necessity—the very opposite of luxury hotels. The number of visitors to a town is never dependent on the number of inns; rather the opposite is true. If you have an offer of a bed in a private house, you would be well advised to take it. The harsh practicalities of running an inn are reflected in the personages and figures of those who choose to make their living in the trade. Innkeepers are often stout, no-nonsense men, built like bears and familiar with the tricks of thieves, peddlers, beggars, and ruffians. If a traveler loses all his money in a game of dice, his pleas of poverty will fall on deaf ears when the time comes for him to pay his bill. The landlord will turn him out without his possessions, his horse, and even without his clothes if there is no other way of making good the loss. Likewise, if a traveler causes trouble at an inn, he is thrown out onto the dark streets, to be found either by a cutpurse, cutthroat, or the town watch. And, as if a rowdy clientele is not enough, an innkeeper also has to deal with the local authorities who regulate the trade. They expect him to comply with the fair prices set for food and to take responsibility for his inebriated and sometimes violent guests. It is not an easy way of making a living.
Finding a bed at an inn is not always straightforward. It is up to you to convince an innkeeper that it is worth his while accommodating you. In some towns, the bylaws require innkeepers to offer every visitor a bed, whether they arrive on foot or on horseback. The very need for such bylaws is a reminder that landlords often refuse people accommodation. If you arrive on horseback, especially if you have sent a servant on ahead to make inquiries on your behalf, you will have no difficulty obtaining a place to stay, if there is space. If you arrive on foot, a landlord can get around the bylaw by claiming that you are a vagrant. If you look as if you are poor, and might not be able to pay your bill, the chances are that you will not be offered a bed. As many landlords are fond of pointing out, inns do not exist for the sake of charity. If you want charity, go to a monastery.From The Time Traveller's guide to medieval England, which is one of the more approachable books for the period.
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formerfiend
N3
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, Mass Effect Andromeda
PSN: Former_Fiend
Posts: 547 Likes: 956
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Post by formerfiend on Oct 17, 2017 4:56:39 GMT
Does it allow me to play my character as a sleezy whore monger or loveable sex maniac? Then it serves a purpose. By that logic, BioWare should implement a near-infinite number of other features and environments so that everyone can play precisely the character they want to. I understand that resources are finite and that there is a limit to what can practically be done. That doesn't mean I don't want them to push that limit as far as they fucking can, though.
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Post by alanc9 on Oct 17, 2017 5:47:41 GMT
But for any non-infinite amount of dev time, some things will be in and some things will be out. That's why we're discussing priorities.
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Post by river82 on Oct 17, 2017 5:56:06 GMT
I'll be happy with Bioware if they just include an atmospheric, vibrant major city. I think I've been pretty outspoken over my overwhelming disappointment with VR in Inquisition
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formerfiend
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, Mass Effect Andromeda
PSN: Former_Fiend
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formerfiend
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by formerfiend on Oct 17, 2017 7:21:41 GMT
They can always not spend those resources on a heavy-handed musical number.
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pessimistpanda
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Post by pessimistpanda on Oct 17, 2017 9:20:39 GMT
They can always not spend those resources on a heavy-handed musical number. I think the entirity of DA4 should be a musical. I can picture the opening number right now. There goes the slaver with his slaves, like always. Making their lives a living hell! They protest their abuse But it's never any use In the squirming vipers' nest of Minrathous!
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dragonkingreborn
http://bsn.boards.net/threads/recent/143
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Post by DragonKingReborn on Oct 17, 2017 9:26:47 GMT
They can always not spend those resources on a heavy-handed musical number. I think the entirity of DA4 should be a musical. I can picture the opening number right now. There goes the slaver with his slaves, like always. Making their lives a living hell! They protest their abuse But it's never any use In the squirming vipers' nest of Minrathous!Patrick? Patrick Weekes? I've got my eye on you Panda.
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