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Post by Cyonan on Nov 21, 2017 18:43:49 GMT
PvP balance is very hard to find. For me the biggest thing is that it has to be fun to play even when losing. In Swtor, the games were so interesting in the unranked, that I had a blast, no matter what, from the day I came till the day I left, and I started at ground zero level when I had to ask people how a character can run and shoot at the same time. I played in a system with equalized gear and matchmaking for 1vs 1. Thing is, despite equalization, the levels of characters and the access to the secret uber-skills that were tied into PvE dungeons or being a high ranking PvP player still left the noob at a disadvantage and that’s before you went to class balance. And, on top of it, there is always a vocal faction that wants their hard-won gear to make the difference, to make the PvP the whole reason d’etre for farming, because if you are not one-shooting others, what’s the point. Player stratification and the deep resentment various groups of players feel towards one another are not simple issues to overcome. We all paid for the game, independently of skill, so we all need rewarding experiences. There is a sort of threshold in all those MP games, pvp and PvE, after which if you just keep losing, you stop playing. It’s gotta be interesting somehow. So interesting that it losing and gear grind stop being a focus of the players’ concerns. I did find it in swtor and ME’s, but I sure hope BioWare can pull it off again. I think you'd be hard pressed to find somebody who doesn't agree that a game needs to be fun, just disagreements on what makes it fun. For me I might have liked SWtoR more if I started at a later date. I played at launch and had the unfortunate luck of playing a Mercenary which meant that PvP for me was just "Spam Tracer Missile until it stops being alive". The fact that I was one of the most powerful classes and could best a lot of other players didn't really matter because spamming 1 button was boring to me. That said I did play a lot of World of Warcraft over the years and I was one of the best tanks on my server at one point. Not just because of my raid gear but because I was a skilled player. My experience is that most people were happy to get me as their tank in a dungeon. They might have been at a disadvantage compared to me yes, but I made sure the run went a lot more smoothly. Prior to a bunch of cross-realm stuff being added, many people even wanted to add me to their friends list because of how good I did. When talking about co-op PvE I find that a skill disparity generally results in the lower skilled player being happy to have somebody skilled on their side(short of the skilled player being an elitist asshat, but that's down to another issue entirely and I don't support those attitudes). In a PvP experience our best tools for handling skill disparity is server browsers and skill based matchmaking. You don't have to worry about me running around headshotting all the low skill players in Counter-Strike if the game never matches me up against them. The game should be a test of skill against other players, but the game should also be smart about matching you up with similarly skilled players(or server browsers which lets you pick your own match to play in. Those worked great in the 90s and early 2000s). It's not really fun to me when I outplay an opponent at every turn but they win anyway because they paid an extra $100 to get the unlocks I need to play another 200 hours to have. Not to mention that once you have a skilled player drop money into the MTs they're virtually unstoppable, because now not even the other good players can fight them since we've not yet grinded out all the gear needed to compete.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 21, 2017 18:51:48 GMT
And, to be fair, should not the matchmaking system match them up against one another?
But, I stopped believing in matchmaking that day I tried ranked PvP in Swtor. There I was, my first ranked match ever, with seven other players each of them in the top 50 for the server in the past 2 season. My starting 1200 was close enough to their 1600s which was not easy to maintain in Swtor ranking system that is strongly biased downwards. There was no learning curve, no earning your stripes. Just the “get the f**k out, you f***g moron, you”
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Post by Cyonan on Nov 21, 2017 19:19:19 GMT
And, to be fair, should not the matchmaking system match them up against one another? But, I stopped believing in matchmaking that day I tried ranked PvP in Swtor. There I was, my first ranked match ever, with seven other players each of them in the top 50 for the server in the past 2 season. My starting 1200 was close enough to their 1600s which was not easy to maintain in Swtor ranking system that is strongly biased downwards. There was no learning curve, no earning your stripes. Just the “get the f**k out, you f***g moron, you” For the best experience matchmaking should, but now there's more incentive to let the people buying things to be put into unfair matches so they can steamroll the enemy and feel good about their purchases. That might sound like I need a tinfoil hat, but that's literally what Activision has mentioned in a recent patent on a matchmaking system based around MTs so obviously publishers have been thinking about it at the very least. There are however also a lot of just plain badly designed matchmaking systems which is why I prefer having a server browser in most games(it wouldn't work that well in a MMO admittedly), but again there is now monetary incentive to not include them because people will just make "No MT players allowed" servers which will hurt the revenue stream. Plus when people can host their own servers it opens things up to modding the game a lot more, which can be used to bypass the progression system. When you get down to it that's the core of the problem I have with the MTs in a game like Battlefront 2: Money is now dictating everything about how the game is designed, rather than good design principles. Even with the MTs pulled out temporarily the problem persists because the game was specifically designed around those MTs. It's also why I'm not really bothered with it in Overwatch(although ideally it could have been done better than RNG lootboxes, but whatever). That game makes it purely cosmetic, and the core gameplay experience was built around being a good game and not just one big revenue stream. and nobody can really argue that Overwatch isn't making tons of money anyway.
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Post by Amirit on Nov 21, 2017 19:31:54 GMT
Key point right there. They forgot how to sell properly. Quite right. I worked in 'sales' in the 80's... My manager taught me: - People hate being 'sold to'
- People quite like buying stuff they want to buy.
so...
- Don't try to 'sell' people things you want to sell.
- Help people to buy what they want to have.
That's not happening here. The bad thing is, they might do just that - sell something people want, aka lootboxes. I mean, they turned it off without changing the system. Heavy grind is still there. Those tired of it might request the possibility to buy lootboxes for the real money. EA will be more than happy to oblige.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 21, 2017 19:56:18 GMT
And, to be fair, should not the matchmaking system match them up against one another? But, I stopped believing in matchmaking that day I tried ranked PvP in Swtor. There I was, my first ranked match ever, with seven other players each of them in the top 50 for the server in the past 2 season. My starting 1200 was close enough to their 1600s which was not easy to maintain in Swtor ranking system that is strongly biased downwards. There was no learning curve, no earning your stripes. Just the “get the f**k out, you f***g moron, you” For the best experience matchmaking should, but now there's more incentive to let the people buying things to be put into unfair matches so they can steamroll the enemy and feel good about their purchases. That might sound like I need a tinfoil hat, but that's literally what Activision has mentioned in a recent patent on a matchmaking system based around MTs so obviously publishers have been thinking about it at the very least. There are however also a lot of just plain badly designed matchmaking systems which is why I prefer having a server browser in most games(it wouldn't work that well in a MMO admittedly), but again there is now monetary incentive to not include them because people will just make "No MT players allowed" servers which will hurt the revenue stream. Plus when people can host their own servers it opens things up to modding the game a lot more, which can be used to bypass the progression system. Well, a matchmaking system that gives the advantage to the high rollers is probably an automatic “that’s a no” response for me, unless it’s a separate module that does not impact a fantastic SP game. I do not like the blatant pay to win like that, but pay to progress, which seems to be the BF2 choice just doesn’t bother me much IF it comes with fair matchmaking. One on one matchmaking I saw was fine. It gave me what it promised - the chance to win once in a while, and fair, interesting duels when I lost. And no screaming teammates. On the other hand, completely unranked PvP with interesting objectives games in Swtor still were the best, because they were just that much fun, win or lose, and still rewarding vs no reward for a loss in a dueling PvP I played in another game, where getting those 3 or 5 wins for the daily sometimes was tricky.
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Post by Cyonan on Nov 21, 2017 20:35:02 GMT
For the best experience matchmaking should, but now there's more incentive to let the people buying things to be put into unfair matches so they can steamroll the enemy and feel good about their purchases. That might sound like I need a tinfoil hat, but that's literally what Activision has mentioned in a recent patent on a matchmaking system based around MTs so obviously publishers have been thinking about it at the very least. There are however also a lot of just plain badly designed matchmaking systems which is why I prefer having a server browser in most games(it wouldn't work that well in a MMO admittedly), but again there is now monetary incentive to not include them because people will just make "No MT players allowed" servers which will hurt the revenue stream. Plus when people can host their own servers it opens things up to modding the game a lot more, which can be used to bypass the progression system. Well, a matchmaking system that gives the advantage to the high rollers is probably an automatic “that’s a no” response for me, unless it’s a separate module that does not impact a fantastic SP game. I do not like the blatant pay to win like that, but pay to progress, which seems to be the BF2 choice just doesn’t bother me much IF it comes with fair matchmaking. One on one matchmaking I saw was fine. It gave me what it promised - the chance to win once in a while, and fair, interesting duels when I lost. And no screaming teammates. On the other hand, completely unranked PvP with interesting objectives games in Swtor still were the best, because they were just that much fun, win or lose, and still rewarding vs no reward for a loss in a dueling PvP I played in another game, where getting those 3 or 5 wins for the daily sometimes was tricky. I would consider it pay to win because people can just instantly buy things which grant you player power that take a very long time to unlock, even if you can play absurd amounts of hours per day. Based on the 4500 hours calculated out, even if you found a way to play 24/7(and I do mean 24 hours a day with no sleeping or stopping to do anything at all) it would still take ~6 months to get everything. No matchmaking system is going to match them up against only other people who have dropped that much money into it or spent that much time farming. Not once have I ever seen a game that actually did that.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 21, 2017 20:43:37 GMT
Well, a matchmaking system that gives the advantage to the high rollers is probably an automatic “that’s a no” response for me, unless it’s a separate module that does not impact a fantastic SP game. I do not like the blatant pay to win like that, but pay to progress, which seems to be the BF2 choice just doesn’t bother me much IF it comes with fair matchmaking. One on one matchmaking I saw was fine. It gave me what it promised - the chance to win once in a while, and fair, interesting duels when I lost. And no screaming teammates. On the other hand, completely unranked PvP with interesting objectives games in Swtor still were the best, because they were just that much fun, win or lose, and still rewarding vs no reward for a loss in a dueling PvP I played in another game, where getting those 3 or 5 wins for the daily sometimes was tricky. I would consider it pay to win because people can just instantly buy things which grant you player power that take a very long time to unlock, even if you can play absurd amounts of hours per day. Based on the 4500 hours calculated out, even if you found a way to play 24/7(and I do mean 24 hours a day with no sleeping or stopping to do anything at all) it would still take ~6 months to get everything. No matchmaking system is going to match them up against only other people who have dropped that much money into it or spent that much time farming. Not once have I ever seen a game that actually did that. Technically it is pay to progress, if the same gear CAN be earned through playing, no matter how many hours it takes. Hmm, I think there was gear rating brackets matching in 6 vs 6 in BnS, But don’t quote me on this. I never bothered with those, was gear flashing venue. I dunno, I think BnS really made me get over the idea of egalitarianism in games, it’s all stratified, and I am the lowest of the low, so no expectations ever again. Overall, I dunno if I would even want to play PvP again or any MP. I have been comforable solo lately. Then, again, if it is something I have not done before, I might get intrigued. Have to see what Anthem actually does offer. Which is a HUGE unknown for now.
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Post by Cyonan on Nov 21, 2017 21:21:30 GMT
I would consider it pay to win because people can just instantly buy things which grant you player power that take a very long time to unlock, even if you can play absurd amounts of hours per day. Based on the 4500 hours calculated out, even if you found a way to play 24/7(and I do mean 24 hours a day with no sleeping or stopping to do anything at all) it would still take ~6 months to get everything. No matchmaking system is going to match them up against only other people who have dropped that much money into it or spent that much time farming. Not once have I ever seen a game that actually did that. Technically it is pay to progress, if the same gear CAN be earned through playing, no matter how many hours it takes. Hmm, I think there was gear rating brackets matching in 6 vs 6 in BnS, But don’t quote me on this. I never bothered with those, was gear flashing venue. I dunno, I think BnS really made me get over the idea of egalitarianism in games, it’s all stratified, and I am the lowest of the low, so no expectations ever again. Overall, I dunno if I would even want to play PvP again or any MP. I have been comforable solo lately. Then, again, if it is something I have not done before, I might get intrigued. Have to see what Anthem actually does offer. Which is a HUGE unknown for now. I'd make the argument that something can be both pay to win and pay to progress at the same time, then. When it comes to Anthem assuming we can get past the whole MT/Lootbox thing my biggest concern is them doing what Destiny 2 does and having the entire end game essentially be running the same couple of events over and over again in the hopes of getting a very slight upgrade where none of the stats are very interesting. Their idea of padding out the game time with grinds but also stopping people from simply just grinding 10+ hours a day was to limit how much top tier gear you can get in a single week by making upgrades only come from very specific activities once you hit a certain point(which I hit within the first few days of playing). I'd rather have something closer to the earlier days of WoW where progress slowed down because it was just difficult, and over time the earlier content became more accessible as new content became available(not just by gear but because they made changes that directly or indirectly nerfed the challenge of the old content).
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Post by mmoblitz on Nov 21, 2017 23:33:40 GMT
And in the latest update, it looks like Belgium thinks they are indeed gambling.. Click
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Post by SofaJockey on Nov 21, 2017 23:34:17 GMT
Yep, this is going to be fascinating...
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Nov 21, 2017 23:42:42 GMT
And in the latest update, it looks like Belgium thinks they are indeed gambling.. ClickBelgium is being stupid.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 21, 2017 23:52:42 GMT
Well, that sets a legal precedent. Let’s see what transpires!
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Post by Cyonan on Nov 22, 2017 1:04:17 GMT
Well it'll be interesting to see how many other countries follow what Belgium has done.
Though if it's just Belgium then I don't see it really having an effect.
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Post by SofaJockey on Nov 22, 2017 1:29:32 GMT
Having just read the article in its original Flemish, the focus from the justice minister is on the gamble of not knowing what's in the lootbox. Clearly for the minister receiving an undefined something is not good enough. It's still gambling. Paying for stuff seems fine if people know what the stuff is.
Interesting how this would affect mobile games and indeed physical card packs.
And getting 26 other EU countries to agree would be no small feat.
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Post by Sartoz on Nov 22, 2017 2:27:19 GMT
And in the latest update, it looks like Belgium thinks they are indeed gambling.. Click-(_ANTHEM_)-
Interesting indeed.
More important is the effect of a unified EU ruling for current and future games.
(🌸=◡=)
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Post by majesticjazz on Nov 22, 2017 2:29:11 GMT
This is my personal view (deep breath) Games are a business, investors have a stake in that, games need to be paid for. Games are cheaper now, than historically. uk.ign.com/articles/2013/10/15/the-real-cost-of-gaming-inflation-time-and-purchasing-powerBut the key is not: - Do we charge more than the assumed $60? but
- How do we do that without breaking the bloody game!
If there is a shitstorm, they got the 'how' wrong. If the model isn't predatory and publishers are honest, then people will pay more for aspects of a game that works. I don't begrudge paying a higher price up front if the offering is transparent and awesome, and I trust the publisher. I don't begrudge paying a little more* if the little more makes me feel good about buying it and doesn't stuff the game up for base players. *As long as the 'little more' is also decent value. Extras are price sensitive, I don't want to feel ripped off, if the content is good value, I'll probably end up spending more and be happy about it. The Battlefront II launch has become a model of how not to go about it. Overwatch proved the better way to do MTs as they are all cosmetic based. With SWBF2, the problem is that it is tied to player progression which raises P2W concerns. Then there is Rockstar with GTA Online that sells all in-game items like cars but at a really expensive ingame price. In addition, they put the ingame mission payouts at such a low price, you could play for hours and still not make a lot So for players to actually acquire them, they have to buy Shark Cards. So in a way, in order to fully enjoy all the "free" content in GTAO, you to spend real money. Unless you have no life and can grind forever. Too bad EA is being hit now but Rockstar Games is just as bad. You are telling me that as much as GTA5 sold, they cannot make profit on a $60 game without MTs?
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Post by Gandalf the Fabulous on Nov 22, 2017 3:44:53 GMT
I much prefer the sub model myself and I know I'm probably in the minority now days. I would much rather pay one fee and have access to everything and know I don't have to pay more than that one set fee and everyone is on an even playing field as far as that goes. Time is the only thing that may not be equal. Funny how far we have come where the horridness of loot boxes and microtransactions actually has people wanting a return to the subscription model for online games, honestly I gotta say be careful what you wish for as I think EA might already be one step ahead of you with EA Access. Might seem like good value now but I can easily see this turning into something just as horrible and shitty, just wait until they jack up the price and start locking their latest releases behind EA Access gold or something, do we really want to see the video game marketplace turn into a netflix like subscription service?
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Post by Sanunes on Nov 22, 2017 4:23:23 GMT
Having just read the article in its original Flemish, the focus from the justice minister is on the gamble of not knowing what's in the lootbox. Clearly for the minister receiving an undefined something is not good enough. It's still gambling. Paying for stuff seems fine if people know what the stuff is. Interesting how this would affect mobile games and indeed physical card packs. And getting 26 other EU countries to agree would be no small feat. So the question then becomes what do they want to know, for that sounds a lot like what China tried to force when mandating the odds of getting the items. If they just want a list of what is actually in the lootbox, I could see an "Info" type button that just lists what they want and its over with and the lootboxes continue. Then if it is just Belgium and the publishers think they don't like it they just geolock out Belgium gamers and continue along the way they were.
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Post by Cyonan on Nov 22, 2017 4:33:37 GMT
I much prefer the sub model myself and I know I'm probably in the minority now days. I would much rather pay one fee and have access to everything and know I don't have to pay more than that one set fee and everyone is on an even playing field as far as that goes. Time is the only thing that may not be equal. Funny how far we have come where the horridness of loot boxes and microtransactions actually has people wanting a return to the subscription model for online games, honestly I gotta say be careful what you wish for as I think EA might already be one step ahead of you with EA Access. Might seem like good value now but I can easily see this turning into something just as horrible and shitty, just wait until they jack up the price and start locking their latest releases behind EA Access gold or something, do we really want to see the video game marketplace turn into a netflix like subscription service? To be fair I wouldn't be against a Netflix like service provided it offered as much value for the cost that Netflix currently has. Though I highly doubt the entire marketplace would turn into that being the only option to get games. Not even TV shows and Movies have done that with Netflix being around.
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Post by river82 on Nov 22, 2017 5:02:06 GMT
Wacky Europe is being wacky again.
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Post by Sartoz on Nov 22, 2017 5:27:47 GMT
-(_ANTHEM_)-
Seems like Hawaii is on the bandwagon. Wow, here I thought the US would dismiss this storm in a tea pot.
State representative Chris Lee held a conference and he is seeking to ban predatory practices aimed at children, in video games. Star Wars franchise is aimed at kids. Also, if I understood it right, Lee has been talking to representatives in other states in the mainland.
Looks like the combination of EA greed, pushing the gambling envelope, Lucas Film, Disney, CNN, WSJ, Washingtonpost and Disney's marquee IP was the perfect catalyst to grab the attention of "major gov players".
Chris Lee is in the video below starting at 2:46
link: (🌸=◡=)
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Just a flip of the coin.
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Post by Sanunes on Nov 22, 2017 6:00:43 GMT
-(_ANTHEM_)-
Seems like Hawaii is on the bandwagon. Wow, here I thought the US would dismiss this storm in a tea pot.
State representative Chris Lee held a conference and he is seeking to ban predatory practices aimed at children, in video games. Star Wars franchise is aimed at kids. Also, if I understood it right, Lee has been talking to representatives in other states in the mainland.
Looks like the combination of EA greed, pushing the gambling envelope, Lucas Film, Disney, CNN, WSJ, Washingtonpost and Disney's marquee IP was the perfect catalyst to grab the attention of "major gov players".
Chris Lee is in the video below starting at 2:46
link: (🌸=◡=) I wouldn't break out the dancing shoes until it actually becomes a law instead of just being investigated which is all I am getting from the comments from the Hawaiian government which means it might not pass.
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mmoblitz
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Post by mmoblitz on Nov 22, 2017 9:48:41 GMT
After all is said and done with this do I think LB will be a thing of the past? No, but I do think this is going to force the gaming industry to take a long hard look at some of their practices. Tying progression behind LB/MTX is not new, but now it has national/international attention. It's not going to be so easy for companies to do w/o much more blow-back or bad PR and they are going to have to come up with other ways to milk it's gamers.
Just make good games, not shallow, one dimensional games and people will buy them. No need to hide poor gaming mechanics behind gimmicks to get you open up your wallet. Charge a sub for "live service" games or go back to DLC, but stop the BS of milking the gamers dry.
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Heimdall
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Post by Heimdall on Nov 22, 2017 9:54:53 GMT
Well, it should be interesting to see how this plays out. I bet other publishers are cursing EA now for potentially killing their golden goose.
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coldsteelblue
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Post by coldsteelblue on Nov 22, 2017 10:51:14 GMT
Ok, so with regards to what Belgium are saying; in all honesty I think that if they take this notion to the EU that LB's are gambling they will lose, because, & to be blunt, they aren't.
LB's are no different than a kid going in to the store where I work & buying a few packets of Match Attax, this kid is guaranteed their stickers, they may not contain a sticker of their favourite player, nor may they contain the few stickers the kid needs to complete their collection, but nonetheless, the few packets that the kid buys does 100% contain stickers. This is the same with LB's, you will always get something for your money, even if it is not what you want. For example (& using the sticker analogy) how many here had a sticker collection growing up? Now, how many of you filled that album with only buying the sticker packs? How many of you traded with your schoolmates & how many of you saved up your pocket money & sent a postal order off to Paninni or Merlin? Sending off the cash to the sticker manufacturer, a few, maybe 20p for every sticker, is, in & of itself a microtransaction , yet has anybody ever kicked up a stink & tried to sue Merlin & Pannini over this? Particularly because these sticker albums only retail for a limited amount of time
The main differencea with LB's & a pack of stickers though are: 1: Stickers are much, much cheaper, even when sending off for the last few in an MTX fashion. 2: They can be traded with your friends for ones you don't have 3: They can easily be bought by their target audience 4: LB's are more expensive & can only really be bought by someone with a credit/debit card, or someone with access to one. 5: The Digital content cannot be traded with friends for that which you want & that which they have double of. 6: LB's are not a limited time purchase like sticker albums, but the duration of the main playerbase is the time factor there. 7: You cannot buy specific content from the games (most of the time) only from their digital trading card boxes.
So to close, LB's & their like are not gambling as you always get something for your money, but they are a predatory thing when they lock content behind a paywall (SWBF2), especially in a £50 game & in honesty, all EA need to do to stop this backlash is to increase the amount of credits earned in SWBF2 for the wins/loses/draws to keep the players playing.
MTX's are here for the long haul, I'm sure of it, it all depends how they are used.
Think that's all I have to say on this for now, but, all the above is just my own opinion.
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