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Post by Deleted on Nov 21, 2017 2:45:36 GMT
The fixes that were enacted were rather more extensive than fixing the bugs. The extra budget for the full revamp of the animations, the additional romance, the rework of the character creator had to come from somewhere. None of it was game-breaking, and in the long run did not turn the public opinion around. I do speculate here, but it was very obvious that DLC was planned, and the only money we know about that went into new content that were verifyiable allocated for this purpose was the 6 months of MP maintenance that yielded a few new maps and kits. After which time we all saw due to the transparency of the descision that the new budget was not allocated. It is reasonable to assume that the DLC budget was spent on the 4 month of upgrades that became patch 1.10.
I do not think that entitled behavoir is commendable, and the attitude of deserving something rather than being greatful, be that a consumer dispute or something else, will eventually bite everyone who displays it in the butt. That’s the only consolation I have for now.
Where I would definetly lay blame is in calling others to boycott Anthem, or wishing on it to fail simply because of past grudge, such as ME3 ending or BF2 MTX.
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Post by Gandalf the Fabulous on Nov 21, 2017 2:55:32 GMT
Where I would definetly lay blame is in calling others to boycott Anthem, or wishing on it to fail simply because of past grudge, such as ME3 ending or BF2 MTX. The only way a boycott of Anthem can succeed is if others agree with their point of view, people don't boycott things just because some rando on the internet told them to and if others agree with the reason for the boycott then to them the boycott is justified, just because others boycott a game does not mean you have to and if you still want to buy the game I am sure nobody will stop you. Besides do you not think that people should be informed about the horrible practices infecting these games before they make a purchase? Or do you think gamers should just remain quiet and let the rest of the public just go in blind and find out about these issues after they purchase the game?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 21, 2017 3:04:42 GMT
Where I would definetly lay blame is in calling others to boycott Anthem, or wishing on it to fail simply because of past grudge, such as ME3 ending or BF2 MTX. The only way a boycott of Anthem can succeed is if others agree with their point of view, people don't boycott things just because some rando on the internet told them to and if others agree with the reason for the boycott then to them the boycott is justified, just because others boycott a game does not mean you have to and if you still want to buy the game I am sure nobody will stop you. Propaganda swayed people to make poorer choices than not to purchase and enjoy a decent Videogame. Unfortunately. What can one do, but to bow to the masses. When they finally achieve their goal of yelling BioWare off the market for every little nitpick, well, I hope they are happy that they finally murdered something unique and special, and feel vindicated for not seeing Shepard triumphantly stomp reapers with his boots. I do not believe in mantra that if it’s good, they will buy it, particularly in an mp oriented game where the most important factor are others buying it as well at the same time you do, and large community.
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Post by Gandalf the Fabulous on Nov 21, 2017 3:13:23 GMT
The only way a boycott of Anthem can succeed is if others agree with their point of view, people don't boycott things just because some rando on the internet told them to and if others agree with the reason for the boycott then to them the boycott is justified, just because others boycott a game does not mean you have to and if you still want to buy the game I am sure nobody will stop you. Propaganda swayed people to make poorer choices than not to purchase and enjoy a decent Videogame. Unfortunately. What can one do, but to bow to the masses. When they finally achieve their goal of yelling BioWare off the market for every little nitpick, well, I hope they are happy that they finally murdered something unique and special, and feel vindicated for not seeing Shepard triumphantly stomp reapers with his boots. Gamers themselves aren't the only ones trying to sway hearts and minds over what to buy and what not to buy, pretty sure that is why most publishers have marketing departments, pretty sure for every successful consumer revolt there are more than a dozen successful marketing campaigns that succeed in convincing people that they need to buy into and support useless crap that goes against their best interests. Not going to shed a tear for EA having the market forces swayed against them especially with all the tools they have at their disposal to sway it in their favor. Eh it is more of a generalization true and while there are certain games and products that don't quite get the recognition they deserve for the most part it is pretty hard to fuck up a sales pitch for something good that people want especially if you have the sort of resources EA has.
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Post by Cyonan on Nov 21, 2017 3:32:30 GMT
The mass histeria on the internet contributed to moving the funds allocated to the DLC to fixing the serviceable game and adding an option that was not strictly necessary. That money reinvestment changed nothing, as the work went unappreciated and did not change anyone’s opinion, not even the tiny group that was specifically given exactly what they asked, while not rewarding those few who actually liked the game and did not complain with anything but gloating from those very people that killed Andromeda over the net. Just like EA’s descision to remove MTX due to the feedback pretty much immediately did not turn anyone’s opinion around and in fact only incited people further because they are entitled rather than greatful. Has anyone at all of those who yelled the loudest said: Good move, thank you! So, what’s the point? Nobody makes games like BioWare’s. Nobody. The only people who are going to lose are quiet folks who just enjoy games they like, because of the lobby. Why can’t they just simply don’t buy games? Why rile up some movement? I don’t like 99.9% games out there, but I don’t go campaigning against them or participate in internet rallies against developers like Sony. I mean, if Sony multiplatformed HZD, i’d Have said thank you and bought the game. does that mean that instead of being civil what I need to do is go screaming and cursing all over the net because the only way to get what you want is to threaten? Yes, players put Obsidian back in bussiness, but they no longer can make the contemporary games, so corporate support is necessary as well. The reason why we're not grateful to EA for Battlefront 2 and removing MTs is because of two things: 1. EA stated that the removal of the MTs isn't a permanent change. They're going to come back and we'll be right back at square 1. 2. The game is blatantly designed around exploiting them. Somebody calculated that it would take ~4500 hours to unlock everything. That means if you play 8 hours a day it will still take you just over a year and a half to get everything. Keep in mind that these aren't just cosmetics we're talking about either. These are things that affect how strong you are, in a PvP game where the people who bought it are going to have it and be stronger than you. This is also not the first time EA has done shit like this, and many of us are just tired of it and we're aware of the fact that EA doesn't care about all the well reasoned posts we make on internet forums. The only thing that got them to even budge the slightest on it was causing such a controversy that it started to cause concerned about it hurting their sales numbers. When it comes to games like ME:A it's far less offensive because I simply found it mediocre. I even noted to my friend when we were talking about it the other day that if you removed the Mass Effect theme from it and replaced BioWare's name on the box with a new developer I'd probably have said "It's a pretty decent start, but it needs work especially in the animation department". but the game also carried a certain expectation with it having the Mass Effect label on it, and changing up the formula from the OT to be more like "Inquisition in space" was never not going to piss people off. People were mad at the removal of RPG elements from the second game as well. If you want to change up the core formula of an established IP, it needs to be a very good game because you're gonna piss off a lot of previous fans. People campaign against it because they want Mass Effect to go back to being the thing they loved, not the new direction it took with ME:A. If it had been an entirely different IP the only people hating on it would have been the usual "BioWare isn't still making Baldur's Gate style games! how dare they!" people and those making fun of animations, because you can't stop the internet meme machine.
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Post by Sanunes on Nov 21, 2017 7:07:13 GMT
The mass histeria on the internet contributed to moving the funds allocated to the DLC to fixing the serviceable game and adding an option that was not strictly necessary. That money reinvestment changed nothing, as the work went unappreciated and did not change anyone’s opinion, not even the tiny group that was specifically given exactly what they asked, while not rewarding those few who actually liked the game and did not complain with anything but gloating from those very people that killed Andromeda over the net. Just like EA’s descision to remove MTX due to the feedback pretty much immediately did not turn anyone’s opinion around and in fact only incited people further because they are entitled rather than greatful. Has anyone at all of those who yelled the loudest said: Good move, thank you! So, what’s the point? Nobody makes games like BioWare’s. Nobody. The only people who are going to lose are quiet folks who just enjoy games they like, because of the lobby. Why can’t they just simply don’t buy games? Why rile up some movement? I don’t like 99.9% games out there, but I don’t go campaigning against them or participate in internet rallies against developers like Sony. I mean, if Sony multiplatformed HZD, i’d Have said thank you and bought the game. does that mean that instead of being civil what I need to do is go screaming and cursing all over the net because the only way to get what you want is to threaten? Yes, players put Obsidian back in bussiness, but they no longer can make the contemporary games, so corporate support is necessary as well. The reason why we're not grateful to EA for Battlefront 2 and removing MTs is because of two things: 1. EA stated that the removal of the MTs isn't a permanent change. They're going to come back and we'll be right back at square 1. 2. The game is blatantly designed around exploiting them. Somebody calculated that it would take ~4500 hours to unlock everything. That means if you play 8 hours a day it will still take you just over a year and a half to get everything. Keep in mind that these aren't just cosmetics we're talking about either. These are things that affect how strong you are, in a PvP game where the people who bought it are going to have it and be stronger than you. This is also not the first time EA has done shit like this, and many of us are just tired of it and we're aware of the fact that EA doesn't care about all the well reasoned posts we make on internet forums. The only thing that got them to even budge the slightest on it was causing such a controversy that it started to cause concerned about it hurting their sales numbers. When it comes to games like ME:A it's far less offensive because I simply found it mediocre. I even noted to my friend when we were talking about it the other day that if you removed the Mass Effect theme from it and replaced BioWare's name on the box with a new developer I'd probably have said "It's a pretty decent start, but it needs work especially in the animation department". but the game also carried a certain expectation with it having the Mass Effect label on it, and changing up the formula from the OT to be more like "Inquisition in space" was never not going to piss people off. People were mad at the removal of RPG elements from the second game as well. If you want to change up the core formula of an established IP, it needs to be a very good game because you're gonna piss off a lot of previous fans. People campaign against it because they want Mass Effect to go back to being the thing they loved, not the new direction it took with ME:A. If it had been an entirely different IP the only people hating on it would have been the usual "BioWare isn't still making Baldur's Gate style games! how dare they!" people and those making fun of animations, because you can't stop the internet meme machine. I am just going to comment on your Mass Effect comments and I completely agree Mass Effect: Andromeda was a generic game and really didn't feel that much like the other three. At the same time I fully expect that because it wasn't BioWare Edmonton making the game. The problems I had with the people being negative about it was not from the people that didn't like it based on its merits such as buggy quests or the facial animation and other thing in that nature. It was when people ran out of things to complain about and went down a path that included comments about pandering or "can't make Ryder white enough" and other comments that really make me thing they expect BioWare to make a game directly for their needs and wants in a game and ignore everyone else. Now I understand those probably aren't the majority of people, but the problem is with those people I felt I needed earplugs for they were far the loudest.
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Post by Amirit on Nov 21, 2017 10:41:37 GMT
I am just going to comment on your Mass Effect comments and I completely agree Mass Effect: Andromeda was a generic game and really didn't feel that much like the other three. At the same time I fully expect that because it wasn't BioWare Edmonton making the game. The problems I had with the people being negative about it was not from the people that didn't like it based on its merits such as buggy quests or the facial animation and other thing in that nature. It was when people ran out of things to complain about and went down a path that included comments about pandering or "can't make Ryder white enough" and other comments that really make me thing they expect BioWare to make a game directly for their needs and wants in a game and ignore everyone else. Now I understand those probably aren't the majority of people, but the problem is with those people I felt I needed earplugs for they were far the loudest. Then why are you sad? EA - not BW! - killed the biggest IP in BW's possession by giving that very important game to newbs after big management of previous versions of the game failed. EA - not BW! - noticed since ME3 that MP is popular and easy to monetise, adding MP everywhere, even to DA (DAI). EA - not BW! - switched all resources in BW to the MP game - Anthem and publicly declared that "SP is the thing from the past". There is no more "BW - SP King". That studio died after ME3. They tryed to stay on a position "SP with addition of MP" but as you see Anthem already is pure "MP with probably some SP campaign". You will not get any of your beloved "BW games" from that studio no matter weather Anthem falls or become a big hit. EA wants MP and MTX - this is it. You want story games with companions - Larian, Obsidian and some other small companies the only one who can help you. And I would not use "indie" as a swearing - it only means company is not bought yet by megalomaniac like EA. P.S. It's not "public opinion" and "loud trolls" who killed BW - it's EA and time of MPs that provide companies with more money than SPs.
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Post by Sartoz on Nov 21, 2017 11:39:17 GMT
-(_ANTHEM_)-
Some good "collateral damage" happened after that brouhaha with EA.
Another studio, maker of Need for Speed: Payback, had very similar P2W and flawed progression system via loot boxes and in-game purchases. However, the developer was smart enough to start making significant changes, "after community feedback" (ie: EA's blowup with in-your-face pay-me-to-win crap).... like increasing the reward amounts. Can't say if this makes it less grindy. Certes, it was a smart decision to make the game's MTs / progression more palatable. Those interested in the patch changes,
go here: https://www.reddit.com/r/needforspeed/comments/7dmi59/progression_updates_rolling_out/
This tells me that some studios are now sensitive to a possible predatory monetization scheme with their game(s) and are scaling back the greed. May be a temporary wake-up call, though.
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Post by Heimdall on Nov 21, 2017 12:27:01 GMT
Mostly just a sum up of the recent events, but you get the idea. The more this controversy hurts EA, the more hopeful I am that we’ll get better systems going forward.
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Post by mmoblitz on Nov 21, 2017 12:49:07 GMT
The mass histeria on the internet contributed to moving the funds allocated to the DLC to fixing the serviceable game and adding an option that was not strictly necessary. That money reinvestment changed nothing, as the work went unappreciated and did not change anyone’s opinion, not even the tiny group that was specifically given exactly what they asked, while not rewarding those few who actually liked the game and did not complain with anything but gloating from those very people that killed Andromeda over the net. Just like EA’s descision to remove MTX due to the feedback pretty much immediately did not turn anyone’s opinion around and in fact only incited people further because they are entitled rather than greatful. Has anyone at all of those who yelled the loudest said: Good move, thank you!So, what’s the point? Nobody makes games like BioWare’s. Nobody. The only people who are going to lose are quiet folks who just enjoy games they like, because of the lobby. Why can’t they just simply don’t buy games? Why rile up some movement? I don’t like 99.9% games out there, but I don’t go campaigning against them or participate in internet rallies against developers like Sony. I mean, if Sony multiplatformed HZD, i’d Have said thank you and bought the game. does that mean that instead of being civil what I need to do is go screaming and cursing all over the net because the only way to get what you want is to threaten? Yes, players put Obsidian back in bussiness, but they no longer can make the contemporary games, so corporate support is necessary as well. You miss the point. It's like Kevin Spacey or Al Franken apologizing for what they did. It rings hollow for me as I know they don't really mean it. I doubt they were too broken up about it when they had a handful, it's only after they got caught that they are sorry. Same with EA. They know what they were doing, but did it any way and why should I praise them for doing the right thing when they shouldn't have had them in the game in the first place? Here is a thought for EA, just lose the MTX and charge a monthly fee to play. Yes, that is going to trigger the internet, but what doesn't? If a game is good, people will pay to play. Simple really. Charge like 9 a month for one sub and lower that to 6 a month if you add more than one sub to your account. SO each pays 6. Still pretty cheap. That puts a limit though on how much people can spend on a game and the CFO already said he doesn't want limits on how much people can spend. Your right about nobody making games like Bioware. Not even Bioware can, anymore.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 21, 2017 13:24:39 GMT
I personally prefer sub model, but most people vehemently hate it, because a lot of people who play those games cannot afford reliably depositing the money for sub every month or feel that it is outrageous demand, no matter what it costs. They are impulse one time purchasers. In fact, the loudest people who speak around the MTX and subs are those who believe the games should be free or B2P and the peeps with unlimited time on their hands and skills should have the advantage over casuals. I have seen people rage over any advantage in progression, however minuscule that a sub or preferred status gives a player in an F2P title. The games that are sub only do not get enough players.
As for the quoted number of hours to unlock everything, I have seen worse. And you know what happens? The leet gleeful form their farming cooperatives and get everything in a matter of mere months, then start whining how game is no fun because of dumb casuals who won’t even put 10 hours a day in a premade farming extreme difficulty. Those few who are interested in paying to pawn, pay and pawn. The rest go and play what they can for a bit then leave.
There is no optimal solution to it in a game that in essence is just a ladder of grinding gear. Because the problem is the absence of meaningful content that is satisfying to play for a while even if your achievements and possessions are nowhere near 100% and never will be. ME3MP actually succeeded in that, and MEAMP might have had if it were funded.
Whatever else, I certainly hope for substance to be a part of Anthem. How they go about monetization is not a concern of mine compared to that. I am also not scared of the MP blending, again, as long as content is talented and has substances that makes me feel like I am adventuring, not farming gear. Swtor managed to provide me with this incredible experience of prolonging the active life of my favorite characters beyond running them through the story. I appreciate it about the MP that has a heart and substance vs soulless grind I have seen. ME MPs also gave me the acces to something bigger than the SP campaign, and more than counting down hours to full unlocks.
If it is not like that, then yes, I think you are correct, that’s it for BioWare. There are Spiders. And a couple of indie companies that make isometric unvoiced games of uneven quality due to severe budget constraints.
Finally, being greatful when you are given something you asked for is a graceful thing to do, no matter what preceded that giving. Turning back with “we fought for it! We earned it! Let’s beat ‘me up some more!” Is not the attitude I comprehend. It’s too entitled and low class for my tastes. Just like gloating and making a cheap PR stunt out of a competitor’s misfortune. It’s not righteous, not honorable, and I cannot respect that.
For many years we asked for more than one straight romance for a female PC. Then I left the gaming scene, came back years later, and wow, every game had at least two to chose from. I was thankful. I will never forget that. If BioWare is finally dissolved I will forever remember with gratitude that one company that for one incredible decade believed that someone like me might exist within their playerbase.
And that’s all I have to say. That I am greatful.
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Post by SofaJockey on Nov 21, 2017 14:34:14 GMT
This is my personal view (deep breath) Games are a business, investors have a stake in that, games need to be paid for. Games are cheaper now, than historically. uk.ign.com/articles/2013/10/15/the-real-cost-of-gaming-inflation-time-and-purchasing-powerBut the key is not: - Do we charge more than the assumed $60? but
- How do we do that without breaking the bloody game!
If there is a shitstorm, they got the 'how' wrong. If the model isn't predatory and publishers are honest, then people will pay more for aspects of a game that works. I don't begrudge paying a higher price up front if the offering is transparent and awesome, and I trust the publisher. I don't begrudge paying a little more* if the little more makes me feel good about buying it and doesn't stuff the game up for base players. *As long as the 'little more' is also decent value. Extras are price sensitive, I don't want to feel ripped off, if the content is good value, I'll probably end up spending more and be happy about it. The Battlefront II launch has become a model of how not to go about it.
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Post by mmoblitz on Nov 21, 2017 14:36:30 GMT
I much prefer the sub model myself and I know I'm probably in the minority now days. I would much rather pay one fee and have access to everything and know I don't have to pay more than that one set fee and everyone is on an even playing field as far as that goes. Time is the only thing that may not be equal.
Hybrid could work with MTX or a sub model that gives you access to everything would be fine, but the game will be balanced around the MTX model and not the sub model. That is just the way it is. As my cousin says {who works in the gaming industry, "MTX is a cancer and like all cancers it spreads easily and is hard to get rid of".
It's fine being grateful for what your given, but like I said above, I won't praise something that is gone only temporarily and is after the fact only because of pressure.
EA Ubisoft, Activision, SE, Warner Brothers, ect job is to make money for their investors and that is it. It's a devs job take the needs of the Publisher and balance that with the wants of the devs and that is usually a fun, exciting experience in playing their game. the problem you see recently with EA and other Publishers is that the wants of the Publishers trumps the wants of the devs and the games have a tendency to show that. Very few studios are able to balance the games out to satisfy their overlords and us gamers. Studios that fall under EA are seem have a real hard time doing that. Maybe they just don't have the right talent or EA gives them impossible goals, but the consumer side of things are what is suffering and many are tired of it.
What becomes of Anthem or DA4, remains to be seen. I'm hoping these last couple weeks will be a wake-up call to all publishers, but something tells me they may back off until the storm blows over then go right back into milk mode.
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Post by SofaJockey on Nov 21, 2017 14:44:51 GMT
Does anyone know what EA's next game release is?
That will be interesting to watch.
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Post by Pounce de León on Nov 21, 2017 15:10:34 GMT
This is my personal view (deep breath) Games are a business, investors have a stake in that, games need to be paid for. Games are cheaper now, than historically. uk.ign.com/articles/2013/10/15/the-real-cost-of-gaming-inflation-time-and-purchasing-powerBut the key is not: - Do we charge more than the assumed $60? but
- How do we do that without breaking the bloody game!
If there is a shitstorm, they got the 'how' wrong. If the model isn't predatory and publishers are honest, then people will pay more for aspects of a game that works. I don't begrudge paying a higher price up front if the offering is transparent and awesome, and I trust the publisher. I don't begrudge paying a little more* if the little more makes me feel good about buying it and doesn't stuff the game up for base players. *As long as the 'little more' is also decent value. Extras are price sensitive, I don't want to feel ripped off, if the content is good value, I'll probably end up spending more and be happy about it. The Battlefront II launch has become a model of how not to go about it. Key point right there. They forgot how to sell properly.
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Post by SofaJockey on Nov 21, 2017 15:30:44 GMT
Key point right there. They forgot how to sell properly. Quite right. I worked in 'sales' in the 80's... My manager taught me: - People hate being 'sold to'
- People quite like buying stuff they want to buy.
so...
- Don't try to 'sell' people things you want to sell.
- Help people to buy what they want to have.
That's not happening here.
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Post by Sanunes on Nov 21, 2017 16:26:42 GMT
This is my personal view (deep breath) Games are a business, investors have a stake in that, games need to be paid for. Games are cheaper now, than historically. uk.ign.com/articles/2013/10/15/the-real-cost-of-gaming-inflation-time-and-purchasing-powerBut the key is not: - Do we charge more than the assumed $60? but
- How do we do that without breaking the bloody game!
If there is a shitstorm, they got the 'how' wrong. If the model isn't predatory and publishers are honest, then people will pay more for aspects of a game that works. I don't begrudge paying a higher price up front if the offering is transparent and awesome, and I trust the publisher. I don't begrudge paying a little more* if the little more makes me feel good about buying it and doesn't stuff the game up for base players. *As long as the 'little more' is also decent value. Extras are price sensitive, I don't want to feel ripped off, if the content is good value, I'll probably end up spending more and be happy about it. The Battlefront II launch has become a model of how not to go about it. I don't think trusting a developer or publisher is a good idea, I would judge each implementation on its own independent of who made the game. Everyone says how much they trust Valve and we have their lootbox problems and how they enabled that behavior until it really broke big, but it took a lot longer then when it was first started to be reported on because people trust Valve. Even Blizzard hasn't gotten the blowback that I think they deserve over what they did with their approach to the laws about lootboxes in China. There was also the whole incident with how WBIE with Shadow of War. Even Activision jumped into the frey of dumb ideas with their patent about how to "encourage" more sales for lootboxes. I know EA has done dumb things and this was a piss poor implementation of lootboxes, but with all these incidents over the last few months I just don't see how anyone can be willing to put blind trust behind any publisher.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 21, 2017 16:46:47 GMT
Well, one part of the article that was quoted that hits close to home for me is the assertion that the gaming hardware aka consoles are getting cheaper.
Yet, I still cannot justify in my mind how the industry is allowed to expect the consumer to own every console and a PC to play all the games. In comparison, the home video market was not allowed to maintain different formats for the product that required different hardware to play them.
Why is it expected from a gamer to own three different consoles and the PC to have access to all the games on the market, when the technology is available to either cross platform or steam games made for one setup to another?
This gets me far, far more than lootboxes, because it effectively makes HZD cost 560$ which is really the most expensive game I have EVER seen.
Are the games only profitable when they have a capital investment into the parent’s company hardwear amortized over the life of the device (what is it now between new consoles, 5 years? 3 years?)
This approach is extremely bias against a low volume gamer that will pay hugely for each hour on each console if you factor in the cost of console.
Where is the internet shaming for the lack of cross p,atforming and against exclusivity? Or is selling consoles so well handled that people want to buy as many as possible and not look at the price tag?
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Post by Sartoz on Nov 21, 2017 17:44:49 GMT
Snip I know EA has done dumb things and this was a piss poor implementation of lootboxes, but with all these incidents over the last few months I just don't see how anyone can be willing to put blind trust behind any publisher. -(_ANTHEM_)-
DICE made a huge mistake with some of their design concepts for SWBF2.
(1) locking iconic Star Wars characters behind a credit paywall and making the consumer pay 70-90 bucks up front for that privilege.
(2) Awarding to few credits based on time spent playing rather than rewarding achievements.
(3) Tying game progression to loot box content. (4) Deliberately making worthwhile content via loot boxes a low probability, necessitating earning lots or buy lots of them. (5) Star Cards that give the player an advantage over other players. (6) Use MTs to buy your way to win. (7) Scrap metal and crafting implementation tied to grindy char levels, tied to the above points.
Imo, DICE knew how long it would take to unlock a hero without MTs. My bet is that the Creative Director banked on players buying their way out of the quagmire via MTs. What I find shocking is that DICE had no plan B and with EA closely monitoring game development, EA gave this concept their blessing.
Fact is, removal of MTs has no effect on improving game progression. Everything is, as is, except no MTs. The reduction by 75% of the cost to unlock a hero is mitigated by the fact your reward credits are also reduced by 75%... you know, must maintain game balance. These loot boxes are so integrated into the game design, I can't see how DICE can "tweak / change" the mechanics any time soon.
Most of all, EA will not give up this lucrative revenue stream. The company is working hard to find a better way to screw with us, imo. Time and again EA's financial statements and investor notes prove that EA stock value will come first. Thus, I see future EA games will be solely "live-service" designs and SP a withered mechanic from its glorious past, if at all.
If anything was learned today, Bio is working hard to avoid a similar disaster come late 2018 for the Anthem launch.
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Post by Cyonan on Nov 21, 2017 17:50:11 GMT
I personally prefer sub model, but most people vehemently hate it, because a lot of people who play those games cannot afford reliably depositing the money for sub every month or feel that it is outrageous demand, no matter what it costs. They are impulse one time purchasers. In fact, the loudest people who speak around the MTX and subs are those who believe the games should be free or B2P and the peeps with unlimited time on their hands and skills should have the advantage over casuals. I have seen people rage over any advantage in progression, however minuscule that a sub or preferred status gives a player in an F2P title. The games that are sub only do not get enough players. As for the quoted number of hours to unlock everything, I have seen worse. And you know what happens? The leet gleeful form their farming cooperatives and get everything in a matter of mere months, then start whining how game is no fun because of dumb casuals who won’t even put 10 hours a day in a premade farming extreme difficulty. Those few who are interested in paying to pawn, pay and pawn. The rest go and play what they can for a bit then leave. There is no optimal solution to it in a game that in essence is just a ladder of grinding gear. Because the problem is the absence of meaningful content that is satisfying to play for a while even if your achievements and possessions are nowhere near 100% and never will be. ME3MP actually succeeded in that, and MEAMP might have had if it were funded. Whatever else, I certainly hope for substance to be a part of Anthem. How they go about monetization is not a concern of mine compared to that. I am also not scared of the MP blending, again, as long as content is talented and has substances that makes me feel like I am adventuring, not farming gear. Swtor managed to provide me with this incredible experience of prolonging the active life of my favorite characters beyond running them through the story. I appreciate it about the MP that has a heart and substance vs soulless grind I have seen. ME MPs also gave me the acces to something bigger than the SP campaign, and more than counting down hours to full unlocks. If it is not like that, then yes, I think you are correct, that’s it for BioWare. There are Spiders. And a couple of indie companies that make isometric unvoiced games of uneven quality due to severe budget constraints. Finally, being greatful when you are given something you asked for is a graceful thing to do, no matter what preceded that giving. Turning back with “we fought for it! We earned it! Let’s beat ‘me up some more!” Is not the attitude I comprehend. It’s too entitled and low class for my tastes. Just like gloating and making a cheap PR stunt out of a competitor’s misfortune. It’s not righteous, not honorable, and I cannot respect that. For many years we asked for more than one straight romance for a female PC. Then I left the gaming scene, came back years later, and wow, every game had at least two to chose from. I was thankful. I will never forget that. If BioWare is finally dissolved I will forever remember with gratitude that one company that for one incredible decade believed that someone like me might exist within their playerbase. And that’s all I have to say. That I am greatful. In the context of a PvP FPS game the optimal solution is easy: Just make a good game. If you want to add MTs, with games like Overwatch you start the game with everything that isn't cosmetic unlocked and all lootboxes just give out cosmetic items. There are still people that are going to complain about it, but the MTs being cosmetic combined with it being a genuinely great FPS make it still a highly successful game. I'd hope for Anthem to have a good core experience without all the added bullshit, but at this point I simply don't trust EA. Battlefront 2 might be the thing that finally caused the big uproar, but this is hardly the first time they've done stuff like this. The problem is that they keep specifically designing games around the idea of trying to get players to pay more money(keep in mind a lot of games, including EA ones, have had loot boxes before without causing this big of a stir. It's specifically how the game was built around them that caused this). I'm not going to be grateful to EA because they never gave us what people were asking for. Pay to win mechanics have not been removed from the game as they have already said that they're going to turn MTs back on later, and at no point have they said that they are going to fix the broken progression system blatantly designed around those pay to win mechanics. I have no real sympathy for EA on this one. If you keep doing shit and keep saying "We'll fix this" but then don't fix it, you don't have any ground to stand on when people stop believing you when you say "No seriously guys, this time we'll fix it for real". When it comes to EA(and a few other publishers if I'm being honest) I'm on a case of "I'll believe it when I actually see it". To be honest I hope that BioWare doesn't go the way of other developers of games that I loved like Westwood, but I do hope that EA gets their shit together and stops putting these sorts of extremely anti-consumer practices in their games and unfortunately the only language a business truly speaks is money. Hurting their sales numbers is how we get them to stop. On a side note I would say that in a PvP game those with more skill should have the advantage, because PvP is inherently a test of skill against other players. We already solved the whole "but new players will just get steamrolled" in the FPS genre back in the 90s by having server browsers with newbie friendly servers, and then again a second time when we created the idea of skill based matchmaking.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 21, 2017 18:06:38 GMT
PvP balance is very hard to find. For me the biggest thing is that it has to be fun to play even when losing.
In Swtor, the games were so interesting in the unranked, that I had a blast, no matter what, from the day I came till the day I left, and I started at ground zero level when I had to ask people how a character can run and shoot at the same time.
I played in a system with equalized gear and matchmaking for 1vs 1. Thing is, despite equalization, the levels of characters and the access to the secret uber-skills that were tied into PvE dungeons or being a high ranking PvP player still left the noob at a disadvantage and that’s before you went to class balance.
And, on top of it, there is always a vocal faction that wants their hard-won gear to make the difference, to make the PvP the whole reason d’etre for farming, because if you are not one-shooting others, what’s the point.
Player stratification and the deep resentment various groups of players feel towards one another are not simple issues to overcome. We all paid for the game, independently of skill, so we all need rewarding experiences. There is a sort of threshold in all those MP games, pvp and PvE, after which if you just keep losing, you stop playing.
I was attracted this year to the Lawbreaker trailer, but ended up too scared to try it, after I saw it was FPS. There was no way I was learning a new game in PvP only mode.
It’s gotta be interesting somehow. So interesting that it losing and gear grind stop being a focus of the players’ concerns. I did find it in swtor and ME’s, but I sure hope BioWare can pull it off again.
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Post by Cyonan on Nov 21, 2017 18:08:02 GMT
Fact is, removal of MTs has no effect on improving game progression. Everything is, as is, except no MTs. The reduction by 75% of the cost to unlock a hero is mitigated by the fact your reward credits are also reduced by 75%... you know, must maintain game balance. These loot boxes are so integrated into the game design, I can't see how DICE can "tweak / change" the mechanics any time soon. Most of all, EA will not give up this lucrative revenue stream. The company is working hard to find a better way to screw with us, imo. Time and again EA's financial statements and investor notes prove that EA stock value will come first. Thus, I see future EA games will be solely "live-service" designs and SP a withered mechanic from its glorious past, if at all. To be honest my biggest worry is them just doing nothing and re-enabling it at a later date after they did a few "changes" so they can claim they did something and they think everybody has forgotten about the controversy. This is essentially what Bethesda did with paid mods and it worked: Nobody complained when they added paid mods back into Skyrim and Fallout 4 under the new re-packaged marketing to make them look like "not paid mods" when the reality is that they're just paid mods again. If this tactic works again in Battlefront 2, I can see them thinking they can get away with it in Anthem as well.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 21, 2017 18:12:16 GMT
Fact is, removal of MTs has no effect on improving game progression. Everything is, as is, except no MTs. The reduction by 75% of the cost to unlock a hero is mitigated by the fact your reward credits are also reduced by 75%... you know, must maintain game balance. These loot boxes are so integrated into the game design, I can't see how DICE can "tweak / change" the mechanics any time soon. Most of all, EA will not give up this lucrative revenue stream. The company is working hard to find a better way to screw with us, imo. Time and again EA's financial statements and investor notes prove that EA stock value will come first. Thus, I see future EA games will be solely "live-service" designs and SP a withered mechanic from its glorious past, if at all. To be honest my biggest worry is them just doing nothing and re-enabling it at a later date after they did a few "changes" so they can claim they did something and they think everybody has forgotten about the controversy. This is essentially what Bethesda did with paid mods and it worked: Nobody complained when they added paid mods back into Skyrim and Fallout 4 under the new re-packaged marketing to make them look like "not paid mods" when the reality is that they're just paid mods again. If this tactic works again in Battlefront 2, I can see them thinking they can get away with it in Anthem as well. What it changes is the perception of what is “fair”. But seeing that most people with access to top gear are not those willing to shell out a couple thousand bucks for gear, but those willing to farm for 10 hrs a day with their decades of experience farming behind them, yep, the removal changes nothing. And the whole outrage vs boxes themselves is misdirected.
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Nov 21, 2017 18:23:16 GMT
but with all these incidents over the last few months I just don't see how anyone can be willing to put blind trust behind any publisher. Except for CDPR. Sorry, couldn't resist. Just kidding, of course.On a serious note, words are important, but actions are proof. I want to hear affirmative statements from developers, like these press releases from Grinding Gears about Path of Exile free-to-play. Excerpts: (About the PvP Beta) “Your character’s build really matters in Path of Exile. The game’s deep itemization, innovative flask system and emphasis on skill combos will encourage players to plan character builds carefully so they can compete with the realm’s best players,” says producer Chris Wilson. “We won’t be selling any form of power in the game, only aesthetic improvements, so if you’re fighting someone you know they earned their place the hard way.”(Crowdfunding annoucement) Grinding Gear Games have committed to never charge for content or power. “Selling supporter packs and currency has also been a great test of our ‘ethical microtransaction’ philosophy. We hate the concept of pay-to-win games, so it’s great to see that players are willing to support the game and to buy purely cosmetic items,” says Wilson.But then those words need to be followed up by action. Starting out with no P2W is good, not slipping it in slowly over time, when people aren't paying as much attention is better. Figuring new ways to monetize purely cosmetic or non-competitive QoL improvements (like more inventory slots), and being totally transparent about what you are doing and taking community feedback before implementing any progression or monetization change is best.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 21, 2017 18:27:38 GMT
It's all nice and good, but if the game is all about grinding gear and progression, I am not going be playing it. I am not interested in delayed gratification of pursuing a moving target of the Bestest Gear set over the course of many months. I am not interested in an uber-efficient daily farm load to get there before as many others as possible.
All I want is fun content.
In a perfect game for me, gear and time spent per day playing, win or loss, won't matter because trying is so much fun and so incredibly interesting. Then, I will be happy to buy (or, let's be fair, more likely win/earn) cosmetics to put on my most favorite toon.
I think this is sort of what AC:O does, not sure, though.
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