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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Nov 7, 2017 15:42:31 GMT
AAA gaming is incredibly high risk, and people have been warning for many years now that consumers will start to bear the cost of some of that risk. Of course they can just whack out Madden every year and 3 more Sims expansion for some surefire dosh but still ... The scummy practices (like yearly sport games and high priced expansions) will help fund the high risk games. Take Activision for example, a lot of their income comes from World of Warcraft (which can die in a fire) but the profit of that game probably helped fund Destiny, which cost well over 100 million dollars to fully develop. Remember when Activision's boss came out and said they were spending half a billion dollars on developing and marketing the Destiny franchise (the whole franchise not just the first game)? That's a lot of money and Activision hopes it will help sure up falling revenue. Awesome right? But what happens if it had failed? Those are incredibly high stakes they're gambling with. Not all that different from Hollywood in many respects. But an AAA game seems to be bigger relative to its publisher than a big film is relative to its studio. And the vid does make the point that MTs, etc., are to gaming what streaming and cable are to movies. The weird thing about the vid is that it doesn't actually make the case the title says he's making. He's actually making a pretty good case for doing MTs as long as AAA budgets stay in the current space. The problem with sticking with risky strategies is that sooner or later you roll snake-eyes and you're done. The alternative strategy of releasing many smaller games is viable too, but it would require a lot of rethinking and restructuring, and it's not clear that gamers would like that better. (There's a reason we're seeing one Thor: Ragnarok instead of 40 Get Outs this month.) Big films spread the risk by getting what effectively are investors to chip in on top of the studio money (or in place of the studio money, for an indie film) -- that's one of the things that all those producers in the credits do, find banks or people to invest in the project or loan money to the project. AAA games don't have that financing model, so the publisher and the shareholders bear the risk. Maybe that ought to change. And yes I agree the title is a bit clickbaity and doesn't really summarize the point being made, which is that it's greed and Wall Street (which is greed spelled differently) that's driving alternative monetization.
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Nov 7, 2017 16:00:32 GMT
Here is a piece AskAGameDev wrote about potential profits. The $30 fee is possible if they are not using a licensed IP such as Star Wars, so there is a good chance with Mass Effect and what BioWare creates EA does make about $30 off a physical sale. Here is the article LinkI will include another piece where he talks about the unsustainability of the current AAA market and touches on the biggest cost of development the labor LinkAsk a Game Dev actually recently wrote about this video linkBasically, they point out while the costs for publishers have gone down, they are making far fewer games now. The no. of games created has diminished at a rate much greater than the cost. So, basically games are still expensive to make and Publishers seem to be taking less risks with them Nice! Great to have both sides of the story. Tarmack did mention that the number of games made per year is declining, but the additional info about the concentration of revenue into hits and near hits is very interesting. Plus, the point that smoothing out the revenue curve helps devs keep their jobs is an aspect I hadn't considered, but makes perfect sense. So it's not just greed, it's also a bit of stability as well. But, I have to think that this concentration of risk into a small number of games is bad for everyone, particularly players. It works against innovation. It forces games to move to the center, avoid niches, and go for the least common denominator in audience appeal. Pretty much the same reason why all blockbuster films all Michael Bay style: explosions, car chases, a bit of T&A, and marquee talent. If 30% of your revenue comes from 1 game out of 50, you're not going to want to take any artsy-fartsy risks with that game and give gamers what you think they want.
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Post by rras1994 on Nov 7, 2017 16:15:39 GMT
Ask a Game Dev actually recently wrote about this video linkBasically, they point out while the costs for publishers have gone down, they are making far fewer games now. The no. of games created has diminished at a rate much greater than the cost. So, basically games are still expensive to make and Publishers seem to be taking less risks with them Nice! Great to have both sides of the story. Tarmack did mention that the number of games made per year is declining, but the additional info about the concentration of revenue into hits and near hits is very interesting. Plus, the point that smoothing out the revenue curve helps devs keep their jobs is an aspect I hadn't considered, but makes perfect sense. So it's not just greed, it's also a bit of stability as well. But, I have to think that this concentration of risk into a small number of games is bad for everyone, particularly players. It works against innovation. It forces games to move to the center, avoid niches, and go for the least common denominator in audience appeal. Pretty much the same reason why all blockbuster films all Michael Bay style: explosions, car chases, a bit of T&A, and marquee talent. If 30% of your revenue comes from 1 game out of 50, you're not going to want to take any artsy-fartsy risks with that game and give gamers what you think they want. In the AAA space fewer games appear to be coming out however there does appear to be more games coming out in the Indie space (though the majority won't make money), so I think new ideas and innoviations will eventually trickle up, just that the big AAA games won't likely take the risk first (not surprising given the large amounts of money involved), they'll probably see what works , then do their own take on it. I'd also note that while fewer games are coming out, a game's support are lasting a lot longer and is almost expected at this point i.e MEA no DLC backlash- could anyone have predicted that 5 years ago? It lets developers try new things and learn what works in a DLC, which has less risk then a full new game. This again can drive development and innovation. I think that it's not that there will be less innovation, more that it will come in new and different ways. I also think that the new stability for jobs that has come about is fantastic. Even in the last few closurers for EA, they absorbed all the Motreal jobs into Motive and tried to find other jobs in other studios for Visceral. It used to be that most developers were let go right away after a game released, whether sucessful or not. A greater increase in job security is not something to be sniffed at and I think it has really been led byt the development of DLCs and microtransactions.
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Post by alanc9 on Nov 7, 2017 16:34:54 GMT
Can someone give me a workable definition of "greed" in this context? A business is supposed to earn profit, after all. Where's the line, and how and why is it drawn?
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Post by goishen on Nov 7, 2017 17:46:58 GMT
Can someone give me a workable definition of "greed" in this context? A business is supposed to earn profit, after all. Where's the line, and how and why is it drawn? Even if someone provided a reasonable explanation, you would simply dismiss it for for containing logic which goes above and beyond your simplistic logic. Example : An unreasonable sum of money extracted from someone or something. "Oh, I'm sorry that a company wants to make a profit!" Meh. I'm done with you.
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Nov 7, 2017 23:33:11 GMT
Can someone give me a workable definition of "greed" in this context? A business is supposed to earn profit, after all. Where's the line, and how and why is it drawn? Ask A Dev mentioned predatory and negative practices. I’d say targeting children with in-app purchases is predatory. Or any form of pay 2 win. That’s a good working definition of greed for me. There is assuredly a broad gray area where reasonable people may disagree whether a particular form of alternative monetizing is predatory, but that doesn’t mean we can’t define it and point at egregious examples.
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Post by alanc9 on Nov 8, 2017 1:26:55 GMT
Can someone give me a workable definition of "greed" in this context? A business is supposed to earn profit, after all. Where's the line, and how and why is it drawn? Even if someone provided a reasonable explanation, you would simply dismiss it for for containing logic which goes above and beyond your simplistic logic. Example : An unreasonable sum of money extracted from someone or something. "Oh, I'm sorry that a company wants to make a profit!" Meh. I'm done with you. Suits me fine. I like arguing with people, but you don't seem to be able to make posts that are coherent enough to actually argue with.
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Post by alanc9 on Nov 8, 2017 1:34:59 GMT
Can someone give me a workable definition of "greed" in this context? A business is supposed to earn profit, after all. Where's the line, and how and why is it drawn? Ask A Dev mentioned predatory and negative practices. I’d say targeting children with in-app purchases is predatory. Or any form of pay 2 win. That’s a good working definition of greed for me. There is assuredly a broad gray area where reasonable people may disagree whether a particular form of alternative monetizing is predatory, but that doesn’t mean we can’t define it and point at egregious examples. Yeah, we can work with those. (While I'm not convinced as a matter of abstract ethics that pay-to-win is actually different from grind-to-win, the community of players seems to have a clear position on that.)
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Post by Deleted on Nov 8, 2017 2:11:49 GMT
Can someone give me a workable definition of "greed" in this context? A business is supposed to earn profit, after all. Where's the line, and how and why is it drawn? I don't see how it's very relevant here in a market with competition that can undercut you. If a pub doesn't offer appealing games with good value then it's going to hurt them.
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Post by azarhal on Nov 8, 2017 12:38:01 GMT
Can someone give me a workable definition of "greed" in this context? A business is supposed to earn profit, after all. Where's the line, and how and why is it drawn? I don't see how it's very relevant here in a market with competition that can undercut you. If a pub doesn't offer appealing games with good value then it's going to hurt them. I believe alanc9 was asking the question because people have been accusing publishers of being greedy (mostly in relation with lootbox and microtransactions).
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Nov 8, 2017 21:20:09 GMT
Ask A Dev mentioned predatory and negative practices. I’d say targeting children with in-app purchases is predatory. Or any form of pay 2 win. That’s a good working definition of greed for me. There is assuredly a broad gray area where reasonable people may disagree whether a particular form of alternative monetizing is predatory, but that doesn’t mean we can’t define it and point at egregious examples. Yeah, we can work with those. (While I'm not convinced as a matter of abstract ethics that pay-to-win is actually different from grind-to-win, the community of players seems to have a clear position on that.) They differ by intention. Grind-to-win is often the result of lazy or inept game design. It's hard to come up with an ethical intention, good or evil, that would explain egregious grind-to-win. Maybe PR/marketing value if the dev can boast that the average player spends 100+ hours in the game? Seems pretty tenuous. Whereas with pay-to-win, it's easy to see that greed is the intention. Players that play competitive games like to win, and if winning is easier by forking over $$$, shut up and take my money. Sure, I could see an argument for that being simple capitalism, providing something people want to buy, but since the need for the "product" was contrived by the structure of the game itself, it becomes shady.
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Post by river82 on Nov 8, 2017 21:25:45 GMT
Considering pay to win is a mechanic often attached to free to play games, this monetary practice is how they recoup costs. To call the practice as a whole "greedy" is incorrect, unless you just want stuff to play completely for free.
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Post by goishen on Nov 9, 2017 13:03:23 GMT
Really? Tell that to Guild Wars 2, who are lining their pockets with cash selling purely cosmetic stuff.
But yeh, ya know, whatever. It's not as much as EA, so EA wins.
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Post by river82 on Nov 9, 2017 13:20:51 GMT
Really? Tell that to Guild Wars 2, who are lining their pockets with cash selling purely cosmetic stuff. But yeh, ya know, whatever. It's not as much as EA, so EA wins. Guild Wars 2 isn't free to play, so they also make money from game purchases.
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Post by goishen on Nov 9, 2017 13:26:03 GMT
Really? Tell that to Guild Wars 2, who are lining their pockets with cash selling purely cosmetic stuff. But yeh, ya know, whatever. It's not as much as EA, so EA wins. Guild Wars 2 isn't free to pay, so they also make money from game purchases. Uhhh, yes. It is. It is most definitely free to "pay". And now I'll take on what you really meant. Uhhh, yes it is. It is free to play, excluding the original box cost. And those purchases are purely cosmetic. There are no P2W things in the game.
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Post by mmoblitz on Nov 9, 2017 13:29:58 GMT
I asked my cousin who has been a software engineer for 15+ yrs in the gaming industry about MT in games that aren't F2P. His thoughts were kind of cryptic on it. He said, games that are put out by the bigger publishers have to turn a profit for their shareholders. They often try to make games that appeal to the largest audience with the most disposable income. This often drives up the cost of the games and in order to keep box prices at around 60 USD, they need added income to make the profit levels for investors.
It wouldn't be needed if the larger studios would make smaller, more focused games. This would lower costs, give you a better more focused game, and cut your production time down. On the flip-side, it will lower your player base to only those who like that particular type of game. He thinks you will be seeing more of the industry going that way. More mid to small studios that create smaller games with more focus on one thing instead of trying to please everyone. The larger studios will follow suit, just may take awhile longer.
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Post by river82 on Nov 9, 2017 13:33:47 GMT
Guild Wars 2 isn't free to pay, so they also make money from game purchases. Uhhh, yes. It is. It is most definitely free to "pay". And now I'll take on what you really meant. Uhhh, yes it is. It is free to play, excluding the original box cost. And those purchases are purely cosmetic. There are no P2W things in the game. Free to Play games are those where you can play significant amounts of the game without paying. Guild Wars doesn't qualify because to play you need to buy the box set, which is paying and therefore not free. Free to play (F2P) refers to a business model for online games in which the game designers do not charge the user or player in order to join the game. Instead, they hope to bring in revenue from advertisements or in-game sales, such as payment for upgrades, special abilities, special items, and expansion packs.www.techopedia.com/definition/27039/free-to-play-f2pPay to Win is used often by free to play games (not Guild Wars) because they don't earn any money from people buying the game and they tend to require a stable and reliable stream of income.
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Post by azarhal on Nov 9, 2017 13:42:50 GMT
Uhhh, yes. It is. It is most definitely free to "pay". And now I'll take on what you really meant. Uhhh, yes it is. It is free to play, excluding the original box cost. And those purchases are purely cosmetic. There are no P2W things in the game. Free to Play games are those where you can play significant amounts of the game without paying. Guild Wars doesn't qualify because to play you need to buy the box set, which is paying and therefore not free. Since Heart of Thorn release, the pre-HOT content of GW2 is F2P. You don't need to buy anything to play it unless you want access to HoT or Path of Fire content/features.
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Post by river82 on Nov 9, 2017 13:45:27 GMT
Free to Play games are those where you can play significant amounts of the game without paying. Guild Wars doesn't qualify because to play you need to buy the box set, which is paying and therefore not free. Since Heart of Thorn release, the pre-HOT content of GW2 is F2P. You don't need to buy anything to play it unless you want access to HoT or Path of Fire content/features. Which is 3 years that ArenaNet has been able to rely on revenue from game sales. F2P games (that have always been F2P) often employ P2W because they don't rely on game sales for any period of time.
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Post by goishen on Nov 9, 2017 13:50:25 GMT
Uh-huh. And you only knocked down one third of my post, and barely knocked it over at that.
1. How is GW2 still making fuck tons of cash off'a selling purely cosmetic shit, if what you claim is true. That costs are going up, that shit is getting waaaay too expensive.
2. No, P2W is all you hear about. You don't hear about other games, because other games, while they are making money hand over fist don't have the money for Kate Upton's (or whoever the hell that was) rack to be on television to promote their game. Clash of Cans is what I called it.
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Post by river82 on Nov 9, 2017 13:58:57 GMT
Uh-huh. And you only knocked down one third of my post, and barely knocked it over at that. 1. How is GW2 still making fuck tons of cash off'a selling purely cosmetic shit, if what you claim is true. That costs are going up, that shit is getting waaaay too expensive. 2. No, P2W is all you hear about. You don't hear about other games, because other games, while they are making money hand over fist don't have the money for Kate Upton's (or whoever the hell that was) rack to be on television to promote their game. Clash of Cans is what I called it. 1 - Profits are declining. You've never actually showed how they've made "shit tons of cash off purely cosmetic shit". Whenever they release an expansion their financials are good but otherwise Guild Wars is in decline. 2 - I have no idea what you're trying to say here. For real (I'm not joking.)
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Post by goishen on Nov 9, 2017 14:07:24 GMT
Dude, you are at worst a troll and at best an asshat.
Of course it's declining. It's over five years old. And what I'm trying to say is that a lot of very negative voices come out when a game is bad, you hardly ever hear about any of the good ones.
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Post by river82 on Nov 9, 2017 14:11:41 GMT
Dude, you are at worst a troll and at best an asshat. Of course it's declining. It's over five years old. And what I'm trying to say is that a lot of very negative voices come out when a game is bad, you hardly ever hear about any of the good ones. Guild Wars 2 was the fastest selling MMO in existence (or so they tout.) They sold 5 million boxed copies before going F2P, they sold a shitload of expansion sets (each time causing a giant bump in their financials.) Without these revenue streams coming in, their microtransaction sales by themselves are a little underwhelming. To put it another way sure, Guild Wars 2 made a shit ton of cash, but it did it on the back of strong game sales as well as their microtransactions. Nowhere have I seen any evidence (not from you either) that gem sales alone pulls in shit tons of cash. It's substantial, but if they were fully F2P I doubt it'd sustain them. If you can show me I'm wrong please do, I'm all for reading posts backed with strong statistics and facts that challenges my worldview.
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Post by goishen on Nov 9, 2017 14:16:09 GMT
Dude, you are at worst a troll and at best an asshat. Of course it's declining. It's over five years old. And what I'm trying to say is that a lot of very negative voices come out when a game is bad, you hardly ever hear about any of the good ones. Guild Wars 2 was the fastest selling MMO in existence (or so they tout.) They sold 5 million boxed copies before going F2P, they sold a shitload of expansion sets (each time causing a giant bump in their financials.) Without these revenue streams coming in, their microtransaction sales by themselves are a little underwhelming. To put it another way sure, Guild Wars 2 made a shit ton of cash, but it did it on the back of strong game sales as well as their microtransactions. Nowhere have I seen any evidence (not from you either) that gem sales alone pulls in shit tons of cash. It's substantial, but if they were fully F2P I doubt it'd sustain them. If you can show me I'm wrong please do, I'm all for reading posts backed with strong statistics and facts that challenges my worldview. With what "strong statistics" are you talking about? Conjecture?
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Post by river82 on Nov 9, 2017 14:19:54 GMT
Guild Wars 2 was the fastest selling MMO in existence (or so they tout.) They sold 5 million boxed copies before going F2P, they sold a shitload of expansion sets (each time causing a giant bump in their financials.) Without these revenue streams coming in, their microtransaction sales by themselves are a little underwhelming. To put it another way sure, Guild Wars 2 made a shit ton of cash, but it did it on the back of strong game sales as well as their microtransactions. Nowhere have I seen any evidence (not from you either) that gem sales alone pulls in shit tons of cash. It's substantial, but if they were fully F2P I doubt it'd sustain them. If you can show me I'm wrong please do, I'm all for reading posts backed with strong statistics and facts that challenges my worldview. With what "strong statistics" are you talking about? Conjecture? Hmmm, I was actually implying that it's about time you start putting actual substance in your posts instead of just posting theories. Theories are nice and fun to read sure, but they lack substance.
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