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Post by midnight tea on Dec 8, 2017 3:29:26 GMT
Gotta admit I did not think much of Inquisition either, a little bit perplexed as to why Inquisition got such a favorable reception while Andromeda did not as from what I can see both made the same mistakes, best guess it involves either the fact it was not as bad as Dragon Age 2 and was thus seen as a hopeful sign that Bioware was getting back on track, the fact that it was released pre Witcher 3 while Andromeda was released post Witcher 3, the fact that it was a pretty dull year for games or a mixture of these factors. Hmmm... If I were to compare ME:A to DA:I, I'd say that both were fairly mediocre. Both frustrated me in different ways. And in both cases the story was lacking something to make it truly engaging and memorable, for me they failed to capitalize on the frankly impressive potential that these games had. Personal tastes and all. I thought it was really good and pushed the story exactly into places I like. Different people see different potentials.
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Post by smilesja on Dec 8, 2017 4:26:36 GMT
I do remember people accusing EA of paying off journalists to give DAI those awards.
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Post by Gandalf the Fabulous on Dec 8, 2017 5:22:02 GMT
Gotta admit I did not think much of Inquisition either, a little bit perplexed as to why Inquisition got such a favorable reception while Andromeda did not as from what I can see both made the same mistakes, best guess it involves either the fact it was not as bad as Dragon Age 2 and was thus seen as a hopeful sign that Bioware was getting back on track, the fact that it was released pre Witcher 3 while Andromeda was released post Witcher 3, the fact that it was a pretty dull year for games or a mixture of these factors. 2014 was the year of Shadow of Mordor, Dark Souls II, Divinity: Original Sin, South Park: SoT, Wolfenstein: TNO, Super Smash Bros, Far Cry 4, among others. The narrative of a 'dull year' simply doesn't hold up. Obviously different opinions and all that but even among the games you list none of them were truly groundbreaking or noteworthy apart from Divinity: Original Sin and it was always going to have a hard time winning GOTY awards due to it's lack of mass AAA appeal despite being one of the only games released that year that actually deserved it. Shadow of Mordor while interesting was little more than an Assassin's Creed clone with a Middle Earth license, Dark Souls II was alright but nowhere near as fresh or exciting as it's predecessor, Wolfenstein: TNO was pretty much just a mindless corridor shooter, don't think Super Smash Bros Wii U really added anything that previous installments did not have apart from an extended roster, and I am pretty sure Far Cry 4 was generally seen as inferior to Far Cry 3 (not to mention dull Ubisoft open world design) however I do have to admit I enjoyed the antagonist of 4 far more than I did Vaas. I did really enjoy Stick of Truth though, however apart from the South park humour the game probably wasn't the most impressive in terms of gameplay.
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Post by midnight tea on Dec 8, 2017 5:54:51 GMT
2014 was the year of Shadow of Mordor, Dark Souls II, Divinity: Original Sin, South Park: SoT, Wolfenstein: TNO, Super Smash Bros, Far Cry 4, among others. The narrative of a 'dull year' simply doesn't hold up. Obviously different opinions and all that but even among the games you list none of them were truly groundbreaking or noteworthy apart from Divinity: Original Sin and it was always going to have a hard time winning GOTY awards due to it's lack of mass AAA appeal despite being one of the only games released that year that actually deserved it. Shadow of Mordor while interesting was little more than an Assassin's Creed clone with a Middle Earth license, Dark Souls II was alright but nowhere near as fresh or exciting as it's predecessor, Wolfenstein: TNO was pretty much just a mindless corridor shooter, don't think Super Smash Bros Wii U really added anything that previous installments did not have apart from an extended roster, and I am pretty sure Far Cry 4 was generally seen as inferior to Far Cry 3 (not to mention dull Ubisoft open world design) however I do have to admit I enjoyed the antagonist of 4 far more than I did Vaas. I did really enjoy Stick of Truth though, however apart from the South park humour the game probably wasn't the most impressive in terms of gameplay. You're just moving the goalpost. All the titles mentioned - plus DAI - have been considered excellent/noteworthy generally speaking, but apparently it's not a special year if stuff ain't 'groundbreaking'... which is a poor way to measure a given year in the first place, given that the medium is still relatively young and is closely tied to advancements in technology or shifts on new platform, which in itself brings new ways for games to be innovative in ways older titles couldn't be. 2014 was full of great, overall really well-liked games - and just because every year shifts the goalpost in terms of innovation or excellence doesn't cancel out the achievements of games from previous years.
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Post by Gandalf the Fabulous on Dec 8, 2017 6:34:23 GMT
Obviously different opinions and all that but even among the games you list none of them were truly groundbreaking or noteworthy apart from Divinity: Original Sin and it was always going to have a hard time winning GOTY awards due to it's lack of mass AAA appeal despite being one of the only games released that year that actually deserved it. Shadow of Mordor while interesting was little more than an Assassin's Creed clone with a Middle Earth license, Dark Souls II was alright but nowhere near as fresh or exciting as it's predecessor, Wolfenstein: TNO was pretty much just a mindless corridor shooter, don't think Super Smash Bros Wii U really added anything that previous installments did not have apart from an extended roster, and I am pretty sure Far Cry 4 was generally seen as inferior to Far Cry 3 (not to mention dull Ubisoft open world design) however I do have to admit I enjoyed the antagonist of 4 far more than I did Vaas. I did really enjoy Stick of Truth though, however apart from the South park humour the game probably wasn't the most impressive in terms of gameplay. You're just moving the goalpost. All the titles mentioned - plus DAI - have been considered excellent/noteworthy generally speaking, but apparently it's not a special year if stuff ain't 'groundbreaking'... which is a poor way to measure a given year in the first place, given that the medium is still relatively young and is closely tied to advancements in technology or shifts on new platform, which in itself brings new ways for games to be innovative in ways older titles couldn't be. 2014 was full of great, overall really well-liked games - and just because every year shifts the goalpost in terms of innovation or excellence doesn't cancel out the achievements of games from previous years. Having trouble finding the right words to explain what I mean but if it sits better with you we can just use the word noteworthy if you like? And by noteworthy I mean games that really stood out to me as relatively impressive or strong compared to previous years, while there were enjoyable games released in 2014 (DAI I do not count among them), generally speaking the releases in 2014 just weren't as strong as previous years or subsequent years, at best most of the games released that year were ok but not truly amazing. You may have a different opinion but that is just how I feel on the matter.
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Post by Sanunes on Dec 8, 2017 14:15:26 GMT
You're just moving the goalpost. All the titles mentioned - plus DAI - have been considered excellent/noteworthy generally speaking, but apparently it's not a special year if stuff ain't 'groundbreaking'... which is a poor way to measure a given year in the first place, given that the medium is still relatively young and is closely tied to advancements in technology or shifts on new platform, which in itself brings new ways for games to be innovative in ways older titles couldn't be. 2014 was full of great, overall really well-liked games - and just because every year shifts the goalpost in terms of innovation or excellence doesn't cancel out the achievements of games from previous years. Having trouble finding the right words to explain what I mean but if it sits better with you we can just use the word noteworthy if you like? And by noteworthy I mean games that really stood out to me as relatively impressive or strong compared to previous years, while there were enjoyable games released in 2014 (DAI I do not count among them), generally speaking the releases in 2014 just weren't as strong as previous years or subsequent years, at best most of the games released that year were ok but not truly amazing. You may have a different opinion but that is just how I feel on the matter. Now the way you are coming across is that you define what makes a good or weak year for gaming because your opinion is the standard that defines what makes a game noteworthy. I know plenty of people that thought Alien: Isolation was a brilliant retake on survival horror or that Divinity Original Sin was amazing because it went back to the roots of the genre. There needs to be something that isn't objective to declare that Inquisition got off easy because otherwise to me it just seems like people are making excuses because they didn't like the game.
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Post by Sartoz on Dec 8, 2017 14:34:12 GMT
All the titles mentioned - plus DAI - have been considered excellent/noteworthy generally speaking, Snip -(_ANTHEM_)-
Eh? Generally speaking, I guess so but...
Coming from DA:O and DA2, DA:I is not PC keyboard friendly. Also, a total redesign to meet their master's MTs directives and with the spell system gutted and the MP game a total unwelcome "feature". Add vast open areas with empty content, stupid quests, shards and so on, call me unimpressed, though many liked it and it even received the GOTY award. Still, in the end, the MT system in Multiplayer ruined it, imo.
Looking at Anthem, the MT + LB mechanics will help break or make the game. BIO, for all its accomplishments, knows the iron fist in the velvet glove that EA shows the studio. And, if BIO wants excellence, the studio better ensure quality over launch deadlines. Ubisoft, among other developers, certainly learned that lesson as they have delayed Far Cray 5 and The Crew 2. Reason? "This decision is in line with our strategic vision of developing even more engaging and higher quality experiences for gamers,".
Now, I take that PR line with salt. Nevertheless, BIO better copy that strategic vision to avoid SWBF2's disastrous launch. So, if Anthem is delayed to 2019, I will be unsurprised as the brand is in hot water because of ME:A. SWBF2 added to its development misery, I'm sure. 🌸
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Post by Gandalf the Fabulous on Dec 8, 2017 15:20:02 GMT
Having trouble finding the right words to explain what I mean but if it sits better with you we can just use the word noteworthy if you like? And by noteworthy I mean games that really stood out to me as relatively impressive or strong compared to previous years, while there were enjoyable games released in 2014 (DAI I do not count among them), generally speaking the releases in 2014 just weren't as strong as previous years or subsequent years, at best most of the games released that year were ok but not truly amazing. You may have a different opinion but that is just how I feel on the matter. Now the way you are coming across is that you define what makes a good or weak year for gaming because your opinion is the standard that defines what makes a game noteworthy. For me I do, who better to determine what I find noteworthy than myself? If you want to subscribe to the VGAs universal hive mind on what you should and shouldn't be excited about then go ahead however personally I like to think for myself. Now you can disagree with my opinion and that is fine, but when it comes to deciding for myself how strong or noteworthy the games were in a particular year I think I will form my own opinion. On the subject of Alien: Isolation and Divinity: Original Sin while I can't speak on Alien: Isolation due to having never played it I do think Divinity: Original Sin was a great game and far more deserving of GOTY than any other game released that year, problem is both Alien: Isolation and Divinity: Original Sin never had the mass market AAA appeal needed to even get recognized at the VGAs. The VGAs are mostly about recognizing the games with the most marketing hype and the games that generated the most buzz and you would be lucky to find many people who had even heard of Original Sin that year. Also to put things into perspective if I remember correctly at the time Inquisition's main competition for GOTY was Bayonetta 2 and even then many of the panelists deciding on GOTY actually sent out tweets saying how they were actively going out of their way to make sure Bayonetta lost because the strong female lead they all claim to want in a video game was too sexy. Looking back on it I am pretty sure 2014 was more notable for it's disappointments (Destiny, Watch Dogs ect) than it's hits.
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Post by mmoblitz on Dec 8, 2017 15:48:36 GMT
IT all comes down to timing. I'm really confident that had DAI been released 2013 or 215-2017 it wouldn't have won against the competition those years. For me DAI was the worst of the DA series.
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Post by Sartoz on Dec 8, 2017 17:25:49 GMT
-(_ANTHEM_)-
Bungie, if you recall, is another studio that got caught in the LBgate. Curse of Osiris, the new DLC, from Bungie has also been seeing some backlash for its length and locking base game content behind a paywall.
A recent job posting in Bungie's career page implies the hard lesson they learned is to avoid getting caught.
Bungie is seeking a game designer to: “Create sustainable Player Progression and chase through Destiny 2’s Bright Engram” and “Use data and design sensibilities to define strategies for maintaining ideal engagement patterns and maximizing player satisfaction”.
So, "define strategies for maintaining ideal patterns", is now an euphemism for "don't make it obvious"?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 8, 2017 19:39:54 GMT
Perhaps, though DAI restored some of that trust as consensus GOTY for 2014 and Trespasser was a super DLC conclusion (on 'next gen' at least). Before that, The Extended Cut and Citadel recovered some of BioWare's reputation after ME3. We know BioWare is capable of great work. The Edmonton team has the experience and capability of pulling a rabbit out of the hat, we'll just need to see if they do. For sure, another flop would be seriously problematic, but to my mind, that is not yet inevitable, despite 'concerns'. You see, DAI was a disaster for me, and is still the only BioWare game I have never finished a second playthrough of. I know I am in a "sorta" minority here because of the press accolades. However, I think those accolades say more about the quality of the press than the quality of the game. YMMV. I agree that it is far from inevitable. This is not a sinking ship yet, but the bailing buckets are breaking down. Same here. NWN1 and DA:I stand out for me as the only two BioWARE titles I did not have a use for. I go further in my deviation from the norm, in that DAI was such a crushing disappointment for me because I totally adored DA2, and my faith in BiOWARE was restored with Andromeda's release as it rectified pretty much all my misgivings about DAI tedious design strategies and not my cup of tea artwork.
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Post by midnight tea on Dec 8, 2017 20:06:32 GMT
All the titles mentioned - plus DAI - have been considered excellent/noteworthy generally speaking, Snip -(_ANTHEM_)-
Eh? Generally speaking, I guess so but...
Coming from DA:O and DA2, DA:I is not PC keyboard friendly. A complete non-point. "Excellent" doesn't mean flawless. Or should I remind you that what is considered one of the best RPGs on market - Skyrim - also got flack for not being keyboard friendly? Only that's not correct. We know - even from a DA developer that lurks on this forum - that a lot design decisions combat-wise didn't stem from MP or 'meeting their master's MT', but because of a.) working with new engine and not having all tools yet and b.) decision to go 5-platform, including old-gen. Also - I do find it amusing that only a few years ago everybody was absolutely convinced that it's consoles that 'ruined stuff'. But since now 'multiplayer' is the devil, everybody started claiming - with absolute conviction - that it's multiplayer that ruined stuff. Plus, it's vast open area with empty content for you. Since I paid attention to the game, its story and lore, the areas were far from empty. Like you said - many liked it, hence GOTY. I don't think many think that Anthem won't be under microscopic scrutiny because people have a lot of grievances against EA or AAA gaming in general. But I'm not sure what delay has to do with anything? Many games, especially huge ones are delayed and have been so long before SWBF2 debacle, which includes recent Bioware games.
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Post by smilesja on Dec 8, 2017 20:29:09 GMT
2014 was the year of Shadow of Mordor, Dark Souls II, Divinity: Original Sin, South Park: SoT, Wolfenstein: TNO, Super Smash Bros, Far Cry 4, among others. The narrative of a 'dull year' simply doesn't hold up. Obviously different opinions and all that but even among the games you list none of them were truly groundbreaking or noteworthy apart from Divinity: Original Sin and it was always going to have a hard time winning GOTY awards due to it's lack of mass AAA appeal despite being one of the only games released that year that actually deserved it. Shadow of Mordor while interesting was little more than an Assassin's Creed clone with a Middle Earth license, Dark Souls II was alright but nowhere near as fresh or exciting as it's predecessor, Wolfenstein: TNO was pretty much just a mindless corridor shooter, don't think Super Smash Bros Wii U really added anything that previous installments did not have apart from an extended roster, and I am pretty sure Far Cry 4 was generally seen as inferior to Far Cry 3 (not to mention dull Ubisoft open world design) however I do have to admit I enjoyed the antagonist of 4 far more than I did Vaas. I did really enjoy Stick of Truth though, however apart from the South park humour the game probably wasn't the most impressive in terms of gameplay. They were well-received games regardless.
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Post by Heimdall on Dec 8, 2017 20:33:55 GMT
my faith in BiOWARE was restored with Andromeda's release as it rectified pretty much all my misgivings about DAI tedious design strategies and not my cup of tea artwork. How so? I’m genuinely curious, because my experience was pretty much the reverse. I had my misgivings about Inquisition, but ultimately I felt it redeemed itself. On the other hand, I felt Andromeda had a lot of the same problems only worse (I don’t hate it though)
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Post by Deleted on Dec 8, 2017 20:42:43 GMT
my faith in BiOWARE was restored with Andromeda's release as it rectified pretty much all my misgivings about DAI tedious design strategies and not my cup of tea artwork. How so? I’m genuinely curious, because my experience was pretty much the reverse. I had my misgivings about Inquisition, but ultimately I felt it redeemed itself. On the other hand, I felt Andromeda had a lot of the same problems only worse (I don’t hate it though) It got rid of all the PowerPoints so you can only do main story, all the repetitive tasks could be skipped in NG+ And you can rerun the game fast with just different choices and Romances, the narration is fun and upbeat, the character cast is smaller, the stronghold is convenient, there is no war table, crafting is easy and gathering is replaced by MP rewards, the gameplay is fast, you heal up after every battle, no potions limitations, gearing is easy, the game is far shorter if you wNt it to be, the mount is great and needs only be upgraded once to get you everywhere and stays like that in NG+, Reyes is awesome romance that likes girls, and the hair and skin looks decent, the human races look distinctive, I love the vaults far more than rifts and there are far fewer of them, there are far less areas overall, everyone is voiced & there are no silly text based quests, you do not have to return to the same point on the map after doing operation elsewhere, maps look like they are art, not photographs, and Ryder has personality.... may be something I forgetting, but that’s what comes to mind. In short, Andromeda felt focused, pretty, fast and flashy, while Inquisition bored me and told me: “no, you can’t” a whole lot, plus looked ugly to me. Also, when I went into Andromeda I expected a fair bit of ME2/3 with some ME1 thrown in, and that's exactly what I got. But I went to Inquisition expecting DA2 with some DA:O thrown in, and oh, sh*t was I wrong. While Andromeda included everything I loved about ME franchise and some, Inquisition meticulously pruned out everything I loved about DA:O and DA2, particularly DA2...
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Post by Heimdall on Dec 8, 2017 21:05:45 GMT
How so? I’m genuinely curious, because my experience was pretty much the reverse. I had my misgivings about Inquisition, but ultimately I felt it redeemed itself. On the other hand, I felt Andromeda had a lot of the same problems only worse (I don’t hate it though) It got rid of all the PowerPoints so you can only do main story, all the repetitive tasks could be skipped in NG+ And you can rerun the game fast with just different choices and Romances, the narration is fun and upbeat, the character cast is smaller, the stronghold is convenient, there is no war table, crafting is easy and gathering is replaced by MP rewards, the gameplay is fast, you heal up after every battle, no potions limitations, gearing is easy, the game is far shorter if you wNt it to be, the mount is great and needs only be upgraded once to get you everywhere and stays like that in NG+, Reyes is awesome romance that likes girls, and the hair and skin looks decent, the human races look distinctive, I love the vaults far more than rifts and there are far fewer of them, there are far less areas overall, everyone is voiced & there are no silly text based quests, you do not have to return to the same point on the map after doing operation elsewhere, maps look like they are art, not photographs, and Ryder has personality.... may be something I forgetting, but that’s what comes to mind. Different tastes I guess. I actually thought the narrative was too cheerful and lacking in a sense of threat, with characters that often fell flat. A lot of the things about the open world that bothered you about the open world in Inquisition were minor for me. On the other hand, I thought the world areas were far less interesting in Andromeda though that may just be a factor of my finding Dragon Age’s world far more interesting than Andromeda’s (And Andromeda’s setting generally less interesting than the Milky Way setting). There are actually some quests in Andromeda given through found datapads I think. The Inquisitor’s less defined personality was actually a positive for me. Ryder’s the first Bioware protagonist that I actually don’t feel is “mine”. YMMV, right?
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Post by Heimdall on Dec 8, 2017 21:17:12 GMT
One criticism of both games:
Bioware, do we really need so many deserts?!?
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Post by river82 on Dec 8, 2017 21:18:07 GMT
Wow, all this talk about awards. I feel the need to join in :3
If we're taking awards seriously when talking about DA:I and its quality, does that mean we also take Andromeda's lack of nominations as seriously? If Dragon Age Inquisition won GOTY in a good year, then Andromeda not getting nominated (in also a good year) must mean objectively speaking it's quite a bit worse than Inquisition, right?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 8, 2017 21:20:19 GMT
Well, Ryder had a fairly defined personality, but like with Hawke, I accepted it and vowed it and felt I had enough wiggle room. Inquisitor was the worst of both worlds for me. Neither he had a cool personality of his own, nor did he allowed me to express myself through a lot of choices like the unvoiced characters used to. He was back to the good old times when the protagonist was the most boring character of the cast, only sans the ability to chose what happens, from small things like killing the guys who annoyed him to huge sweeping choices that changed everything in the world.
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Post by midnight tea on Dec 8, 2017 21:21:37 GMT
One criticism of both games: Bioware, do we really need so many deserts?!? Yesssssss. I can't help it. I like deserts. Though there could be variety to it, like blue deserts or something.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 8, 2017 21:36:56 GMT
One criticism of both games: Bioware, do we really need so many deserts?!? Well, Anthem is heading that way. Small walled settlement, and the outside is the uninhabited jungle, aka desert with leafy greens.
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Heimdall
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Post by Heimdall on Dec 8, 2017 21:45:56 GMT
Well, Ryder had a fairly defined personality, but like with Hawke, I accepted it and vowed it and felt I had enough wiggle room. Inquisitor was the worst of both worlds for me. Neither he had a cool personality of his own, nor did he allowed me to express myself through a lot of choices like the unvoiced characters used to. He was back to the good old times when the protagonist was the most boring character of the cast, only sans the ability to chose what happens, from small things like killing the guys who annoyed him to huge sweeping choices that changed everything in the world. With Hawke, I always felt her character only made sense if you stick to one of the three personality options. If I didn’t she often felt terribly inconsistent, but the game also encouraged consistency despite ‘diplomatic’ not always being the best tone for a situation. I felt the Inquisitor’s more subdued personality actually made roleplaying them a lot more dynamic. Ryder’s problem for me is that he feels like the exact same character almost every time I play. He felt much more limited than, say, Shepard in terms of the ways I could play him. The Inquisitor’s many racial background options helped with this, in that I don’t think of my Inquisitor’s as minor variations on the same person.
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Dec 8, 2017 21:50:13 GMT
I couldn’t agree more. What a bunch of self-serving nonsense (in the original quote). It wasn’t that long ago that the same MBA types were talking up casual games that you can play for 10 minutes or less as the next big thing. Every time these people open their mouths... i.imgur.com/rHpbEdx.gifWell played, Sanza, well played (though I don’t think the book version is going to give old Littlefinger quite the tidy come-uppance).
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Post by SofaJockey on Dec 8, 2017 21:54:41 GMT
objectively speaking it's quite a bit worse than Inquisition, right? Whilst I think DAI was a better game than MEA (and I enjoyed both) Most reviewers made less of an issue of DAI's flaws and more of an issue of MEA's. It will be interesting to see whether Anthem's reviews get distorted in any way by the lens of opinions about the developer and publisher.
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Post by river82 on Dec 8, 2017 21:58:51 GMT
Whilst I think DAI was a better game than MEA (and I enjoyed both) Most reviewers made less of an issue of DAI's flaws and more of an issue of MEA's. It will be interesting to see whether Anthem's reviews get distorted in any way by the lens of opinions about the developer and publisher. If reviewers (and award ceremonies) are unreliable, then why are we supposed to trust them when they dish out good scores. Those same reviewers who gave distorted scores for Andromeda judged Inquisition also, and if scores can be distorted one way they can certainly be distorted the other. So either they're untrustworthy or they're not, they can't be "they're untrustworthy when my opinions don't agree with them".
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