Heimdall
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Post by Heimdall on Dec 7, 2017 12:44:29 GMT
I think there is disagreement what gambling is. "Nay" sayers claim that MTs always return a value for your money. In that sense of gambling there needs to be a case where you lose the bet and the cash is gone. "Ye" sayers - well what do they actually claim? It didn't really stick with me and before ESRB sticks adults only stickers on I bet it needs to stick in a legally sound way. The issue is complex, because I agree that loot boxes and similar systems don’t meet the legal definition of gambling in that regard. On the other hand, if a slot machine was designed to always pay out at least 5 cents instead of none, I don’t think anyone would seriously argue that this meant it wasn’t gambling. Though part of the problem is just that it isn’t easy to attach real value to virtual items, thus it’s hard to say whether the customer “lost”. Still, gambling is regulated because of the harmful effects it can have through addictive psychology. Loot boxes pray on the same addictive chance/reward psychology. I’m not sure I really want regulation, but maybe the legal definition needs updating.
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Sanunes
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Just a flip of the coin.
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Post by Sanunes on Dec 7, 2017 12:48:53 GMT
I don't see any sign of more Dragon Age until late 2019 at the earliest. And there's some ambiguity over whether it will be like DAI in structure or something else... "Something else" - is that in a booming voice or in some sort of menacing whisper? For me it is just looking at each of the Dragon Age games and seeing each one has a different experience and approach. Even three of the Mass Effect games have taken a different approach to most of the game. To me that could be why people are concerned with Anthem is because BioWare really only tries to keep the story element of their games, everything else could be vastly different then their last game. The only two games where the games felt close in design would be Mass Effect 2 and 3 and even then they tweaked most of the systems in the game.
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Just a flip of the coin.
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Post by Sanunes on Dec 7, 2017 12:54:49 GMT
I think there is disagreement what gambling is. "Nay" sayers claim that MTs always return a value for your money. In that sense of gambling there needs to be a case where you lose the bet and the cash is gone. "Ye" sayers - well what do they actually claim? It didn't really stick with me and before ESRB sticks adults only stickers on I bet it needs to stick in a legally sound way. The issue is complex, because I agree that loot boxes and similar systems don’t meet the legal definition of gambling in that regard. On the other hand, if a slot machine was designed to always pay out at least 5 cents instead of none, I don’t think anyone would seriously argue that this meant it wasn’t gambling. Though part of the problem is just that it isn’t easy to attach real value to virtual items, thus it’s hard to say whether the customer “lost”. Still, gambling is regulated because of the harmful effects it can have through addictive psychology. Loot boxes pray on the same addictive chance/reward psychology. I’m not sure I really want regulation, but maybe the legal definition needs updating. Not only that they are probably going to have to look closely to make sure that anything they do stands up to scrutiny. I doubt they would want to leave areas of any classification that could be used as loopholes and not at the same time being so broad that it could impact other industries such as collectible card games.
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Post by mmoblitz on Dec 7, 2017 13:23:15 GMT
"Something else" - is that in a booming voice or in some sort of menacing whisper? For me it is just looking at each of the Dragon Age games and seeing each one has a different experience and approach. Even three of the Mass Effect games have taken a different approach to most of the game. To me that could be why people are concerned with Anthem is because BioWare really only tries to keep the story element of their games, everything else could be vastly different then their last game. The only two games where the games felt close in design would be Mass Effect 2 and 3 and even then they tweaked most of the systems in the game. To me, the core of the OT was story, characters, and dialog. That pretty much stayed the same focus of the OT where most of everything else was refined or just changed in each addition. The core of the first two DA games was Story, character, and Dialog as well. They refined the combat from DAO to DA2 and the tactics. I felt that DAI had an identity crisis. It felt as though it was trying to be a SP MMO with RPG elements and for me, it failed at being good at either one. I think the next DA game will be changed yet again, though I'm 100% certain that it will have a open world focus with some type of RNG progression. I'm willing to bet that Anthem had the same type of progression that SWBF2 has. What we see when DA4 launches, (if we get one), will be based on what Anthem launches with. You can almost bank on that.
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Post by SofaJockey on Dec 7, 2017 13:24:15 GMT
"Something else" - is that in a booming voice or in some sort of menacing whisper? Definitely menacing... Just a reference to some tweets a while back downplaying that DA4 was in any way confirmed as happening. Some people took it that there would be 'something else' in the Dragon Age setting that would not be DA4. Others just took it as obfuscation.
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Post by Pounce de León on Dec 7, 2017 13:25:20 GMT
I think there is disagreement what gambling is. "Nay" sayers claim that MTs always return a value for your money. In that sense of gambling there needs to be a case where you lose the bet and the cash is gone. "Ye" sayers - well what do they actually claim? It didn't really stick with me and before ESRB sticks adults only stickers on I bet it needs to stick in a legally sound way. The issue is complex, because I agree that loot boxes and similar systems don’t meet the legal definition of gambling in that regard. On the other hand, if a slot machine was designed to always pay out at least 5 cents instead of none, I don’t think anyone would seriously argue that this meant it wasn’t gambling. Though part of the problem is just that it isn’t easy to attach real value to virtual items, thus it’s hard to say whether the customer “lost”. Still, gambling is regulated because of the harmful effects it can have through addictive psychology. Loot boxes pray on the same addictive chance/reward psychology. I’m not sure I really want regulation, but maybe the legal definition needs updating. I don't argue that it's not gambling, but it`d need a sound legal definition lest it's not being disputed. And the ESRB is industry self-regulation iirc, so they probably not keen to cut into their own flesh too much. It might not be easy to attach real value to virtual items, yet services (which are immaterial, too) have been valued for ages. Maybe we need to get rid of the thought that it is items we buy.
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Post by Qui-Gon GlenN7 on Dec 7, 2017 13:35:36 GMT
to say that BioWare isn't at a crossroads with this game is foolhardy. I think it's fair to say that BioWare will be under more scrutiny with this release because both EA and BioWare have some trust to regain. Similar perhaps to the run up to Dragon Age Inquisition's release, when both ME3 and DAII were raw memories. Similar? MEA created a gaping wound, out of what was a scab and scar tissue. BF2 microtransaction shenaniganry doesn't help. I think that things can be cumulative. This to me is one of those cases.
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Post by SofaJockey on Dec 7, 2017 13:46:00 GMT
Similar? MEA created a gaping wound, out of what was a scab and scar tissue. BF2 microtransaction shenaniganry doesn't help. I think that things can be cumulative. This to me is one of those cases. Perhaps, though DAI restored some of that trust as consensus GOTY for 2014 and Trespasser was a super DLC conclusion (on 'next gen' at least). Before that, The Extended Cut and Citadel recovered some of BioWare's reputation after ME3. We know BioWare is capable of great work. The Edmonton team has the experience and capability of pulling a rabbit out of the hat, we'll just need to see if they do. For sure, another flop would be seriously problematic, but to my mind, that is not yet inevitable, despite 'concerns'.
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Post by mmoblitz on Dec 7, 2017 14:01:00 GMT
Looks like we have the Sports gamers to thank for the type of monetization we are seeing in SWBF2 and some of EA's other non-sport games. ClickWhat works for their sports games doesn't mean it translates to shooters or other games that aren't sports. They also need to stop expecting mobile gaming money from their console/pc games. They try to monetize their console/pc games like they are f2p mobile games, but make you pay $60 for the mobile monetization experience. If they want to do that then stop charging $60 up front or just stop making console/pc games and go all mobile. That actually wouldn't bother me in the least. I currently don't play anything from EA anyway.
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Post by shinobiwan on Dec 7, 2017 14:51:51 GMT
The mtx in MEA were off-putting enough to me to make me wary of Anthem. Since then, EA has dialed the mtx aggression up to 11. Unless they drastically reverse, I'm not interested in buying another milk machine.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 7, 2017 15:14:30 GMT
"Something else" - is that in a booming voice or in some sort of menacing whisper? For me it is just looking at each of the Dragon Age games and seeing each one has a different experience and approach. Even three of the Mass Effect games have taken a different approach to most of the game. To me that could be why people are concerned with Anthem is because BioWare really only tries to keep the story element of their games, everything else could be vastly different then their last game. The only two games where the games felt close in design would be Mass Effect 2 and 3 and even then they tweaked most of the systems in the game. Agree, and that's what gives me some hope for DA4 to be playable. Funny how all the "disaster" games by BiOWARE are an instant hit with me.
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Just a flip of the coin.
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Post by Sanunes on Dec 7, 2017 16:04:45 GMT
The mtx in MEA were off-putting enough to me to make me wary of Anthem. Since then, EA has dialed the mtx aggression up to 11. Unless they drastically reverse, I'm not interested in buying another milk machine. I found the MTX in Dragon Age: Inquisition were far worse for unlike in the two Mass Effect games since items were all RNG based and there was no way to stop getting the same item even if you got it a hundred times before. The problem I had with Andromeda and MTX was only at the end when they did that big item dump, but to me that was a problem beyond MTX because it impacted non-mtx people as well unlike before that dump.
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Post by Sartoz on Dec 7, 2017 18:03:50 GMT
-(_ANTHEM_)-
EA CFO Blake Jorgensen discusses new trends in gaming
From the 37th Nasdaq Investors Conference, Jorgensen believes: "...the goal is always to give players what they want. What players appear to want now then is to play fewer games but to invest more time in the games. This is certainly an interesting trend in gaming and EA will be focusing on keeping a game alive for longer so as to keep up with this trend....".
First, I'm not taking his words at face value. = players want less games but want to spend more time in the games. Actually, I find EA is pushing this nonsense to justify their doctrine of MTs with every online game.
Second, milking the player via in-game purchases with a longer life span = super profits for the company. Players buy the game for 70-90 bucks which pays for the front load cost of development. Then EA sits backs and counts the money while weak minded players by "boosters" to bypass grind+frustration. Actually, the core game is designed in such a way that unless you pay, game progression may slow down to a crawl.
Anthem's core design will be tied to LBs with random algorithm(s) giving you crap content for 85-90% of the time, imo. The fact it's supposed to last 10 years is all the info I need (based on SWBF2 craptastic game launch) to believe it. Why have Anthem 2 when EA can make money for a decade off Anthem 1? 🌸
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Post by Deleted on Dec 7, 2017 19:09:09 GMT
What players appear to want now then is to play fewer games but to invest more time in the games. This is certainly an interesting trend in gaming and EA will be focusing on keeping a game alive for longer so as to keep up with this trend.... Erm, not this player.
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midnight tea
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Post by midnight tea on Dec 7, 2017 19:24:58 GMT
-(_ANTHEM_)-
EA CFO Blake Jorgensen discusses new trends in gaming
From the 37th Nasdaq Investors Conference, Jorgensen believes: "...the goal is always to give players what they want. What players appear to want now then is to play fewer games but to invest more time in the games. This is certainly an interesting trend in gaming and EA will be focusing on keeping a game alive for longer so as to keep up with this trend....".
First, I'm not taking his words at face value. = players want less games but want to spend more time in the games. Actually, I find EA is pushing this nonsense to justify their doctrine of MTs with every online game.
Second, milking the player via in-game purchases with a longer life span = super profits for the company. Players buy the game for 70-90 bucks which pays for the front load cost of development. Then EA sits backs and counts the money while weak minded players by "boosters" to bypass grind+frustration. Actually, the core game is designed in such a way that unless you pay, game progression may slow down to a crawl. I don't think the message is as dire as you make it, or the idea as egregious - in fact I think it makes sense. I prefer quality product that lasts longer from stuff churned out quickly just to make a quick buck or something. It didn't serve Dragon Age well with Bioware having way too little time to make DA2 more than it is, and in fact it didn't seem to serve any game that was produced at tight schedule, like with Ubisoft and their yearly "Assassins Creed" releases, now immortalized with endless memes mocking the state of the series. They learned from that and took time to make AC:O... and it did pay off. Plus, the smaller amount of games from AAA developers means more breathing room for indies, who'd quickly fill the gap of those wanting to buy more games. TBH, I don't really see that many issues with this plan, regardless who actually concocted it. If the core game is enjoyable and code or engine is flexible enough to keep expanding the world and story for years to come... why would I want Anthem 2? Why producing a sequel is supposedly better than supporting an existing title? Now, if Anthem was a game like Dragon Age, where each new chapter unveils new portion of the story then I'd get it - I'd hate to be strung along for years. But we don't even know if Anthem is going to be structured like that... in fact it likely won't, given all the hullabaloo about title's planned longevity.
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Post by SofaJockey on Dec 7, 2017 19:57:07 GMT
[CFO Quote:] What players appear to want now then is to play fewer games but to invest more time in the games'Players' are not one homogenous group with a hive mind. Different players like different stuff. For sure, I would happily spend more time with specific games, but only if it was fun to do so, and the game didn't treat me like a cash cow.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 7, 2017 21:01:18 GMT
Nope, I will in all cases prefer to move to the next game or replay a shorter game again making different choices, than sink months in the same game trying to get to its end, with it's never being in the cards. I wished that my version of AC2 (the first one) did NOT have 2 DLCs, and I'd download a mod that would have made it possible to only play the main story in Inquisition via NG+ with character re-customization right away.
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Post by river82 on Dec 7, 2017 21:30:09 GMT
-(_ANTHEM_)-
EA CFO Blake Jorgensen discusses new trends in gaming
From the 37th Nasdaq Investors Conference, Jorgensen believes: "...the goal is always to give players what they want. What players appear to want now then is to play fewer games but to invest more time in the games. This is certainly an interesting trend in gaming and EA will be focusing on keeping a game alive for longer so as to keep up with this trend....". It's pretty easy to divine EA's background is in sports games, isn't it xD "Our customers have invested a million, bazillion hours into FIFA but not much anywhere else. And if we look at our competitors the same can be said about MLB:The Show, and NBA 2K. Therefore we can deduce that gamers only want a few games with gradual regular improvements Q.E.D"
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Post by midnight tea on Dec 7, 2017 21:40:24 GMT
-(_ANTHEM_)-
EA CFO Blake Jorgensen discusses new trends in gaming
From the 37th Nasdaq Investors Conference, Jorgensen believes: "...the goal is always to give players what they want. What players appear to want now then is to play fewer games but to invest more time in the games. This is certainly an interesting trend in gaming and EA will be focusing on keeping a game alive for longer so as to keep up with this trend....". It's pretty easy to divine EA's background is in sports games, isn't it xD "Our customers have invested a million, bazillion hours into FIFA but not much anywhere else. And if we look at our competitors the same can be said about MLB:The Show, and NBA 2K. Therefore we can deduce that gamers only want a few games with gradual regular improvements Q.E.D" I don't think it's that simple. Companies like that look at competitors and trends all across the market - why do you think AAA games start emulating mobile games, for example? Do you think that they don't pay attention to phenomenon of PUBG or that Hellblade barely broke even? They can't afford to just gaze inwards. That doesn't mean that they always reach correct conclusion, obviously, but there's a reason why Anthem has been christened to be a potential "Destiny-killer"... which ain't an EA game.
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Dec 7, 2017 22:03:01 GMT
[CFO Quote:] What players appear to want now then is to play fewer games but to invest more time in the games'Players' are not one homogenous group with a hive mind. Different players like different stuff. For sure, I would happily spend more time with specific games, but only if it was fun to do so, and the game didn't treat me like a cash cow. I couldn’t agree more. What a bunch of self-serving nonsense (in the original quote). It wasn’t that long ago that the same MBA types were talking up casual games that you can play for 10 minutes or less as the next big thing.
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Post by Hrungr on Dec 7, 2017 22:16:43 GMT
'Players' are not one homogenous group with a hive mind. Different players like different stuff. For sure, I would happily spend more time with specific games, but only if it was fun to do so, and the game didn't treat me like a cash cow. I couldn’t agree more. What a bunch of self-serving nonsense (in the original quote). It wasn’t that long ago that the same MBA types were talking up casual games that you can play for 10 minutes or less as the next big thing. Every time these people open their mouths... i.imgur.com/rHpbEdx.gif
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Post by Qui-Gon GlenN7 on Dec 7, 2017 22:36:56 GMT
Similar? MEA created a gaping wound, out of what was a scab and scar tissue. BF2 microtransaction shenaniganry doesn't help. I think that things can be cumulative. This to me is one of those cases. Perhaps, though DAI restored some of that trust as consensus GOTY for 2014 and Trespasser was a super DLC conclusion (on 'next gen' at least). Before that, The Extended Cut and Citadel recovered some of BioWare's reputation after ME3. We know BioWare is capable of great work. The Edmonton team has the experience and capability of pulling a rabbit out of the hat, we'll just need to see if they do. For sure, another flop would be seriously problematic, but to my mind, that is not yet inevitable, despite 'concerns'. You see, DAI was a disaster for me, and is still the only BioWare game I have never finished a second playthrough of. I know I am in a "sorta" minority here because of the press accolades. However, I think those accolades say more about the quality of the press than the quality of the game. YMMV. I agree that it is far from inevitable. This is not a sinking ship yet, but the bailing buckets are breaking down.
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Post by Gandalf the Fabulous on Dec 7, 2017 22:54:48 GMT
Perhaps, though DAI restored some of that trust as consensus GOTY for 2014 and Trespasser was a super DLC conclusion (on 'next gen' at least). Before that, The Extended Cut and Citadel recovered some of BioWare's reputation after ME3. We know BioWare is capable of great work. The Edmonton team has the experience and capability of pulling a rabbit out of the hat, we'll just need to see if they do. For sure, another flop would be seriously problematic, but to my mind, that is not yet inevitable, despite 'concerns'. You see, DAI was a disaster for me, and is still the only BioWare game I have never finished a second playthrough of. I know I am in a "sorta" minority here because of the press accolades. However, I think those accolades say more about the quality of the press than the quality of the game. YMMV. I agree that it is far from inevitable. This is not a sinking ship yet, but the bailing buckets are breaking down. Gotta admit I did not think much of Inquisition either, a little bit perplexed as to why Inquisition got such a favorable reception while Andromeda did not as from what I can see both made the same mistakes, best guess it involves either the fact it was not as bad as Dragon Age 2 and was thus seen as a hopeful sign that Bioware was getting back on track, the fact that it was released pre Witcher 3 while Andromeda was released post Witcher 3, the fact that it was a pretty dull year for games or a mixture of these factors.
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Post by SofaJockey on Dec 7, 2017 23:05:04 GMT
This is not a sinking ship yet, but the bailing buckets are breaking down. Makes me think of the Argo heading to navigate the Clashing Rocks. Another ship has sailed poorly and has just gone down in the channel leaving dangerous debris. Only if the skilled crew has a well-built ship do they have a chance. But they will also need King Triton (the trust of the public) to prevent rocks smashing their enterprise to pieces... (sorry that was a fanciful analogy, from an 'oldie'... )
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midnight tea
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Post by midnight tea on Dec 7, 2017 23:55:19 GMT
You see, DAI was a disaster for me, and is still the only BioWare game I have never finished a second playthrough of. I know I am in a "sorta" minority here because of the press accolades. However, I think those accolades say more about the quality of the press than the quality of the game. YMMV. I agree that it is far from inevitable. This is not a sinking ship yet, but the bailing buckets are breaking down. Gotta admit I did not think much of Inquisition either, a little bit perplexed as to why Inquisition got such a favorable reception while Andromeda did not as from what I can see both made the same mistakes, best guess it involves either the fact it was not as bad as Dragon Age 2 and was thus seen as a hopeful sign that Bioware was getting back on track, the fact that it was released pre Witcher 3 while Andromeda was released post Witcher 3, the fact that it was a pretty dull year for games or a mixture of these factors. 2014 was the year of Shadow of Mordor, Dark Souls II, Divinity: Original Sin, South Park: SoT, Wolfenstein: TNO, Super Smash Bros, Far Cry 4, among others. The narrative of a 'dull year' simply doesn't hold up.
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