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Post by shinary on Oct 13, 2017 0:02:45 GMT
So I just played inquisition through again and at the end of Trespasser something struck me as VERY odd.
My Hawke survived the fade (sorry Stroud) and romanced Anders, who she let live. Varric is pissed at Anders, yet at the end I got an Epilogue that sounded sort of like this "Varric continued his rebuilding efforts in Kirkwall with the help from Hawke."
I know I am nitpicking here, but I can't imagine any scenario, where Anders would be welcome back at Kirkwall. So either my Hawke left Anders in a cave somewhere, or they went by the black emporium.
Anyway, I just thought this very odd - though I know not to put too much stock in the epilogues.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Oct 13, 2017 0:05:53 GMT
Varric may grant Anders a pardon if Hawke vouches for him, or perhaps Hawke and Anders live outside the city limits in some nice country house but still close enough for Hawke to help.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 13, 2017 1:09:51 GMT
Yes, I also picked up on that. Anders/Hawke romantic ending was not really fit into DA3 plot-lines well. Varric becoming a Viscount to start with was another very bitter thing when you had Hawke who became a Viscount.
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Post by shinary on Oct 13, 2017 2:43:32 GMT
Yes, I also picked up on that. Anders/Hawke romantic ending was not really fit into DA3 plot-lines well. Varric becoming a Viscount to start with was another very bitter thing when you had Hawke who became a Viscount. Well, somewhat. I actually thought that a romanced Anders had the best reason for not being as Hawke's side, when she/he aided the inquisition. It is also one of the reasons, why Hawke going to Wieshaupt might make sense (unless Bethany or Carver are in the wardens as well). In general I actually think a Anders romance fit the part the best, until you came to this epilogue.
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Post by shinary on Oct 13, 2017 2:50:22 GMT
Varric may grant Anders a pardon if Hawke vouches for him, or perhaps Hawke and Anders live outside the city limits in some nice country house but still close enough for Hawke to help. True, but seeing how Varric feels about Anders I have a hard time picturing it. However, I have always speculated that Varric's biggest issue with Anders was that he cares about him, and feels betrayed. The "I don't know, where he is and I don't want to know," line seems to suggest that even though he has his issues with Anders he still doesn't want to be able to relay information about him(it's my theory at least). Then again, if Anders is still with Hawke, then this would be a lie - so who knows. But then again, he does outright hate Sebastian in Inquisition, which I didn't really pick up on in DA2. Though they were clearly not close, they didn't seem to have a hostile relationship. And he did forgive Bianca relatively easy for being the cause of red lyrium being spread all over southern Thedas. So, who knows. He is a bit of an enigma.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Oct 13, 2017 3:42:42 GMT
Varric may grant Anders a pardon if Hawke vouches for him, or perhaps Hawke and Anders live outside the city limits in some nice country house but still close enough for Hawke to help. True, but seeing how Varric feels about Anders I have a hard time picturing it. However, I have always speculated that Varric's biggest issue with Anders was that he cares about him, and feels betrayed. The "I don't know, where he is and I don't want to know," line seems to suggest that even though he has his issues with Anders he still doesn't want to be able to relay information about him(it's my theory at least). Then again, if Anders is still with Hawke, then this would be a lie - so who knows. But then again, he does outright hate Sebastian in Inquisition, which I didn't really pick up on in DA2. Though they were clearly not close, they didn't seem to have a hostile relationship. And he did forgive Bianca relatively easy for being the cause of red lyrium being spread all over southern Thedas. So, who knows. He is a bit of an enigma. Basically, I think that as much as Varric hates Anders he likes Hawke more so would set aside his feelings of Anders for Hawke's sake. Not forgive Anders or anything, but at least let him live in the city so that Hawke would be with the man they love.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 13, 2017 11:51:02 GMT
Well, I suppose it does not fit well with my Hawke, who'd never let go of political power and see consolidating it as the only way to protect Anders. Instead of trying to run. I have the same problem with Inquisitor's ending, he simply has no choice but to retain and subjugate the inquisition to his will to be in a position of power to ensure Dorian's safety in Tevinter. Those two are politically active lovers who wander into danger without a real safety network to protect them, so it falls to my character to do the dirty work, otherwise I just can't see them surviving.
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Post by Artemis on Oct 13, 2017 16:55:50 GMT
My Hawke romanced Fenris, and I got the same ending. I think that happens regardless of who Hawke's romance is. DAI didn't really give a shit about your romance from DA2, sadly. I mean, I'm still rolling my eyes at Hawke leaving Fenris behind to come help the Inquisition for just... no reason at all.
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Post by Catilina on Oct 13, 2017 18:44:28 GMT
Varric may grant Anders a pardon if Hawke vouches for him, or perhaps Hawke and Anders live outside the city limits in some nice country house but still close enough for Hawke to help. True, but seeing how Varric feels about Anders I have a hard time picturing it. However, I have always speculated that Varric's biggest issue with Anders was that he cares about him, and feels betrayed. The "I don't know, where he is and I don't want to know," line seems to suggest that even though he has his issues with Anders he still doesn't want to be able to relay information about him(it's my theory at least). Then again, if Anders is still with Hawke, then this would be a lie - so who knows. But then again, he does outright hate Sebastian in Inquisition, which I didn't really pick up on in DA2. Though they were clearly not close, they didn't seem to have a hostile relationship. And he did forgive Bianca relatively easy for being the cause of red lyrium being spread all over southern Thedas. So, who knows. He is a bit of an enigma. Exactly so. Varric was Anders best friend in Kirkwall (except Hawke, ofc.), he really cares about him, but he loves Kirkwall and loves the peace as well. His tools rather the persuasion, bribe, lie – if possible, he avoids the violence. (Easy to be rival him with aggressive Hawke.) Anders ruined his city and caused a war. Vivienne (about Anders): "What could he possibly have hoped to accomplish with such madness?" Varric: "Exactly what he got: a whole lot of innocent people killing each other." So yes, Varric really angry at Anders, and feels betrayed. I don't think, that this part of the sentence: "...I don't want to know," is a lie. I suppose he really doesn't want to know, where is Anders. But possible the whole sentence is a (half)truth. He perhaps doesn't know, where is ANDERS exactly. But he knows, how he can contact HAWKE. Varric is a loyal friend, whatever happens. (Yes, Bianca is a good example.) When the Inquisitor back from the Fade, Varric write a letter to Hawke LIs, except Anders. This also can be interpreted as his anger toward him, but as a lie too. But Varric mentions in a banter, that Anders will follow Hawke. According to my scenario, Hawke and Anders will not return to Kirkwall. Not really excluded, that they will live near of Kirkwall.
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Post by Catilina on Oct 13, 2017 18:48:46 GMT
Yes, I also picked up on that. Anders/Hawke romantic ending was not really fit into DA3 plot-lines well. Varric becoming a Viscount to start with was another very bitter thing when you had Hawke who became a Viscount. The Templars betrayed Viscount Hawke, and forced him/her to exile. (Sorry, but I'm very satisfied with this end...)
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Post by phoray on Oct 13, 2017 18:51:25 GMT
Yes, I also picked up on that. Anders/Hawke romantic ending was not really fit into DA3 plot-lines well. Varric becoming a Viscount to start with was another very bitter thing when you had Hawke who became a Viscount. The Templars betrayed Viscount Hawke, and forced him to exile. (Sorry, but I'm very satisfied with this end...) Wasn't it that the Red Lyrium made them turn on Hawke, Hawke just hadn't known the significance of how the red lyrium was affecting them? Though you'd think after their Templar Commander went insane and literally turned into a statue of red lyrium, they'd be the least inclined to take it no matter what their superiors said.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 13, 2017 18:52:09 GMT
Yes, I also picked up on that. Anders/Hawke romantic ending was not really fit into DA3 plot-lines well. Varric becoming a Viscount to start with was another very bitter thing when you had Hawke who became a Viscount. The Templars betrayed Viscount Hawke, and forced him to exile. (Sorry, but I'm very satisfied with this end...) I am not. It does not jive with what happens in the end of the game, with Cullen and his men bending the knee. They were shown loyal, and betrayal was just thrown in to take what Hawke earned from him/her. And I don't like my rewards forcefully taken away from my character behind the scene.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 13, 2017 18:55:37 GMT
Also, Varric treats Kirkwall like something so irrelevant, and pins the harbour keys on the Inquisitor like it's some trifling pin or brooch. It was just terrible to reduce Kirkwall and Hawke's achievements and city to Varric's toy to dispense with.
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Post by Catilina on Oct 13, 2017 18:56:46 GMT
The Templars betrayed Viscount Hawke, and forced him to exile. (Sorry, but I'm very satisfied with this end...) Wasn't it that the Red Lyrium made them turn on Hawke, Hawke just hadn't known the significance of how the red lyrium was affecting them? Though you'd think after their Templar Commander went insane and literally turned into a statue of red lyrium, they'd be the least inclined to take it no matter what their superiors said. I tend to believe, that the Templars so stupids.  Now seriously: yes, they saw, that their commander became lyrium statue, but... you saw Mages, who knew that other mages became an uncontrollable abomination, but they still deal demons...? They are people, the Templars, and Mages too. The keyword is the temptation always. The red lyrium is stronger than the normal. The red lyrium gives more power.
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Post by Catilina on Oct 13, 2017 19:07:19 GMT
The Templars betrayed Viscount Hawke, and forced him to exile. (Sorry, but I'm very satisfied with this end...) I am not. It does not jive with what happens in the end of the game, with Cullen and his men bending the knee. They were shown loyal, and betrayal was just thrown in to take what Hawke earned from him/her. And I don't like my rewards forcefully taken away from my character behind the scene. I said, sorry! Don't be naive! Cullen's men knelt before Hawke, true... but "the people bend their knee to quickly"... haha and so quickly betray as well. Why would the Templars different than everyone else?
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Post by phoray on Oct 13, 2017 19:25:27 GMT
So, Catilina I see the sacred name, Anders, has brought you to the thread.  I don't really get why they bothered to let Hawke become Viscount at all. Wasn't their original goal to make Hawke into a Shepard- Viscount Hawke can't go on adventures, that'd be like Udina leading the Normandy. It was just doomed to never be canon. Still, I don't know why the lack of a current Votable Title would prevent the Vael marriage.
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Post by Catilina on Oct 13, 2017 19:39:56 GMT
So, Catilina I see the sacred name, Anders, has brought you to the thread.  I don't really get why they bothered to let Hawke become Viscount at all. Wasn't their original goal to make Hawke into a Shepard- Viscount Hawke can't go on adventures, that'd be like Udina leading the Normandy. It was just doomed to never be canon. Still, I don't know why the lack of a current Votable Title would prevent the Vael marriage. Haha, of course! Viscount Varric can go on adventures (Trespasser...) Hawke's story not about the high career, and long, happy, peaceful life. Some of those always miss... Hmm, I see, not Anders' romance got the most debatable end: Sebastian's romance even worse... So: if Hawke romanced and married Sebastian, still follows Varric to Kirkwall, instead of Sebastian to Starkhaven? This would be the laziest developer work... We speak about one-two sentence at the end, and a wallpaper! It really would have been too fucking hard? Okay, at least equal: Sebastian and Anders doomed as well according to the Bioware...
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Post by shinary on Oct 13, 2017 20:08:13 GMT
Exactly so. Varric was Anders best friend in Kirkwall (except Hawke, ofc.), he really cares about him, but he loves Kirkwall and loves the peace as well. His tools rather the persuasion, bribe, lie – if possible, he avoids the violence. (Easy to be rival him with aggressive Hawke.) Anders ruined his city and caused a war. Vivienne (about Anders): "What could he possibly have hoped to accomplish with such madness?" Varric: "Exactly what he got: a whole lot of innocent people killing each other." So yes, Varric really angry at Anders, and feels betrayed. I don't think, that this part of the sentence: "...I don't want to know," is a lie. I suppose he really doesn't want to know, where is Anders. But possible the whole sentence is a (half)truth. He perhaps doesn't know, where is ANDERS exactly. But he knows, how he can contact HAWKE. Varric is a loyal friend, whatever happens. (Yes, Bianca is a good example.) When the Inquisitor back from the Fade, Varric write a letter to Hawke LIs, except Anders. This also can be interpreted as his anger toward him, but as a lie too. But Varric mentions in a banter, that Anders will follow Hawke. According to my scenario, Hawke and Anders will not return to Kirkwall. Not really excluded, that they will live near of Kirkwall. I think you are right. I also believe that part of him actually mourns for his friend a little - even if alive. It surprised me that Cole didn't comment on it. Something like: Cole: “He wishes you could forgive. It aches inside him. Laughter, that once brought joy, now piercing every memory. Words like “templar” never sour or bitter when spoken from your lips. It was a joy, a relief, but now it hurts. Regret of what has been lost. Let it go, Varric,” Varric: “Perhaps tomorrow, Kid,”
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Post by Catilina on Oct 13, 2017 20:33:29 GMT
Exactly so. Varric was Anders best friend in Kirkwall (except Hawke, ofc.), he really cares about him, but he loves Kirkwall and loves the peace as well. His tools rather the persuasion, bribe, lie – if possible, he avoids the violence. (Easy to be rival him with aggressive Hawke.) Anders ruined his city and caused a war.
Vivienne (about Anders): "What could he possibly have hoped to accomplish with such madness?" Varric: "Exactly what he got: a whole lot of innocent people killing each other."
So yes, Varric really angry at Anders, and feels betrayed. I don't think, that this part of the sentence: "...I don't want to know," is a lie. I suppose he really doesn't want to know, where is Anders. But possible the whole sentence is a (half)truth. He perhaps doesn't know, where is ANDERS exactly. But he knows, how he can contact HAWKE. Varric is a loyal friend, whatever happens. (Yes, Bianca is a good example.)
When the Inquisitor back from the Fade, Varric write a letter to Hawke LIs, except Anders. This also can be interpreted as his anger toward him, but as a lie too. But Varric mentions in a banter, that Anders will follow Hawke.
According to my scenario, Hawke and Anders will not return to Kirkwall. Not really excluded, that they will live near of Kirkwall. I think you are right. I also believe that part of him actually mourns for his friend a little - even if alive. It surprised me that Cole didn't comment on it. Something like: Cole: “He wishes you could forgive. It aches inside him. Laughter, that once brought joy, now piercing every memory. Words like “templar” never sour or bitter when spoken from your lips. It was a joy, a relief, but now it hurts. Regret of what has been lost. Let it go, Varric,” Varric: “Perhaps tomorrow, Kid,” Yes, would be nice. But hey! I'm glad, that even the happy end was an option with Anders!
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Post by phoray on Oct 13, 2017 21:31:01 GMT
So, Catilina I see the sacred name, Anders, has brought you to the thread.  I don't really get why they bothered to let Hawke become Viscount at all. Wasn't their original goal to make Hawke into a Shepard- Viscount Hawke can't go on adventures, that'd be like Udina leading the Normandy. It was just doomed to never be canon. Still, I don't know why the lack of a current Votable Title would prevent the Vael marriage. Haha, of course! Viscount Varric can go on adventures (Trespasser...) More like Knight Errant, where he enlisted help and sent it elsewhere. He was just the connection. In Trespasser, he'd just taken on the role and was there for the Duration of the Council and could assist as needed. Actually, now that you mention it, it is kinda weird for Varric to be there at all. Leader of Kirkwall, but what of the other Free Marcher Countries?
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Post by Catilina on Oct 13, 2017 21:47:19 GMT
Haha, of course! Viscount Varric can go on adventures (Trespasser...) More like Knight Errant, where he enlisted help and sent it elsewhere. He was just the connection. In Trespasser, he'd just taken on the role and was there for the Duration of the Council and could assist as needed. Actually, now that you mention it, it is kinda weird for Varric to be there at all. Leader of Kirkwall, but what of the other Free Marcher Countries? Hmm, I didn't think, that Varric was there only for Kirkwall... And Cole was there for representing the Fade? The whole Inner Circle was there.
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Post by shinary on Oct 14, 2017 0:49:20 GMT
Hmm, I didn't think, that Varric was there only for Kirkwall... And Cole was there for representing the Fade? The whole Inner Circle was there. Well in the light of the exalted council it would make sense for them to call in people to make testimonies. So the inner circle showing up for this would make sense - even if you are a Viscount. The Divine was a present figure in the negotiations after all. And Cole was there because Cole is awesome! He definitely needs more love 
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Post by Sah291 on Oct 14, 2017 13:59:02 GMT
It's vague enough that it doesn't say exactly how Hawke helped Varric rebuild...so we don't really have to imagine Hawke necessarily went to stay in Kirkwall permanently. Maybe they met up somewhere or Hawke visited and helped Varric with a problem that was important to the rebuild effort.
I think Varric took what Anders did very personal, because not only did he love Kirkwall and was invested in it...Varric was the one other person, besides Hawke, who Anders was really good friends with. Plus he blamed himself and felt responsible. We know that's partly why he wanted to stay and help the Inquisition. So part of that anger is his anger at Anders, and part of it is guilt and anger at himself I think. But I think if he could forgive a Hawke that sided with Anders, he would forgive Anders eventually. Especially if there was something Hawke and Anders could do to help make things right with the rebuilding.
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Post by gervaise21 on Oct 14, 2017 15:30:08 GMT
One of the oddest endings for me was when I tried having a mage Hawke support the Templars and then they all bowed the knee to me at the end. I had this vision in my mind of Fenris' head exploding (metaphorically) at the sight. It was like his worst nightmare, even though he was romancing me. So with that scenario it wouldn't have come as much of a surprise if the Templars thought better of it later.
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Post by Catilina on Oct 14, 2017 15:35:35 GMT
One of the oddest endings for me was when I tried having a mage Hawke support the Templars and then they all bowed the knee to me at the end. I had this vision in my mind of Fenris' head exploding (metaphorically) at the sight. It was like his worst nightmare, even though he was romancing me. So with that scenario it wouldn't have come as much of a surprise if the Templars thought better of it later. Hmm... they will kneel enough before Divine Vivienne, if the Inquisitor let her win... poor Fenris, a Magister Divine (I suppose he would feel great desire to join to the qun...)!
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