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Post by goishen on Nov 6, 2017 14:23:02 GMT
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N6
Just a flip of the coin.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by Sanunes on Nov 6, 2017 16:06:43 GMT
Watched the first minute and couldn't take his rambling and felt like I forgot to put on my tinfoil hat.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 6, 2017 16:12:22 GMT
Considering how budgets for AAA titles continue to bloat into perpetuity, I can't take a word this guys says seriously. He just reinforces the typical gamer-logic of "said company is greedy" without any substantial data to back him up.
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Post by alanc9 on Nov 6, 2017 16:14:52 GMT
As usual, making this a video rather than an essay doesn't do anything useful.
Edit: actually, I suppose covering up the writer's disorganised thought processes might have been useful, for him.
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Post by Son of Dorn on Nov 6, 2017 16:15:10 GMT
Yeah. I don't need to watch the video to know that guy is talking out of his backside.
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Post by goishen on Nov 6, 2017 16:22:26 GMT
Hah.
Y'all need to take up whittling. Oh, that's right, I forgot, making wood is too expensive.
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Atemporal Vanguardian-Debugger
N6
At sunrise there is the sunset.
To find the secrets of the universe: Think in terms of energy, frequency & VIBRATION -Nikola Tesla
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Shattered Steel, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
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PSN: No
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To find the secrets of the universe: Think in terms of energy, frequency & VIBRATION -Nikola Tesla
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Post by Atemporal Vanguardian-Debugger on Nov 6, 2017 16:25:23 GMT
Considering how budgets for AAA titles continue to bloat into perpetuity, I can't take a word this guys says seriously. He just reinforces the typical gamer-logic of "said company is greedy" without any substantial data to back him up. Watched the first minute and couldn't take his rambling and felt like I forgot to put on my tinfoil hat. I bared with it and watched the whole video... It seems that the video is counter-intuitive to the title. Should have been titled: "Games are not to expensive to produce -the actual disk production is what is expensive" -but ...details. *Note: Actual disk production would equate to manufacturing. Or more accurately should have been called: "A digital distribution and micro transaction shove down your throat want ad." Edit: I do disagree about being neutral with these two things... I am the hostile witness who is sitting on the nuke button.
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Atemporal Vanguardian-Debugger
N6
At sunrise there is the sunset.
To find the secrets of the universe: Think in terms of energy, frequency & VIBRATION -Nikola Tesla
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Shattered Steel, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
Origin: NO. NEVER. AGAIN.
XBL Gamertag: No.
PSN: No
Posts: 5,220 Likes: 5,079
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Post by Atemporal Vanguardian-Debugger on Nov 6, 2017 16:44:23 GMT
As usual, making this a video rather than an essay doesn't do anything useful. Edit: actually, I suppose covering up the writer's disorganised thought processes might have been useful, for him. Or maybe he thinks in the reverse order to way most people think. I know that feeling all to well -I have the tenacity to speak backwards. Sometimes I find I am talking like that the green imp from star wars without trying. It take conscious effort to speak or even type in normal fashion that most understand... -if they even can. Yeah. I don't need to watch the video to know that guy is talking out of his backside. Wow. Never knew that was physically possible... disgusting but still news to me. Hah. Y'all need to take up whittling. Oh, that's right, I forgot, making wood is too expensive. It can be... especially if you break the law to get it on a forest preserve... at least via my cousins' info.
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N6
Just a flip of the coin.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Prime Posts: 4392
Prime Likes: 882
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Post by Sanunes on Nov 6, 2017 16:48:21 GMT
Considering how budgets for AAA titles continue to bloat into perpetuity, I can't take a word this guys says seriously. He just reinforces the typical gamer-logic of "said company is greedy" without any substantial data to back him up. Watched the first minute and couldn't take his rambling and felt like I forgot to put on my tinfoil hat. I bared with it and watched the whole video... It seems that the video is counter-intuitive to the title. Should have been titled: "Games are not to expensive to produce -the actual disk production is what is expensive" -but ...details. *Note: Actual disk production would equate to manufacturing. Or more accurately should have been called: "A digital distribution and micro transaction shove down your throat want ad." Edit: I do disagree about being neutral with these two things... I am the hostile witness who is sitting on the nuke button. Interesting breakdown, but still there isn't a silver bullet for the problem unless publishers and developers start ignoring what the communities are saying they want in games and just make the best game they can in a limited budget. Jason Schreier made a post about the gaming industry being unsustainable with the closure of Runic Studios which to me was a mid-range studio that made Torchlight. I don't always agree with him, but that argument seems to be a direct counter to this video.
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Atemporal Vanguardian-Debugger
N6
At sunrise there is the sunset.
To find the secrets of the universe: Think in terms of energy, frequency & VIBRATION -Nikola Tesla
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Shattered Steel, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
Origin: NO. NEVER. AGAIN.
XBL Gamertag: No.
PSN: No
Posts: 5,220 Likes: 5,079
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Post by Atemporal Vanguardian-Debugger on Nov 6, 2017 16:52:52 GMT
I bared with it and watched the whole video... It seems that the video is counter-intuitive to the title. Should have been titled: "Games are not to expensive to produce -the actual disk production is what is expensive" -but ...details. *Note: Actual disk production would equate to manufacturing. Or more accurately should have been called: "A digital distribution and micro transaction shove down your throat want ad." Edit: I do disagree about being neutral with these two things... I am the hostile witness who is sitting on the nuke button. Interesting breakdown, but still there isn't a silver bullet for the problem unless publishers and developers start ignoring what the communities are saying they want in games and just make the best game they can in a limited budget. Jason Schreier made a post about the gaming industry being unsustainable with the closure of Runic Studios which to me was a mid-range studio that made Torchlight. I don't always agree with him, but that argument seems to be a direct counter to this video. Agreed. The more the merrier. The more the data the less the bias.
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Post by Son of Dorn on Nov 6, 2017 16:54:53 GMT
As usual, making this a video rather than an essay doesn't do anything useful. Edit: actually, I suppose covering up the writer's disorganised thought processes might have been useful, for him. Or maybe he thinks in the reverse order to way most people think. I know that feeling all to well -I have the tenacity to speak backwards. Sometimes I find I am talking like that the green imp from star wars without trying. It take conscious effort to speak or even type in normal fashion that most understand... -if they even can. Yeah. I don't need to watch the video to know that guy is talking out of his backside. Wow. Never knew that was physically possible... disgusting but still news to me. Hah. Y'all need to take up whittling. Oh, that's right, I forgot, making wood is too expensive. It can be... especially if you break the law to get it on a forest preserve... at least via my cousins' info. Then you have not Donald Trump speak then.
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Post by Cyonan on Nov 6, 2017 17:03:57 GMT
I can tell 2 minutes into this video: The title is actually a bit misleading.
The argument he's presenting here isn't that games aren't too expensive but rather than adding micro-transactions, a bunch of DLC, season pass, etc. and everything is not required in order for the industry to stay alive.
He uses public information about the financials from major publishers to try and show that, once accounting for inflation, the cost of physical production(making the box, dvd, etc.) of games has gone down as expected because of digital distribution, the cost of developing a game has remained pretty stable but gone up slightly, and the money being made has also remained pretty stable but is trending upward.
However what they've done is reduced the overall number of games being released in favour of focusing on a small number of franchises because sequels tend to be more consistent in sales than new IP, and business loves consistency in profits.
Personally I don't currently have the time to verify that his math on the financials over the last decade for EA, Ubisoft, and Activision are spot on but I agree with the general idea that EA didn't put loot boxes in ME:A MP and other micro-transactions in other games because the games couldn't possibly turn a profit without them.
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Post by Pounce de León on Nov 6, 2017 17:05:23 GMT
"Video games are too expensive" is the one of the silliest and most stupid arguments that are pulled from somebody's ass whenever something is required for trying to fabricate unbased claims as facts.
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Atemporal Vanguardian-Debugger
N6
At sunrise there is the sunset.
To find the secrets of the universe: Think in terms of energy, frequency & VIBRATION -Nikola Tesla
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Shattered Steel, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
Origin: NO. NEVER. AGAIN.
XBL Gamertag: No.
PSN: No
Posts: 5,220 Likes: 5,079
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At sunrise there is the sunset.
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To find the secrets of the universe: Think in terms of energy, frequency & VIBRATION -Nikola Tesla
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Post by Atemporal Vanguardian-Debugger on Nov 6, 2017 17:07:58 GMT
Or maybe he thinks in the reverse order to way most people think. I know that feeling all to well -I have the tenacity to speak backwards. Sometimes I find I am talking like that the green imp from star wars without trying. It take conscious effort to speak or even type in normal fashion that most understand... -if they even can. Wow. Never knew that was physically possible... disgusting but still news to me. It can be... especially if you break the law to get it on a forest preserve... at least via my cousins' info. Then you have not heard Donald Trump speak then. No. And nor do I care whatever politicians say - no matter the side. They are all greedy hacks and hasbeen wanna-bee people of importance. So again no I have not listened to a president since Reagan. "Video games are too expensive" is the one of the silliest and most stupid arguments that are pulled from somebody's ass whenever something is required for trying to fabricate unbased claims as facts. No. I got one worse than that but why go back to 2012...it is just an artistic vision.
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Post by Son of Dorn on Nov 6, 2017 17:12:07 GMT
Then you have not heard Donald Trump speak then. No. And nor do I care whatever politicians say - no matter the side. They are all greedy hacks and hasbeen wanna-bee people of importance. So again no I have not listened to a president since Reagan. "Video games are too expensive" is the one of the silliest and most stupid arguments that are pulled from somebody's ass whenever something is required for trying to fabricate unbased claims as facts. No. I got one worse than that but why go back to 2012... You'll get no argument from me.
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Sanunes
N6
Just a flip of the coin.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Prime Posts: 4392
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Post by Sanunes on Nov 6, 2017 17:27:13 GMT
I can tell 2 minutes into this video: The title is actually a bit misleading. The argument he's presenting here isn't that games aren't too expensive but rather than adding micro-transactions, a bunch of DLC, season pass, etc. and everything is not required in order for the industry to stay alive. He uses public information about the financials from major publishers to try and show that, once accounting for inflation, the cost of physical production(making the box, dvd, etc.) of games has gone down as expected because of digital distribution, the cost of developing a game has remained pretty stable but gone up slightly, and the money being made has also remained pretty stable but is trending upward. However what they've done is reduced the overall number of games being released in favour of focusing on a small number of franchises because sequels tend to be more consistent in sales than new IP, and business loves consistency in profits. Personally I don't currently have the time to verify that his math on the financials over the last decade for EA, Ubisoft, and Activision are spot on but I agree with the general idea that EA didn't put loot boxes in ME:A MP and other micro-transactions in other games because the games couldn't possibly turn a profit without them. Sounds like I still disagree with his premise, but that is the joys of living where we do. I can respect that he feels that way, but I am allowed to disagree with his point of view.
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Post by alanc9 on Nov 6, 2017 17:35:53 GMT
Do people actually make the "microtransactions are required" argument often? I can't recall seeing it much myself. Mostly I see people either making anti-MT arguments, arguing that game companies are allowed to charge whatever the market will bear for anything that will sell so MT don't matter, or arguing that since MT subsidize the parts of the games they personally use MT are actually a good thing.
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Post by goishen on Nov 6, 2017 17:54:34 GMT
No, but they're making neutral arguments like "They really don't affect the game play". The companies themselves are making the arguments that games are too expensive. We're just swallowing that line of bullshit and accepting it.
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Post by Cyonan on Nov 6, 2017 17:58:08 GMT
Do people actually make the "microtransactions are required" argument often? I can't recall seeing it much myself. Mostly I see people either making anti-MT arguments, arguing that game companies are allowed to charge whatever the market will bear for anything that will sell so MT don't matter, or arguing that since MT subsidize the parts of the games they personally use MT are actually a good thing. I rarely ever see it worded like that, but it's often included in the argument that games have cost $60 USD for as long as most of us can remember and the belief that the industry couldn't sustain itself without putting all these extra revenue streams in games. To be fair I think in some cases it can help. Titanfall 2 for example has gotten quite a bit of content added to the game that has been paid for by the game's cosmetic micro-transactions and even as somebody who plays it without spending anything on MTs I still get a good variety of customization options and progression doesn't feel like it's been blatantly designed around it. Though when EA wants to shove every practice into Battlefront 2, I'm never going to buy that it's because the game couldn't be profitable otherwise.
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Post by Qui-Gon GlenN7 on Nov 6, 2017 18:03:52 GMT
Manufacturing discs costs money. Marketing costs way more, and the games would sell anyway.
Marketing of video games has tried to universalize gaming as a past-time everyone enjoys. That is simply not the case, never will be, and they market primarily to deaf-ears. The marketing lands on the salivating fans, but they knew more about the game before they saw the marketing.
It, like the pharmaceutical industry, is in the business of selling shit people don't want or need to them and convincing them that is a good thing. Unfortunately, most of the sheep baah and chew on the grass.
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Post by goishen on Nov 6, 2017 18:10:31 GMT
I think that they are trying to pull in the dude-bro market. The typical jock who loves blowing shit up, who thinks gaming is for (their word, not mine) fags. I do accept that the gaming industry has become like the pharmaceutical industry though. Some people love games, some people don't. Watching TWD last night, you'd be honestly amazed at how many XBox and promotional advertisements I saw for games. It was crazy shit.
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Scathane
N4
Space Pirate
🚀🥃🏴☠
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Dragon Age The Veilguard
Origin: Scathane
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Post by Scathane on Nov 6, 2017 18:42:53 GMT
Interesting video. Thx for the linkage, goishen!
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Post by river82 on Nov 6, 2017 20:31:01 GMT
The guy is wrong. Every time a new console generation arrives Japanese game devs lament that the size of their development team will have to skyrocket (better art means more people, HD art means more people, more people means more money.) A game dev working in the PS2 era said team sizes were double the size of the PS1 era, when it went to the PS3 era he said team size doubled again. Shadows and lighting cost money, believable facial animations cost money. "I've done some calculations that say there were about 125 teams in the industry worldwide working on what I'd call a AAA game on a console, and that was 7 or 8 years ago. That number today is well south of 30; probably in the 25 range.
"What's interesting is that, if you look at the composition of those teams, the numbers are exactly the same: those 125 teams became 25; the size of the teams increased by a factor of four."
Hilleman claimed the shift to fewer, larger developers "has everything to do with the standard definition to HD change".
He added: "If you look at the math, that change is about content - richly about content - and as we evolved, our costs went substantially up. And the number of people on teams with that kind of vision went up by necessity."web.archive.org/web/20130708122249/http://www.computerandvideogames.com/417770/triple-a-console-studios-declined-by-80-this-gen-says-ea-exec/Not adjusting for the cost of inflation, in 2004 Halo2 cost under 20 million dollars to develop. Destiny, released just a few years ago, according to a leaked contract had a development and marketing budget of 140 million (although the figure 500 million gets bandied about, I find that suspicious.) Witcher 3 cost 70 million and keep in mind CDPR is reported to employ slave labour. Baldur's Gate IIRC had a budget of a few million. When the guy says "costs of video game development has gone up slightly" that's the clue which says he has no idea what he's talking about.
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Post by goishen on Nov 6, 2017 21:27:16 GMT
A game dev working in the PS2 era said team sizes were double the size of the PS1 era, when it went to the PS3 era he said team size doubled again. Shadows and lighting cost money, believable facial animations cost money. You're assuming the the market stayed the same size. It most definitely did not. But whatever man. We can go about bandying back and forth numbers and what success and failure means. Whether or a game was a financial success or a social failure. Or vice versa. Oh also, this : Witcher 3 cost 70 million and keep in mind CDPR is reported to employ slave labour. Yah, no. Depressed economy aside, they don't have slaves.
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linksocarina
N5
Always teacher, sometimes writer
Teaching Mode Activated
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
PSN: LinksOcarina
Posts: 3,186 Likes: 4,072
inherit
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Teaching Mode Activated
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Post by linksocarina on Nov 6, 2017 21:47:01 GMT
And he is incorrect in that assessment through various avenues.
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